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TrollBuster9090

(5,954 posts)
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 12:50 AM Sep 2012

Four things to remind your Republican friends about when they're blathering about the Middle East.

There is no mystery as to why Republicans have gone into a deep state of schizophrenic cognitive dissonance (aka 'gone NUTS!') over Obama's successful track record in the middle east. Here's why:

1. Every president since Reagan has labelled Gaddafi a terrorist menace to world peace, and tried to depose or kill him. They all failed...OBAMA SUCCEEDED. Reagan even bombed Tripoli in 1986 (ostensibly to hit 'military' installations, but really to kill Gaddafi) and failed. That's right...Obama succeeded in getting rid of Gaddafi where even St. Reagan failed. If Bush had gotten rid of Gaddafi, the Republican chest beating would have been a 6.2 on the Richter Scale. But since it was Obama, they've had to do some MAJOR mental/rhetorical gymnastics to find reasons why Gaddafi's elimination is suddenly a BAD thing. (aka 'gone NUTS')

2. Bush tried for 8 years to get bin Laden and FAILED. Obama got him. That's right, in his first term, Obama got the two guys that both Reagan AND Bush Jr. FAILED to get in a total of 16 years. Again, finding reasons why this is suddenly a bad thing has not exactly been good for their sanity. Their 'reasons' generally revolve around the use of drone strikes, or the amount of time Obama went without a congressional declaration of war, none of which would have bothered them if a GOPer had been in the Oval Office. But again, it's simply an example of cognitive dissonance over them not being able to come to grips with the fact that a black, liberal Democrat succeeded in doing what two white, conservative Republicans FAILED MISERABLY to do.

3. After the whole WMD lie fell apart, Bush's 'justification' for invading Iraq became the neo-conservative PNAC dogma that if you spread DEMOCRACY TO THE MIDDLE EAST, terrorism will disappear, because free democracies rarely fight each other or engage in terrorism. So, Bush caused the deaths of 3000 U.S. soldiers and 30 000 U.S. casualties, $2 trillion wasted, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's killed as 'collateral damage,' and up to a million Iraqi refugees displaced in an effort to spread democracy across the middle east...AND FAILED. Obama made two speeches (one in Turkey and one in Egypt) saying that America is NOT an enemy of Islam (which bush said also, but never in the middle east), and KICKSTARTED THE ARAB SPRING without it costing one penny, or taking one life. Naturally, that idea would literally drive Republicans INSANE, and they've had to look for some contorted reasons why democracy in the middle east is suddenly a BAD thing. "Muslim Brotherhood...blah blah blah..."

4. And finally, if pointing these things out to your Republican friends does no good, and they STILL insist on falling back on the "apology tour," "WEAK foreign policy in the middle east" meme...you'll have no choice but to remind them of this: In 1983 Reagan sent U.S. Marines to maintain peace in Lebanon. The Islamic Jihad (an Iranian terrorist organization) drove a truck bomb into the Marine barracks, killing 200 Marines, and Reagan pissed off home like greased lightning. That's right, St. Reagan RETREATED in the face of a terrorist attack. In the aftermath, Reagan traded arms for hostages with the same Iranian terrorist groups, and the level of jihadist terrorism increased, presumably because Reagan had shown such cowardice and lack of resolve in the middle east.

Here's the bottom line: Conservatives had EIGHT YEARS to try and solve America's problems THEIR WAY. They FAILED PATHETICALLY. We deserve at least eight years to try it ANOTHER way. No, the failures were not Bush's fault, per se. It's the fault of the current conservative philosophy, and the current batch of GOP ADVISERS.

There are two groups of advisers floating around, A) the batch that advised Bush and B) the batch that advised Clinton. Obama is currently using the CLINTON ADVISERS. If you elect Romney, he'll just switch back to the same gang of BUSH ADVISERS. Rove on politics, Art Laffer and Phil Gramm on economics, Grover Norquist on tax policy, and the whole PNAC gang of neo-conservatives (Wolfowitz, Feith, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld ect.) on foreign policy. It may not be a pleasant choice, but given a choice between the CLINTON ADVISERS and the BUSH ADVISERS to run the country, I'll take the Clinton advisers every time.

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braddy

(3,585 posts)
1. Something that people don't know about the Grenada invasion, is that troops were being moved into
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 01:19 AM
Sep 2012

place when the Lebanon barracks were bombed. The invasion of Grenada had already started, within hours, the Rangers were parachuting onto the Point Salinas airport and the Navy and Marines had been approaching for a couple of days and would show up shortly.

TrollBuster9090

(5,954 posts)
6. Well, I guess rule number one of war chickenhawkism is to always make sure you're fighting somebody
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:36 AM
Sep 2012

who's easy to BEAT! Even the British knew that during THEIR Empire days.

It reminds me of Rowan Atkinson's line in BLACKADDER IV, when he's comparing British Empire 'wars' to WWI.

"Yes, I was in the Army for 20 years before this war started. I'd had 20 years of experience fighting in Africa. 20 years of learning how to order a PINK GIN and say 'do you do it doggy-doggy' in Swahili. And I was in the army during that period in history when the pre-requisite for any British campaign was that the enemy should, under no circumstances CARRY GUNS. Even SPEARS made us think twice. The kind of people WE liked to fight were two feet tall and armed with blades of dry grass. And then all of a sudden 10 million heavily armed GERMANS hove into view. It was a SHOCK, I can tell you..."

So, Reagan's invasion of Grenada was basically the American Empire version of an enemy that was 2 feet tall and armed with blades of dry grass, I guess.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
2. Other than that I think we could do better than the Clinton advisors on economic issues,
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 03:19 AM
Sep 2012

I totally agree. Obama/Clinton/Biden are doing a great job on foreign policy. They really, really are good at it. Doesn't mean everything will always go our way. If it could always go our way it would be nice, but that has never been the case and it never will be.

TrollBuster9090

(5,954 posts)
5. I think you're right about the economic advisers.
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:30 AM
Sep 2012

Fire Bernanke and put KRUGMAN in charge of the FED. That's what I say.

If you're going to constantly be ACCUSED of being a Keynesian...YOU MAY AS WELL BE A KEYNESIAN!

Keynesian economics actually WORKS, but it's rarely ever been tried. Keynesian economics calls for lowering taxes, lowering interest rates, borrowing money and increasing govt spending during busts to re-inflate the economy. It also advocates doing the exact opposite of all those things during BOOMS in order to moderate bubbles! The first part is easy, the second part is hard.

So, what politicians typically do is...lower taxes, lower interest rates, borrow money and increase spending during both busts AND booms! Well, sorry guys, but that's not Keynesian Economics. That's Keynesian STRAW-MAN-O-NOMICS!

calimary

(81,220 posts)
3. Great summary, TrollBuster9090! REALLY good. Like the way you listed them, too.
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 03:23 AM
Sep 2012

I made myself a couple of copies of them. This may well provide me with the next response to one of those crackpot anti-Obama emails I get every so often. Always good to be well-supplied with rebuttals!

And yeah, your point at the end is EXCEPTIONALLY well-taken! CRITICAL to remember that you aren't just voting some candidate into the Oval Office. You are ALSO voting for all the advisors, donors, back-room friends and fellow schemers and others of like mind who DON'T have so much on the line with the public. So they can go stealth and exert all kinds of influence on judicial nominations, Cabinet officers, advisor postings, policy, etc. That's another big problem I have with wrongney. His foreign policy department is crawling with PNACers and their unfinished business left over from the truly DREADFUL dubya years.

TrollBuster9090

(5,954 posts)
4. Thanks! And it's important for us to remember that, while Bush is an easy target, it wasn't Bush
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:25 AM
Sep 2012

who failed. It was his policies. And Romney will implement THE SAME policies and have THE SAME advisers.

The Republicans have succeeded in hiding Bush (probably in a 'spider hole' like Saddam after the fall of Baghdad), and keeping him out of sight so that nobody will remember him. However, the party might have renounced BUSH, but they've made absolutely no effort to renounce or even SOFTEN their POLICIES. In fact, they've DOUBLED DOWN ON THEM.

MORE tax cuts
MORE deregulation of the finance industry
MORE oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico
MORE wars and large military interventions

It's like saying you burned your hand when you touched a hot stove...and then somebody tells you "well, the reason you burnt yourself was because the stove clearly wasn't HOT enough! If you'd turned the heat up twice as high it wouldn't have hurt at all.

 

B Calm

(28,762 posts)
8. It'll go through one ear and out the other. The
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 07:01 AM
Sep 2012

only time they'll listen is when they hear a right wing propagandist spewing bull shit lies over their am radio!

MattSh

(3,714 posts)
9. Or maybe, just maybe, you can counter their lies with some FACTS?
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 09:26 AM
Sep 2012

Or maybe at least supply links that support what you say?

OK, lets counter #1.

From http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/arcvol2/email123.php

First of all, education is free in Libya, from kinder gardens to university. 270,000 university's students pay a tiny annual fee of US$9 (yes nine!) to have access to an university education system, that is endowed with huge libraries, and research departments in all kinds of knowledge equipped to the existing highest international standard.

Second, water and electricity are free for Libyan citizens. The regime have invested billion to bring aquifer freshwater from southern Libya's desert to the coastal regions where the populations are concentrated. The Man Made River is a worldwide acclaimed achievement that would stand as a testimony to Gaddafi's huge contribution to the economic developing of Libya

It is worth noticing that the cost of the project (in excess of US$35billions) had been exclusively financed by Libya's Central/Reserve Bank, without borrowing a cent from abroad. That kept the cost of building at check - contrary to the dogma that money should be borrowed from abroad to implement projects in emerging countries in order to keep inflation down.


and ...

As brilliantly demonstrated by Walter Rodney, Africa had been, and still is economically exploited to remain a subsidiary client to the economic powers of the day. Everything is done, through astutely implemented economic, political and financial policies, to keep the continent as a consumer of imported expensive goods, and remaining provider of cheap soft commodities and mineral raw materials.

Projects's financing are granted to African countries at conditions that not only increase sovereign debt load, but also most of the times, under strict procedural disbursement rules, that delay the implementation of vital infrastructure, in telecommunications, roads's development, agriculture and industries expansion.


Now, let's move on to #2. From http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/02/05/142288/reagan-centennial/

Bin Laden would not have been possible without Reagan. How the hell you can say Reagan was out to get him is beyond all facts, and all possible interpretation of the facts.

Reagan helped create the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. Reagan fought a proxy war with the Soviet Union by training, arming, equipping, and funding Islamist mujahidin fighters in Afghanistan. Reagan funneled billions of dollars, along with top-secret intelligence and sophisticated weaponry to these fighters through the Pakistani intelligence service. The Talbian and Osama Bin Laden — a prominent mujahidin commander — emerged from these mujahidin groups Reagan helped create, and U.S. policy towards Pakistan remains strained because of the intelligence services’ close relations to these fighters. In fact, Reagan’s decision to continue the proxy war after the Soviets were willing to retreat played a direct role in Bin Laden’s ascendancy.


Hey, who knows? Maybe the others can be countered too. But I've got other things to do right now.
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