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Look for charges on killer to be upgraded too. (Original Post) mobeau69 Jun 2020 OP
Hopefully. Watching that video closely, with Chauvin adjusting his weight Mike 03 Jun 2020 #1
That's not sufficient for first degree murder StarfishSaver Jun 2020 #6
Post removed Post removed Jun 2020 #12
LOL. StarfishSaver Jun 2020 #14
Whatever. Tipperary Jun 2020 #17
Keith Ellison is basing his prosecution on Minnesota statute, not the legal.com dictionary StarfishSaver Jun 2020 #18
Not a lawyer, but I had never heard of 3rd degree murder Cirque du So-What Jun 2020 #2
I'm not a lawyer either but I have heard of "Justifiable Homicide". Of course that would be a abqtommy Jun 2020 #3
Only a few states have the 3rd degree charge. LastDemocratInSC Jun 2020 #4
In Minnesota, 3rd degree murder is causing someone's death by doing something "eminently dangerous" StarfishSaver Jun 2020 #8
I hope they don't charge him with first degree murder StarfishSaver Jun 2020 #5
We don't know the history between the cop and George Floyd, but they worked together Jersey Devil Jun 2020 #9
There's no evidence at this point that Chauvin and Floyd even knew each other, much less that StarfishSaver Jun 2020 #11
You don't have to plan a murder in advance to have specific intent Jersey Devil Jun 2020 #13
Intent and premeditation are two different things StarfishSaver Jun 2020 #15
Someone must've heard you..... 2nd deg.... nt Guy Whitey Corngood Jun 2020 #7
Good! I thought he was undercharged. The local DAs and the cops are drinking buddies. mobeau69 Jun 2020 #16
It's going to be quite a battle. He will have a very well funded defense and with a high profile totodeinhere Jun 2020 #10

Mike 03

(16,616 posts)
1. Hopefully. Watching that video closely, with Chauvin adjusting his weight
Wed Jun 3, 2020, 12:26 PM
Jun 2020

to increase the pain and pressure on George Floyd's neck whenever he cried out, it's ridiculous to argue he lacked the time or foresight to form intent (premeditation), especially with Officer Lane warning him twice to turn Floyd on his side and bystanders narrating the entire thing and saying, "He can't breathe" and "He's not moving."

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
6. That's not sufficient for first degree murder
Wed Jun 3, 2020, 02:15 PM
Jun 2020

Last edited Wed Jun 3, 2020, 03:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Premeditation is much longer and more distant in time and rarely occurs in the midst of the incident that caused the death. It is clear that Chauvin intended to do him bodily harm, but they would have to prove that he intended for him to die, which will be extremely to establish beyond a reasonable doubt.

Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #6)

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
18. Keith Ellison is basing his prosecution on Minnesota statute, not the legal.com dictionary
Wed Jun 3, 2020, 03:11 PM
Jun 2020
609.185 MURDER IN THE FIRST DEGREE.

(a) Whoever does any of the following is guilty of murder in the first degree and shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life:

(1) causes the death of a human being with premeditation and with intent to effect the death of the person or of another;

(2) causes the death of a human being while committing or attempting to commit criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence, either upon or affecting the person or another;

(3) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of the person or another, while committing or attempting to commit burglary, aggravated robbery, kidnapping, arson in the first or second degree, a drive-by shooting, tampering with a witness in the first degree, escape from custody, or any felony violation of chapter 152 involving the unlawful sale of a controlled substance;

(4) causes the death of a peace officer, prosecuting attorney, judge, or a guard employed at a Minnesota state or local correctional facility, with intent to effect the death of that person or another, while the person is engaged in the performance of official duties;

(5) causes the death of a minor while committing child abuse, when the perpetrator has engaged in a past pattern of child abuse upon a child and the death occurs under circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to human life;

(6) causes the death of a human being while committing domestic abuse, when the perpetrator has engaged in a past pattern of domestic abuse upon the victim or upon another family or household member and the death occurs under circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to human life; or

(7) causes the death of a human being while committing, conspiring to commit, or attempting to commit a felony crime to further terrorism and the death occurs under circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to human life.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.185


Please note that (a), the only provision of this statute that bears any connection to this case, requires premeditation and specific intent.

You're welcome.

Cirque du So-What

(25,812 posts)
2. Not a lawyer, but I had never heard of 3rd degree murder
Wed Jun 3, 2020, 12:46 PM
Jun 2020

WTF is that anyway? Is that like accidentally murdering someone?

abqtommy

(14,118 posts)
3. I'm not a lawyer either but I have heard of "Justifiable Homicide". Of course that would be a
Wed Jun 3, 2020, 01:03 PM
Jun 2020

ridiculous charge in this case but it does exist...

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
8. In Minnesota, 3rd degree murder is causing someone's death by doing something "eminently dangerous"
Wed Jun 3, 2020, 02:16 PM
Jun 2020

and "evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life." That's a slam dunk here and would not require any proof of what Chauvin was actually thinking or intended. It is not necessary to prove that Chauvin intended for Floyd to die - just that he intentionally engaged in the a reckless, wanton, or illegal act that caused the death.

Second degree murder requires proof of intent, which is much harder, but proof of premeditation is not necessary.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
5. I hope they don't charge him with first degree murder
Wed Jun 3, 2020, 02:12 PM
Jun 2020

First degree murder is very difficult to prove - it's a specific intent crime - and I don't think this case meets the elements. It will be very difficult to prove that Chauvin intended for Mr. Floyd to actually die and that he put his knee to the neck with the specific intent of killing him.

One of the problems with some of the past prosecutions of police officers and other killers of black men is that the prosecutors over-charged them and couldn't convince 12 jurors to agree on a conviction on the harsher charge. In some of the cases, the prosecutors were criticized because people suspected they over-charged on purpose, knowing that 12 jurors would never agree to convict.

I understand the desire for justice, but we also need to be realistic. I'd rather him get convicted and do time for a second or third degree murder than to walk out a free man because a jury didn't convict him on a first degree murder charge.

Jersey Devil

(9,863 posts)
9. We don't know the history between the cop and George Floyd, but they worked together
Wed Jun 3, 2020, 02:18 PM
Jun 2020

One was a bouncer inside and the other outside a bar for several years. If there was bad blood between them then maybe specific intent can be proven.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
11. There's no evidence at this point that Chauvin and Floyd even knew each other, much less that
Wed Jun 3, 2020, 02:21 PM
Jun 2020

Chauvin planned out his murder in advance. If there were such evidence, Keith Ellison would have charge him with first degree murder. If such evidence turns up, I'm sure he'll elevate the charges. But right now, he can't charge him for a crime just because the two men worked at the same place hoping that evidence will later turn up to support the charge.

Jersey Devil

(9,863 posts)
13. You don't have to plan a murder in advance to have specific intent
Wed Jun 3, 2020, 02:30 PM
Jun 2020

As for them knowing each other, I think it is rather unlikely that they both worked security at a bar for several years and didn't at least know each other by site.

I never said the charges should be 1st degree, only that there may be evidence we are unaware of that could make that happen

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
15. Intent and premeditation are two different things
Wed Jun 3, 2020, 02:49 PM
Jun 2020

Intent can arise in the heat of the moment but premeditation occurs in advance.

And there can always be evidence we're not aware of. It's possible that Chauvin was one of a squad of hit man hired by Bill Barr to kill black men across the country, but unless there's evidence to support it, the prosecutors can't charge it just because it's possible.

totodeinhere

(13,037 posts)
10. It's going to be quite a battle. He will have a very well funded defense and with a high profile
Wed Jun 3, 2020, 02:21 PM
Jun 2020

case like this a lot of lawyers will want to defend him if they can. And we know from past experience how hard it is to get a conviction against a cop. There have been so many cases that looked like a slam dunk that went the other way.

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