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JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 05:41 PM Mar 2013

Why doesn't Obama just tell Congress to bring him a budget that he can veto or sign?

I wasn't here so I don't know whether anyone has posted about this before.

The Constitution provides a specific process, a sort of flow chart if you will, for preparing a federal budget.

Article I, Section 8 gives to CONGRESS the general authority to prepare the budget and provide revenue to keep the government going:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

. . . .

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

. . . .

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei#section8

BUT, ARTICLE I, SECTION 7 IS MORE SPECIFIC ABOUT THE PROCESS THAT CONGRESS IS TO USE, WHO DOES WHAT FIRST, AND THE VERY LIMITED ROLE OF THE PRESIDENT IN THIS PROCESS:

All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.

Every bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States; if he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a law. But in all such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a law.

Every order, resolution, or vote to which the concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the same shall take effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the rules and limitations prescribed in the case of a bill.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei#section7

It is the responsibility of the House and at this time of the Republicans in the House (since they are the majority party) to propose a budget and send it to the Senate.

Since 1974, the Senate gets it and does what is called reconciliation.

Reconciliation is a legislative process of the United States Senate intended to allow consideration of a budget bill with debate limited to twenty hours under Senate rules.[1] Reconciliation also exists in the United States House of Representatives, but because the House regularly passes rules that constrain debate and amendment, the process has had a less significant impact on that body.

A reconciliation instruction is a provision in a budget resolution directing one or more committees to submit legislation changing existing law in order to bring spending, revenues, or the debt-limit into conformity with the budget resolution. The instructions specify the committees to which they apply, indicate the appropriate dollar changes to be achieved, and usually provide a deadline by which the legislation is to be reported or submitted.[2]

A reconciliation bill is a bill containing changes in law recommended pursuant to reconciliation instructions in a budget resolution. If the instructions pertain to only one committee in a chamber, that committee reports the reconciliation bill. If the instructions pertain to more than one committee, the House Budget Committee reports an omnibus reconciliation bill, but it may not make substantive changes in the recommendations of the other committees.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_%28United_States_Congress%29

Here is a link to Joseph Story's commentary on this provision in our Constitution:

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_7_1s13.html

Joseph Story explains that the provision is based on the process used in the British Parliament. The Commons was the house of the people, and obviously, the House of Lords was the house of the aristocracy. It was believed that since taxes, revenue, etc. have so much impact on ordinary people, the house most closely representing them should present the revenue (budget) bills.

Obama should not be involved until the House and Senate have presented him with a bill. This government by consensus sounds fine but is not our system.

Obama should never have involved himself in the process this early. Personally, I think the Republicans are too divided to ever come up with a budget. They aren't just unable to compromise with the president and the majority of voters in the country. They are unable to compromise with each other.

Had Obama stayed out of it and simply vetoed an unacceptable bill as the Constitution provides, the schism in the Republican Party would be obvious. The hang-ups in our government are in the Republican Party -- totally in that Party. If Obama did not enable the irresponsibility of the Republican Party, the whole country would be better off.

I realize that Obama is trying to compromise for the good of the country. But he is making the mistake that the friends and family of alcoholics make -- covering up for the addiction, in this case, the addiction of Republicans to their erroneous belief that they, individually, are right about every issue and should get their way. Republicans need to grow up, and Obama should let them grow up.

I apologize if Article I, section 7 has already been brought up and thoroughly discussed. Just ignore this post if that is the case. I was gone.

29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why doesn't Obama just tell Congress to bring him a budget that he can veto or sign? (Original Post) JDPriestly Mar 2013 OP
Isn't it Harry Reid who won't allow a budget to be voted on? dkf Mar 2013 #1
Do you have a link? JDPriestly Mar 2013 #2
Here...the House passed a budget the Senate did not. dkf Mar 2013 #4
The article is dated February 2012. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #6
The Ryan plan cut $5.3 trillion in spending over 10 years. dkf Mar 2013 #8
Cutting Medicare sounds great in the abstract. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #9
Eventually we will need to bite the bullet and nationalize healthcare. dkf Mar 2013 #10
The Republicans and some blue dog Democrats won't stand for that though. LiberalFighter Mar 2013 #17
Agreed. As you may remember, I loved the single payer systems in Europe. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #25
For all of us who have elderly parents, cutting Medicare doesn't sound good even in the abstract. amandabeech Mar 2013 #13
There are aspects of Medicare and Medicaid that could affect you too when LiberalFighter Mar 2013 #19
The Ryan plan would hit many people if it were to pass, amandabeech Mar 2013 #20
I like the Kaiser Permanente model for urban areas. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #24
I love my Kaiser insurance. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #29
Keep the eye on the long term prize, not the day to day battles. graham4anything Mar 2013 #3
"Why doesn't Obama just tell Congress..." Carlpatrick Mar 2013 #5
Yes. Obama has that authority. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #7
The House and Senate will not agree to a budget until at least 2017, if then. amandabeech Mar 2013 #14
Agreed. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #23
You're right. It's not clear on the specifics. Igel Mar 2013 #11
Read Article I, section 7. That is the procedure that the Constitution prescribes. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #26
Congress needs to act before the current continuing resolution expires on 27 March. tammywammy Mar 2013 #12
Boehner has said that he'll put a continuing resolution before the House for a vote, amandabeech Mar 2013 #15
Unless it's for drastically reduced spending levels, it should pass. tammywammy Mar 2013 #16
Yes, it will be at current levels. amandabeech Mar 2013 #18
Interesting, thanks for the info. tammywammy Mar 2013 #21
You're welcome. amandabeech Mar 2013 #22
I think there may be a shutdown. It makes the Republicans feel so macho, so powerful. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #27
House and the Senate have to agree on a budget before it goes to the President wercal Mar 2013 #28

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
2. Do you have a link?
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 05:48 PM
Mar 2013

Harry Reid is not in the House. He is in the Senate.

Under Article I, section 7, the House has to bring the budget to the Senate before the Senate considers it. That is the standard procedure. I don't know why it is being changed.

The House is completely responsible for presenting a budget to the Senate. I don't believe anything has been passed in the House yet. Do you have a link to an article stating that the House has brought a budget bill to the floor and voted yea or nay?

I haven't seen that, but I have been out of town.

Thanks.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
4. Here...the House passed a budget the Senate did not.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 05:55 PM
Mar 2013

WASHINGTON — A divided House approved a $3.6 trillion Republican budget on Thursday recasting Medicare and imposing sweeping cuts in domestic programs, capping a battle that gave both political parties a campaign-season stage to spotlight their warring deficit-cutting priorities.

But the partisan divisions over the measure, which is dead on arrival in the Democratic-led Senate, also underscores how tough it will be for lawmakers to achieve the cooperation needed to contend with a tsunami of tax and spending decisions that will engulf Congress right after this fall's elections.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/paul-ryan-budget-passes-house_n_1389165.html



Senate Democratic leaders on Friday said they do not intend to bring a fiscal 2013 budget up for a floor vote.

"We do not need to bring a budget to the floor this year — it's done, we don't need to do it," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) told reporters on Friday.

Conrad's panel has released an analysis asserting that the deal reached in August to raise the debt ceiling was, for all intents and purposes, a budget.

Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/budget/208593-reid-this-years-budget-is-done#ixzz2MW4LJvua
Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
6. The article is dated February 2012.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 06:31 PM
Mar 2013

Here is one dated February 2013.

Asserting that “the American people” are on his side, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., told me during an exclusive interview for “This Week” that any that deal reached between Republicans and Democrats to avoid the looming sequester must — “without any question” – include revenue.

“The American people are on our side. The American people don’t believe in these austere things. We believe that the rich should contribute. We believe we should fill those tax loopholes — get rid of them, I should say. And that’s where we need to go,” Reid said. “And I’ve got a pretty good fan base for that: the American people. Republicans, Democrats, and Independents.”

Reid confirmed his position on revenue would apply to any deal put into place to avert a government shutdown or lift the debt ceiling as well. This puts him directly at odds with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky, who said earlier this month on “This Week” that the ”tax issue is finished,”But Reid — invoking the GOP’s 2012 presidential candidate Mitt Romney — suggested a deal could include such things as the elimination of oil and gas subsidies, or what he called “low hanging fruit.” The Nevada senator also pushed back when I asked if he was sidelined during the so called “fiscal cliff” negotiations, telling me he played the “bad cop” during that period.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/02/sen-harry-reid-any-budget-deal-must-include-revenue/

The problem is that the Republicans are not producing a revenue bill pursuant to Article I, section 7.

So the sequestration bill is in force until the Republicans in the House bring a revenue bill. Congress passed the sequestration bill. It is up to the Republicans in the House to pass a replacement for it. It isn't up to the Senate to initiate an alternative.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
9. Cutting Medicare sounds great in the abstract.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 06:51 PM
Mar 2013

But if you talk to hospital doctors who deal with the families of the elderly, you will learn that children are very upset if their parents don't receive the best quality care.

We could make money stretch further in education and children's services if we did away with school administrators and their bloated salaries.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
10. Eventually we will need to bite the bullet and nationalize healthcare.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 06:57 PM
Mar 2013

Otherwise health costs will eat into everything.

I see no way around it.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
25. Agreed. As you may remember, I loved the single payer systems in Europe.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:23 AM
Mar 2013

The French doctors were just great -- probably saved my life and that of my baby.

You don't get as many frills as some Americans (the fortunate who have deluxe healthcare coverage) get, but it is still a great system. One of the big advantages is that every woman receives prenatal care. That means so much for families. You never put of taking your child to the doctor because you want to save money. My parents had to do that.

I love single payer healthcare. I never had the sense that the government was interfering in my doctor's or my decisions about specific procedures or choices or the scope of my health care.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
13. For all of us who have elderly parents, cutting Medicare doesn't sound good even in the abstract.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 09:43 PM
Mar 2013

And even if we know that not all our parents can be seen at the Cleveland Clinic or by Mayo.

Medicare reimbursement is very low, much lower than private insurance reimbursement. Nonetheless, the cost of a medical education keeps going up.

I'm several years away from Medicare, which for me will be a blessing, but I'm afraid that the low reimbursement will mean that it will be difficult to find a primary care doctor.

There are areas where that is already a problem.

LiberalFighter

(50,795 posts)
19. There are aspects of Medicare and Medicaid that could affect you too when
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 10:07 PM
Mar 2013

it involves your parents under a Paul Ryan type of plan. Either immediately or after they pass. If your parents were in a nursing home their children could end up having to help with the finances. There might not be anything to pass to the children. If they don't end up in a nursing home there may be other expenses that they can't pay on their own.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
20. The Ryan plan would hit many people if it were to pass,
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 10:11 PM
Mar 2013

but my mother resists planning, so I'm going to be screwed unless she has a very short stay.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
24. I like the Kaiser Permanente model for urban areas.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:19 AM
Mar 2013

I am a senior, and I love it. They try to do everything very efficiently.

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
3. Keep the eye on the long term prize, not the day to day battles.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 05:54 PM
Mar 2013

Annhiliating the republican party and the splinter groups allows achievement of everything

and President Obama is doing something never done.

A second term president is NOT going to be lameducked the last two years.

By using the strategy (10 steps ahead) that President Obama is using, it will insure that many great things can be done the entire 4 year term, AND the continuation for another 8 years afterwards.

President Obama is batting 1000% in everything he has done so far (IMHO) and winning big
in 2014 will insure EVERY OTHER THING that he wants will happen.

INCLUDING the ability should it soon arise, to get some great Supreme Court Justices on the court.

As of the moment with this republican party, it is going to be next to impossible, especially if the next opening is one of the 5 and will turn the court around.

Keep your eye on the prize longterm and a shortterm sacrifice is well worth it.

The republicans are playing a stupid game plan and daily it backfires.

Most democratic voters know this and are fine with this strategy.
Of course, the republican/tea/libertarians won't make it easy, but then they haven't from day one.

It is why Harry Reid's leadership in the Senate is a wonderful thing.
Because the 2014 election will be a once in history landslide for the democratic party and with it, the opposing party will be down to just about nothing at the best, and at the worst,
the total repudiation of the extremists.

 

Carlpatrick

(16 posts)
5. "Why doesn't Obama just tell Congress..."
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 05:59 PM
Mar 2013

He doesn't have that authority.
Actually the House has passed several Budgets. The Senate none, and the last several the President Has offered have gotten Zero votes in either House of Congress.
No Aye votes in the Senate.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
7. Yes. Obama has that authority.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 06:37 PM
Mar 2013

He just has to wait until the House and Senate agree on a budget.

The House has to reconcile the budget with the Senate, but the president should not be involved other than to veto the bill or sign it. Sorry, but what you are suggesting does not follow the Constitution or the 1974 Act providing for reconciliation.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
14. The House and Senate will not agree to a budget until at least 2017, if then.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 09:48 PM
Mar 2013

The current fight is based on posturing for the 2016 election.

No R in the House, where the districts are mostly gerrymandered, or in the Senate will move any closer to the middle because to do so will mean a primary challenge from the right.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
23. Agreed.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:18 AM
Mar 2013

The sequester will have to be. The alternatives would probably be worse. And our economy will probably stagnate or improve just a little.

Igel

(35,282 posts)
11. You're right. It's not clear on the specifics.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 08:19 PM
Mar 2013

But you impose some that are at odds with the way the budget's been prepared for, well, all of my lifetime. I'm over 50.

It goes something like this.

The president prepares a budget. It includes his priorities. He has legions of people in the Executive, each of which know the operating needs and demands of their departments, to assist in this.

It goes to the Congress. The House has a budget resolution. It's not spending authorization. It's a broad-brush document, looking at projected income and expenses. In principle, it's easy to rope things into the confines of that document. Since it's easy, a lot of Congressfolk hedge on the budget resolution. In some years there hasnt' been an actual resolution passed because nobody could agree on one.

With the resolution in hand, it's bargaining time. The president's priorities (or, more appropriately, the priorities of his departments as massaged and changed by him to match his own and that of his cabinet members) aren't holy. They get changed and eventually formulated as a budget allocation or spending bill. Sometimes the prez balks and refuses to sign. * usually signed whatever was presented. In his last year he grew a spine and said "no" to a few spending bills that didn't reflect his budget guidelines. That stalemate lasted until he left office--some of the larger spending bills in the 2009 Bush II budget weren't signed by Bush II.

This is a nifty compromise procedure, and one that is entirely acceptable given the general guidelines in the Constitution. Otherwise the House would make a budget and fight to work out a compromise with the Senate. When they were done, they'd have to get the President to sign on, but his priorities--sometimes whimsical, sometimes based on actual feet-on-the-ground needs--would be included as the last step. That's insane and counterproductive.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
26. Read Article I, section 7. That is the procedure that the Constitution prescribes.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:25 AM
Mar 2013

That is the legal procedure. The president can choose to recommend something, but it is not his duty or job under the Constitution to make such a recommendation. Just read the Constitution. Articles I and II.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
12. Congress needs to act before the current continuing resolution expires on 27 March.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 08:37 PM
Mar 2013

I think we'll just see another continuing resolution, but there maybe another government shut down before it's all said and done.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
15. Boehner has said that he'll put a continuing resolution before the House for a vote,
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 09:50 PM
Mar 2013

probably next week.

Whether that will get through the Senate, I haven't heard.

Whether the President will sign it, I haven't heard.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
16. Unless it's for drastically reduced spending levels, it should pass.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 09:57 PM
Mar 2013

Well, I'd think it would, but these days who knows?

With sequestration already in place I don't see Boehner requesting a CR with anything but "current levels", meaning FY12 levels like we're at now.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
18. Yes, it will be at current levels.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 10:01 PM
Mar 2013

But current levels of spending may be too high for those facing re-election in conservative districts.

Boehner is looking for Dem votes and a few Reps.

Whether Reid can get 60 votes to bring it to the floor in the Senate hasn't been discussed in any article I've read.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
21. Interesting, thanks for the info.
Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:12 PM
Mar 2013

I hadn't been paying attention to the CR with the on-going sequestration debacle.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
27. I think there may be a shutdown. It makes the Republicans feel so macho, so powerful.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:32 AM
Mar 2013

They shut down the Clinton administration. They love doing that. It's just childish fun for them. They are sick.

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