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Happy Anniversary Occupy Movement (Original Post) malaise Sep 2012 OP
du rec. Nt xchrom Sep 2012 #1
Here's to many more! Zorra Sep 2012 #2
15 people arrested yesterday. NY Times says that the arrest appeared random.. Luminous Animal Sep 2012 #3
So much for the right to protest malaise Sep 2012 #4
. n/t porphyrian Sep 2012 #5
K&R - thank you. myrna minx Sep 2012 #6
I'm not "99%". I think the 91-99 percentile is just as likely or MORE to fuck me over Romulox Sep 2012 #7
It's actually the .01% and whoever is loyal to them, like the NYPD Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #9
No, it's not. Those 95 percenters making $250,000 haven't historically been Romulox Sep 2012 #10
Some successful small business people are in that range. Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #29
OK. The same could be said for the so-called "99%"--this was supposed to be about STRUCTURAL change Romulox Sep 2012 #32
Agreed with changing the structure. Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #33
right you are 2pooped2pop Sep 2012 #14
Does symbolism mean anything to you? lunatica Sep 2012 #13
Yes it does. The symbol doesn't fit reality, in this case. It's more aspirational, Romulox Sep 2012 #15
People all over the world got the message it conveys more clearly than sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #17
Just laugh malaise Sep 2012 #18
Yes, probably the best thing to do. I see they are in NYC getting ready for tomorrow sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #23
Actually, my point was that OWS is allowed to go on, because it is *harmless*. I didn't question Romulox Sep 2012 #25
Romulox, for giggles and grins... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #26
Pointing out that Madison Ave. has a hold of it tends to make *my* point as much as yours, no? Romulox Sep 2012 #21
Interesting. sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #22
Every time someone disagrees with you, it's not because they "misunderstand"! Romulox Sep 2012 #24
If you are among the minority who don't 'get it' then no, not much we can do to help you. sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #27
You just aren't respectful of other's opinions. I've had enough again. nt Romulox Sep 2012 #28
NO, Madison Ave types are stealing it because it works. Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #30
Right. It "works" to promote the goals of the moneymen who pay Madison Ave. types. Romulox Sep 2012 #31
I Have a Dream tama Sep 2012 #8
Nice malaise Sep 2012 #19
K & R Raksha Sep 2012 #11
K&R. Overseas Sep 2012 #12
K & R !!! WillyT Sep 2012 #16
kicking! Coexist Sep 2012 #20

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
3. 15 people arrested yesterday. NY Times says that the arrest appeared random..
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:17 AM
Sep 2012

but I suspect they were targeting people that the police feel are effective activists.

The first arrests took place around 6:30 p.m. on Broadway near West 4th Street. Witnesses said that marchers were on the sidewalk on the west side of Broadway when officers grabbed one young man who may have been wearing a bandanna mask and pushed him against the wall.

A video of the event showed milling protesters and officers pushing into the crowd on the sidewalk. Moments later, five men in handcuffs could be seen in the rear of a police van.

...

At 8:30, near Thames Street, a commander ordered the crowd to disperse, and a moment later officers pushed into the crowd, knocking down some protesters and arresting some.

The police repeated that maneuver a few minutes later, and then pushed a group of protesters against the side of a building. One man objected, and an officer pulled him from the crowd and arrested him. At least two other arrests followed, with officers appearing to grab some people almost at random.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/16/nyregion/several-arrests-at-occupy-wall-street-march.html?_r=1

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
7. I'm not "99%". I think the 91-99 percentile is just as likely or MORE to fuck me over
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:20 AM
Sep 2012

than the so-called "1%". The whole frame is defective.

Tigress DEM

(7,887 posts)
9. It's actually the .01% and whoever is loyal to them, like the NYPD
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:43 AM
Sep 2012

Not ALL of the 1% are bad for America and there are many in the 99% that are blindly obeying orders and ripping our freedom apart.

But it's another way of simply saying, "Follow the money." When there are people doing harm to America, Americans or American Civil Liberties FIND OUT who is paying them to do the damage. THOSE are the enemies of FREEDOM.

So much of the funding of these right wing policies to attack and smear, round people up and imprison them without cause have already been traced back to people within the 1% group.

It's overly inclusive, but it isn't a defective frame of reference as long as you realize that those people outside the 1% behaving like this have a money/ideology trail leading back to these 400 families and various corporations that have been given status as "people" who think their money gives them the right to rule the world as they see fit.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
10. No, it's not. Those 95 percenters making $250,000 haven't historically been
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:54 AM
Sep 2012

allies to working people. Exactly the opposite.

Tigress DEM

(7,887 posts)
29. Some successful small business people are in that range.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 12:28 AM
Sep 2012

They pay their people living wages and wouldn't mind paying their fare share.

I don't think there is an exact financial cutoff that makes people turn rethug, but there are some sweet spots that make it harder to "want" to pay more taxes.

Those who are selfish are selfish at $20,000 a year or at $2 mil a year. Remember a lot of these people voting for rumbucket are poor, but want to be rich and able to do what he's doing.

I will agree that a lot of those in the $250,000 range may be those type of people further along in the game, but the high rollers are still the ones controlling the stakes and bringing them into compliance is about taking that control back.

There was a post a while back about someone giving over info on off shore accounts and the IRS being able to collect about 5 billion in unpaid taxes and fines from high rollers hiding their money. Tip of the iceberg for that group.

The big offenders are really dirty right now because they are close to having this country bought and paid for. They have been pulling out the stops and being able to really bring down the big guys means others will have to work their way up to that much power to be as much of a threat.

Rolling back Citizens United and getting big money off the "pay to play circuit" that keeps the rest of us out of any chance at being able to work our way up and enjoy any real payoff for our own efforts will make it even harder for this scenario to happen again.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
32. OK. The same could be said for the so-called "99%"--this was supposed to be about STRUCTURAL change
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 10:01 AM
Sep 2012

not relying on the generosity of some wealthy folks.

Tigress DEM

(7,887 posts)
33. Agreed with changing the structure.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 09:56 PM
Sep 2012

Maybe what I'm aiming at is more the frustration I sense in your comments.


I guess I'm hoping to encourage you to think a little differently about it.

We DEMS actually HAVE friends in many income brackets who will welcome AND vote for these changes because it's really better for the whole economy if we have enough money to do things correctly.

There are a very few at the top and people who have been drinking their brand of koolaid that are dug in like ticks and won't change without a knock down drag out fight. BUT a lot of others will go along with the laws if we can get them through and be happier when the country starts flourishing again.



 

2pooped2pop

(5,420 posts)
14. right you are
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 12:12 PM
Sep 2012

some people just hate to give Occupy the credit it deserves. Those occupiers, by refusing to leave when they were ordered to, brought the spot light on the class difference, and the many ways that those who buy the laws, screw us over again and again. They showed us the need for real change in this country. They changed what was being talked about. I think they are directly responsible for the democrats emergence of a spine, when they saw that while not all agreed with Occupy itself, most do relate to it's message. (and for any who still can't figure out it's message, please, that is so old.)

No one has done as much for civil rights since the civil rights movement itself.

I had hoped to return to NY for the anniversary. Anyone know how many are there?

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
13. Does symbolism mean anything to you?
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 12:03 PM
Sep 2012

Because that's what the the numbers 99% and the 1% are. Symbols of a concept that are almost perfect in getting a very complex issue clarified.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
15. Yes it does. The symbol doesn't fit reality, in this case. It's more aspirational,
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 12:13 PM
Sep 2012

than anything. Maybe one day the 91-99% will fight for the interests of the lower 50%.

But I suspect that will be when the lion lies down with the lamb...

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
17. People all over the world got the message it conveys more clearly than
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 01:45 PM
Sep 2012

all the attempts to explain the issue ever have before.

It is now being used by Madison Ave. in ads and each time people see it, it is a reminder of the inequality that continues to worsen in this country.

It's similar to someone saying 'I'm feeling blue' eg. We know they mean they are actually blue. We know what they mean.

It was brilliant marketing of an idea and it worked. Even the President has used it.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
23. Yes, probably the best thing to do. I see they are in NYC getting ready for tomorrow
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:17 PM
Sep 2012

and Bloomberg's army is already threatening to arrest them. Looks like a lot of people are there already. Tom Morello from Rage at the Machine was there today practicing. I love that guy, he is an inspiration.

Weren't we talking about how we value 'free speech' in this country over the past few days? I haven't noticed that over the past year as we witnessed mass arrests, abuse by the police, injuries to peaceful protesters some very serious, and even accusations of terrorism, including the arrests and abuse of Journalists.

We like to boast about the 1st Amendment until people go out and try to use it to protest our Wars and Wall Street. THEN we see, as does the whole world, how little free speech is actually allowed in this country.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
25. Actually, my point was that OWS is allowed to go on, because it is *harmless*. I didn't question
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 08:51 AM
Sep 2012

anybody's right to assemble or protest. I question the efficacy of the movement/framing.

 

a geek named Bob

(2,715 posts)
26. Romulox, for giggles and grins...
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 08:59 AM
Sep 2012

When I finish this paper I'm chained to, I thought I'd start plotting out the various memes in Occupy.

At the moment, the only things I can really say, is that We've:
1.) Changed the national conversation.
2.) Started knitting together various groups, possibly into a functioning sub-culture.
3.) Stated building momentum for real change.

At the very least, it's been a LOT of fun!

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
21. Pointing out that Madison Ave. has a hold of it tends to make *my* point as much as yours, no?
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 09:35 PM
Sep 2012

Madison Ave. types are looking out for me? I doubt it.

It was brilliant marketing of an idea and it worked. Even the President has used it.


Worked to do what exactly? It seemed like it diffused the building tension, if anything. And one sanctioned by Madison Ave., no less?

Any chance there are countervailing forces at play here?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
22. Interesting.
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:12 PM
Sep 2012

What was sanctioned by Madison Ave was the success of the method by which OWS got its message understood so clearly all over the world. And they thought it was so good, they stole it. Which is fine, OWS wants people to steal and further disseminate their message. So even more success for them.

As experts in the field of messaging they know what they are talking about.

If they sanction THE MESSAGE, then that would be even better. But since I don't know that, I didn't say it.

Not everyone on Madison Ave is a bad guy btw. I know some people who work there and they are very creative, honest and Liberal in their thinking so it's possible that some people on Madison Ave sanctioned, not just the brilliant marketing by OWS of its message, but the message itself. Cool, that would be awesome.

So, the point I was making which you appear not to have understood was that the most experienced marketers in the world acknowledged that OWS got its message across loud and clear and concisely and anyone who didn't get it, didn't want to.







Romulox

(25,960 posts)
24. Every time someone disagrees with you, it's not because they "misunderstand"!
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 08:50 AM
Sep 2012
So, the point I was making which you appear not to have understood was that the most experienced marketers in the world acknowledged that OWS got its message across loud and clear and concisely and anyone who didn't get it, didn't want to.


You still can't define "it", that we don't get. You also can't define what (if anything!) has changed. OWS hasn't toppled a SINGLE powerful person. Not one.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
27. If you are among the minority who don't 'get it' then no, not much we can do to help you.
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 12:07 PM
Sep 2012

OWS ended the talk of Austerity in this country. A major accomplishment and not one they even expected to achieve so early on in this movement.

Btw, how much influence did the Civil Rights Movement have over powerful people in the first year of its existence?

Lol, I love these ridiculous arguments.

"You failed!! You didn't change the World in less than a year!! Omg!"

Lol, don't worry, they are even more determined now than they were back then at the beginning and have definitely changed things for people who without them would be homeless right now. They also got millions of people to move their money out of the Big Banks and forced them to end their plans to add more fees for services. That was fantastic. Showed how much power the people have when they choose to use it.

What's interesting about these arguments is how they have evolved since the beginning of the movement.

First it was:

"They will never stay in Zuccotti Park for more than a day"

Then: "It's just a bunch of spoiled white college students'. But then when most of the Unions joined them, it changed again.

I think someone has been documenting the talking points of the pro-Wall Street contingency. As someone said, when you see groups of people all using the same language and points to attack a Social Justice Movement, you know where they are coming from.



Tigress DEM

(7,887 posts)
30. NO, Madison Ave types are stealing it because it works.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 12:51 AM
Sep 2012

It makes the majority of people understand that 99% of US are NOT the 1% and we won't benefit from tax relief strategies aimed at making that group richer.

It makes the Occupy Movement a bit more clear. It's a simple answer to "Why?"

Solidarity lasts much longer than the kind of tension that was building. KNOWING that 99% of Americans is a CLEAR MAJORITY and that ANYTHING that is dumping on that much of America is a threat to our way of life and needs to be taught TO STOP DUMPING on US.

Sure, Wall Street and Madison Ave still want to find a way to survive financially but the Occupy Movement is still flowing like water and getting into everything. 99% of US are a majority and as long as we keep at it, the system of Democracy will be made to work for We the People again.

You will notice that the car industry during the *ush era were making gas guzzlers and nearly went into shock, when noise was made about getting away from that and going for fuel economy and alternative fuels. The auto industry said it would take something like 6 years to turn in that direction and it did and the industry nearly died.

The same kind of change is going to have to take place in Wall Street / Madison Ave. They will FIGHT it, but somehow, it has to become profitable for this country and by that I mean the Common Wealth for Wall Street to do it's thing. In the long run finding a way to put people ahead of profits will simply ensure that the people are still around to contribute to the profits.

We ALL do better when ALL of US do better.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
31. Right. It "works" to promote the goals of the moneymen who pay Madison Ave. types.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 09:57 AM
Sep 2012
Solidarity lasts much longer than the kind of tension that was building. KNOWING that 99% of Americans is a CLEAR MAJORITY and that ANYTHING that is dumping on that much of America is a threat to our way of life and needs to be taught TO STOP DUMPING on US.


Almost half of this group is voting for Mitt Romney. This "solidarity" is entirely imaginary.

Sure, Wall Street and Madison Ave still want to find a way to survive financially


"Survive"? Wall Street is now at pre-crash highs, even while employment and the broader economy stalls. "Survive"????

The same kind of change is going to have to take place in Wall Street / Madison Ave. They will FIGHT it, but somehow, it has to become profitable for this country and by that I mean the Common Wealth for Wall Street to do it's thing. In the long run finding a way to put people ahead of profits will simply ensure that the people are still around to contribute to the profits


Nothing like this has happened under the Obama admin, or since OWS. Wall Street dominates our political process today, just like in 2008, and just like in 2011.
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