General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt says so much when a working family can't even afford to bury the dead
Personal case I know: a friend lost her mother the other night. Her mother was on disability and passed away in her sleep. She was still very young (just barely over 50).
All the kids are adults and work full time. In the current job market they are struggling to even pay the rent and cannot afford to pay for a funeral. I noticed this morning on facebook that they had started a Give Forward account in hopes of paying for the funeral. Because they don't have the money they cannot make plans for a funeral at this time.
It shouldn't be like this. They aren't even allowed to mourn properly because they are poor. I don't care about a person's political persuasion and I think that most would be angry about something like this if they knew. And if they realized how common it was they'd be even angrier.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)process took a huge chunk out of my savings. I wanted to do right by him and I am glad that I was able to. But it was very scary spending all that money I really couldn't afford. My heart goes out to your friend and her family.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)I don't even know where to begin or how to help.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)for Missouri after looking at your profile for where your friend might be from.
I found this: http://www.dfsmemorials.com/missouri-cremation-services/index.html Maybe it's worth it for you to take a look at the website? I was thinking that if the family could raise money on facebook something like this might be worth looking into.
I don't know. I just feel so bad for what they are going through and also so bad for how bad you feel.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)I'll also give them the name of someone I went to school with who I found out is a funeral director now. He might be able to help them keep down costs a bit.
liberalmike27
(2,479 posts)I want to be cremated. It isn't without cost, but it is pretty cheap by comparison.
I visited a very old graveyard once, where my grandmother was buried, and I realized that most of the people buried there, never had anyone who visited their graves anymore. Even famous people eventually are forgotten, and clearly burials are for the family or people close, so they can go visit. I don't want anyone that might, wasting their time whining over my grave, and I especially don't want someone spending money on me in a harsh economy, or otherwise. Once we're dead, the part that is us is gone. I don't know where it goes, but I know we have exited the car, and I sure don't want anyone going bankrupt paying for an expensive funeral.
By the way, that business has become very concentrated, monopolized. It's part of the reason it has become so much more expensive. It is much like the medical care business, they've got you over the barrel, and they do their best to not leave any of your money on your table.
840high
(17,196 posts)cremated - their wish. I have it in my will, too.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)and made our plans already. It is the cheapest way to go. I just can't and won't burden my only child with doing our funeral and the expenses. We told the funeral home not to put it in the paper, and I didn't want any service at the funeral home and to bury me as soon as possible. The only expense we will have to worry about is the head stone. I even told my family I know they all love us and we talk every day but there is no need to come at a burial. I believe when you die your soul leaves your body. The funeral is for the living. If they feel they need to have a service they can do it back home in their state. I am a realist.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)do more than putting it in your will. Tell the people who would be confronted with the arrangements. The will is rarely read so fast that anyone will know it is there until it is too late. There are very few people who run to the will as soon as someone dies.
840high
(17,196 posts)daughter and ex know my wishes,
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)controls most aspects of the funeral business. I agree with you on cremation- it is cheap, and every one else can go about the business of living.
DeschutesRiver
(2,354 posts)religious reason why not)?
I think I'd go for a low cost cremation, with the ashes spread at least in one spot that could be accessed forever (I've heard of places deep in a national forest or state park used in this way, and the family members often camp nearby where the ashes were dispersed). It could be in a corner of a city park. Or if there is family land anywhere, some could be put there with a tree or a lilac or you name it planted over top as a permanent memorial to visit. Just about any place where over the years one could go and remember their loved one for free.
And then I'd throw a "wake" style potluck get together, music if we knew anyone who played an instrument, and maybe some good words from the people who knew and will miss the presence of my loved one. And I'd do that even if only a handful of people could attend - a memorial that was a celebration of this person's years with them on this planet.
You know, we have a homesteader buried here on our land. No one has come to visit him, in fact, a neighbor helped us locate the grave way off in a quiet canyon near the fallen down cabin where he lived in peace and quiet. But we, strangers, are the only visitors, and it seems like having an actual gravesite with a body isn't always what it is cracked up to be, if what you want is to be sure that people will visit your gravesite. Of course back then this didn't cost the man's family a dime since he buried on his own land, where he lived and loved to be, and today things are far different.
To me, since I am not religious, I'd view throwing a wake as the difference between buying a beautiful gift for someone at store versus making a beautiful hand crafted gift to give instead. I'd prefer it that way, because I personalized my good bye. That said, to some people the traditional funeral ways are very important and without them, they may never feel good about how the passing/funeral was handled. Beliefs in this regard are highly individual.
The cremation and a private at home memorial service might not be what they planned or wished for, but it could be a great thing if they were open to doing things a bit non traditionally. I wish them so much luck in finding a way to cope with the costs, but more so that they find peace and a way to cope with the loss.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)speak at the place and they will play music you give them etc.
If a person wants to mimic a traditional funeral this is also a choice
The family can speak a little each person in honor of the person . People can gather for a short time
But you are correct that there are all kinds of send offs that are great alternatives
Helen Reddy
(998 posts)Little Star
(17,055 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)HappyMe
(20,277 posts)SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)that we will be cremated (as cheaply as possible) and will probably pre-pay and make arrangements ourselves beforehand, so our kids will not have to do it. What they do with our ashes will be their choice.. We will be dead and won't care. We do not want to tie them to a place they feel obligated to visit or feel ashamed when they do not.
No one lives on after the ones who knew them are gone, so they can hold us in their memories and when they too are gone, we are truly done.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)with others to put small stone markers where my grandparents & aunts are buried. But I don't think there's anything wrong with your way either.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)If we can ever wrest away "ownership" of public records from the likes of the "pay-to-view" entities that have somehow taken total control over public information.. (Ancestry.com et al )
I guess genealogy for me is not very interesting since so many of my "old-time" family records were obliterated by wars/dictatorships & general mayhem..
Lars39
(26,109 posts)It's also angonizing for those who would normally never choose cremation.
I know of a family member who recetly passed away who had made his own arrangements and chose the cheapest route, cremation, and it is very upsetting to his wife, who believes in burial for afterlife reasons.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)years ago and thinking about all the options. Now, from what I understand, they've even made those options more expensive.
I have a friend who is donating his body to The Body Farm, as they call it, in Tennessee. He even drew up the paperwork with an attorney, has it on file with his doctor and I believe he contacted the university. Why? Because it helps with research and it's free. Once they are done they will often cremate the remains and then return them to the family. This is a few years down the road.
Lars39
(26,109 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 2, 2013, 09:15 PM - Edit history (1)
Products and services. I know of one in Tn who is, but I wonder how long he'll stay in business.
former9thward
(31,986 posts)He died and they came and got the body. A couple months later they sent the cremated remains along with a letter detailing the research they had done with the body.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)It's putting his body to use for a good cause and takes away all the worries from his family. No one has to deal with a director and the cremation is free.
He said that once his ashes are returned they are to be taken to a local bar and a round of drinks will be on him. That's it.
Still cheaper than a funeral.
Demoiselle
(6,787 posts)Some very sweet people came and took him away, gently and respectfully. We had a lovely celebration for him later, and the hospitals sponsor a memorial service for all the donors that's coming up soon.
It is hard to say goodbye,but it feels good to be able to do exactly what he wanted us to do.
liberalmike27
(2,479 posts)Should in no way affect the "afterlife," should there be one.
The soul has left the building. Sorry for your loss by the way. But no one should feel guilty or worry about choosing cremation.
Lars39
(26,109 posts)I prefer cremation for myself and don't see anything wrong with it, but those that believe that the body should be whole can get all bent out of shape about the matter.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)then they need to save enough from cutting back on the real necessities of life, just to give to an overpriced funeral director. There are all kinds of ways that irrational religious beliefs affect those who have them, why shouldn't this be one of them?
Lars39
(26,109 posts)She's too young for survivor's benefits and has had 3 minor strokes now herself, with only one documented. The *only* hope she has for any kind of income is Vietnam Veteran Survivor Benefits, which might not kick in for 3 months or more.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)But a full-on funeral just to deal with one's religious beliefs about what happens to a human body in an afterlife is simply something for her to figure out how to provide, and not something the rest of us should feel obligated to provide.
For the living, I'm willing to do a lot, for the dead, I figure they won't know or care one way or the other, afterlife or not.
Helen Reddy
(998 posts)funeral service, cremation and the plots many years ago, when things weren't so dang expensive. They had the means and us kids are thankful for that.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)and was on disability the last few years of her life. No way could she ever afford any kind of insurance or prepaid service.
That's even one of the first things they ask when someone applies for assistance, such as food stamps. They ask them if they own any prepaid burial plans or plots. Ownership could disqualify a person for services, since they could be liquidated. (At least that's how it is in Missouri.)
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)I thought it was a federal law. I set one up for my grandmother in Iowa for a funeral in West Virginia with no issue. I thought it was under federal law.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)And that's for those of Medicaid age. She was too young so she fell under different laws.
She was on disability and qualified for food stamps. Food stamp qualifications differ from state to state, as does heating assistance, which she also received. In order to receive things like that she couldn't own any plans
MiniMe
(21,714 posts)Just asking because of your "those of Medicaid age" comment. There is no age thing for Medicaid.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)I should have typed Medicaid. I just wasn't thinking.
Helen Reddy
(998 posts)your mom and countless must endure.
I am so sorry that this is how a "'civilized" society treats their citizens. Pathetic.
Frosty1
(1,823 posts)Here in Minnesota a prepaid burial account is allowable as long as it is in a dedicated account
like a Certificate of Deposit or Savings Account that has the funeral home listed as Pay on Death Beneficiary.
Since this is a federal program I think the same laws apply to Missouri. Here in Minnesota the state will pay to bury the poor. Maybe they need to check that out.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)It's for food stamps and heating assistance.
I know. When I was in a lay off a few years ago I applied for assistance for my child and it's the first question they asked me. (Second is if you've been convicted of any drug violations, third is food stamp violations.) The caseworker stated that if I did have anything of that nature I would have to turn over all information about it and that since I was under "retirement age" it would probably have to be liquidated. She said that this would have to be done before they could even begin processing an application for food stamps.
States set the laws for food stamps. That's why Missouri is one of the few that have automatic disqualifications for drug-related offenses-permanently.
She was on SSI/disability, received food stamps and heating assistance. Anything of value, including funeral plots and plans, count against you when applying for food stamps and heating assistance in Missouri. If she just had Medicaid she would be able to own something like that.
Frosty1
(1,823 posts)But... These are federal programs and usually federal law supersedes state law. They maybe able to change rules about administering the programs but not the laws about the programs themselves. Many times the caseworkers simply don't know any better or they will do just exactly what they can get away with if no one challenges them. In your area The Legal Services of Missouri would be the one. http://www.lsmo.org/
xmas74
(29,674 posts)over the MO laws in reference to assistance. The example they are all using is the automatic barring of aid because of a previous drug conviction. The questions asked aren't just about the interviewee-they are about everyone who resides in the home. The idea is that children don't deserve punishment because dad was caught with a joint when he was 20 or that someone with an old charge doesn't deserve to be punished now when they've done their time. It's been featured in the KC Star a few times now because of how backward it is. It's a big fight and, from what I understand, if this law is changed it could change how aid is given.
(That's where the questions about burial plots and a single vehicle might come into play. Not just the burial plans are involved but also the value of your car. Depending on the value of your car you could technically be forced to sell it, even if it's the only form of transportation for your family. And Missouri's transit system outside of the cities really bites, if there is one at all.)
I know the attorney for the local Legal Aid. He's a good man but he's stretched to his limits. One person serving 13 counties is a bit much so everything is backlogged.
http://www.lawmo.org/offices.htm
Sometimes these things just have to work their way through the courts. I know the value minus any amount owed on the car has to equal a set dollar amount as part of the federal qualifications process and not negotiable. Here is what you said the caseworker said "since I was under "retirement age" it would probably have to be liquidated" Probably is the KEY word. If these accounts are not set up as a dedicated account with the funeral home as beneficiary they can force you to liquidate them. If they are properly set up It is questionable whether they can force liquidation.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)but in the end she's just going by what she knows. It's something that'll have to work itself out in the courts or in the legislature.
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)Funeral home visitation, Church, Pastor, Organists, Soloists, Food for Reception, Reception Hall, Cemetery Plot, Open and Closing of Grave, Vault for Casket, Grave Stone, Placing Grave Stone, Obituary in Newspaper, Transportation for family members, lodging, food.
When I took over my grandmother's finances, I moved her savings account into a funeral account ($8K). I have since put $2K of my own money into cemetery costs, and it is still will not cover everything (this is a bare bones funeral, casket, etc.
A suggestion if you plan to go under Long Term Care under Title 19. Use whatever liquid assets you have available to set up a funeral account. It is shielded from the Medicaid asset requirement and cannot be seized in bankruptcy or by creditors. Do this before addressing any other debts (except perhaps assets with a lien like a house or a car).
xmas74
(29,674 posts)In order to receive any services in Missouri (food stamps, heating assistance, etc) she had to liquidate any prepaid funeral accounts, plots, etc.
A few years ago I went through a lay-off. I went down to the local DFS office and applied for food stamps and MC+ for my child. One of the first questions they asked was about this, including funeral accounts. I didn't have any and said so but asked the case worker what would happen if I did. She stated that they would have to know exactly where they were located and the total dollar amounts and that, more than likely, they would have to be sold or liquidated before they could begin processing an application for food stamps.
Long term care is entirely different and that's a good thing. Problem is, young people die all the time and my state doesn't recognize that.
dhol82
(9,352 posts)My mom had a pre-paid burial and plot arrangement. However, it was in some sort of irrevocable trust so that when she went on SSI it did not count in the mix. That paid for the whole funeral and interment. I just had to pay to add the date of death to the tombstone.
Oops. Just realized that SSI is not Medicaid. But, if your arrangements are placed in an irrevocable trust (arranged by the funeral home) seems like it can't be touched.
Any lawyers on the board know?
xmas74
(29,674 posts)Unfortunately, everything is different here.
Frosty1
(1,823 posts)Foodstamps is a federal program subject to federal law.
See post #47
xmas74
(29,674 posts)Example: in Missouri anyone convicted of a drug related crime is permanently barred from use of the program no matter what the conviction, when or where. Missouri is one of few states still left with that denial.
Similar laws are on the books about receiving food stamps and burial plots/funeral plans.
The caseworker wasn't wrong. She gave me a piece of paper that was a generic from the Jeff City with a list of questions. She had to read each and every question to me and ask me if my answer was yes or no. If yes, I had to elaborate.
madokie
(51,076 posts)yes we have a fucked up country right now and it is not the Black Man in the white house's fault either. Its the sorry racist no good sob's who are to blame.
I love our President and Vice President. Oh and love doesn't come easy for me either
xmas74
(29,674 posts)And food stamps. She had a roommate who was the same. She slept on the couch, since they were both on a long waiting list for low income housing. (There's always a long wait around here-too many people and not enough housing.)
She couldn't afford much of anything.
madokie
(51,076 posts)I'm so sorry for your loss
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)It's like they want whatever you made for a full year as a disposal fee.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)they want more than she ever made in a year.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)As if you must not have loved her very much if you don't pay for their trip to Bermuda.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)they might have time to think before they get sucked into purchasing everything the home wants.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)I consider what's left to be "medical waste".
xmas74
(29,674 posts)but it's harder to keep that line of thinking when it really happens.
That's how families get sucked in to spending far more than they can afford.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Then you go to look up who the hell it was and it was nobody special at all. I mean, I can see it when the community honors someone with a monument but to put the thing up just because you could afford it is an ego trip.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)I enjoy the monuments. I like to spend time in cemeteries, looking at unusual headstones and monuments and learning the history behind them.
My community sponsors cemetery walks every year. There is a theme and lots of research is involved. Some years the persons chosen are connected by a common history or event. Other years it has even involved symbols on headstones.
In the past year I started making gravestone rubbings.
Do some take it overboard? Yes, but I still enjoy looking at them.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Complete with a creepy old mausoleum, an underground crypt and a crying statue.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)making rubbings, taking pictures and researching the names.
It's always interesting the stories behind the names. Even the most simple stones often have interesting histories.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)xmas74
(29,674 posts)I would love to see it in person
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)42.307681, -85.178815
C/P into google maps.
Initech
(100,065 posts)Earth_First
(14,910 posts)To my horror I was shocked to find out that in the back of a cemetary in a poor-drainage area; is the location that the county pays the village to bury the forgotten.
After seeing an IndymediaRochester video on this, I went to see this myself.
I was appauld.
The rows of plots are marked with broken shovel handles, golf clubs, tree limbs.
There are tire tracks from a dual-wheeled dump truck that ran directly over three plots.
A portion lays under water.
I approached the village board of trustees about the condition of these plots, to which I was met with attitude and dismissal.
I was told that if I wanted to take care of the plots, I was welcomed to do so.
I want the contractor responsible for this tossed on their ass and have someone with a bit of dignity involved...
My wife and I go up during the non-winter months or when snowfall has cleared and clean the trash and debris up.
Shameful.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)It's the same attitude that they have down here with not just that but with the old black cemeteries. No one wants to take care of them because they were cheap or donated.
Look for a cemetery club or find a way to start one. I belong to one and we do care and upkeep on some cemeteries, while trying to raise money for headstones and researching the history behind some of the remains in the plots.
bluedigger
(17,086 posts)There used to be a Potter's Field in Secaucus. They stacked them three deep in places. It was discontinued in the late 50's and later used as a landfill. Then they built the Interstate across it. And built a youth correctional facility on top of it. All the remains that could be recovered (>4,000) were removed and reinterred ten years ago, as part of the new rail connector project to NYC that Gov. Christie then cancelled to fund casinos. Anyways, there are still human remains embedded in the foundations of the overpasses of I-95. They couldn't be removed without shutting down the interstate, which wasn't a realistic possibility due to the location and heavy use.
a la izquierda
(11,791 posts)I have driven that stretch of highway many, many times.
mrmpa
(4,033 posts)they had also prepaid to the catholic cemetery to have their urns placed in a niche behind locked glass on a shelf. When dad died mom & brother went to the funeral home for arrangements. They learned that the cemetery now wanted a "grave opening" fee of about $500, this was to place a key in the lock and place dad's urn. They refused to pay, it took awhile but the cemetry returned the money to mom.
We had dad's urn for a few years, until the national cemetery opened in our area. Dad was buried there at no cost (15 year Marine Corps veteran), when mom dies she will also be buried there at no cost.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)and yet it has to be done.
I don't even know where to begin.
RC
(25,592 posts)It has to be done.
More and more people are getting out of paying taxes (too poor), but no one is getting out of dying.
You have to pay for this and the days of Potter's Fields are disappearing in some places.
You're over a barrel at the most inopportune time and they know it.
shrike
(3,817 posts)They're having the visitation at the church, instead of the funeral home. If the deceased was a church member, it's usually a lot cheaper. A couple of the local churches in town also have what they call a funeral ministry. The funeral ministry usually provides a luncheon after the service free of charge, and that can also be a "visitation" time for friends and family.
Of course, that does you no good if you're not religious. A friend of my husband's did not want his wife spending money on his death, and so he asked her to do a potluck at their home after his death. (He had leukemia, so they had plenty of time to talk about it.) It turned out to be very well-attended, and guests thought it a wonderful idea. Though once again, a potluck might not have been an option for your friend's struggling family.
Funeral costs are just outrageous. Around here, cremation isn't much of a cheap option anymore. The funeral homes have jacked their prices up to the point where a cremation costs just a little less than a no-frills burial.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)but not anymore. And my friends are not religious, though I am.
My church has a funeral ministry. After the service our dining area is opened up and food is served. At the beginning of the year a sign up sheet is posted. If you are interested you sign up to assist. They place members on teams and when there is a funeral a team is picked. When it's your team you receive a phone call a few days in advance and you bring a small entree, a side and a dessert. (Usually in my case, it's a casserole, a jello salad and dump cake.) You drop it off morning of the funeral at the church, on the way to work. That's it and it tends to happen about 4 times a year.
Viva_La_Revolution
(28,791 posts)We're the only family she had, her siblings and friends are already gone, and none of us thought it was necessary- especially for the price.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)burial plans. Took me years to set them up but I at least know they are there.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)It makes me realize that I need to set something up soon.
Solly Mack
(90,762 posts)Poverty offers up enough indignity to the living. To have one final indignity in death is downright criminal.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)One of the sons would just get out the adze and make it say "one lick less, one lick less" and having built a pine box would just go out and dig a hole. (note, this is about all I remember from Faulkner's "As I lay dying" which I read in a college class.)
In some ways those kids are poor because they are just starting out. In the old days, they would do things differently. Quite typically a young couple would still be living at home in their first year of marriage, and thus would not be out there struggling to pay rent for their own place.
When I was younger, I used to dream of a socialist world where people would be able to live together and share resources.
Seems like a silly dream now. Live together? Share? These are people we are talking about.
It's not something I want to have knowledge of, but does a funeral really NEED to be expensive? How much would it cost for say, cremation and a service at a church?
xmas74
(29,674 posts)but now they are hiking up the prices since it's becoming a popular option. Now it's not much cheaper than an inexpensive burial.
And if you don't belong to a church...
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)xmas74
(29,674 posts)We don't live in Spokane or even Washington.
I remember with my grandfather that we had to pay for transportation to the nearest crematorium, which was over 100 miles from where we lived. That's where they got you-the transportation bills and how it could be transported.
Besides, they couldn't even afford $700. They can't afford a copay for a doctor's appointment, nonetheless $700. (And I bet they wish it were $700!
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)Anyway, I was just pointing out the cost. Property and houses, lots of things, actually, are much more expensive than they were in the Midwest where I lived for most of 50 years. One would wonder why it would be more elsewhere, except for someone trying to profit excessively from death, or in a much larger city where things are moderately more expensive.
(Just a note - I get a bi-yearly sales call from one of those pre-arranged cremation services who told me it would save money. They wanted $1700, last time I checked. I saved money by not doing business with them, it turns out).
One of the best parts of the sad situation we just went through was the preacher's assistant in the hospital, comforting the family, who in handing us a list of businesses that could handle the body, said "Now, we aren't supposed to direct you, but we do have them listed in the order that they seem to treat people the best". She put herself out there when she could have left us on our own, and that was nice of her. We had no money for this, and the last SS check was to pay for medical bills, but had to be left for return to SS, so she didn't have enough to even pay for final expenses.
Sure enough, the first one on the list was nice, gracious, and as I posted elsewhere, let me sneak her little dog in to see that "grandma" was gone.
And with no money, instead of a lot of stress over some service, (which, imnsho, is for the living anyway), I suggested we find a way to memorialize her that would have meant something to her. So we contacted the writer's club in she loved so much, had been in for decades, and suggested a fund to pay someone a little extra for their first published magazine story, something she had gotten such pleasure from over the years. There was three or four hundred dollars in it within a week or so. So instead of a bunch of dead flowers and words from some priest that didn't even know her, a writer will get to feel a little of what she enjoyed, and to me, personally, that will be a better memorial than a bunch of people sitting around in a church. And several friends and relatives had a mass said (I guess that's like a prayer?) in their own churches, which doesn't cost the family either.
Btw, you can do your own transport. I have, for another person. And your own memorial, etc. There is no need to pay a bunch of people for other charges unless one wants to, and having been around a lot of death, I have yet to see much of that reduce someone's grief. But someone needs to step up and ask what is required by law and not let the whole process be guided solely by emotion or some supposed tradition, especially where it is encouraged by profit-seeking businesses. People will lie to others for profit in this situation as quickly as most any banker or politician will take money from hungry widows and orphans.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)but my little car can't handle it.
They get you on everything and right now they are all so grief stricken that no one can think straight. In another day or so I'll try to find out what needs done.
Frosty1
(1,823 posts)but I just flashed on the scene from National Lampoons Vacation with Chevy Chase and family driving the car with the dead Grandma on top. Anyone else remember that?
Same with the grandfather in Little Miss Sunshine.
Frosty1
(1,823 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)sometimes lash out, even at people who are trying to help.
I wish you luck, and them some comfort. It's nice to have someone around who cares, and sometimes that's the best one gets.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)juajen
(8,515 posts)at our home. All of our friends brought food, and I was surprised at how many people handed me sympathy cards with money inside. The "Wake" was really lovely, and he would have loved it. He hated "church" and his only favorite hymn was Amazing Grace. I was very lucky, as my children also helped. The food was delicious and I saw people that I hadn't seen in years.
I put out my wedding album and other photos, and it was special to me, and he would have approved. We had plenty of time to discuss what he wanted before he died. I still have his ashes here with me, and when I die, my children will either scatter them or bury them in our family cemetery.
From now on, unless I know that the family is very well off, I will also give a card with a check or cash.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)What a terribly sad occasion, but it was so nice that people were there for you and your family.
Hekate
(90,648 posts)I noticed that several of their old friends' adult kids did likewise. Lots of photos and mementos of the deceased. Hugs, food, nice stories, some jokes.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)Many years ago, when my mother passed away, we expected that she would be buried in her mother's grave, as it was supposed to have been dug extra deeply in order to leave room for my mother in the future.
As it turned out, when the funeral home contacted the cemetery to make burial arrangements, the cemetery "discovered" that my grandmother's grave had not been dug extra deeply, even though my father had paid extra for it to be done.
My mother could not be buried with her mother as she had wished. At the last minute, my father had to spend more money to buy another burial plot some distance away, so that my mother could at least be buried in the same cemetery as her mother.
I had just finished an undergraduate course in consumer protection law at Rutgers University, and raised hell about this with the county government and NJ consumer affairs. They investigated it, but it came to nothing. Nobody was penalized or even reprimanded. I wouldn't be surprised if the owners of the cemetery leaned on some political pals or even passed along a little money to have the investigators called off the case. I was hoping that the cemetery would be forced to give my father a refund because it was their "mistake". I suspect it was done on purpose.
handmade34
(22,756 posts)"The funeral industry preys on the grief-stricken when they can least handle things"
the industry is exploitive and manipulative!! (when my husband passed away I refused to deal with them)
Nay
(12,051 posts)decide what to do. We were horrified at the costs. Neither of us was in any position to spend $15,000 on a funeral! We had mom cremated; I still have her urn, and when my brother and I actually see each other again (he is mostly overseas), we will scatter her ashes in one of her favorite places.
Ten years ago, a simple cremation was $1,000. And the funeral home tried to sell us a $6,000 casket along with that! And I know darn well they wouldn't have burned up a metal casket! My mom was a recluse and not a churchgoer, so we there would be no one to to come to a memorial and no where to have a memorial of any kind; my brother and i were her only remaining relatives. From what I hear here, THAT would have cost a mint, too.
We did place a nice obituary in the paper ($150!!) in case she had acquaintances we didn't know about. I feel we did the best we could under the circumstances, but what on earth does stuff cost now? I shudder to think.
sorefeet
(1,241 posts)They picked the body up at his house creamated him and put him in a plastic bag for $3000.00 No funeral, got him on a shelf and will spred the ashes this summer. How much profit is in a funeral anyway.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)but they can't afford even that right now.
I think they are being suckered in and it scares me.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)On Memorial Day. He had been sick for some time (emphysema, type II diabetes, and heart failure). My sister and I couldn't afford to even cremate him. If it weren't for my grandparents still being around, I don't know what we would've done. My sister and I both work full time (I have a P/T job and a home business). I'm in FL (where my dad was) and she's in LA. It was hard enough for her to get time off to come here. You're right. It shouldn't be like this.
bocaoma
(23 posts)lunatica
(53,410 posts)The third paragraph has a cremation offering of $1,000. Surely the family and their friends can scrape that amount up.
I had my mother's remains cremated for that amount. They were very nice to deal with. They treated her remains well and were very kind to me.
http://www.bistatecremation.com/fh/home/home.cfm?fh_id=12457
Twenty four hour phone number: 314-831-8868
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Although we specialize in cremation we offer many affordable funeral options for your loved one. Please do not hesitate to speak with one of our Missouri and Illinois Licensed funeral directors to address your cremation or funeral needs at our 24 hour phone number 314-831-8868. We can also be contacted by email at Bistatecremation@sbcglobal.net Feel free to Stop by and see us 3387 N. Highway 67, Florissant, Missouri 63033.
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xmas74
(29,674 posts)and will have to check out the radius. We might be too far and will have to look at Kansas instead, which could involve state line transportation fees.
It'll be close on the radius. I'll look it up.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)I know. I was born into a poor family and that didn't change until I finished college (a state university on government grants and loans). My family members couldn't come up with $200 for an emergency situation. Some times just buying gas for automobiles to get to work was difficult.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)I'm not poor, but at the time of my mother's death I had to reach out to my union and ask them if they had a fund to help people in need because I was already on the road to filing for bankruptcy and there was no way I could pay for her cremation because her income was ending at her death (we lived together, sharing expenses, so a loss of more than $1,000 was devastating). My union didn't have a fund, but a few union members donated money to help me. I still get tears in my eyes just thinking about their generosity. The reason they gave was that they had all lost a parent and they know how important it was to bury or cremate them. I had started the whole process of bankruptcy and eventually to foreclosure and had used up my own retirement fund just to take care of her. I just wanted to make sure she died in her own home and in peace. I knew I would had hell to pay after her death, but I was determined that the end of her life would be trouble free. I was very lucky to have friends in my union who helped me.
I really do get it.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)turn of the last century, Jack London described how families would wrap their dead children and put them on a cool shelf in the back until they could spare the pennies, that were needed to provide gas for cooking and heating, to bury them.
Maybe we haven't advanced as far as we think.
peace13
(11,076 posts)A very wonderful service can be done by family and friends anywhere, any time. When my father in law died My husband and his brother and sister made up the service , provided the music and a friend who had been a minister added his two cents. It was a lovely time together. I hope that your friend and her family take the time to do this, be it in someone's home, at a park or a church...anywhere.
My father died and we could not make the trip. For his birthday that same year he had requested that instead of singing Happy Birthday we play it on kazoos. He died at Christmas so my husband , son , friend and I went to dad's village where he grew up and sat in the park and kazooed Christmas carols in his memory. We did this on the same day as others were having his funeral 1400 miles away. It is a memory that none of us will forget.
Now back to the body. I hope that your friend can get enough money to bury her loved one as cost effectively as possible. Make sure she knows that the frills can be free and memorable with some imagination!
1-Old-Man
(2,667 posts)I simply did not have any money and he died. The Veteran's Administration paid a couple of hundred dollars and that plus what I had got him cremated. No ceremony, no grave site, nothing but a stainless steel can with a bunch of crunchy bone parts and heavy ashes in it. There is a glued-on paper sticker on the outside of the can that has his name and dates of birth and death on it.
shanti
(21,675 posts)Aren't veterans entitled to a gravesite in a national cemetery? My ex is a veteran, but is disabled now and basically broke. Our three sons will have to handle the arrangements when he passes, and none of them has any money. They don't even know what happened to the body of their grandmother (my ex's mother) after she died penniless. Probably potter's field, because there was no one able to pay anything towards any kind of funeral arrangements...
On edit, a timely story:
http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/02/26/2708304/counties-cope-as-indigent-burials.html
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)America shouldn't be like this! You would think the most developed country in the world would help people bury their dead.
love_katz
(2,579 posts)owned and operated by the 1%.
They don't even want to pay us a living wage...or perhaps, even any wage.
And they will happily rip us off for whatever they can get when we are grieving for our loved ones.
RevStPatrick
(2,208 posts)...with the help of IndieGoGo.
Saddest 50 bucks I ever spent.
Journeyman
(15,031 posts)it may come in handy some day.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)We don't live in the same state as any of our families, so we're not even going to bother with a death announcement.
Our friends are scattered all over the country/world, so none of the traditional trappings of death make sense for us.
The last time we looked into the cost (3-4 years ago), it would have ran about $2,800.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)No add-ons of any kind. Their arrangement calls for them to be transported from wherever they are (even if they die overseas - they travel a lot), cremated, and poured into the Gulf of Mexico. That is all. My folks call it the Bake & Shake plan. I don't know how much it cost them.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)bike man
(620 posts)the ashes will be co-mingled and dispersed at sea.
It seems so foolish for survivors to be put in a position of going into debt because of guilt (or some other emotion), when arrangements can be made by the living so easily.
We will all die, so why not plan ahead for this certainty.
Hatchling
(2,323 posts)You might check to see if the local county has a similar program.
mucifer
(23,535 posts)I'm a pediatric hospice nurse. Funeral help is what a lot of the parents want.
It's not warm and fuzzy. So foundations don't want to help with it. Catholic Charities sometimes helps. But, they say you can't bring flowers to the funeral because "if you can afford flowers, you can afford a funeral".
xmas74
(29,674 posts)in peds. She made comments about something similar about the flowers.
It's a sad, nasty business all the way around.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)he nor his grown kids could afford her funeral. My sister and I both went in together and gave them 6k to bury her. We'll never see a dime f that money back and that's ok. However, I did tell her four daughters that they had better make certain that they take enough life insurance out on their father for when he passes because I won't be able to help with his funeral costs. Otherwise they will have to be satisfied with a simple cremation when he passes.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)The cremation place was doing a "Store Opening" sale and she knew she was not really going to make entering year six of having pancreatic cancer. So she got a cremation with no frills deal for $500. That cheep skate of a father would not even splurge for a urn, but that is another story...
The prices were and are to much for most people. And one would be surprised at how hard it is to get life insurance at a certain age. You can be young when you first get it or you can be over a certain age to get it at a decent price. However when you are in between... Ouch!
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)my fam can cremate my shell and take what's left to Grand Cayman (near Aqua Bay, south of cemetary beach). I'd like to be scattered there. I'd like to be a part of reef and the beach. I'd like my daughters to have an excuse for visit my favorite place. I'm sooo happy and grounded and awed there, part of my soul is there already.
Also beats mouldering underground.
janlyn
(735 posts)I have already planned and paid for my cremation.I won't see my kids go through what my brother and I did with our mom.
It's all about the money to these funeral parlors.
They tried to talk me into an expensive urn because they said I would be put in a plastic bag inside a cardboard box and wouldn't that traumatize my daughter? I said no my ashes will be scattered but they kept up, So I said I will call my daughter and ask. I put her on speaker phone and bless her heart she says " no momma, I'll just slap a couple of smiley face stickers on the box and we'll call it good" the look on the funeral directors face was PRICELESS!!!
dgibby
(9,474 posts)for research/teaching purposes. We had a memorial service for her later. Worked out great all the way around.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)Pretty much the norm for all but the super-wealthy..
Autumn
(45,058 posts)after the one day they give you is 500 dollars a day.
Hekate
(90,648 posts)Mom wanted her body donated to science -- but she had just moved to be near my brother when she died, and the university medical school was in another state entirely. So my brother scrambled to get his local university med school to accept her "donation," which they did. The only place to keep her until they picked her up was a local mortuary, which had the requisite refrigerator.
My sister and I scrambled to get there, and we did want to see her one last time. The mortuary people, who mind you were getting nothing from us for their services (maybe had some arrangement with the university), offered to lay Mom out in a side chapel that was undergoing remodeling and so not in use for someone's funeral. She was draped in a heavy white cotton blanket and her head was on a pilow. She had been washed, but otherwise undisturbed. No mortuary makeup meant she was waxy-pale. Fancy it was not, but it was what we needed -- Sis and I had Mom to ourselves and were able to talk quietly. Mom was at peace at last after all the storms of her last few years. Shortly after we were done, the med school's ambulance came for her body.
I guess my family and I have been lucky, but these people were kind to us.
prole_for_peace
(2,064 posts)The author explores the way that the funeral industry takes advantage of people at one of the most vulnerable times of their lives.
[link:http://www.amazon.com/American-Way-Death-Revisited/dp/0679771867|
xmas74
(29,674 posts)What a fantastic book!
Did you know she passed on right before she finished the book? It was a mission of sorts for her to revisit the topic she wrote about back in 1963 and see how much it had changed. Turns out it was even worse than before.
prole_for_peace
(2,064 posts)I have made sure everyone knows that I do not want to be embalmed and that I want cremation in the least expensive casket available. If I can be cremated in a cardboard box then that is even better.
My ideal exit would be to just be thrown in the forest for the animals to eat. After I'm dead of course.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)and it really left an impact. They help a family plan for the inevitable in cases of terminal illnesses and they take care of all the funeral arraignments. Most deal with the cardboard box type and burial in natural cemeteries.
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts).
Hekate
(90,648 posts)It was really quite beautifully done. There was an outpouring of grief and support, as is normal at such times, and while my daughter was just stunned at the prospect of planning I told her, "This is for others to do."
Every time someone asked me "What can I do?" I gave them a task. Friends donated flowers for the altar, and they were potted plants that could be planted later. Friends brought trays of food to the reception in the church hall. Friends put up the tables and put them away again. Friends cleaned up the church kitchen afterward. The cost of the church and hall were not exorbitant. The woman at the mortuary was kind and compassionate.
When someone asks what they can do, give them a task.
The cost of a funeral can be obscene. At a time when mourners are just stunned out of their minds, they can be talked into spending more than they can reasonably afford in order to show their love and respect. In truth, how you spend your life thereafter is the way to show your love and respect for the departed. You have to be strong to resist this kind of pressure. You have to be willing to ask for help and to receive help when it is offered.
I greatly recommend cremation. Both my husband and I plan that for ourselves.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)They nearly have enough for an inexpensive cremation, which is what they are planning to do. I have promised food and paper plates and someone else has promised some succulents for a display. Yet another person has offered to go through the family photographs and make a display for the memorial service.
Hekate
(90,648 posts)It's so hard. I do know.
RudynJack
(1,044 posts)for decades. Jessica Mitford wrote a book about in 1964.
Get cremated, scatter the ashes. Have the friends/family get together afterward for a toast.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)right before she died.
She'd found that things were even worse than before.
That book has really stayed with me over the years.
RudynJack
(1,044 posts)She was a wonderful muckraker. Her whole family was very interesting.
Warpy
(111,250 posts)We can't afford to get sick and our families can't afford to have us forgo medical care and die.
If they want to keep charging first world prices for goods and services here in the US, they're going to have to start paying first world wages.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)I'm not doing well but I do better than some.
Something like this can financially devastate a family.
Warpy
(111,250 posts)including the decreased revenue stream, stem from DEPRESSED WAGES.
You can't starve labor into prosperity.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)but the powers that be don't know it or don't care.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Just have a dinner with family and a few friends. I want to be cremated and have a church service. My remains will be in the wall at my church.
riverbendviewgal
(4,252 posts)When my son and husband died I got $2500 for each of them to help with funeral expenses. They were cremated in cardboard boxes, naked with a sheet around them. There was no visitation or funeral ceremony. I had memorials for each of them in the local high school cafetorium where my son had graduated. Friends helped and many came. The cafeteria cost $400 to use. They didn't want anything fancy. I thought both memorials were caring and honored their lives with music they liked and speeches about them. My husband, older son and my deceased son's widow was there when my son was cremated. I pushed the button to send him on to the hereafter. I saw him born and was with him when he died. The three of us were there in the crematorium when I pushed the button to send my husband 18 months later.
They both died of cancer. There were no medical bills. We have one payer. What a blessing. I kept their ashes and scattered both of them on our favorite beach (in the fall when there were no people around).
xmas74
(29,674 posts)families wouldn't have to fret and panic about how to pay for a funeral.
$2500 could pay for the cremation and a very small service.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)one-time payment of $255 can be paid to the surviving spouse if he or she was living with the deceased; or, if living apart, was receiving certain Social Security benefits on the deceased's record. If there is no surviving spouse, the payment is made to a child who is eligible for benefits on the deceased's record in the month of death.
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/pubs/10008.html
The VA also has benefits available.
http://www.va.gov/opa/publications/benefits_book/benefits_chap07.asp
xmas74
(29,674 posts)$2500 really is enough to deal with the situation.
riverbendviewgal
(4,252 posts)covered almost all of it.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)made plans a good twenty years before her death to have her body go to the local medical school to be a dissection cadaver. We had a small service for her at a funeral home -- she wasn't a churchgoer so that wasn't an option -- and then food afterwards back at her house.
About a year after she died her cremated remains were sent to me. It took several more years, but eventually we were able to scatter her ashes in a location that she'd wanted.
Aside from the fact that this was exactly what she chose, there were almost no expenses connected to any of this. Whatever small fee the funeral home charged for an hour or so there, and that was it. Well, there was the cost of food after, but again that wasn't very much. I don't think as many as twenty people were there, including her six children and a couple of spouses. She'd been retired for nearly twenty years and led a quiet life, so there simply weren't that many people to attend a service.
In your friend's case, I don't know if donating her body at this point is even an option. There are many people that would feel creeped out at the thought of mom being dissected. For us, we'd known for years that's what our mom wanted, and we were all fine with that.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)I'm supplying food, another person is bringing some plants to warm the room up a bit. Someone else volunteered the use of their home for a memorial.
It's still sad that they are begging for money to help with an inexpensive cremation. They can't help it-no one has any to spare after the bills are paid.
Mortos
(2,390 posts)I would be willing to donate some money to them and so would, I think, other DU'ers.
When I was in basic training, one of my drill sergeant's pulled out my dog tags and looked at the part that had religious affiliation. Mine said, "No Religious Preference." This was before you could choose atheist. He yelled at me and said, "No religious preference! I guess that means if you die, we can just throw you in a hold and kick some dirt on top of you?" I yelled back, "YES DRILL SGT!"
I like the idea of cremation and a home wake. I am going to set funds aside in my will to provide for a helluva party. I would like my family to gather and tell stories, jokes and remembrances of me in someone's home, not some $500 a day fake sympathy funeral home. We spent $6000 on my grandmother's funeral (in addition to the pre-paid plot she had already purchased). It was a ridiculous amount of money that she would not have approved.
Funeral directors do use guilt to up-sell the family more expensive products and services. It is a vile practice.
Ideally, I would like a funeral pyre, but they are illegal and probably not a very efficient way of getting rid of the body. I live on 8 acres and have entertained the thought of having a home funeral plot but the funeral industry has lobbied politicians to pass laws that make that process nearly impossible.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)I just don't want that info broadcast. There are some insensitive people who might take advantage of that info.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)There is no reason for the thousands of dollars of charges they guilt people into paying.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)michigandem58
(1,044 posts)This gets my goat. The funeral industry has convinced us funerals are to be held at funeral homes, at considerable expense.
A friend recently passed. His church hosted a potluck/visitation/memorial service one evening. It was a beautiful time of rememberance and fellowship. Didn't cost the family a penny.
As suggested above, consider donating the body for research. If not possible, shop for cremation. It's not that expensive.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)Due to the cost. I'm providing food someone else music another plants and another is picking out pictures to display.
They are still raising money for the cremation.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:40 AM - Edit history (1)
His wife, only 61, passed completely unexpectedly after a massive stroke (lifelong smoker). My uncle, who had just recently gone back to work after a long period of unemployment (they lost their house after 23 years) couldn't pay for the funeral. They weren't going to release the body until he could pay! Can that get any more gruesome? Luckily, family members took up a collection and he was able to provide a proper burial. I have to wonder, though, what happens when the families just can't afford to pay? Pauper's grave? What?
xmas74
(29,674 posts)they've decided to have a cremation and a memorial service. They're still raising money for the cremation but hope to have it all soon. Many places are getting rid of the potter's fields of the past. Instead of a pauper's grave they are cremating and then holding the remains until the family can pay.
This is something that goes beyond politics. Many of us, no matter the affiliation, know someone who has gone through this and most of us are disgusted with what happens. The question is: what can be done ?