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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe cops likely wont be convicted
They should be sent up for a long time maybe 25 to life IMO but the chances of them getting convicted, if we are to go by past examples is very small.
At best a jury might give them a manslaughter conviction.
This might be Rodney King all over again and then there will definitely be another explosion.
Just dont depend on a conviction even though we have it on video
After Rodney King, the worse murder of police on an innocent black man was the murder of Amadou Diallo in NYC in 1999 who was shot over 40 times by 4 white cops and they got acquitted of 2nd-degree murder, not even convicted of manslaughter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Amadou_Diallo
I hope their convicted, they damn sure should be, but in America I doubt it.
unblock
(51,974 posts)despite how hard it is to convict police officers.
but i have a tough time thinking the others will get convicted.
frankly i'm shocked (pleasantly) that they were fired so quickly. i would have expected 2 weeks paid administrative leave while they investigate....
brush
(53,471 posts)the charge against Chauvin has been upgraded to 2nd degree murder without intent. Analysts Joey Jackson and Lora Coates explained that a 2nd degree murder conviction without intent can be proven when there is an underlying felony. That being felonious assault (knee on the neck for sustained period) which results in death.
The other cops are charged with aiding and abetting.
There's a good chance they will be convicted, especially with all the national uproar. An innocent verdict will just invite more national uproar and demonstrations. I don't think anyone wants that.
unblock
(51,974 posts)and frankly the fix the system needs isn't a cop or four getting convicted.
a whole lot more has to change to fix this mess.
brush
(53,471 posts)Hard to get around that. In most other cop murderer cases there has been no video. There is the Walter Scott case though in West Charleston where killer Slager shot and killed him.
The Slager jury hung 11-1 but federal charges convicted him and he is now serving 20 years.
They'll get these criminal cops one way or another.
EndlessWire
(6,376 posts)a video of who was standing or sitting on his chest area. This is critical, IMO. Maybe no one was there, or maybe someone else who compressed his chest.
I want to see their body cameras.
Response to brush (Reply #46)
Alpeduez21 This message was self-deleted by its author.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)brush
(53,471 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)that believe in their hearts that coos can't do no wrong, even when video shows clear wrongdoing.
The biggest threat to Black people are juries that look past clear wrongdoing by police and set them free.
brush
(53,471 posts)And the videos.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Remember the cop in South Carolina who took a shooting range stance and shot a fleeing Black man in the back? He was set free by a jury, eventhough video showed that he clearly made no attempt to try to chase the fleeing man, instead choosing to kill him by shooting him in the back as he tried to run away.
brush
(53,471 posts)but we still got the killer through federal charges. He's doing 20 years. This case is so, so high profile, I can't see all of those cops getting off from both state and federal charges.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)happen if those MN cops are acquitted.
Mike 03
(16,616 posts)Thomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)Mike 03
(16,616 posts)And the prosecution will argue George Floyd would be alive "but for" Chauvin's actions.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)The coroner didn't say any underlying condition killed him. At best, it was a contributing factor. And unless they can prove that Mr. Floyd would have dropped dead in the next few days even if Chauvin hadn't put his knee on his neck, that will be a tough one.
A basic tenet of criminal and civil law is that you take your victim as you find them - meaning that if you engage in an illegal, reckless or wanton act and, as a result someone dies, it doesn't matter that, unbeknownst to you, the person may have had an underlying condition that made it more likely that your act would cause their death. You take your victim as you find them - aka "the Eggshell Skull Doctrine" - and if you do messed up shish, you run the risk that you're doing it to someone who can die from it.
sir pball
(4,726 posts)This rule holds that a tortfeasor is liable for all consequences resulting from their tortious (usually negligent) activities leading to an injury to another person, even if the victim suffers an unusually high level of damage (e.g. due to a pre-existing vulnerability or medical condition).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)Igel
(35,196 posts)Hypertension and heart attack versus perfectly healthy and neither.
Second guy's older and a big name that was involved in some really high profile cases, with a track record of gravitating to certain kinds of cases--otherwise no reason to pull him in from out of state.
LastDemocratInSC
(3,625 posts)If those people hadn't been causing such a ruckus he would have remembered to take his knee of Mr Floyd's neck much earlier.
Mike 03
(16,616 posts)George Floyd on his side he had the presence of mind to reply, "No he's staying right here." He seems to have been alert and aware.
Solomon
(12,305 posts)PJMcK
(21,921 posts)Former U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade addressed this issue a few days ago in a column for The Daily Beast. Here's a pertinent excerpt:
To convict Chauvin of third-degree murder, the prosecution will have to prove that he acted with a depraved mind, without regard for human life. For second-degree manslaughter, the prosecutor will have to prove that Chauvin acted with gross negligence. These are the same standards that apply in every case of third-degree murder or manslaughter under Minnesota law.
Whats different when the defendant is a police officer is that he may use a public authority defense. That means the state has the burden of proving that the force used was not justified. A jury would be instructed that to conclude that the force was not justified, it must find that Chauvin created an unreasonable risk of death or great bodily harm.
Under Supreme Court case law of Graham v. Connor, the jury would further be told that reasonableness must be judged from the perspective of an officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight. Further, the jury would be told that their reasonableness inquiry extends only to those facts known to the officer at the precise moment that the officer acted with force. The jury would be reminded that to determine reasonableness, it must consider that police officers are often forced to make split-second judgments about the amount of force that is necessary under circumstances that are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving. This standard can be very difficult to meet.
The rest of her column is here:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-is-why-its-so-tough-to-charge-let-alone-convict-a-killer-cop
rzemanfl
(29,540 posts)PJMcK
(21,921 posts)It's a L-O-N-G time. The 13-year old's camera video is pretty damning, too, in the events it shows.
Nonetheless, Ms. McQuade has much more experience than I so I'll take her comments seriously.
Personally, I hope all 4 of those cretins get major terms.
Mike 03
(16,616 posts)and the onlookers narrating: "He can't breathe.... you're killing him.... he's not breathing..."
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)he still kept his knee on his neck for minutes after that. That makes if VERY difficult to conclude that from the perspective of the officer on the scene, it was reasonable. Particularly when one of the other officers suggested that he be rolled onto his side out of concern. That tells you that, in real time, they knew what they were doing was dangerous. That Chauvin knew.
I think it's the after the lack of a pulse conduct that will make this an easier than usual case to get a conviction on.
EndlessWire
(6,376 posts)It's been awhile since I saw the video. But, what I remember is an officer kneeling on someone's neck without using his arms, and appearing disinterested. And, when the guy moved slightly, he ground his leg into his neck even more. I do not recall that he even spoke to Floyd.
I'm guessing that there is a second person controlling his chest (back) area. Since I saw the officer grind Floyd's Adam's apple into the pavement, I would conclude that there was risk of great bodily harm. To Floyd, not the officer.
They have a lot of explaining to do. Was it so self evident that crushing someone's neck into the pavement was risky that they didn't even train for it? Would it have killed them to get one more officer to safely hold him down? There are a lot of people killed while on their stomachs. It just isn't right.
walkingman
(7,511 posts)is changed cops pretty much can act like Trump - do anything they want without any jeopardy.
Bradshaw3
(7,455 posts)The trial won't take place in Simi Valley. Also the LA reaction broke out AFTER they were acquitted. This reaction is prior to the trial.
Budi
(15,325 posts)Imagine trying to seat an unbiased jury at this point.
I expect the killer's attys are already looking for that one legal technicality.
ProfessorGAC
(64,422 posts)Not necessarily an acquittal.
Then, DA starts over.
Budi
(15,325 posts)No matter how long it takes.
ProfessorGAC
(64,422 posts)...I doubt the other 3 will not be allowed bail in short order.
Chauvin could be considered a flight risk since he has nothing to lose.
No matter what that punk running their union says. That guy is never working as a cop again, convicted or acquitted.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)He will get convicted. Don't know about murder 2, but he will be convicted.
There's just too much video evidence, and even chiefs of police nationwide have come out against him.
The other three I am less certain about.
rzemanfl
(29,540 posts)rzemanfl
(29,540 posts)pwb
(11,205 posts)Sleep tight pigs.
Mike 03
(16,616 posts)Officer Lane testifies against Chauvin.
They are former police officers, so there is less to lose by telling the truth.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)'thin blue reprisals' that my deter such testimony.
OnDoutside
(19,907 posts)zak247
(251 posts)One of the ugly secrets of this country is that even when white folks are murdered by cops they are rarely convicted!
So with black and brown victims, it's even worse.
Prosecutors are often wary of bringing charges against police because of the steep hurdles to obtaining a conviction. A doctrine known as qualified immunity protects police from prosecution in cases that dont involve a clearly established violation of the law.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/01/george-floyd-death-police-violence-in-the-us-in-4-charts.html
Mike 03
(16,616 posts)What is Chauvin's defense going to be?
He might try to say, he didn't realize what he was doing.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Sure... I can guess that 2+2=22 (there's a bunch of two's, right? So it must follow... like you did), but unless I can support that opinion with evidence other than fallacies predicated by the 'might' qualifier, I'd expect it to be soundly rejected out of hand.
Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)while he was on the ground begging for his life. The pig was engaging him in a sick game of "Simon says" and shot him point blank when he couldn't move in the confusing way he was instructed.
There was no conviction. I don't think the guy had even done anything.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)happen.
Throw in some BS in the county medical examiner's report about drug use, and some more jurors might have some doubts.
Fortunately, there is video in this case that shows a cooperative, handcuffed George Floyd, a most shocking look on the main policeman's face as he just sits there with his knee on Floyd's neck, etc., that might help.
Generally, I'd give a police officer the benefit-of-the-doubt when there is no such evidence. That's one reason I believe strongly in body cameras. But, it's plain they are guilty of something, at least manslaughter.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,145 posts)SideStep
(93 posts)That will be a tough day, for sure. I do have hope on this one. The visual is hard to not understand. A lawyer sitting in a courtroom in silence for over nine minutes showing the time it took is going to shake the jury.
I feared for my life is often the go-to. It's easy for a jury to comprehend. That will not be the case this time.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/police-officers-convicted-fatal-shootings-are-exception-not-rule-n982741
lambchopp59
(2,809 posts)Because dog dammit we were making progress getting past all this shit before the thinly veiled racism and white supremacy sewer tanks blew the lid off with this MAGA shit. The whole idiotic Trumpian shit pie can represent nothing else but a return to the "good ol' boys" (lily white all) systemic racism, xenophobia, homophobia and the lowest common denominator of policing such as this crap.
Don't any Trump hat fuckface give me any more dancing around that this whole nauseating, murderous and catastrophic inquisitiion doesn't have kneejerk-reaction-to-the-bad-black-man-who-won-presidency goddamn tantrum. I'm not having it, especially now or ever again.
I'm still appalled at the last few elections worldwide placing fascist assholes in positions of power, as well as deeply suspicious. Our American dual threat of Trump and Bolsonaro have destabilized so much environmental progress, previously restoring hope for our progeny now dashed.
I had a pretty curt conversation with a pair of Fox-Noise laced speech idiots over the holiday weekend. It started with their misconcepts about my wearing masks in public and upset they were getting their free dumbs restricted. They sort of.... ahem... forgot that I work in healthcare, and after putting their idiotic notions to shame, Mr MAGA was a bit thunderstruck.
So... just exactly how this whole damn inquisition is Making Murica Grate Again...
they got lots and lots and lots and lots of 'splainin' to do about that.
BamaRefugee
(3,476 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 3, 2020, 04:59 PM - Edit history (1)
Then the acquittal, just like Rodney King. As an Angeleno who got caught in the King riots, this was the first thing that came to me mind, THEN, AG Ellison said the exact same thing on TV! And that his first priority was to "try" to prevent that happening.
I looked it up and found that between 2005 and 2020, between 900 and 1000 people dies at the hands of cops in America. PER YEAR
That's conservatively, let's say 12,000 people.
How many cops got found guilty and put in prison?
THIRTY-FIVE.
But hey, one Minneapolis cop WAS found guilty of murder and imprisoned.
A black cop.
For killing a white woman.
zak247
(251 posts)They took a long time to indict him and I think he was African or Arab maybe.
BComplex
(7,982 posts)Fires to make California look like a campfire.
zak247
(251 posts)It's a good chance, that jack ass with the knee will get convicted of something.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)"For cops who kill, special Supreme Court protection.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/08/nyregion/grand-juries-seldom-charge-police-officers-in-fatal-actions.html
"Grand Jury System, With Exceptions, Favors the Police in Fatalities"
Newest Reality
(12,712 posts)If he doesn't get convicted, (or the others for that matter) it is quite possible that these protests we are seeing now are just a long parade by comparison, even if this round eventually quiets down.
Depending on how long a trial drags out we have: more waves of C-19 coming, (possibly worse), more people possibly losing the unemployment compensation, increased evictions, homelessness, more hunger, etc.
If the US hasn't collapsed by then, I can't see exoneration as being just a verdict for those involved. It will be for all of us and it will be palpable.
Blasphemer
(3,261 posts)Under The Radar
(3,401 posts)And the side that is demanding justice seems so much stronger than it has in the past. The bullshit side of imaginary law and order seems to be much less vocal than ever before.
Cousin Dupree
(1,866 posts)more racist, biased juries.
BamaRefugee
(3,476 posts)BamaRefugee
(3,476 posts)safeinOhio
(32,531 posts)There is some history between the two. They both were bouncers at the same bar/restaurant for 14 years. If it turns out something between the two in the past, the whole may blow up. We will see.
BannonsLiver
(16,162 posts)So much of it rides on the quality (talent level) of whichever prosecuting attorneys do the actual courtroom arguments. Also the jury which will be an even bigger consideration. A lot of variables still undetermined.
Hav
(5,969 posts)but I also think that the prosecution should use the record of all that was said during this incident: All the pleas for help by Floyd that he cannot breathe, the comments from the officers and those of the bystanders all realizing what was happening. The jury also has to see video footage again and again. I think a jury could be persuaded that Chauvin acted with intent and didn't do anything to prevent the tragedy.
I also think that the second cop sitting on Floyd's back will get more severe charges.
Of course, the charges have to fit what the prosecution can argue with conviction.