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SKKY

(11,772 posts)
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 03:36 AM Jan 2020

Given what Ezra Klein said yesterday, it is becoming more and more...

...apparent that our only real way of pulling ourselves out of this horrendous constitutional mess is to take back the Senate. Even if it means we don’t win the WH. If we don’t take back the Senate, and Trump wins re-election, our Democracy as we know it will be effectively over.

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RockRaven

(14,784 posts)
2. It is reasonable to advance the point that one's Dem POTUS Primary vote ought to be cast
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 03:40 AM
Jan 2020

with keeping a Dem Senate majority in view... whatever that may mean given one's belief in how all these races and appointments may play out.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
3. If Trump wins re-election, our Democracy as we know it ...
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 03:58 AM
Jan 2020

... will be effectively over - full stop.

Taking back the senate will be meaningless if the IMPOTUS has had it confirmed (by way of his acquittal by the currently-constituted senate) that he is above the law, and thereby not obligated to recognize the senate as a co-equal branch of government.

"Even if we don't win the White House" is not an option.

moonscape

(4,664 posts)
4. It already is over 'as we know it' - the only
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 04:37 AM
Jan 2020

question is if it can be restored if he doesn't win reelection. We've learned how easy it is to corrupt the system, something I never could have imagined - so quickly and by such a buffoon.

But I agree with you totally. Should he win, it is not recoverable for generations, if ever.

uponit7771

(90,225 posts)
14. +1, right now we effectively don't have an election. Trump has already declared he'll cheat and
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 10:52 AM
Jan 2020

... his lawyers last night affirmed such multiple times how he will cheat.

SKKY

(11,772 posts)
5. Not if we take back the Senate.. .
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 05:05 AM
Jan 2020

...That will be the backstop against all the other crap he has in store.

 
9. still won't matter...
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 07:55 AM
Jan 2020

this impeachment has shown, as others have noted, Mr. Trump doesn't recognize the authority of the Senate or the House.

Just game this out, if Mr. Trump wins reelection that means he was acquitted in his current impeachment. This will only embolden Mr. Trump's reckless anti-democratic behavior. having a Dem majority in the Senate, will not put any "check" on a re-elected Mr. Trump.

he will continue to ignore all actions the Congress takes against him. that, in and of itself, is the literal definition of an authoritarian leader.

much of the issues in this scenario will need to be resolved in the courts then. which I don't know if you've been paying attention, the GOP has been packing just for such an occasion. one should view the GOP court packing as their golden parachute.

I happen to agree with others that severe damage has been done to our constitutional structure of government. The GOP has allowed the Trump presidency to establish an authoritarian leaning for the office. the framers were clear eyed this was their gravest concern. while we don't have a bloodline set for the office yet, Mr. Trump is acting like a King.

really the only way to ensure we are able to mitigate the damage his Majesty and his court (GOP) have unleashed on our country, is taking both houses od Congress and the White House. Full Stop.

there are numerous bills that need to be passed immediately to ensure our democracy is protected. however, I am frankly beginning to think, we need to re-write our entire Constitution, as the French have done 5 times now post their revolution.

given the SCOTUS has allowed money to be considered political speech, it is hard to imagine a bill withstand judicial review, that makes "dark money" illegal or a bill restricting political gerrymandering of districts.

thus, we need a new frame work that explicitly bans these anti-democratic behaviors if we seek to live in a republic. we should also weight the idea of a plural executive, as some framers of the Constitution suggested. having a executive consisting of three individuals, each independently elected, will ensure we are not a monarchy.

NewJeffCT

(56,827 posts)
15. A Democratic Senate & House
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 10:55 AM
Jan 2020

can appoint a special prosecutor independent of the DOJ.

In fact, even if Trump loses and is marched out of the White House in cuffs, they should still do this to dig into all the criminality and corruption

SKKY

(11,772 posts)
16. That is all true, and quite scary, but who is confirming all these judges???
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 04:16 PM
Jan 2020

Don’t get me wrong, we need both the WH and the Senate. But if we can only have one, I’d take the Senate every day of the week and twice on Sundays. This scenario is of course assuming we hold on to, or even expand margin in the house.

MoonlitKnight

(1,584 posts)
18. Agreed. We must get the Senate
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 06:51 PM
Jan 2020

We have to stop the appointments from their side and approve those from ours.
Nothing will happen if we have a Democratic President and a Republican Senate.

Jarqui

(10,110 posts)
6. Here's the part that really troubles me:
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 05:40 AM
Jan 2020

What makes you think "we" can ever "back the Senate"

William Barr and Bob Mueller maintain a sitting president cannot be charged with a crime.

Dershowitz argued that a politician trying to win reelection is acting in the national interest, and therefore a quid pro quo aimed at boosting reelection chances cannot be impeachable. As long as Trump's crimes are in the national interest in Trump's opinion, according to Dershowitz, Trump cannot be impeached. And the GOP Senate is about to ratify that and remained silent on that point.

It may not be in Trump's national interest to count ballots in predominantly black neighborhoods of battleground states, for example. It may be in Trump's national interest to accept unbridled help from China, Russia, North Korea, etc to assit in his reelection. The attorney general cannot charge him with a crime. The Senate won't impeach him for doing it.

So what gives you the assurance that the 2020 or 2022 election is going to be legitimate enough to take back the Senate? The GOP Senators are not going to go along with it because they might wind up in jail for all the Russian dough they've been taking.

With what I am seeing, democracy as we knew it in the United States of America already appears to be over. What is going to stop them now short of civil war? The Constitution is broken and the media sleeps on.

Lock him up.

(6,874 posts)
7. Dershowitz is nuts.
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 05:51 AM
Jan 2020

He's the ONLY scholar to ever say the prez is king, the prez decides what's in the national interest (while that IMPOTUS has no interest in briefings and knows nothing about foreign policy, clearly reported in many books from former insiders).

He's nutzzz

Jarqui

(10,110 posts)
12. Regardless of Dershowitz - the GOP Senate and the AG/DoJ
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 10:46 AM
Jan 2020

will not hold Trump to account for this behavior

which shreds the Constitution

Between now and Nov 2020, Trump, his corrupt AG and the GOP Senate can break as many laws as they like without any fear of being held to account. If they make sure they prevail, they make sure they can continue without fear of being held to account.

And I'm supposed to believe the illusion that we can win back the Senate under those circumstances? Rhetorical question if it isn't obvious.

We're in really deep shit here. What's worse is folks - including the media - can't seem to join those dots to realize how much trouble we're in (or they're in on it and not saying).

 
10. Dersh's claim yesterday was insane,
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 08:05 AM
Jan 2020

WH council Philbin says this impeachment will set the precedent for all time. as you noted, dersh believes and is seeking to establish: so long as the king believes it is in the national interest he the king can pursue such and any action.

literally what he said, aside from the king reference.

what is equally bizarre, Mr Trump's teams said you shouldn't (or can't) "psychoanalyze" the president's mind to obtain his motive for action. so they are trying to have it both ways.

if the president believes it's for the nations good it's ok, you can never know what the president believes.

this "genuinely held belief" idea is nuts. as there are several mental illnesses that include symptoms where an individual has delusional thoughts or hallucinations. such as schizophrenia, if we elect a schizophrenic president and they begin to hear voices telling them what to do "in the national interest", who is to say, the president didn't genuine believe these thoughts?

narcissism is another fine point, a narcissist is going to genuinely believe that they are the best person for the job without any reality testing supporting this claim.

 

denem

(11,045 posts)
8. America is like Santa Claus
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 06:21 AM
Jan 2020

A lie we tell our children that is not real.

If truth, justice and the Constitution are ghosts, the 'American Experiment' is over. We have failed.

lame54

(35,139 posts)
17. Thanks to Dershowitz...
Thu Jan 30, 2020, 04:28 PM
Jan 2020

There will be no election

Trump believes his remaining in power is best for the public interest

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