General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsLady at a game yesterday ordered me to take my hat off for the national anthem
I was going to anyway but it hadn't started yet. Anyway this got me thinking, when and how did that tradition get started? Can you be respectful to your country while wearing a hat and what does wearing a hat have to do with it at all? Your thoughts.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)I was at a game recently and was wearing a baseball hat because I hadn't had time to wash my hair. I forgot about the anthem and wore my hat throughout. No one said anything.
usregimechange
(18,373 posts)gkhouston
(21,642 posts)Ditto for "modest" women keeping their heads covered. There's a reference to it in 1 Corinthians, but don't read it unless you want a headache: the circular reasoning is completely .
Weirdly enough, in the Old Testament, women and men were expected to cover their heads.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Probably dates back to the whole religious women-should-cover-their-heads nonsense, who knows?
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)put on during the past century.
lob1
(3,820 posts)My wife took my hat and put in on. The priest was fine with her wearing it. I'm not catholic so I don't know why a woman can wear a hat and a man can't.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)When I was a kid, women would typically wear a lace doily looking thing on their heads or a scarf, while IN mass.
TlalocW
(15,359 posts)From what I've read - and this could just be a good story - knights in armor meeting each other or non-knights would show that they meant the other no harm by first raising their visor and then as helmets got lighter, taking the whole thing off. The custom got passed along to doffing one's hat in greeting - especially to women, etc. to general sign of respect. Now it's just one of those things you don't question.
TlalocW
Sophiegirl
(2,338 posts)It is a long-standing sign of respect. A national tradition that I have no issue with.
Even I take off my cap - sweaty hair and all and I face the flag. It is a sign of patriotism. One that I will honor all my days.
However, while I may I internally frown upon those that dont take off their cap, I won't say anything to them. I'm just sad that their parents didn't teach them about respecting the flag.
Sof
I'm not so much into respecting the flag as I am just not getting the evil eye from everyone else. Also my pledge is slightly different. "I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States. There. Done."
TlalocW
Sophiegirl
(2,338 posts)But I consider the flag a representation of the Constitution.
Iggo
(47,489 posts)I like it!
happyslug
(14,779 posts)People tend to forget, there has been FOUR Pledges of Allegiance. The Fourth and present one has the words "Under God" added by Congress in the 1950s. The Third Pledge, 1923-1953 replaced the term "My Flag" with "The Flag of the United States of America".
The Author wrote it in the 1890s, but he had to change it before it was published. The published one was the one used 1890s-1950s, the one the Author wanted is as follows:
More on the Pledge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
Present Version (Fourth Version):
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
1921-1923 version (Third Version):
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
The 1890-1923 version (Second Version, the first one actually accepted and used)
I pledge allegiance to My Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
What the Author wanted, but was rejected as to complex and controversial for the School Administrators of the 1890s (The First version, preferred by the Author, but also rejected by the Author)"
I pledge allegiance to the My Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, indivisible, with Liberty, equality, and fraternity for all.
http://www.lib.rochester.edu/index.cfm?PAGE=3418
TlalocW
(15,359 posts)I'm a 'murican, damn it, and I'll say whut ah wanna say when ah wanna say it! Shoooo-eeeet.
I remember being confused as a child watching cartoons on TBS after school, seeing a Porky Pig cartoon from the 1940s when they portrayed him as a child having difficult remembering the pledge. He falls asleep, and Uncle Sam shows him why we say the pledge, and he wakes up, looks in his book, and immediately gets it, reciting it but without the words, "Under God."
TlalocW
closeupready
(29,503 posts)public decorum - why would they teach them about something as abstract as "respecting the flag"?
I agree that it's sad that so many are so ignorant and poorly-raised, but that's reality.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)If someone around me doesn't, it would not bother me in the least. If someone turned their back to the flag it wouldn't bother me. If someone told that lady to f off it wouldn't have bothered me.
I will also never wear a hat inside. But I form no opinion of those who do.
Demit
(11,238 posts)I'm picturing the woman trying that in a Phillies crowd. She'd be reminded in various colorful ways of how strangers should mind their own manners instead of other people's.
Staph
(6,245 posts)I always take off my hat, unless I am performing the National Anthem. Then the hat stays on -- for convenience's sake, I suppose. It's hard to hold the hat and the saxophone at the same time!
Sophiegirl
(2,338 posts)..a gentleman based upon your comment.
Edit: Assuming you are a man, that is.
harpslay
(61 posts)And we all know whatever the military does in regards to patriotism, xenophobic americans are going to abide by and emulate
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)render a hand salute. If you are indoors, your cover is off already.
So the hat removal definitely does not come from the military.
FBaggins
(26,697 posts)Both the salute and the removal of headgear descend from former military greetings.
So while the current military practice is different, the removal of headgear still descends from the military practices of 2+ centuries ago.
sammytko
(2,480 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)Prior to the adoption of Gunpowder, the Military did as civilians do to this day, duff the hat. The problem is with the muzzle-loaders of the 1400s to almost 1900, one's hand would get covered with soot, thus if you duffed your hat, you would leave a black outline of your hand on the hat. Do to this problem the Salute was invented, so Soldiers could do something CLOSE to duffing their hats, without actually touching them.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)They salute at the first note of the anthem, with the hand brought to the brim of the hat if they're wearing headgear.
Service retirees and veterans also are now authorized by law to render a hand salute even while wearing civilian clothes.
GObamaGO
(665 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Some people don't, though--it's down to ingrained habit. I still have a hard time not saluting when the occasion used to call for it.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)MineralMan
(146,192 posts)I don't use a military salute, though. I prefer not to draw attention to the fact that I'm a veteran. It distracts from whatever is going on. I served. I'm a veteran. Me and very, very many people. OK. It's not a big deal.
MADem
(135,425 posts)fool who's forgittin' what's what!"
backatcha--thanks for that!!!!!!!
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)In the past, a veteran was authorized to salute only if he or she was wearing a veterans service organization cap. The law doesn't require anything; it merely prescribes what is acceptable.
And when the law was amended to allow vets to salute in civvies, the Commandant of the Marine Corps said that was not okay for Marine vets--they should just do hand-over-heart, not give a military salute.
MADem
(135,425 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)flag and the anthem. It's a rather long salute, too.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)The lady just proved Schopenhauer right.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)When I grew up in Chicago I was surprised to see people talking, shouting out beer orders, etc during the anthem. I quickly came to the conclusion that it was so much more relaxing and that the whole anthem thing at every freaking game was kind of silly anyway.
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)at sporting events. It trivializes it, in my mind. I'd like to see it reserved for patriotic sorts of occasions, and not used to celebrate beer drinking, generally.
I'm in the minority that way, no doubt.
bluemarkers
(536 posts)and for the same reasons too. I posted just the other day in another thread. Crowds just waiting until certain parts or the end to shout their personalization.
I've been to so many games and I will never be able to sing the anthem. I know the words, I just can't sing!
(plus the first stanza is a bit of a downer...)
surrealAmerican
(11,340 posts)I still haven't figured out why the anthem belongs at baseball games in the first place.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I'm edgy that way.
I always, always take my hat off though.
Poiuyt
(18,087 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)I hate sheep like this, she might as well be saying Baaaaaaaa.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)However going after other people and telling them to take off their caps is engaging in some kind of competitive nationalism game, which IMO is very unpatriotic. Patriotism isn't a sport, and it isn't something you use to shame or insult others. To use it that way is horrible.
madokie
(51,076 posts)As far as I'm concerned if someone wants to leave their hat on, thats fine with me. I'm important about the worry things.
Alduin
(501 posts)I hate it.
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)I quit pledging allegiances and singing anthems during Reagan
LeftofObama
(4,243 posts)About the time you know the National Anthem is going to start, run to the bathroom. No one is going to ask you to hold your hat while you're peeing.
rock
(13,218 posts)I remember in the army that all my salutes were required to be given by law with dire consequences for failure to comply. How much respect do you think they showed. (none)
In any case, yes you can. Many people are easily influenced by an empty image. (She was probably a Republican, that's the way they thinmk.)
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Warpy
(110,913 posts)instead of minding the OP's business.
I'd bet the rent she's Republican.
patrice
(47,992 posts)a person who is genuinely free can choose to do either and it would seem to me that an essential factor in authentic patriotism would be authentic freedom.
jp11
(2,104 posts)disrespectful about not following some old custom just because it is an old custom. I'm sure a good many would think you are being disrespectful since they can't know your heart but the point of such things isn't to know your heart but to make you conform.
Conforming I think is one of those things a society likes to indoctrinate so that it feels safer that all are playing by the same rules and on the same page. I'd guess it has an effect when people do things because they are expected to either unquestioning or simply absorbing the custom/policy based on the fact that it is 'custom/expected'.
patrice
(47,992 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)of hats and the confusion as to what it all is supposed to mean.
Here's a Utube version of it.. It's hilarious, typical Carlin logic, this time about hats.
PCIntern
(25,347 posts)I enjoyed the drive as well! Very relaxing...
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)And it wasn't my wife either.
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)Back in the "old days" you were just supposed to stand respectfully.
The pledge was when you put your hand over your heart.
ETA: I looked it up... turns out that not putting your hand over the heart is actually the more modern custom.
Mariana
(14,849 posts)Although it may have started before that and I just don't remember.
I've never understood why so many people feel the need to publicly exhibit their patriotism - or to try to pressure others to do the same.
dembotoz
(16,740 posts)i basically try to be away from the seating area when this happens so i do not have to deal with it
during viet nam when i was in high school of my classmates and i stopped standing and doing the pledge.
My homeroom teacher had bigger fish to fry and never made a big deal out of it.
Stopped doing it again under bush---my mind keeps going back to the movie the ten commandments.....
our golden calf is just painted red white and blue.
repect yes
worship no
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Of course, I grew up in a conservative area so I don't know about other places.
It's about a sign of respect. Men remove their hats for prayers, when a casket passes by, flags and all that. To not do is considered disrespectful.
It can be said that not doing it could be a sign of protest. When bush was in office, I knew people who refused to stand during the anthem or the pledge. I knew some who wouldn't take their hat off for the flag.
Response to usregimechange (Original post)
littlemissmartypants This message was self-deleted by its author.
Ilsa
(61,675 posts)also request that hats and caps be removed.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)That woman would have had a coronary. Two US colleges, but with a number of Canadian players. They play the Canadian anthem. Nothing. They then play the US anthem. The Canadians from both schools skate forward, and then turn their backs to the US flag. Slowly, all the other players, clearly Americans, do the same. Every single one on both teams.
Except for a small minority, the people in the stands SIT for the US Anthem. I guess sometimes it only takes a few with GUTS to spur on others. While this made local media, I heard later that it made national media too. Oh, the HORRORS of it.
Raine
(30,540 posts)Shrike47
(6,913 posts)I choked over the "with liberty and justice for all" part given what was going on in the South. Never started again, although I always stand.
Women must cover their heads in many churches as a sign of respect and humility.
NYC Liberal
(20,132 posts)Unless someone is singing it live...then of course I like seeing a live performance. If it's pre-recorded then no
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)FEMALE hair.
Centuries old.
Contrary1
(12,629 posts)of the late great Leslie Nielsen every time I hear it.