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usregimechange

(18,373 posts)
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 01:59 PM Sep 2012

Lady at a game yesterday ordered me to take my hat off for the national anthem

I was going to anyway but it hadn't started yet. Anyway this got me thinking, when and how did that tradition get started? Can you be respectful to your country while wearing a hat and what does wearing a hat have to do with it at all? Your thoughts.

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Lady at a game yesterday ordered me to take my hat off for the national anthem (Original Post) usregimechange Sep 2012 OP
Women aren't required to remove it at the national anthem, but many do anyway. Brickbat Sep 2012 #1
There is a gender difference too? Making even less sense usregimechange Sep 2012 #2
The tradition of men uncovering their heads as a show of respect goes back for centuries. gkhouston Sep 2012 #64
Same with jury duty- the judge asked only the men to remove their hats arcane1 Sep 2012 #5
I think with women, it's fashion. Women's hats were much more ornate and difficult to take off and Brickbat Sep 2012 #7
I was in the Vatican when a priest asked me to take off my hat. lob1 Sep 2012 #26
In Catholic churches, it's a sign of respect for women to cover their heads. Not for men. Honeycombe8 Sep 2012 #61
It's a general sign of respect TlalocW Sep 2012 #3
Respect Sophiegirl Sep 2012 #11
Eh TlalocW Sep 2012 #12
You can disagree with me Sophiegirl Sep 2012 #13
Bam! Right there. Iggo Sep 2012 #59
Why NOT go with the the Pledge as the author wanted it to be... happyslug Sep 2012 #60
Because TlalocW Sep 2012 #67
Parents don't teach their children about modesty or closeupready Sep 2012 #40
I take my hat off at games for the anthem. NCTraveler Sep 2012 #4
Haha! Like. Demit Sep 2012 #9
I was in the marching band in high school and college. Staph Sep 2012 #10
I consider you.. Sophiegirl Sep 2012 #14
it probably started in the Military harpslay Sep 2012 #6
No. In the military, you leave your cover on and MineralMan Sep 2012 #15
Actually, it does. FBaggins Sep 2012 #27
if you are carrying a weapon indoors (security police) your cover stays on. sammytko Sep 2012 #49
That only started with Gunpowder.. happyslug Sep 2012 #62
Except service members do not remove their hats pinboy3niner Sep 2012 #16
How on earth do they enforce that for retirees and veterans if they are in their civies? GObamaGO Sep 2012 #20
When you're in civvies, you do the hand over heart thing like the rest of the crowd. MADem Sep 2012 #30
You are authorized to salute now pinboy3niner Sep 2012 #39
That's correct. MineralMan Sep 2012 #46
Good--I end up doing it anyway, and always say "Oh shit, they probably think I'm a doddering old MADem Sep 2012 #52
It's not mandatory pinboy3niner Sep 2012 #35
The Marines always gotta be difficult!!!!!! nt MADem Sep 2012 #54
In most branches of the military you don't salute "uncovered," and you're supposed to salute the MADem Sep 2012 #29
"Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools." Schopenhauer Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2012 #8
It's somewhat regional. ieoeja Sep 2012 #17
Actually, I mildly object to the playing of the National Anthem MineralMan Sep 2012 #44
me too bluemarkers Sep 2012 #57
This is one of those things I like about Chicago. surrealAmerican Sep 2012 #53
Or my man-parts they watched... pornographically steaming... cherokeeprogressive Sep 2012 #18
As long as you keep your codpiece in place Poiuyt Sep 2012 #63
I would have told her to mind her own damn business quinnox Sep 2012 #19
IMO it is respectful to take your hat off for the national anthem gollygee Sep 2012 #21
Least of my worries madokie Sep 2012 #22
I don't understand why they have the patriotism crap at sporting events. Alduin Sep 2012 #23
Jehovah Witnesses have the right idea about this one Kolesar Sep 2012 #28
Just do what I do.... LeftofObama Sep 2012 #24
If I force you to take if off, it doesn't show respect rock Sep 2012 #25
"ordered?" I would have put my cap back on just for spite... Blue_Tires Sep 2012 #31
No kidding, Mrs. Busybody should have been minding he own business Warpy Sep 2012 #33
Leaving your hat on doesn't make you un-patriotic any more than taking it off does . . . patrice Sep 2012 #32
Lots of good posts I'll just add I don't think there is anything jp11 Sep 2012 #34
+1google for self:other-awareness = meaning patrice Sep 2012 #51
I saw a George Carlin skit a few months ago on this very topic, the wearing and not wearing sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #36
Terrific! Thanks! PCIntern Sep 2012 #43
Hysterical! Thanks for that! smirkymonkey Sep 2012 #66
That was no lady slackmaster Sep 2012 #37
When did the custom of putting your hand over your heart start with the anthem? OKNancy Sep 2012 #38
I don't remember seeing it before 9/11. Mariana Sep 2012 #58
good way to end up in a fight dembotoz Sep 2012 #41
Men always took their hats off for the anthem as far back as I can remember... cynatnite Sep 2012 #42
This message was self-deleted by its author littlemissmartypants Sep 2012 #45
Certain memorial buildings Ilsa Sep 2012 #47
My daughter's college hockey game when Bush invaded Iraq HockeyMom Sep 2012 #48
Mouthing off & bullying is a worst offense than leaving your hat on! nt Raine Sep 2012 #50
I stopped saying the pledge circa 1960 Shrike47 Sep 2012 #55
I use that time to go to the restroom NYC Liberal Sep 2012 #56
Men DOFF hats out of deference to a superior. Women WEAR hats because of the sexual connotation of WinkyDink Sep 2012 #65
I have difficulty concentrating long enough to make it through the song. I have visions Contrary1 Sep 2012 #68

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
1. Women aren't required to remove it at the national anthem, but many do anyway.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 02:01 PM
Sep 2012

I was at a game recently and was wearing a baseball hat because I hadn't had time to wash my hair. I forgot about the anthem and wore my hat throughout. No one said anything.

gkhouston

(21,642 posts)
64. The tradition of men uncovering their heads as a show of respect goes back for centuries.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 08:51 PM
Sep 2012

Ditto for "modest" women keeping their heads covered. There's a reference to it in 1 Corinthians, but don't read it unless you want a headache: the circular reasoning is completely .

Weirdly enough, in the Old Testament, women and men were expected to cover their heads.

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
5. Same with jury duty- the judge asked only the men to remove their hats
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 02:11 PM
Sep 2012

Probably dates back to the whole religious women-should-cover-their-heads nonsense, who knows?

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
7. I think with women, it's fashion. Women's hats were much more ornate and difficult to take off and
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 02:16 PM
Sep 2012

put on during the past century.

lob1

(3,820 posts)
26. I was in the Vatican when a priest asked me to take off my hat.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:40 PM
Sep 2012

My wife took my hat and put in on. The priest was fine with her wearing it. I'm not catholic so I don't know why a woman can wear a hat and a man can't.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
61. In Catholic churches, it's a sign of respect for women to cover their heads. Not for men.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 08:37 PM
Sep 2012

When I was a kid, women would typically wear a lace doily looking thing on their heads or a scarf, while IN mass.

TlalocW

(15,359 posts)
3. It's a general sign of respect
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 02:10 PM
Sep 2012

From what I've read - and this could just be a good story - knights in armor meeting each other or non-knights would show that they meant the other no harm by first raising their visor and then as helmets got lighter, taking the whole thing off. The custom got passed along to doffing one's hat in greeting - especially to women, etc. to general sign of respect. Now it's just one of those things you don't question.

TlalocW

Sophiegirl

(2,338 posts)
11. Respect
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:15 PM
Sep 2012

It is a long-standing sign of respect. A national tradition that I have no issue with.

Even I take off my cap - sweaty hair and all and I face the flag. It is a sign of patriotism. One that I will honor all my days.

However, while I may I internally frown upon those that dont take off their cap, I won't say anything to them. I'm just sad that their parents didn't teach them about respecting the flag.

Sof

TlalocW

(15,359 posts)
12. Eh
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:32 PM
Sep 2012

I'm not so much into respecting the flag as I am just not getting the evil eye from everyone else. Also my pledge is slightly different. "I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States. There. Done."

TlalocW

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
60. Why NOT go with the the Pledge as the author wanted it to be...
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 08:35 PM
Sep 2012

People tend to forget, there has been FOUR Pledges of Allegiance. The Fourth and present one has the words "Under God" added by Congress in the 1950s. The Third Pledge, 1923-1953 replaced the term "My Flag" with "The Flag of the United States of America".


The Author wrote it in the 1890s, but he had to change it before it was published. The published one was the one used 1890s-1950s, the one the Author wanted is as follows:


More on the Pledge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

Present Version (Fourth Version):
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

1921-1923 version (Third Version):
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

The 1890-1923 version (Second Version, the first one actually accepted and used)
I pledge allegiance to My Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

What the Author wanted, but was rejected as to complex and controversial for the School Administrators of the 1890s (The First version, preferred by the Author, but also rejected by the Author)"

I pledge allegiance to the My Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, indivisible, with Liberty, equality, and fraternity for all.
http://www.lib.rochester.edu/index.cfm?PAGE=3418


TlalocW

(15,359 posts)
67. Because
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 10:38 PM
Sep 2012

I'm a 'murican, damn it, and I'll say whut ah wanna say when ah wanna say it! Shoooo-eeeet.

I remember being confused as a child watching cartoons on TBS after school, seeing a Porky Pig cartoon from the 1940s when they portrayed him as a child having difficult remembering the pledge. He falls asleep, and Uncle Sam shows him why we say the pledge, and he wakes up, looks in his book, and immediately gets it, reciting it but without the words, "Under God."

TlalocW

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
40. Parents don't teach their children about modesty or
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:51 PM
Sep 2012

public decorum - why would they teach them about something as abstract as "respecting the flag"?

I agree that it's sad that so many are so ignorant and poorly-raised, but that's reality.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
4. I take my hat off at games for the anthem.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 02:10 PM
Sep 2012

If someone around me doesn't, it would not bother me in the least. If someone turned their back to the flag it wouldn't bother me. If someone told that lady to f off it wouldn't have bothered me.

I will also never wear a hat inside. But I form no opinion of those who do.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
9. Haha! Like.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 02:24 PM
Sep 2012

I'm picturing the woman trying that in a Phillies crowd. She'd be reminded in various colorful ways of how strangers should mind their own manners instead of other people's.

Staph

(6,245 posts)
10. I was in the marching band in high school and college.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:07 PM
Sep 2012

I always take off my hat, unless I am performing the National Anthem. Then the hat stays on -- for convenience's sake, I suppose. It's hard to hold the hat and the saxophone at the same time!


harpslay

(61 posts)
6. it probably started in the Military
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 02:15 PM
Sep 2012

And we all know whatever the military does in regards to patriotism, xenophobic americans are going to abide by and emulate

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
15. No. In the military, you leave your cover on and
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:43 PM
Sep 2012

render a hand salute. If you are indoors, your cover is off already.



So the hat removal definitely does not come from the military.

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
27. Actually, it does.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:40 PM
Sep 2012

Both the salute and the removal of headgear descend from former military greetings.

So while the current military practice is different, the removal of headgear still descends from the military practices of 2+ centuries ago.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
62. That only started with Gunpowder..
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 08:38 PM
Sep 2012

Prior to the adoption of Gunpowder, the Military did as civilians do to this day, duff the hat. The problem is with the muzzle-loaders of the 1400s to almost 1900, one's hand would get covered with soot, thus if you duffed your hat, you would leave a black outline of your hand on the hat. Do to this problem the Salute was invented, so Soldiers could do something CLOSE to duffing their hats, without actually touching them.

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
16. Except service members do not remove their hats
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:48 PM
Sep 2012

They salute at the first note of the anthem, with the hand brought to the brim of the hat if they're wearing headgear.

Service retirees and veterans also are now authorized by law to render a hand salute even while wearing civilian clothes.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
30. When you're in civvies, you do the hand over heart thing like the rest of the crowd.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:43 PM
Sep 2012

Some people don't, though--it's down to ingrained habit. I still have a hard time not saluting when the occasion used to call for it.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
46. That's correct.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:58 PM
Sep 2012

I don't use a military salute, though. I prefer not to draw attention to the fact that I'm a veteran. It distracts from whatever is going on. I served. I'm a veteran. Me and very, very many people. OK. It's not a big deal.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
52. Good--I end up doing it anyway, and always say "Oh shit, they probably think I'm a doddering old
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 06:17 PM
Sep 2012

fool who's forgittin' what's what!"

backatcha--thanks for that!!!!!!!

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
35. It's not mandatory
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:48 PM
Sep 2012

In the past, a veteran was authorized to salute only if he or she was wearing a veterans service organization cap. The law doesn't require anything; it merely prescribes what is acceptable.

And when the law was amended to allow vets to salute in civvies, the Commandant of the Marine Corps said that was not okay for Marine vets--they should just do hand-over-heart, not give a military salute.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
29. In most branches of the military you don't salute "uncovered," and you're supposed to salute the
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:41 PM
Sep 2012

flag and the anthem. It's a rather long salute, too.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
8. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools." Schopenhauer
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 02:17 PM
Sep 2012

The lady just proved Schopenhauer right.

 

ieoeja

(9,748 posts)
17. It's somewhat regional.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:05 PM
Sep 2012

When I grew up in Chicago I was surprised to see people talking, shouting out beer orders, etc during the anthem. I quickly came to the conclusion that it was so much more relaxing and that the whole anthem thing at every freaking game was kind of silly anyway.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
44. Actually, I mildly object to the playing of the National Anthem
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:55 PM
Sep 2012

at sporting events. It trivializes it, in my mind. I'd like to see it reserved for patriotic sorts of occasions, and not used to celebrate beer drinking, generally.

I'm in the minority that way, no doubt.

bluemarkers

(536 posts)
57. me too
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 06:28 PM
Sep 2012

and for the same reasons too. I posted just the other day in another thread. Crowds just waiting until certain parts or the end to shout their personalization.

I've been to so many games and I will never be able to sing the anthem. I know the words, I just can't sing!

(plus the first stanza is a bit of a downer...)

surrealAmerican

(11,340 posts)
53. This is one of those things I like about Chicago.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 06:18 PM
Sep 2012

I still haven't figured out why the anthem belongs at baseball games in the first place.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
18. Or my man-parts they watched... pornographically steaming...
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:06 PM
Sep 2012

I'm edgy that way.

I always, always take my hat off though.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
19. I would have told her to mind her own damn business
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:08 PM
Sep 2012

I hate sheep like this, she might as well be saying Baaaaaaaa.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
21. IMO it is respectful to take your hat off for the national anthem
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:11 PM
Sep 2012

However going after other people and telling them to take off their caps is engaging in some kind of competitive nationalism game, which IMO is very unpatriotic. Patriotism isn't a sport, and it isn't something you use to shame or insult others. To use it that way is horrible.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
22. Least of my worries
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:13 PM
Sep 2012

As far as I'm concerned if someone wants to leave their hat on, thats fine with me. I'm important about the worry things.

Kolesar

(31,182 posts)
28. Jehovah Witnesses have the right idea about this one
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:41 PM
Sep 2012

I quit pledging allegiances and singing anthems during Reagan

LeftofObama

(4,243 posts)
24. Just do what I do....
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:25 PM
Sep 2012

About the time you know the National Anthem is going to start, run to the bathroom. No one is going to ask you to hold your hat while you're peeing.

rock

(13,218 posts)
25. If I force you to take if off, it doesn't show respect
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:35 PM
Sep 2012

I remember in the army that all my salutes were required to be given by law with dire consequences for failure to comply. How much respect do you think they showed. (none)

In any case, yes you can. Many people are easily influenced by an empty image. (She was probably a Republican, that's the way they thinmk.)

Warpy

(110,913 posts)
33. No kidding, Mrs. Busybody should have been minding he own business
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:46 PM
Sep 2012

instead of minding the OP's business.

I'd bet the rent she's Republican.

patrice

(47,992 posts)
32. Leaving your hat on doesn't make you un-patriotic any more than taking it off does . . .
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:46 PM
Sep 2012

a person who is genuinely free can choose to do either and it would seem to me that an essential factor in authentic patriotism would be authentic freedom.

jp11

(2,104 posts)
34. Lots of good posts I'll just add I don't think there is anything
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:47 PM
Sep 2012

disrespectful about not following some old custom just because it is an old custom. I'm sure a good many would think you are being disrespectful since they can't know your heart but the point of such things isn't to know your heart but to make you conform.

Conforming I think is one of those things a society likes to indoctrinate so that it feels safer that all are playing by the same rules and on the same page. I'd guess it has an effect when people do things because they are expected to either unquestioning or simply absorbing the custom/policy based on the fact that it is 'custom/expected'.



sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
36. I saw a George Carlin skit a few months ago on this very topic, the wearing and not wearing
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:49 PM
Sep 2012

of hats and the confusion as to what it all is supposed to mean.

Here's a Utube version of it.. It's hilarious, typical Carlin logic, this time about hats.




OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
38. When did the custom of putting your hand over your heart start with the anthem?
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:51 PM
Sep 2012

Back in the "old days" you were just supposed to stand respectfully.
The pledge was when you put your hand over your heart.

ETA: I looked it up... turns out that not putting your hand over the heart is actually the more modern custom.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
58. I don't remember seeing it before 9/11.
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 06:33 PM
Sep 2012

Although it may have started before that and I just don't remember.

I've never understood why so many people feel the need to publicly exhibit their patriotism - or to try to pressure others to do the same.

dembotoz

(16,740 posts)
41. good way to end up in a fight
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:52 PM
Sep 2012

i basically try to be away from the seating area when this happens so i do not have to deal with it

during viet nam when i was in high school of my classmates and i stopped standing and doing the pledge.

My homeroom teacher had bigger fish to fry and never made a big deal out of it.

Stopped doing it again under bush---my mind keeps going back to the movie the ten commandments.....

our golden calf is just painted red white and blue.

repect yes
worship no

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
42. Men always took their hats off for the anthem as far back as I can remember...
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:53 PM
Sep 2012

Of course, I grew up in a conservative area so I don't know about other places.

It's about a sign of respect. Men remove their hats for prayers, when a casket passes by, flags and all that. To not do is considered disrespectful.

It can be said that not doing it could be a sign of protest. When bush was in office, I knew people who refused to stand during the anthem or the pledge. I knew some who wouldn't take their hat off for the flag.

Response to usregimechange (Original post)

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
48. My daughter's college hockey game when Bush invaded Iraq
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 05:45 PM
Sep 2012

That woman would have had a coronary. Two US colleges, but with a number of Canadian players. They play the Canadian anthem. Nothing. They then play the US anthem. The Canadians from both schools skate forward, and then turn their backs to the US flag. Slowly, all the other players, clearly Americans, do the same. Every single one on both teams.

Except for a small minority, the people in the stands SIT for the US Anthem. I guess sometimes it only takes a few with GUTS to spur on others. While this made local media, I heard later that it made national media too. Oh, the HORRORS of it.

Shrike47

(6,913 posts)
55. I stopped saying the pledge circa 1960
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 06:20 PM
Sep 2012

I choked over the "with liberty and justice for all" part given what was going on in the South. Never started again, although I always stand.

Women must cover their heads in many churches as a sign of respect and humility.

NYC Liberal

(20,132 posts)
56. I use that time to go to the restroom
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 06:21 PM
Sep 2012

Unless someone is singing it live...then of course I like seeing a live performance. If it's pre-recorded then no

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
65. Men DOFF hats out of deference to a superior. Women WEAR hats because of the sexual connotation of
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 08:55 PM
Sep 2012

FEMALE hair.

Centuries old.


Contrary1

(12,629 posts)
68. I have difficulty concentrating long enough to make it through the song. I have visions
Mon Sep 10, 2012, 11:15 PM
Sep 2012

of the late great Leslie Nielsen every time I hear it.

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