Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
75 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Harry Reid: "Romney could be one of those who paid no federal income tax" (Original Post) WI_DEM Sep 2012 OP
I somehow knew that one was coming. Jackpine Radical Sep 2012 #1
me too tk2kewl Sep 2012 #13
Thanks you, Senator Reid. I knew you wouldn't let this one slip by. TxVietVet Sep 2012 #69
get 'em Harry! FirstLight Sep 2012 #2
Sink those teeth into that priviledged ankle flamingdem Sep 2012 #11
Absolutely right! Preach it, Harry! nt Tennessee Gal Sep 2012 #3
Give 'em hell, Harry nichomachus Sep 2012 #4
Thank you Harry nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #5
4,000 households that earned more than $1 million last year paid no federal income taxes jsr Sep 2012 #6
Some graphics from The Boston Globe site on "the 47%"... FailureToCommunicate Sep 2012 #37
Keep it up, Harry! hifiguy Sep 2012 #7
Give 'em hell, Harry!!! nt msanthrope Sep 2012 #8
The Media has their perfect opening... WHERE ARE THE TAX RETURNS????? progressivebydesign Sep 2012 #9
Trumpster is also going to yell to O "where are your college transcripts"! Iliyah Sep 2012 #20
As always, it's up to us to push the Poodle Press to do their job tavalon Sep 2012 #73
What does he mean "for all we know"? hughee99 Sep 2012 #10
Yeah, it kind of seems like he's backing off the statements from before a little bit.... cbdo2007 Sep 2012 #17
yeah heaven05 Sep 2012 #19
I thought Reid said that someone TOLD him Rmoney paid no taxes. VWolf Sep 2012 #43
You are right. hughee99 Sep 2012 #44
it's kind of a Dare to get Romney to release it, and if he wont JI7 Sep 2012 #52
Doesn't that mean Romney will vote for Obama? RevStPatrick Sep 2012 #12
That's actually a great line, reflection Sep 2012 #39
Bingo ! Berlum Sep 2012 #14
Yup. rMoney Math: show us the numbers Willard! Warren Stupidity Sep 2012 #15
That is wherre this conversaion needs to be. robinlynne Sep 2012 #16
i'm really starting to love that guy. barbtries Sep 2012 #18
A thousand cuts ... IggleDoer Sep 2012 #21
We need to study IRS 101 BlueStreak Sep 2012 #22
And regarding seniors BlueStreak Sep 2012 #25
Seniors do pay taxes on IRA accounts... meow2u3 Sep 2012 #41
Not if you have a withdrawal plan that stays under your deductions BlueStreak Sep 2012 #51
Well, in ten years what jobs has he had that he was paid for? He turned down payment for his job as NotThisTime Sep 2012 #26
I have never seen capital gains taxes NOT included in income taxes joeglow3 Sep 2012 #31
They are included on the same return, but they are two completely separate tax calculations. BlueStreak Sep 2012 #32
So is AMT, but that is considered an income tax. joeglow3 Sep 2012 #46
Let Romney make that argument. He paid no tax on ordinary income. He is in the 47%. BlueStreak Sep 2012 #47
Here is an explanation of terminology from IRS spooky3 Sep 2012 #56
It says lothing of the sort. BlueStreak Sep 2012 #58
Capital gains are one type of income; so are spooky3 Sep 2012 #61
Sorry, don't see this as a big accomplishment. Senate floor? cr8tvlde Sep 2012 #23
Whining? Seriously? Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #53
Let me state it differently...no one sees it there and it's an easy jab. cr8tvlde Sep 2012 #54
Maybe you think Obama LakeErieLiberal Sep 2012 #65
No, I don't think Obama should do that. I think that the Dems should cr8tvlde Sep 2012 #74
False Equivlency Suji to Seoul Sep 2012 #67
I think you missed the point. It's comparative. cr8tvlde Sep 2012 #75
I was hoping he'd say this!!!! NotThisTime Sep 2012 #24
Come out of the closet Mitt, you are a security threat. Democrats_win Sep 2012 #27
Oh, snap! Emit Sep 2012 #28
You Go Guy Liberalynn Sep 2012 #29
He admitted it during the Republican Debate. RM hit it last night Blue State Bandit Sep 2012 #30
Yep, he actually did say that. We rewound and replayed it several times. calimary Sep 2012 #63
Weeeee! LOL n/t Oilwellian Sep 2012 #33
Perfect! Mitt's gaffes are starting to merge together. reformist2 Sep 2012 #34
I think Harry or his staff might read DU. Posted yesterday that I hoped Harry would call Mitt out diabeticman Sep 2012 #35
You and half the rest of us tavalon Sep 2012 #72
Bam! There it is. nt Bobbie Jo Sep 2012 #36
You're welcome! I emailed Harry this morning . . . ncgrits Sep 2012 #38
BOOM goes the dynamite! hahaha!!! right back at you 1%er Rmoney! n/t BREMPRO Sep 2012 #40
Keep up the pressure - looks like Rmoney is a con man! polichick Sep 2012 #42
For all we know. . . Ha Ha Well said Harry! B Calm Sep 2012 #45
for all we know............ mountain grammy Sep 2012 #48
should of said he is... not for all we know.... trailmonkee Sep 2012 #49
love it harry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! spanone Sep 2012 #50
Harry is so right riverbendviewgal Sep 2012 #55
And then they have the balls to call us freeloaders. Initech Sep 2012 #57
Go Harry!!!!!!!!!!!! laruemtt Sep 2012 #59
Rmoney JEB Sep 2012 #60
Very likely. But he expects food, housing from his ill-gotten gains. freshwest Sep 2012 #62
Still not sure why Reid et.al are not stating the obvious. WinstonSmith4740 Sep 2012 #64
Oooo Harry, you are mean one. geckosfeet Sep 2012 #66
zing! lol nt Zorra Sep 2012 #68
Ya think! Cha Sep 2012 #70
Who here did not know this was coming? tavalon Sep 2012 #71
 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
5. Thank you Harry
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 12:27 PM
Sep 2012

Back we go to the tax returns.


Oh and moocher, does apply to Mitt in this case, fully.

progressivebydesign

(19,458 posts)
9. The Media has their perfect opening... WHERE ARE THE TAX RETURNS?????
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 12:31 PM
Sep 2012

C'mon media!!! It's been dropped in your lap. The Swine King has come out against people who "don't pay taxes" and yet.. NO ONE knows what HE paid!!

Geez. Do your job.

Iliyah

(25,111 posts)
20. Trumpster is also going to yell to O "where are your college transcripts"!
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 01:24 PM
Sep 2012

Then, "Dirty" Harry can yell back after Mittens show his tax returns and by the way since O has shown his tax returns how about Mittens showing his "college transcripts" as well.

I think besides not paying % of taxes, if any, it will also prove that Mittens lied to Mass about being qualified to run for governor. It will show on paper that he fucking lied and many Americans especially the GOP base probably won't believe anywho since they are the ones trashing themselves re: 47%.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
10. What does he mean "for all we know"?
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 12:31 PM
Sep 2012

He does know. Mitt Romney paid no income taxes for 10 years. He's said it many times already.

cbdo2007

(9,213 posts)
17. Yeah, it kind of seems like he's backing off the statements from before a little bit....
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 12:58 PM
Sep 2012

what is this "could" BS??? He's already point blank said Romney paid $0 in taxes and now he's saying "could".

Reid better not blow this for us.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
19. yeah
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 01:19 PM
Sep 2012

well I was really surprised he came out on the tax issue, since in the last three years he and Pelosi didn't seem that firmly in Obama's camp. The blue dogs and rethugs kept them cowering in the corner as I see it.

VWolf

(3,944 posts)
43. I thought Reid said that someone TOLD him Rmoney paid no taxes.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:47 PM
Sep 2012

That's the way I remember it. So he's not backpedalling.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
44. You are right.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:54 PM
Sep 2012

But Reid trusts the source (essentially vouching for him). Reid has already put his credibility on the line for this.

There are several ways he could have meant it that wouldn't be backpedaling either.

"For all we know" as in WE, collectively, since we don't all have access to Reid's source and he may assume that we all don't automatically take his word for it.

JI7

(89,182 posts)
52. it's kind of a Dare to get Romney to release it, and if he wont
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 05:33 PM
Sep 2012

it must mean he hasn't paid any.

barbtries

(28,703 posts)
18. i'm really starting to love that guy.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 01:03 PM
Sep 2012

i think when i get off work i'll go watch his DNC speech again.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
22. We need to study IRS 101
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 01:39 PM
Sep 2012

Romney says 47% don't pay federal income taxes. First off, that's a dated statistic. Secondly it includes all sorts of people you would not expect to pay taxes (children, students, disables, unemployed, and elderly) plus it also includes some people you might think WOULD pay taxes. Specifically most active military (non-officers) would pay no Federal income tax).

But set all of that aside. There are three important terms to understand: Capital gains, Payroll taxes, Federal income tax. They are all part of the Federal taxes and everybody who is employed pays some of that.

Capital gains. This is supposed to be a a tax on the increased value of assets put at risk investing in our economy. In fact, over the years, the plutocrats have done two things. 1) they have added loopholes for themselves that makes it legal to launder their income to show as capital gains instead of ordinary income subject to the normal Federal income tax; and 2) they have bribed politicians to create a special low "millionaire's rate for this income. Currently it is 15%. It was 20% under Clinton. The Ryan budget makes it 0%

Payroll taxes This is the taxes to fund Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and unemployment insurance. Every worker pays this, but it is subject to a cap of $106,800 (for 2011). Any income above that amount pays not a single penny to support these programs. In other words it is as regressive a tax as there ever way.

Federal income tax This is the tax charged on ordinary income after various deductions. This is the tax that Romney was citing in his 47% claim.

Now here's the key point, even for the one Romney tax return we do have (2010), almost all of his income is laundered through capital gains. He pays virtually no Federal Income Tax. When Reid says his source states that Romney paid no Federal Income Tax for 10 years, that is almost certainly true because instead of paying income tax, he used loopholes to pay the cheaper capital gains tax instead. We know this is true because a) his 2010 return says so, and b) he has said that he didn't pay less than 13% in any of the other years. But the Cap Gains rate is 15%, so he could not be paying very much Federal Income Tax (a 36% rate) and end up with a net rate of 13%.

Or to put it another way, Take your total income, subtracts 10% of that for the tithe you paid to the Mormon church, and pay 15% of the rest. That's how you get to 13%. He paid NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX. Harry was right. He paid some capital gains, but he didn't pay any income tax.

He is in the 47%.

We really need to hammer that, and the key it to get people to understand that neither capital gains nor payroll taxes are "Federal Income Tax".

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
25. And regarding seniors
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 01:44 PM
Sep 2012

Let me point out that there are a lot of seniors who have a lot of savings over their lifetime. It is quite normal for a person in that situation to have most of their money in tax-deferred accounts (IRAs and 401Ks). They can recognize their gains a little each year, and often stay under the point where they would have to pay Federal income tax. But they may have to pay some capital gains, just like Romney. That is why almost all seniors are in the 47%

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
51. Not if you have a withdrawal plan that stays under your deductions
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 05:30 PM
Sep 2012

It all depends on how much money you have. If you need to draw more than about $16,000 per couple, then you will pay some tax on the excess, but it will be at the lowest marginal rate. Social Security benefits complicate those calculations.

NotThisTime

(3,657 posts)
26. Well, in ten years what jobs has he had that he was paid for? He turned down payment for his job as
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 01:46 PM
Sep 2012

Governor, perhaps the only income he's reported in ten years are speaking fee's, which as we all know don't add up to much, only 300 grand for the one year we do know about.

What a slimeball....

 

joeglow3

(6,228 posts)
31. I have never seen capital gains taxes NOT included in income taxes
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:11 PM
Sep 2012

And I say this as 12 year CPA who works in income taxes.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
47. Let Romney make that argument. He paid no tax on ordinary income. He is in the 47%.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 03:13 PM
Sep 2012

He will say, "Oh, but I paid capital gains taxes."

And the response to that is "Most of the 47% paid payroll taxes. What's your point? You did not pay any INCOME taxes. You used a millionaire's loophole to launder your INCOME to make it look like capital gains."

spooky3

(34,303 posts)
56. Here is an explanation of terminology from IRS
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:05 PM
Sep 2012
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Ten-Important-Facts-About-Capital-Gains-and-Losses

income from capital gains and losses is still income subject to income tax and is different from FICA, unemployment tax, etc.
 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
58. It says lothing of the sort.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:17 PM
Sep 2012

In fact, it says that capital gains are completely different from ordinary income. It has its own tax rate. It has its own rules. And you can carry forward capital losses.

I understand the point you are making, and if you ask 100 accountants, 97 would probably agree with you. But this is not about what accountants think. It is about making a point that the average non-accountant can understand. And this is exactly the point that Harry Reid is making. There is no chance that Romney went a decade without paying some capital gains. Zero probability of that. The source was clearly talking about ordinary income tax.

Let Mitt try to explain his way out of that. He is the one creating the problem by not revealing his tax returns.

"Oh, we know you probably paid some capital gains, which everybody knows is the special low loophole rate for millionaires. But did you pay any real taxes -- you know the regular takes you accuse 47% of the public of not paying? It sure sounds like you might be one of those 47%. Don't you think it is time that you came clean and released those returns?"


Please, we don't need to hear from any more accountants on this point. Thank you for your service, but your technical jargon isn't relevant here.

spooky3

(34,303 posts)
61. Capital gains are one type of income; so are
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:31 PM
Sep 2012

Salaries, rental income, royalties, etc. CG etc. are treated in particular ways by income tax law, but that doesn't change the fact that these are all subject to income tax.

If you are making the argument on the basis of language, then the language should be precise and consistent with current usage. Maybe it would be better to make the argument on a different basis.

cr8tvlde

(1,185 posts)
23. Sorry, don't see this as a big accomplishment. Senate floor?
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 01:42 PM
Sep 2012

More like whining.

Here's what I'd consider proactive and appropriate ... No tax returns, no debate. Deal with it. Obama should not debate a potential felon or tax evader. We just don't know, now do we?

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
53. Whining? Seriously?
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 05:37 PM
Sep 2012

Personally, I'm a Democrat and I like seeing our Senate Majority Leader take another jab at Mitters. Your comment makes no sense to me.

cr8tvlde

(1,185 posts)
54. Let me state it differently...no one sees it there and it's an easy jab.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 05:56 PM
Sep 2012

They do that all day long, at our expense, ad nauseum. OK so it's wishy washy...is that better?

But a few on the Democratic team need to get out of the safe walls of the Senate, the Beltway and DC and do some battle. As I see it, we're waiting on the Republicans to do it. Please link me to the publicly outraged Democrats, (other than Nancy Pelosi's statement) as I might be missing something.

Oh, and my "no tax returns, no debate" is what I believe a chorus of Democrats should be shouting and demanding. Something just a bit like the "birthers"???? My long form for your 1040s. They have called him a communist, a socialist, an illegal, bashed his mother and grandmother and his wife ...need I go on?

Obama might be debating a freaking felon, for all we know.

That, IMHO, would be a gutsy, non-whiny demand.

LakeErieLiberal

(37 posts)
65. Maybe you think Obama
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 10:07 PM
Sep 2012

should do that. But, it's good to have Reid being the attack dog goading Romney, no? Personally, I think Obama should play above that game like he's cooly been doing so far and let the other high powered Dems show no mercy.

cr8tvlde

(1,185 posts)
74. No, I don't think Obama should do that. I think that the Dems should
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 12:17 PM
Sep 2012

should at least have been as hard on Romney as his OWN PARTY was on him. They didn't say it on the Senate floor, They said it to him, via news media outlets and basically, ripped him a new whatever.

I'm grateful for Harry Reid's comments, really, but the Dems have been silent, for the most part.

 

Suji to Seoul

(2,035 posts)
67. False Equivlency
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 11:13 PM
Sep 2012
Oh, and my "no tax returns, no debate" is what I believe a chorus of Democrats should be shouting and demanding. Something just a bit like the "birthers"???? My long form for your 1040s. They have called him a communist, a socialist, an illegal, bashed his mother and grandmother and his wife ...need I go on?


Obama released his BC. Rmoney refuses to release anything but hot gas.

I'm tired of "they both do it" crap.

cr8tvlde

(1,185 posts)
75. I think you missed the point. It's comparative.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 12:50 PM
Sep 2012

Four years of birther crap heaped on our President? Idiots running all over the world looking for dirt so they could internationally humiliate the (mixed race) leader of the free world and those who voted for him...idiots like Orly Tait and Shurf Arpejo...to mention a couple.

Mr. Romney wants to be leader of the free world.

And it's false equivalency to demand what every other politician, including Mr. Romney's VP picks, has been required to disclose...tax returns...to prove he's a legal, tax-abiding citizen?

False equivalency to ask Mr. Romney to stop denigrating 47% of our country folk for not earning enough to pay (income) taxes and prove that he did? Even if he didn't pay taxes legally, I'm OK with that...he's rich and it's legal. But he's making up new disclosure rules just for himself. Imagine if President Obama during the "birther scandal" had acted like Mitt...tax returns??? Can't make me.

And one more thing again ... I want to know if our President is debating a felon. He just might be a felon, or a tax cheat, and no he won't make it into the Presidency. But like so many things, he gets away with mocking normal people and normal procedures and even his own father's recommendations just because he's rich.

Mitt/Ann: Read my lips ... No Tax Returns. I've told "you people" all you need to know (about that). Now, please vote for me.

Me: Obama has proven over and over again his citizenship and his right to hold his office. Mitt has not proved he is qualified and "not bribable" once. Therefore, putting them on the same footing/stage/as equivalents at this point, is wrong.

Democrats_win

(6,539 posts)
27. Come out of the closet Mitt, you are a security threat.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 01:50 PM
Sep 2012

Will Russian spies use this to make him work against America? Russia, which Palin can clearly see, is our greatest threat.

calimary

(80,700 posts)
63. Yep, he actually did say that. We rewound and replayed it several times.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 08:08 PM
Sep 2012

He only paid capital gains - telling newt gingrich that if gingrich's let's-get-rid-of-the-capital-gains-tax tax reform plan were to pass, it would have meant he (wrongney) paid NO taxes for - what did he say? A couple of years?

WinstonSmith4740

(3,048 posts)
64. Still not sure why Reid et.al are not stating the obvious.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 09:21 PM
Sep 2012

Mitt must have filed for an extension in order to have until 10/15 to file his taxes. When you file for an extension, you must file an approximation of what you feel you will owe. If you think you'll owe money, you DON'T get an extension paying, just filing. So somewhere, there must either be a) a check in the amount of estimate of taxes owed, or b) a statement claiming you will owe no taxes. Let's see it.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Harry Reid: "Romney...