It's a complex world.

And when sex becomes the current issue - watch out!

Everybody does it but few want to discuss it.

In fact, free-speech about sex is the most regulated speech there is. Eh?

Do you run everyone through your gay/not gay matrix and offer your verdict to the public?

You offer that you were doing some "research" into whether Stevens might be gay. Since you do not mention what research you actually did beyond stereotyping a single middle aged man I am left to wonder why you posted your post last night and then rehashed it again today.

In short, your "speculation" based on nothing more than stereotypical nonsense is, I believe, demeaning and actually hurts the cause of gay rights.

What? Please, grow the fuck up.

in history. That gay history has not been yet fully allowed
and appreciated even though many of the greatest people
on the planet have been gay. That if gay it should be an
important part of the story of who he is and how he died.

And if those who love equality do not write the story of
the man, those who hate homosexuality will do so.

That was my take from the thread referred to -- so I think
even if you read it, recommend re-reading, more compassionately.

It is not about disrespecting the man's privacy, it is about
honoring him. Even if you don't agree, it doesn't mean
you're right.

With as much hostility as there is out there, it's a decision that I think it still needs to be made by the person. Once they are dead, they should be allowed to rest in peace at least for a while and their family grieve the loss of the person they loved before having to confront an issue like this without that person there.

Posting here, assuming none of his family frequents the DU probably isn't any huge infringement, but I'd give the family some time to grieve the person they knew before throwing any real curves. Like writing books or letters to the editor in widely read papers.

We here at DU honor Ambassador Chris Stevens for who he was and whatever choices he made personally that went with that don't diminish him in our eyes. He was "boots on the ground" for the cause of Democracy and gave his life to the cause of establishing peace in uncertain times. He was as front line as any soldier is because the war moved to his front door and took him from us.

The original OP didn't seem to be about outing him as much
as trying to learn more about him. But I agree with you.

does everyone have to spend 15 minutes reading when you could spend 30 seconds summarizing?

Shame on you.

Fact free one liner replies do sometimes make DU unbearable.

Cheers!

So rethink what you wrote and try to learn something.

Is that a good thing to have to do? To let others decide what words of yours are to be displayed?

Some folks just can't express themselves while constraining to the mores of their listeners.

It all comes down to self-control, doesn't it?

It's just your curiosity...people get banned for all sorts of things some might consider mild

And what you are doing is controlling your speech so that you don't make someone real mad and cause you to be shut up forever.

We all do it. I'm just using this subthread to bring it out of the closet.

It's not a slur.

"Slur" is in the mind of the offended.

On religious views...
"Slur" is in the mind of the offended.

In Racism and prejudice,
"Slur" is in the mind of the offended.

It's the offended that need to evolve not those who question or have an opinion.

It can't be a slur.

+1

Last edited Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:00 PM - Edit history (1)

speculation that the ambassador was gay and I do not believe that reaction has anything to do with thinking being gay is "wrong" or something that should bring shame.

I think most feel it is no more our business than would be our wondering how much money he made, details of his health, or anything else that is uniquely personal. If he was gay (and I don't think any of us know either way), it would appear that he chose not to make that public. That should have been his decision to make--even in death IMO.

I suspect others may also be wondering if you were about to tie his sad death to some kind of LGBT-hate motivation on the part of the attackers. That, alone would have particularly disturbed me, since that would have been a level of speculation on motivation that could only inflame further.

I think you are drawing very wrong conclusions from your experience with your thread.

But the viciousness with which he was attacked for saying he was wrong was over the top.

the possibility that someone had once dated Lady Gaga, suffered from acid indigestion, or was secretly filthy rich?

"Hey, guess what! I was doing some research, and I think Captain Sparrow had a couple million in the bank, and once dated Lady Gaga."

"Really? That's awesome! Who knew? And did he really date Lady Gaga? That's really interesting, thanks."

or

"Hey, guess what! I was doing some research, and I think Captain Sparrow may have been gay!!!

"Gay!!! OMG, nooooo!!! How dare you, you despicable monster!!! And before the body is even cold!!! What would the family say? Oh, no, no, please, noooo! (Much crying, wailing, and gnashing of teeth) You should delete this OP immediately!

Sorry, I'm not buying what your selling here.

nobody would have bothered to do that research at all. Why "research" (if noting that he was single is called research) into his suppose gayness? To use it as a political tool, that's why. To use this man's death to advance a political agenda, that's why. The audience knew EXACTLY what dsc was up to, and rightly didn't like it.

Simply noting that a person is single in their middle years and then using that fact to speculate as to their sexual orientation is NOT RESEARCH.

Did the OP read all that Stevens has written or do anything else that might be considered "research"? I doubt it and the OP has offered NOTHING other than the observation that the man was middle aged and not married. THAT is the definition of stereotyping and the OP should be called out on that fact.

But since he is gay himself it is supposed to be ok.

I said NOTHING to warrant this ugly and accusatory response. NOTHING.

but I will keep my verdict to myself.

I think it was unnecessary to rat out Stevens while he was being buried. If he was gay..it was obviously his choice NOT to make it public.
Sorry, but it was not your prerogative to 'out him' or make people wonder. But, I'm sorry you are crying! Things don't always work out like we'd like them to and I'm sure your motive were pure.

Please reread the entire OP. You might want to consider editing your post then. To suggest that dsc is crying because "things don't always work out like we'd like them to" is incredibly insensitive in light of his OP.

you know how I feel. I am so sorry.

most of us here ( and I include myself ) would not consider ourselves to be anti-gay or bigots of any kind. However, we all have that primitive fear of "those who are not like Us ", and it does have some effect. For example, if we see a skit on TV where an actor is acting like a stereotypical homosexual character ( Charles Nelson Riley or Paul Lind ) , we laugh even though nothing funny has been said. If we hear " gay|" joke , we laugh.

If you put me ( a middle-aged, middle-class white male { who does not make 250k/year}) in a room with 100 young black men who speak like stereotypical " gangsta's ", I would be uncomfortable. If you put me in a room with 100 young black men who were wearing Izod sweaters and talking like college students, I would feel less so.

I think it is perfectly natural to be uncomfortable around those that are different from ones' self; The best we can do is to acknowledge that the fear is not an excuse to treat our brothers and sisters with anything but respect. And to make sure the next generation improves on this idea...

we all have but one life and we should be entitled to happiness. It shouldn't matter who you love. But just because a person never married doesn't make them gay. I have a sister who nevered married. She never married because she hasn't found the right person for her. She came close once but it ended because she was in her early 20s and she wasn't ready yet. She said when she married it would be for life and wouldn't settle for what she saw in some of the cases that came into her office. She is now 64 and she said she will never marry. She said she has no regrets that she is lucky that she has lots of nieces and nephews. She is happy. Remember not all people want to marry.

as I remember from a number of threads. So, I'm having a small problem with your "letting people live their own lives" statement.

I'm not surprised that a person who is gay would look to see if this ambassador might be gay. I can't see any problem with doing that research. No problem with it at all. It doesn't matter to me if he was gay, but I can see how it would be of interest to the LGBT community. Can't you?

the last question I would ask because I would want to know if that person can do the job. Asking those kinds of questions could get you sued any way. Those are personal questions. I don't have a problem with a woman feeding her baby as long as she covers up. For me I wouldn't want the attention. Besides that I never took my child out when I knew it was close to his feeding or nap time. I always worried about peoples feelings. If I did go out I made sure I had plenty of bottles and diapers for him.

I'm familiar with your position, thanks.

I have read the New Testament in every edition several times. I have tried many times to read the OT but can't get through it. I finally realized that all that matters to me as far as christianity goes in my faith is what is written in the NT.

I believe that people use the OT to avoid the teachings of Christ.


Sorry to go off topic. It was unfortunately rather predictable. Although we have some homophobes here, I'm inclined to believe that most of the offending responses came from reactionary political reflexes rather than from deeply held beliefs. Although where those abhorrent thoughts come from is of little comfort. I hope your thread acts as a healing balm that makes people more aware of how hurtful words, and the ignorance behind them, can be.

you were accusing of outing a dead man who can't speak for himself...a despicable practice that should only be used on hypocritical closet cases who actively work against equality for gays and lesbians.
Your doubling-down and play for sympathy here is offensive to me.
We have plenty of courageous openly gay men and women who are making positive change all around us...let's celebrate them instead of trying to hitch our wagon to someone who may not have even been one of us shall we?

/unrec

DSC was outing a man who can't speak for himself, based on flimsy evidence, for his own agenda. The fact that DSC is gay doesn't change that.

your point?

or not, the opening line appears somewhat shocking and irrelevant to the issue of the attack and his murder

I think the opening line could have been couched better, at first it appears to be an attack on the LGBT community

does NOT mean the person is gay. Not that there's anything wrong with it if they are, but they could be someone who just does not get involved, is too busy, is of low sex drive, doesn't feel confident enough, doesn't meet anyone (that could happen easily in his job category) suitable or who they like.

their bedrooms...as long as it's between consenting adults. You can't tell your heart what to do. The issue is - ALL people should be treated the same and have equal rights and opportunities in this country. Forget the term "gay". Do you realize how many have tried it? If rapists and child molesters, and there are plenty of them, have the right to get married and everything that comes with it, then everybody else should also. LBGT's have given their lives for this country. It's just as much theirs as anyones. Thank you, Ambassador Stevens, for giving your life in the line of duty....no matter who you love.

....therefore, any good a gay person does in the world is diminished.

King David, Beloved of God, who sang "of mercy and of justice" where does one start?

Perhaps when he had, without mercy (though perhaps with singing), two-thirds of the surrendered Moabites (men, women, children) killed like dogs (2-Samuel). This, even though he was related to the Moabites, and though they had helped him when he was in exile.

Or, when after he defeated the Edomites, he attempted the genocide of that entire nation. To his dismay, some escaped to Egypt

Or perhaps with his torture of the entire population of Ramah, the capital city of the defeated Ammonites, with saws, axes, and fire.

Oh. Right, we were going to speak of Dave’s love.

Well he had quite a love life - at least eight wives, and ten concubines.

Perhaps most telling of the kind of man God loves is that Dave coveted Uriah’s wife, so Dave arranged for Uriah to die in battle so Dave could then take Uriah’s wife Bathsheba - which he did.

It just goes on, and on. To any rational person, “Beloved of God” King Davy seems like a hideous monster without restraint or moral values.

I too cried at church, until the sweet light of reason rescued me from the savagery of ancient Mideastern tribal myth and superstition.

But I think he is still worthy of study even if for how not to behave at times.

But since it isn't. How about this question. What if Chris Stevens had been a lot like King David? Only instead of having a bunch of wives, he had a whole lot of girlfriends. Perhaps promiscuous people need someone to look up to as well. I am being somewhat serious as promiscuity is still looked down on and people seem to think it's ok to bash people for having more than one partner in their lives especially women. But, I doubt we will ever ever say it's ok for a woman to have or have had many different lovers. No one will ever call her a role model no matter what other things she has done with her life. For men it's not so bad and some people even think it's ok. But, oddly enough when someone a male has a job like Stevens they aren't looked so kindly on if they have what some people call loose morals.

I would have a problem, as would the State Dept, with someone behaving in such a way as making blackmail a possibility.

or it is not a person of interest at the State Department.

Just drop it. Who cares if he was gay or not. Maybe he was just dedicated to his profession? Many people do not engage with relationships of the opposite sex. That doesn't mean they are gay or straight.

It matters to me, because if he was gay, he clearly had to keep his identity a secret.

Since dsc and I are gay, please consider that we might have a different perspective on this than the perspectives held by straight people. Please respect our point of view. Thanks.

Many posters on here, of all sexual orientations, are asking the merely curious, to respect the dead. And being this is the second thread, it begins to feel somehow beyond perspective and bordering manipulative.

I don't know dsc well at all and haven't discuss this with him, so I don't really know what is going through his mind, but this OP is really horrific and I think that a lot of people responding to this thread are blowing right past the OP and continuing to pile on dsc for another thread.

If you reread the OP, think about the way that most gay people have to live their lives, and the impact that has on young people like the young woman who is now in the coma, and on her family member who is now estranged from the family. These kinds of attitudes - that literally kill - are the same attitudes that force many professional gay people into the closet.

The fact that you are gay doesn't change the fact that you are randomly speculating that a guy was gay, with zero evidence one way or the other. It is offensive when homophobes speculate that people are gay. It is also offensive when gays speculate that people are gay for their own agenda.

He was an ambassador. He apparently wanted to be known by his work related achievements. If a bunch of freepers were saying "but he was gay", you would be outraged, I am sure.

But for you to use his private life for your own agenda.. well that's ok I guess.

DSC got up in church to use this guys private life for his own agenda. The crowd didn't react well. That's a fact.

The fact that there a cousin with a bad story justifies him outing Stevens?


What does the one have to do with the other?

about their sexual orientation. You two should get your stories straight. What is it private? Or casual cocktail chatter?

I am sure you think the thread is a scandal. I should be happy you didn't mention child molesting and bestiality which is what the people who believe as you do usually use.

How does being prurient about some dead stranger's sex life ... including your disgusting comparisons ... equate being gay with being a "two-timer", which to my understanding means having more than one girlfriend or boyfriend at a time.

Can't be married, for then it would be infidelity. So the term "two-timing" reinforces one of the most egregious myths of gay relationships, inferring unfaithfulness and multiplicity of partners. My two nieces have always been monogomous with their partners. So, I resent the implication.

Nor is the thread "a scandal". The basis is irretrievably flawed.

Everyone who doesn't agree with you must be a homophone who thinks you are a child molester and into bestiality.

Take it somewhere else.

You came here looking for people to give you sympathy. It turns out you were being a dick so nobody cares. get over it.

naaman fletcher, you're being a dick.

You could have handled this thread one of two ways.

You could have taken issue with the premise and offered an argument. You could have taken issue with the premise and simply accused the poster of being a dick.

You chose the latter.


Your post was alerted and I was on the jury. I almost never vote to hide a post and voted to hide yours because I believed it was a personal attack and didn't even offer a chance to discuss the issue further. You ran from the discussion and resorted to name-calling.

Those actions, in my book, constitute being a dick.

Was that he was looking for sympathy, but the conclusion in his church and here is that he was out of line. His response was to go and accuse people of being homophobes.

I didn't run from any discussion.

The jury agreed with me.

I don't believe that anybody was looking for sympathy. I do believe that you could have stated your opinion in a much less dickish manner.

Look, I've said what I wanted to say and I assume that you have too. Chalk it up to a difference of opinion. I feel no need to keep this thing going.

is going to get pretty quiet.

People speculate on all kinds of things here, all the time. Why is this so egregious?

we speculate, but speculating on the sex life of a man, who wanted to be known by his professional accomplishments, is in my opinion distasteful. The crowd at DSC's church obviously agreed.

Nope.

I don't have problems with morons in church who believe in silly shit, because I don't go to church where by definition people believe in silly shit.

There isn't anything to say.

No one knows what really happened and whatever did occur, we don't have to bring our dramas to it.

((dsc))

It's hard. I feel sad with you.

It is DSC's RIGHT to speculate on whatever they see fit and if you find it offensive, well, I guess that's just tough, now isn't it?? For the people who are telling the OP to stop posting on this topic or that they should not speak their mind, you should never try to infringe on another American's most sacred right.

and another privately? They believe that they have the right to privately regulate another's speculation, but that there should be no public repercussions for purposely hiding behind free speech to endanger the lives of others?

What a bizarre position.

BTW, do you think the teachers in Chicago had a right to protest by jamming the streets of the city and waving signs and chanting? It has been stated over and over that the killing of Stevens had nothing to do with the protests.

Do you remember when the Occupy members burned the flag on the steps of that public building? What did you think about that?

That isn't a challenge to an opinion, that is saying, "Don't state that opinion."

That seems pretty clear cut to me.

does not equate with actually stopping someone from stating that opinion
freedom of speech is a two-way street you know...

learn to read please...

I'll self-delete.

It will help you to understand free speech.

Is your minister unfamiliar with, say, the Beatitudes?

would not think of using King David's love life as an excuse for anything. Good lord have mercy...literally.

he is not around to talk about himself. And I think his death had nothing to do with his sexuality. But gayness should not equal anything other then simply being a part of that person. There is nothing wrong with being gay. It would like saying there is something wrong with being straight. It is a natural extension of a person. This society and the world has treated LGBT people very bad over the years and still continues to do so. For that, I would cry with you.

RIP ... Rest in Peace.

This is the cruelest thread I have ever seen on DU.

No one of them obviously, you aren't.

Last edited Mon Sep 17, 2012, 01:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Why are you so hostile? It's a sadness that people can't describe their feelings without being labeled.

A young lady is in a coma because her parents rejected her and she attempted suicide. It is affected her cousin and in turn has affected dsc.

You have ZERO compassion. What a damn shame. I thought better of you than that. Not anymore.

In my opinion, sermons should be focused on the New Testament and its relationship to modern life.
Christian sermons, that is.

good luck DSC, thanks Yardwork

Reading your heartfelt post made me cry. Yes we still have a way to go.

WE WILL KICK ASS; yes INDEED

I'm actually here pretty regularly but mostly in the middle of the night

Some of the replies in this thread are unbelievably callous and over the top. I see so little compassion whatsoever for a young lady and her cousin who are both suffering horrible by a parents rejection simple because the young lady is gay. This is why young gay people feel there is no hope and attempt and oftentimes succeed at suicide.

I'm sad for the horror your friend at church is being put through and for the pain that young lady must have felt to attempt to take her own life. There are too many young gay people who meet unnecessary heartache, death, and horror at the hands of parents and others who reject them. There really are no words to express how horrible that must be for her and her cousin. To me, the fact that you cried, shows you have a true depth of compassion.

She gave advice which was followed and then a catastrophe happened she has to be just feeling horrible.