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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Fri Mar 22, 2013, 03:33 PM Mar 2013

How Smart Poor Kids Get Screwed by the College Admissions Process

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/03/22/undermatching_smart_poor_kids_get_screwed_by_the_college_admissions_system.html

If I told you that smart kids from low-income households get screwed by the college admissions system, you'd no doubt believe me. But what's surprising is that they don't quite get screwed in the way you'd think. When I wrote a column about the latest research on this, I focused on the fact that most kids from the top decile of standardized test achievement but the bottom quartile of the income distribution don't even apply to any selective colleges. Some folks who read that said, well, of course they don't because they'd have a hard time getting in or a hard time affording it. But one of the striking findings of the paper is that those kids who do apply to a full set of selective colleges are just as likely to be admitted as kids from higher income brackets. Even more telling, they're just as likely to enroll and graduate as kids from higher income brackets. The graduation data strongly suggests that it's not an affordability issue as such. And in fact a slightly updated version of the paper that's now available makes this clear:



As you can see above, the actual tuition charged to a low-income student is substantially lower at more selective schools than at less selective ones even as the instructional spending per student is higher. That's because in America the most selective schools are also generally the richest ones. They can afford to be more generous with scholarships and also spend more on teaching.

The problem really does seem to quite literally be that most low-income kids and their families are not well-informed about the situation. They don't know personally what kind of SAT or ACT scores are good enough to go to a selective college, they don't know which selective colleges are appropriate for someone with theri test scores to apply to, they don't know the strategic logic of "safety schools" and "reaches", they don't know about need-blind admissions policies, and they don't have any social acquaintances who can inform this. Isn't this what school guidance counselors are supposed to be for? Indeed it is! But they're seemingly not doing a very good job, nor are the recruiting arms of selective schools.
The good news here is that the problem seems relatively easy to solve in the scheme of things. What's more, progress toward solving the problem should create momentum. Every time a kid from a low-income household succeeds in playing the admissions game correctly, that creates a chain of aquaintances and family members back in the old neighborhood who may have learned something.


It's fascinating to me how that table inverts: the "less expensive" schools actually cost more to go to.
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frazzled

(18,402 posts)
1. I'd seen the original article the other day, and it was interesting
Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:31 PM
Mar 2013

I have so much to say about this:

That these lower-income students didn't know about these schools (or that there was significant financial aid that would make them affordable) is a problem of the schools they go to and the counseling systems, as much as the problem that their families, understandably, are not familiar with higher education. The original article said that this was more a problem in rural and smaller cities than in big-city populations.

I worked in the College and Career Center at my daughter's (inner-city) high school (which had upper-middle class kids, poor kids, a program for single moms, etc.), for four years on a volunteer basis. Kids would come in and we'd help them figure out where to apply, where they could apply for extra scholarship money, etc. This was before the Internet, so we also had all the schools' catalogues and materials on shelves as well. The parents were very involved. I had kids who came in with excellent SAT scores and GPAs, and I'd ask them where they were thinking of applying, and they'd either not know or they'd say, well, maybe Podunk Bible College. Wow, I'd think, they could do better than this. So I'd ask what they were interested in studying, and then try to encourage them to apply to a few more schools that had good programs in their areas. I learned a lot.

What I also learned was from my own and my kids' experiences. We're middle class, maybe on the just barely upper rather than lower side of middle. But very middle class. My parents were middle class. I graduated high school as salutatorian (2nd highest) of a class of 1,000. My high school counselor suggested I apply to Ball State Teacher's college. My parents were of course not so uninformed, and I knew to ignore the stupid counselor and apply to other schools of a higher caliber. I got full tuition paid on an academic scholarship for the four years I went to New York University, back in the 60s. (That was in the days when there were such things as academic scholarships; these do not exist anymore.)

From my own kids I learned other things. My daughter was deciding to go either to a small, well-regarded liberal arts college, very expensive, or a large state university. Both were excellent schools, but since she was hearing impaired, she felt she might do better with the small, seminar-type classes at the small school. When the financial aid offers came in, the cost of going to the more expensive school turned out to be about the same as the state school. So she got to go where she wanted.

I also learned, from my son's experience, that middle to upper middle-class kids really have a tough time. My son is super smart, and he was a National Merit Scholar (which means you're in the top half of one percent taking the SATs, a near perfect score). He had strong extra-curriculars, though no sports (but he was a musician). He had schools begging him to apply, and he applied to six of those. Despite super high grades and SATs and many talents, he was turned down from four of those six schools: even one from which he got a personal letter from the chairman of the math department asking him to please, please come so they could have him in the department there!! (Fortunately, he wasn't all that keen on that school.) So he didn't get to go to his first-choice school. It all turned out great in the end, because the university he went to was a perfect fit and really a great experience. But even though he was a stellar student, if you're not from a very needy background, there are hundreds of kids just as smart as you, and they only have so many slots for that kind of kid. I'm not complaining about that: I totally support them taking kids from disadvantaged backgrounds before they take the middle-income kids who will be okay no matter where they go.

We do need schools and counselors to direct kids to the best possible schools they can go to. They have a real opportunity to advance themselves there ... if they know about it, and understand that they can afford it as well as the lesser school. Unfortunately, not all schools have good counseling programs.

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
4. kudos to you...my counselor in high school
Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:11 PM
Mar 2013

was a complete jerk who tried to "steer" black and latino students to community colleges. i had an excellent gpa and test scores, so i ignored her. however, i did see a poster for the claremont colleges in her office, and i contacted pitzer college. i applied and was accepted to pitzer. i had an older cousin who was also helping me, but i still wonder about the kids who didn't have my drive and/or support. i wonder how many people she actually steered to communities colleges who might have been able to go to a private college. and back then...my tuition was about $5k per year, and i got scholarships to cover 90% of it.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
5. Great story, and kudos back to you
Fri Mar 22, 2013, 11:19 PM
Mar 2013

You were wise to ignore your counselor. Someitimes I wonder about their motivations. Just ignorance or is it something else?

I love that the tuition was $5k per year back then. I think mine was $3,600. I know that was 1968, but the tuition today is like $40k. I feel like an old geezer sometimes.

ananda

(28,858 posts)
7. It is true about the lesser cost for a more high tier school.
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 08:39 AM
Mar 2013

I have a young adult family member whose very high tier school is paying her way completely; and her family is not rich, though not poor either. I always get the feeling that white kids and their families seem to be able to access and utilize financial resources as a matter of course and white privilege. And I often wonder if they realize how privileged they are that way.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
11. I'm not sure I understand
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 10:21 AM
Mar 2013
I always get the feeling that white kids and their families seem to be able to access and utilize financial resources as a matter of course and white privilege

Huh? I don't think there are any scholarships or financial aid that are set aside for white students.
 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
17. Of course not
Sun Mar 24, 2013, 04:27 PM
Mar 2013

but the white kids and families are more likely to know that the resources are there.

Nikia

(11,411 posts)
8. I have seen this in my own experience
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 09:35 AM
Mar 2013

I think that it is both ignorance about the financial aid process, fear of going somewhere where no one in their circle knows about, and beliefs about where someone like them should be going. I was top 10% in my grades and test scores with strong extracurriculars and my guidance counselor wanted to push me to either go to one of the good state universities or one of the private colleges within an hour drive. He did not understand why I was applying out of state to nationally ranked liberal arts colleges. Other students parents actually asked my parents why I was going to an expensive out of state college instead of a public state university where I belonged. My uncle told my mother that if I wanted to go to a small liberal arts college that it was stupid that I wasn't going to the one in town (which has a much lower academic reputation and unbeknownst to him would have given me less financial aid).
At my husband's high school reunion, one of his ex girlfriends complained about how their guidance counselor told her that she had no place applying to Ivy League colleges because her mother worked at Walmart and her father was an unemployed drunk.
The thing is that as the article said, selective colleges do provide more financial aid. The atmosphere probably varies widely between colleges, but in my own "expensive" college experience, I did not see much snobbery towards myself or other poorer students. One of my friends, a transfer from a public college, said that was much more snobbery at the public college.

JPZenger

(6,819 posts)
9. Sometimes cheaper to go to private college than public one
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 09:53 AM
Mar 2013

Many people do not understand how the system works.

First, they don't understand that their grades and test scores are critical to making college affordable - to get into a school with great need-based aid (which are usually extremely competitive for admissions), or to qualify for merit based aid.

Second, they don't understand that a private college is often cheaper than a flagship state university - if you qualify for aid.

Third, they don't understand that applying to some colleges that are one tier lower in selectivity can greatly increase their potential for aid. Private colleges typically offer the most aid to students in the top 10% of their applicant pool - so a student with high but not exceptional scores will often receive large amounts of aid from a less selective college.

Fourth, they don't understand that going to a cheaper public college for 2 years and then transferring to a private college for 2 years may actually increase their total costs. That is because the private colleges often offer little aid for transfers, but offer a large amount of aid for entering freshmen.

Fifth, too many students get obsessed with out of state public colleges, which typically offer very little need-based aid to out of state students.

Sixth, they overlook the benefits of quality honors programs at some public colleges, which offer some of the advantages of private colleges.

Seventh, they may not apply to a sufficient range of colleges, which is important to compare net costs. Some very smart students at public high schools over-reach and apply to too many highly selective colleges, without also applying to a few colleges that are financial AND admissions safeties. They don't understand how many valevictorians with almost perfect SAT scores are rejected each year by the Ivy-level colleges.



Nikia

(11,411 posts)
10. I do think that students should be aware of all of these issues
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 10:16 AM
Mar 2013

And apply to several different schools to see which ones they get into and which will offer the best aid package.
Applying to several colleges can also be less practical for poorer students. There are application fees. Most students also want to visit their prospective colleges and having an onsite interview greatly increases one's chances. A poorer student might have a hard time affording travel to a college hundreds of miles away, especially multiple ones.
A friend went to a private high school that offered college visit bus trips to elite out of state colleges. That might be a good idea for large public high schools. For smaller rural high schools, I could see where it might be impractical because only a few per class might be good fits for those types of colleges.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
13. My college offers (or at least did in my day) funding for the interview visit
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 10:27 AM
Mar 2013

I don't think they paid for everything, but it was pretty close. But you had to ask about it, just like waiving the application fee. That's where a lot of people seem to miss the boat.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
12. Yeah, I saw a lot of people fall for the "go to community college for 2 years" trap
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 10:26 AM
Mar 2013

and never manage to actually get a 4-year degree.

Brother Buzz

(36,416 posts)
14. So, just what are the most competitive schools?
Sat Mar 23, 2013, 10:59 AM
Mar 2013

Are they the status Ivy league schools, or are state universities on the list?

I've got a dog in this fight: Low income household with an very overachieving senior high school student. I wonder if we didn't sell our son short by not casting the net wider.

JPZenger

(6,819 posts)
15. You can search online for "colleges that meet 100% of financial need" or words to that effect
Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:01 PM
Mar 2013

Some colleges only accept a limited number of students who they think will need large amounts of aid. Some colleges only accept students off the wait list who don't need any financial aid.

 

Taitertots

(7,745 posts)
16. The process isn't screwing them, they are screwing themselves by refusing to apply
Sun Mar 24, 2013, 04:15 PM
Mar 2013

The article says that the students who do apply are just as likely as rich students to get accepted.

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