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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHarry Reid: "Romney could be one of those who paid no federal income tax"
Bonus Quote of the Day
"For all we know, Mitt Romney could be one of those who paid no federal income tax."
-- Sen. Harry Reid, in a speech on the Senate floor today.
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2012/09/19/bonus_quote_of_the_day.html
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)<pats self on back>
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021364281
TxVietVet
(1,905 posts)Keep it up. The heat is on.
FirstLight
(13,352 posts)let's see those TAX RETURNS!!!!!
flamingdem
(39,304 posts)pittbull Harry!
Tennessee Gal
(6,160 posts)nichomachus
(12,754 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Back we go to the tax returns.
Oh and moocher, does apply to Mitt in this case, fully.
jsr
(7,712 posts)Many fallacies mark Romneys depiction of the 47%
By Callum Borchers
Globe Correspondent / September 19, 2012
FailureToCommunicate
(13,989 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)This slow, constant needle will eventually get to Willard.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)progressivebydesign
(19,458 posts)C'mon media!!! It's been dropped in your lap. The Swine King has come out against people who "don't pay taxes" and yet.. NO ONE knows what HE paid!!
Geez. Do your job.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)Then, "Dirty" Harry can yell back after Mittens show his tax returns and by the way since O has shown his tax returns how about Mittens showing his "college transcripts" as well.
I think besides not paying % of taxes, if any, it will also prove that Mittens lied to Mass about being qualified to run for governor. It will show on paper that he fucking lied and many Americans especially the GOP base probably won't believe anywho since they are the ones trashing themselves re: 47%.
tavalon
(27,985 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)He does know. Mitt Romney paid no income taxes for 10 years. He's said it many times already.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)what is this "could" BS??? He's already point blank said Romney paid $0 in taxes and now he's saying "could".
Reid better not blow this for us.
well I was really surprised he came out on the tax issue, since in the last three years he and Pelosi didn't seem that firmly in Obama's camp. The blue dogs and rethugs kept them cowering in the corner as I see it.
VWolf
(3,944 posts)That's the way I remember it. So he's not backpedalling.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)But Reid trusts the source (essentially vouching for him). Reid has already put his credibility on the line for this.
There are several ways he could have meant it that wouldn't be backpedaling either.
"For all we know" as in WE, collectively, since we don't all have access to Reid's source and he may assume that we all don't automatically take his word for it.
JI7
(89,182 posts)it must mean he hasn't paid any.
RevStPatrick
(2,208 posts)If he's in that 47%?
Isn't that how it works, Mitt?
reflection
(6,286 posts)and Obama should use it in the debates if Romney gets too chippy.
Berlum
(7,044 posts)Nice to be a tax-free Republican
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)robinlynne
(15,481 posts)barbtries
(28,703 posts)i think when i get off work i'll go watch his DNC speech again.
IggleDoer
(1,186 posts)BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)Romney says 47% don't pay federal income taxes. First off, that's a dated statistic. Secondly it includes all sorts of people you would not expect to pay taxes (children, students, disables, unemployed, and elderly) plus it also includes some people you might think WOULD pay taxes. Specifically most active military (non-officers) would pay no Federal income tax).
But set all of that aside. There are three important terms to understand: Capital gains, Payroll taxes, Federal income tax. They are all part of the Federal taxes and everybody who is employed pays some of that.
Capital gains. This is supposed to be a a tax on the increased value of assets put at risk investing in our economy. In fact, over the years, the plutocrats have done two things. 1) they have added loopholes for themselves that makes it legal to launder their income to show as capital gains instead of ordinary income subject to the normal Federal income tax; and 2) they have bribed politicians to create a special low "millionaire's rate for this income. Currently it is 15%. It was 20% under Clinton. The Ryan budget makes it 0%
Payroll taxes This is the taxes to fund Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and unemployment insurance. Every worker pays this, but it is subject to a cap of $106,800 (for 2011). Any income above that amount pays not a single penny to support these programs. In other words it is as regressive a tax as there ever way.
Federal income tax This is the tax charged on ordinary income after various deductions. This is the tax that Romney was citing in his 47% claim.
Now here's the key point, even for the one Romney tax return we do have (2010), almost all of his income is laundered through capital gains. He pays virtually no Federal Income Tax. When Reid says his source states that Romney paid no Federal Income Tax for 10 years, that is almost certainly true because instead of paying income tax, he used loopholes to pay the cheaper capital gains tax instead. We know this is true because a) his 2010 return says so, and b) he has said that he didn't pay less than 13% in any of the other years. But the Cap Gains rate is 15%, so he could not be paying very much Federal Income Tax (a 36% rate) and end up with a net rate of 13%.
Or to put it another way, Take your total income, subtracts 10% of that for the tithe you paid to the Mormon church, and pay 15% of the rest. That's how you get to 13%. He paid NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX. Harry was right. He paid some capital gains, but he didn't pay any income tax.
He is in the 47%.
We really need to hammer that, and the key it to get people to understand that neither capital gains nor payroll taxes are "Federal Income Tax".
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)Let me point out that there are a lot of seniors who have a lot of savings over their lifetime. It is quite normal for a person in that situation to have most of their money in tax-deferred accounts (IRAs and 401Ks). They can recognize their gains a little each year, and often stay under the point where they would have to pay Federal income tax. But they may have to pay some capital gains, just like Romney. That is why almost all seniors are in the 47%
meow2u3
(24,745 posts)...but only on the money they withdraw from them.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)It all depends on how much money you have. If you need to draw more than about $16,000 per couple, then you will pay some tax on the excess, but it will be at the lowest marginal rate. Social Security benefits complicate those calculations.
NotThisTime
(3,657 posts)Governor, perhaps the only income he's reported in ten years are speaking fee's, which as we all know don't add up to much, only 300 grand for the one year we do know about.
What a slimeball....
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)And I say this as 12 year CPA who works in income taxes.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)He will say, "Oh, but I paid capital gains taxes."
And the response to that is "Most of the 47% paid payroll taxes. What's your point? You did not pay any INCOME taxes. You used a millionaire's loophole to launder your INCOME to make it look like capital gains."
spooky3
(34,303 posts)income from capital gains and losses is still income subject to income tax and is different from FICA, unemployment tax, etc.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)In fact, it says that capital gains are completely different from ordinary income. It has its own tax rate. It has its own rules. And you can carry forward capital losses.
I understand the point you are making, and if you ask 100 accountants, 97 would probably agree with you. But this is not about what accountants think. It is about making a point that the average non-accountant can understand. And this is exactly the point that Harry Reid is making. There is no chance that Romney went a decade without paying some capital gains. Zero probability of that. The source was clearly talking about ordinary income tax.
Let Mitt try to explain his way out of that. He is the one creating the problem by not revealing his tax returns.
"Oh, we know you probably paid some capital gains, which everybody knows is the special low loophole rate for millionaires. But did you pay any real taxes -- you know the regular takes you accuse 47% of the public of not paying? It sure sounds like you might be one of those 47%. Don't you think it is time that you came clean and released those returns?"
Please, we don't need to hear from any more accountants on this point. Thank you for your service, but your technical jargon isn't relevant here.
spooky3
(34,303 posts)Salaries, rental income, royalties, etc. CG etc. are treated in particular ways by income tax law, but that doesn't change the fact that these are all subject to income tax.
If you are making the argument on the basis of language, then the language should be precise and consistent with current usage. Maybe it would be better to make the argument on a different basis.
cr8tvlde
(1,185 posts)More like whining.
Here's what I'd consider proactive and appropriate ... No tax returns, no debate. Deal with it. Obama should not debate a potential felon or tax evader. We just don't know, now do we?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Personally, I'm a Democrat and I like seeing our Senate Majority Leader take another jab at Mitters. Your comment makes no sense to me.
cr8tvlde
(1,185 posts)They do that all day long, at our expense, ad nauseum. OK so it's wishy washy...is that better?
But a few on the Democratic team need to get out of the safe walls of the Senate, the Beltway and DC and do some battle. As I see it, we're waiting on the Republicans to do it. Please link me to the publicly outraged Democrats, (other than Nancy Pelosi's statement) as I might be missing something.
Oh, and my "no tax returns, no debate" is what I believe a chorus of Democrats should be shouting and demanding. Something just a bit like the "birthers"???? My long form for your 1040s. They have called him a communist, a socialist, an illegal, bashed his mother and grandmother and his wife ...need I go on?
Obama might be debating a freaking felon, for all we know.
That, IMHO, would be a gutsy, non-whiny demand.
LakeErieLiberal
(37 posts)should do that. But, it's good to have Reid being the attack dog goading Romney, no? Personally, I think Obama should play above that game like he's cooly been doing so far and let the other high powered Dems show no mercy.
cr8tvlde
(1,185 posts)should at least have been as hard on Romney as his OWN PARTY was on him. They didn't say it on the Senate floor, They said it to him, via news media outlets and basically, ripped him a new whatever.
I'm grateful for Harry Reid's comments, really, but the Dems have been silent, for the most part.
Suji to Seoul
(2,035 posts)Obama released his BC. Rmoney refuses to release anything but hot gas.
I'm tired of "they both do it" crap.
cr8tvlde
(1,185 posts)Four years of birther crap heaped on our President? Idiots running all over the world looking for dirt so they could internationally humiliate the (mixed race) leader of the free world and those who voted for him...idiots like Orly Tait and Shurf Arpejo...to mention a couple.
Mr. Romney wants to be leader of the free world.
And it's false equivalency to demand what every other politician, including Mr. Romney's VP picks, has been required to disclose...tax returns...to prove he's a legal, tax-abiding citizen?
False equivalency to ask Mr. Romney to stop denigrating 47% of our country folk for not earning enough to pay (income) taxes and prove that he did? Even if he didn't pay taxes legally, I'm OK with that...he's rich and it's legal. But he's making up new disclosure rules just for himself. Imagine if President Obama during the "birther scandal" had acted like Mitt...tax returns??? Can't make me.
And one more thing again ... I want to know if our President is debating a felon. He just might be a felon, or a tax cheat, and no he won't make it into the Presidency. But like so many things, he gets away with mocking normal people and normal procedures and even his own father's recommendations just because he's rich.
Mitt/Ann: Read my lips ... No Tax Returns. I've told "you people" all you need to know (about that). Now, please vote for me.
Me: Obama has proven over and over again his citizenship and his right to hold his office. Mitt has not proved he is qualified and "not bribable" once. Therefore, putting them on the same footing/stage/as equivalents at this point, is wrong.
NotThisTime
(3,657 posts)Democrats_win
(6,539 posts)Will Russian spies use this to make him work against America? Russia, which Palin can clearly see, is our greatest threat.
Emit
(11,213 posts)Liberalynn
(7,549 posts)Blue State Bandit
(2,122 posts)calimary
(80,700 posts)He only paid capital gains - telling newt gingrich that if gingrich's let's-get-rid-of-the-capital-gains-tax tax reform plan were to pass, it would have meant he (wrongney) paid NO taxes for - what did he say? A couple of years?
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)diabeticman
(3,121 posts)on taxes after the 47% comment.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021371699
tavalon
(27,985 posts)We at DU are a hive mind, a very smart hive mind.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)ncgrits
(916 posts)and BAM, looky there!
BREMPRO
(2,331 posts)polichick
(37,152 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)mountain grammy
(26,571 posts)I'll bet $10,000 Mittens paid no taxes for at least a year.
trailmonkee
(2,681 posts)That would get the comments in the news cycle
spanone
(135,637 posts)[IMG][/IMG]
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riverbendviewgal
(4,251 posts)K & R
Initech
(99,915 posts)laruemtt
(3,992 posts)is of, by and for the parasitic class. They are bleeding this country dry.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)WinstonSmith4740
(3,048 posts)Mitt must have filed for an extension in order to have until 10/15 to file his taxes. When you file for an extension, you must file an approximation of what you feel you will owe. If you think you'll owe money, you DON'T get an extension paying, just filing. So somewhere, there must either be a) a check in the amount of estimate of taxes owed, or b) a statement claiming you will owe no taxes. Let's see it.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)Cha
(295,929 posts)On the Senate Floor..Good, Bonus Quote of the Day!
tavalon
(27,985 posts)Thank you Harry Reid.