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ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 09:21 AM Jan 2019

A friend who teaches federal tax law explained to me how marginal tax rates work

"Agree or disagree with AOC about preferred tax rates on millions a year of income, understanding marginal tax rates is critical. And what I've found from teaching federal income tax to law students is that many many many smart people don't understand the concept.

What people think: if the marginal tax rate on income of, say, $1m/year of income is 50%, a single taxpayer making $2,000,000 of income (after retirement savings and other personalized deductions) has a tax bill $1,000,000.

This isn't right.
Instead, the first $12,200 is tax-free as the "standard deduction". The next $9,700--so up to $21,900 in income--is taxed at 0%. So the tax bill on up to $21,900 *for everyone* is $0.

From $21,901-$51,675, the marginal tax rate *for everyone* is 12%. So someone making $51,675 owes $3,573 total in federal income tax (again: 0% ($0) on the first $21,900 + 12% on the next $29,775 ($3,573) = $3,573).

From $51,676-$96,400, the marginal tax rate is 22%. So the total tax bill for someone making $96,400 is $13,412.50 ($0+$3,573+$9,839.50).

From $96,401-$172,925, the marginal tax rate is 24%. The total tax bill for someone making $172,925 is $31,778.26 ($0+$3,573+$9,839.50+$18,365.76).

For income between $172,926-$216,300, the marginal tax rate is 32% so the total tax bill for someone making $216,300 is $45,657.94 ($0+ $3,573+ $9,839.50+ $18,365.76+ $13,879.68).

For $216,301-$522,500, the marginal tax rate is 35%. The total tax bill for someone making $522,500 in a year? $152,827.59 ($0+ $3,573+ $9,839.50+ $18,365.76+ $13,879.68 + $107,169.65).

For amounts above $522,500, the marginal tax rate is 37%. So our hypothetical taxpayer with $2,000,000 in taxable income pays $699,502.59 ($0+ $3,573+ $9,839.50+ $18,365.76+ $13,879.68 + $107,169.65 + $546,675) in federal income tax currently.

Under the hypothesized new highest marginal rate of 50%, this taxpayer would pay $829,502.59 in tax ($0+ $3,573+ $9,839.50+ $18,365.76+ $13,879.68 + $107,169.65 + $176,675 + $500,000) in federal income tax. No, it's not a small bill. But it is $170,000 LESS THAN if the effect of a 50% marginal rate at $1m was in fact a 50% tax on income.

Why have a progressive tax structure like this instead of a flat tax? Because minimum costs for food, housing, and clothes--the bare necessities--are the same whether you earn $21,900 or $2,000,000 per year and we (as a society) believe people should be able to earn the funds to pay for these things without contributing to the general federal coffers. (Keep in mind these people still pay social security tax, sales tax, property tax, and often state income tax.) Above that, the importance of each dollar of income to sustaining life goes down: for the person making $21,900 a year, an extra $1000 is A LOT of money in terms of the lifestyle difference it makes. For the person earning $1,000,000, it is almost literally nothing.

You can disagree with the concepts or with the appropriate numbers, or with the idea that people who have more (and get more from the government, in terms of protection for private property and access to interstate travel, for example--since it's hard to do a vacation on $21,900/year) should pay in at a higher rate, but understanding the effect of marginal tax rates is the basis for having an educated opinion on it all."
.................................................................................................................

The practical upshot is to understand that a 50% marginal federal income tax rate on the very wealthy will not require that they write a check to the IRS for half their income, whether one is in favor of a 50% marginal tax or against.

28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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A friend who teaches federal tax law explained to me how marginal tax rates work (Original Post) ehrnst Jan 2019 OP
Nice analysis! Beakybird Jan 2019 #1
RW likes Smith's "Invisible Hand" yet later states capitalism needs a heavily tiered tax system. TheBlackAdder Jan 2019 #2
Thanks for remembering that! ewagner Jan 2019 #8
Thanks for explaining that Farmer-Rick Jan 2019 #3
Thanks for Two Reaons Roy Rolling Jan 2019 #4
They have ways to not pay taxes anyway. watoos Jan 2019 #5
Add to this the opportunity for credits and additional deductions cbdo2007 Jan 2019 #6
It drives me insane about how most people don't understand this Dopers_Greed Jan 2019 #7
Most people (including news people) don't understand immigration laws marybourg Jan 2019 #9
How many people are making 7 figures in wage income? Major Nikon Jan 2019 #10
It does make me crazy that reasonably intelligent people don't get this. PoindexterOglethorpe Jan 2019 #11
I can't tell you how much I appreciate this post. LittleGirl Jan 2019 #12
My friend the tax law professor is the real hero. She makes things easier to understand. (tn) ehrnst Jan 2019 #15
Yeah, but you posted it and shared it. LittleGirl Jan 2019 #28
If there are any millionaires upset with AOC's plan Takket Jan 2019 #13
Far simpler approach brooklynite Jan 2019 #14
In all likelihood the ones that don't understand the tax rates LiberalFighter Jan 2019 #16
And for "qualified dividends" and capitol gains, which wealthy people marybourg Jan 2019 #17
Good points. And the tax on that stuff maxes out at 20%. 23.8% if include the NIIT 3.8% surcharge progree Jan 2019 #19
A couple small corrections - but the concept is right and I agree progree Jan 2019 #18
Let's not leave out long term capital gains - much of what the rich (make) harumph Jan 2019 #20
Someone on Twitter had a great theory... forgotmylogin Jan 2019 #21
Thank you this helps tremendously Dem_4_Life Jan 2019 #22
This is how bad our education sysytem is. The public can't even do simple math.n/t. Scruffy1 Jan 2019 #23
Yep. Remember all the "Joe The Plumbers" who crawled out of the woodwork... Hassin Bin Sober Jan 2019 #24
The rich seem to damn sure understand it. ooky Jan 2019 #25
Good post. I think for a simple way for people to understand it... LuckyCharms Jan 2019 #26
Bookmarked underpants Jan 2019 #27

Beakybird

(3,332 posts)
1. Nice analysis!
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 09:29 AM
Jan 2019

The best way to explain it is if someone makes $1,000,010, they only get taxed 70% on ten dollars.

TheBlackAdder

(28,179 posts)
2. RW likes Smith's "Invisible Hand" yet later states capitalism needs a heavily tiered tax system.
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 09:33 AM
Jan 2019

.

It's funny how they always seem to forget that part of what Adam Smith wrote.

.

ewagner

(18,964 posts)
8. Thanks for remembering that!
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:49 AM
Jan 2019

I'm shocked that most of my conservative friends either don't know this or choose to ignore it.

Farmer-Rick

(10,150 posts)
3. Thanks for explaining that
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 09:48 AM
Jan 2019

I've always wondered exactly why the qualifier "marginal" on the tax rate.

On top of this, we should remember that the uber rich don't pay Social Security on anything more than the first $132,900.

Roy Rolling

(6,911 posts)
4. Thanks for Two Reaons
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:38 AM
Jan 2019

One, a very thorough and accurate analysis of the income tax

Second, for reminding me that some are not acquainted with this as I am. Truly, it's something that must be addressed when debating issues such as this. Slip in the word "marginal" and a good many people are confused.

When "motivating the masses" we must use language and words understood by all. And the burden is on the SPEAKER to use understandable words and terms, not the LISTENER.

cbdo2007

(9,213 posts)
6. Add to this the opportunity for credits and additional deductions
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:47 AM
Jan 2019

Most people making the $2,000,000 in your example are still actually paying less in taxes due to various deductions and credits available to them, so even a 50% marginal tax rate isn't an actual percent of taxes paid. (there's a name for that put don't have it on the top of my head)

marybourg

(12,606 posts)
9. Most people (including news people) don't understand immigration laws
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:54 AM
Jan 2019

either, but talk about it constantly, lately

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
10. How many people are making 7 figures in wage income?
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:54 AM
Jan 2019

The real fuckery is the GOP's ability to convince the rubes that millions in income on equity should be taxed at an even lower rate than those making less than $96K.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,839 posts)
11. It does make me crazy that reasonably intelligent people don't get this.
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:58 AM
Jan 2019

Over the years I've periodically had someone complain hysterically that because of a recent wage increase, they are NOW PAYING MORE TAXES!!! And yeah, they are usually hyperventilating like that.

Even when I get them to look at the pay stub and see that they are still taking home more than they were before, they usually don't get it.

LittleGirl

(8,282 posts)
12. I can't tell you how much I appreciate this post.
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:59 AM
Jan 2019

I have bookmarked it for future reference.

Most heros don't wear capes, they post on DU!

Takket

(21,550 posts)
13. If there are any millionaires upset with AOC's plan
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:01 AM
Jan 2019

I will graciously make them this offer: they can switch salaries with me. They will have a much smaller tax bill, but much smaller income as well.

So after all the outrage about unfairness, how many millionaires do you think would take my offer?

LiberalFighter

(50,825 posts)
16. In all likelihood the ones that don't understand the tax rates
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:18 AM
Jan 2019

are those that have never done their own tax return.

marybourg

(12,606 posts)
17. And for "qualified dividends" and capitol gains, which wealthy people
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:30 AM
Jan 2019

have more of than poor people, there is a separate 0% bracket, in addition.

progree

(10,901 posts)
19. Good points. And the tax on that stuff maxes out at 20%. 23.8% if include the NIIT 3.8% surcharge
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:38 AM
Jan 2019

(NIIT = Net Investment Income Tax)

progree

(10,901 posts)
18. A couple small corrections - but the concept is right and I agree
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:32 AM
Jan 2019
Instead, the first $12,200 is tax-free as the "standard deduction". The next $9,700--so up to $21,900 in income--is taxed at 0%. So the tax bill on up to $21,900 *for everyone* is $0.


The next $9,700 is taxed at 10%, not 0%. So the tax bill on the first $21,900 is $970.

From $21,901-$51,675, the marginal tax rate *for everyone* is 12%. So someone making $51,675 owes $3,573 total in federal income tax (again: 0% ($0) on the first $21,900 + 12% on the next $29,775 ($3,573) = $3,573).


From $21,901-$51,675, the marginal tax rate *for everyone* is 12%. So someone making $51,675 owes $4,543 total in federal income tax (again 0% on the first $12,200 ($0) and 10% on the next $9700 ($970) and 12% on the next $29,775 ($3,573) = $970 + $3,573 = $4,543).

I didn't check the next few brackets individually, except the last one -- the $2,000,000 income -- and the tax bill is $970 too low. So it seems that the initial error -- the first $9,700 in income above the standard deduction -- is taxed at 10%, not 0% -- is probably the only error.

I get a somewhat different number for when the hypothetical top marginal rate of 50%

Total tax bill = $970+ $3,573+ $9,839.50+ $18,365.76+ $13,879.68 + $107,169.65 + $738,750 = $892,547.59

Again, thanks for taking the time to thoroughly explain marginal tax rates.


harumph

(1,896 posts)
20. Let's not leave out long term capital gains - much of what the rich (make)
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:40 AM
Jan 2019

is not taxed as "ordinary income."

forgotmylogin

(7,522 posts)
21. Someone on Twitter had a great theory...
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:50 AM
Jan 2019

...that this type of taxation, where accumulating *so* much money provides less incentive (diminishing returns as you make more money) actually is positive for society, since the "smart" people who seek the most lucrative money-making careers, which are about earning money from other people - often ruthlessly, might instead go into science or teaching or any more society-beneficial career because the reward is leveled out.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,318 posts)
24. Yep. Remember all the "Joe The Plumbers" who crawled out of the woodwork...
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 12:45 PM
Jan 2019

... and conveniently earned exactly $200,000 dollars per year - which was the beginning of the bracket proposed by Obama.

Never mind they wouldn’t have seen a dime’s worth of increase IF they really earned that much. The media still gave them a voice.

With all the deductions available to people typically earning that income, one would have to earn over $300k to start paying anything equaling more than pocket change.


Locally here in Chicago we had some University of Chicago professor whining about his and his wife’s high income woes. When you did the math with all his deductions, his “troubles” were minuscule. (That dude just reared his ugly head in some other nonsense right wing editorial that escapes my mind at the moment)

ooky

(8,920 posts)
25. The rich seem to damn sure understand it.
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 12:47 PM
Jan 2019

They want to buy politicians who will "de-regulate" and then set up their money making ventures ripping people off, live off the fruits of our land and then not contribute anything back into the system that's making them fat and happy.

Fuck them and their "flat tax", they are evil bastards.

LuckyCharms

(17,425 posts)
26. Good post. I think for a simple way for people to understand it...
Mon Jan 7, 2019, 01:10 PM
Jan 2019

is to explain this concept in terms of both the MARGINAL rate and the EFFECTIVE rate.

The effective rate would be the total bottom line tax (after going through all of the progressive rate levels) divided by taxable income. In your example, the effective rate for the person having 2,000,000 in taxable income is 41%, vs. the marginal rate of 50%. A person having "only" $1,100,000 in taxable income would have a marginal tax rate of 50%, but an effective tax rate of only about 40%. A person having $700,000 in taxable income has a marginal rate of 50%, but an effective rate of 34%.

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