It would be ridiculous for modern mankind to adhere to the obviously wrongheaded proclamations declared in Leviticus ...

Leviticus is wrong ... Even though it is "divinely inspired"

The homophobes these days will throw the book of Romans at you if you scoff at Leviticus.

silent in church my reaction is hush yourself. I am very happy with my female clergy in my parish!!!

most of us have a morality that is independent from and superior to the Bible. That obviously includes you.

If that weren't true, mankind would have destroyed itself a long time ago.

That is all we need, all those good bits. No need for any of that misogynist crap from Paul. Heck, most of those rabid right wing fundamnetalists should call themselves Paulians not Christians.

Yes i am more into the Gospels than the epistles.

Specifically the Book of James. There's a lot of great stuff about taking care of the poor. I also like the definition of religion found in James:

"Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows* in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world" If more Christians would focus on that definition of religion and less on hate, things would be a lot better.

i understand that somewhere in the new testament much of leviticus was deemed not to apply to christians.

many of these laws are merely markers of identity (jews are the people who observe these practices) so if you don't have a jewish identity, such laws would not apply to you. at least that's how i think of it as a jew, i've never fully understood the new testament approach to why these laws don't apply to christians.

As I am atheist, through and through ...

I believe both the Pentateuch and the more recent New Testament are irrevocably wrong and invalid ....

I regret anybody buys into these notions in any way ...

about these books then?

Ok .... I will just shut my mouth, and let those who adhere to these principles and ideas continue to promote them as absolute truth, without any dissenting opinion ever spoken to them ... ever ...

That's how you would prefer I behave? ... never say a word unless it supports a theological book of some sort?

wonderful ....

I'll shut my mouth now ....

*my* opinion, though, is that prefacing opinions with phrases such as "in my opinion" goes a long way towards avoiding unintentional offense.

i don't care for believers to call my atheism "ridiculous" and i don't go around calling belief in god, or observance of kosher laws "ridiculous", no matter how much i just can't wrap my head around that kind of thinking.

What else would it be but an opinion?

Sorry, but your book of fiction and those who blindly follow it is the offensive thing here.

IN. MY. OPINION.

RL

which often leads to (usually unintended) offense being taken. unless clarified as an opinion, the implication is that it's fact and anyone disagreeing is flat out wrong.

note the differences between:
"tax cuts lead to economic growth" and
"my view is that tax cuts lead to economic growth"

or "eating shellfish is forbidden" and
"for me, eating shellfish is forbidden"

or "god exists" and
"i believe that god exists".

the post i was originally replying to made a declarative statement that some may take offense to.


as for "your book of fiction" my own view is that it's just a book, or rather a collections of books. i neither "believe" in those books nor do i blindly follow them, so i'm not clear on your use of "your".

in any event, i'm not clear on why observing a few dietary rules out of a sense of tradition hardly should be seen as "offensive".
personally, i think it's the imposition of one's views on others that is offensive, for instance, banning shellfish entirely as opposed to just avoiding it if you care to keep kosher.

Yeah, in your opinion. Oh, wait, you didn't say it was your opinion.

So this declarative statement of yours has lots od data and studies behind it, I assume?



RL

Not all of it, anyhow. I rather like that Jesus fellow - it's his self proclaimed followers I have a hard time getting along with. I'm of the sort that admits to not having a clue as to the existence of a higher power... but forgiveness, charity, peace-making... these seem to me like good things. I rather wish someone would come along to kick over the modern equivalent of the money-lenders tables.

As someone who has read thousands of fictional novels (particularly fantasy and science fiction) I find the bible rather amusing at times, despicable at others, and occasionally, inspired, enlightened, overall, some rather good ideas as well as plenty of bad ones.

and I get to make God in my image or any image I want, including a polytheistic spin. My personal decision is to allow Jesus into my pantheon - he didn't say much new but he seemed to have a good heart. His father, OTOH, is not allowed in my sandbox - he doesn't play well with others.

Except orthodox Jews. Generally conservative and reform Jews are highly supportive of gay marriage. Just to throw this out there, 78% of Jews in Cal. voted against prop. 8. Also, a recent survey done by the Public Religion Research Institute showed that 81% of American Jews support same sex marriage. I think it generally depends on which sect of Judaism you belong to.

i've NEVER heard religious christians talk about sex in unambiguously positive terms. at best it seems to be a shameful deed necessary for procreation. procreation is talked about glowingly, but the sex that brings it about is not talked about positively at all.

judaism, on the other hand, views sex as a mitzvah (a good thing) and sex on shabbat in fact is considered a double mitzvah! i've never heard jews, not even orthodox jews, speak of any guilt or shame regarding sex purely for mutual pleasure.

where the jewish sects differ is once you talk about sex outside of marriage, which spills over into discussions of homosexual relations. the orthodox tend to view sex as forbidden prior to marriage, whereas reform jews tend not to be bothered much by premarital sex, at least not on religious grounds.

in terms of gay marriage, again, outside of the orthodox, most jews tend to look past the genitals and just see couples in committed love and what's wrong with that?

Always the rebel ...

But it is more fun to rebel....

Lots of fundie types just love fried catfish. It's extremely popular in much of the Bible Belt.

NIV Leviticus 11:10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales--whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water--you are to regard as unclean.

NIV Deuteronomy 14:10 But anything that does not have fins and scales you may not eat; for you it is unclean.

So, it has to have fins and scales or else it is "unclean". No catfish.

Liviticus & Deuteronomy can both Bite Me.

You haven't eaten oysters until you have eaten them at Casamento's on Magazine Street in New Orleans.

the desert dwelling Israelite nomads, who wouldn't have known how to wipe their asses without a priest explaining the proper ritual for doing it so as not to offend the big guy in the sky.

and burnt offerings and all that. and stoning people to deatg for adultry. except Jesus put a stop to that when he said who among you without sin cast the first stone. that whole judge not lest you be judged pqrt tbey seem to miss.

being forced to eat green eggs and ham.

Sam-I-Am!

If you will let me be,
I will try them.
You will see.

Say!
I like green eggs and ham!
I do!! I like them, Sam-I-am!
And I would eat them in a boat!
And I would eat them with a goat...
And I will eat them in the rain.
And in the dark. And on a train.
And in a car. And in a tree.
They are so good so good you see!

So I will eat them in a box.
And I will eat them with a fox.
And I will eat them in a house.
And I will eat them with a mouse.
And I will eat them here and there.
Say! I will eat them ANYWHERE!

I do so like
green eggs and ham!
Thank you!
Thank you,
Sam-I-am

That is also a favorite of mine along with many of DR. Suess's books.

it seems, at least to some people, that ANY other offense you can just confess and ask for forgiveness, maybe do some penance, even if you do it repeatedly.

but somehow, homosexuality is unforgiveable and completely trumps any good there might possibly be in your soul.

disobey your parents, say a few "hail mary"s.
take the lord's name in vein, oops, sorry, i'll try not to do that again.
touch another man's ding ding and off to hell you go, you should lose your job and get beaten up and denied basic freedoms.

anyone claiming a religious basis for such persecution has lost sight of any constructive meaning of religion.

You've distorted the whole intent of the Bible!

It's God hates FUGS!

Personally, I thought the Fugs were pretty good--not a great band, but still.

But GOD hates them. Hates each Fug individually, and as a group.

And that's the Gospel truth!

The Catholic Church has basically always done what we do here at Real Time. It's a bunch of guys sitting around making up New Rules.

This New Rules is epic!

Bart: "Shut the hell up, you damn ass whore!"

fini...Now let's go get some wine

You could take Matthew 7:12, chuck the rest and retain the essence of what Jesus had to say, which wasn't anything people of good will haven't always known.

..that it's hard to claim that 'do unto others..' is really the intended message of the combined texts.

AND YOU'RE BURNING IN HELL FOR WEARING BLENDED FABRICS!!!

They think the Bible only has two books in it: Leviticus and Revelations!

And not meant to be for the common man?

makes a total mockery of this debate. Brilliant.

ya know that every 7 years when slaves are freed, debts are forgiven .........., how come that one gets mentioned huh?

dispute about the Jubilee. Some believe Jubilee was measured in sabbatical years, which were 7 annual years long and hence became 49 or 50 year cycles with regards to land and other financial debt forgiveness (of which there wouldn't have been much) and 7 annual year periods for the release of slaves, which is nothing to brag about either, especially since the average life span of an ancient Israelite was about 40 years.

They usually cite 20:13, the "for a man to lie with a man" thing. "OH, they shall FEAR GOD and be DAMNED to Hell for they have created an abomination EVEN unto GOD!

(Yes, I've heard that silly shit way too many times to count, and know the inflections they use.)

11:12 is only a few pages earlier and bans the eating of shellfish (and probably frogs) - so much for the church clam bake.

And 11 -8 (not sure how the smiley slipped in but it is 11: seven-eight) is pretty clear about pork - scratch the church pig roast.

Oh, but wait, the fundamentalist version of the bible has those parts redacted.

What they all seem to miss out on (except for the money gobbling preachers) is that Leviticus was nothing more than the type of manual they give you in 8th grade gym class - "Don't touch Louises socks, for they are stinky and an abomination EVEN unto GOD.&quot "Don't lie down in the shower because it is gross." "Wash your gym uniform every weekend". etc.

The rules layed down in Leviticus are for the health of mankind and if you'll notice there was no mention of lesbianism. Shellfish are primarily bottom feeders, or at least filters. Cloven hoofed animals often carried trichinosis and other difficult to diagnose infestations. If you can't put yourself into the historical perspective, you honestly don't know what you're talking about. That's true of all religious texts. You have to understand the society and their problems to know why these texts came about.

I'm sorry to rant, but I honestly thought our society had moved beyond gay bashing 35 years ago - and yet it's the same fucking stupid excuses for trying to ban it. And think about humans 4,000 years from now trying to figure out what the HELL an iPod was for. Primitive tool, perhaps?

I should end my rant here before I get in trouble, but one more thing. I don't cut my hair, at least not anymore.

Take care, friend.

only way out was through the desert. Pigs do not have sweat glands and therefore must be watered down several times a day in the desert heat. Therefore... it became a sin to try to bing a pig along on their trek.
Science and reason often explain a lot more than superstition.

The Torah is based on the Old Testament (as is the Qu'uran.)

My problem is with "EVERYTHING CHANGED WHEN CHRIST WAS BORN", but we're still going to pick and choose out of the old stuff to support our antiquated views on humanity.

And while water retention factored heavily into the use of camels, that really had nothing to do with pigs since most were kept in non-migratory tribes.

Speaking of which, did you know that dogs can only sweat through their tongues? I wish that was true with humans. I'd save a SHITLOAD in deodorant!

by the top three religions going after each other. There is so much overlap and so much reflexive hatred among them.

about him.

Eat all the locusts you want. Crunchy goodness.

haven't paid for one since, oh, around 1994

to what's in a book written by people centuries ago?

Sorry, if that's sacrilege to some people.

Amidst so many arcane proclamations, my faves that don't jibe with the 21st century:

"Don't withhold overnight the wages of your day laborer" - a weekly paycheck means you boss sinned 6 times.

"Don't eat of an animal on the third day after slaughter" - Virtually every grocery's frozen section & every restaurant commits this sin in bulk volume

"Don't wear a garment woven from more than one type of thread" Every non-Amish apparel company is trying to send you to Hell via the Cotton/Poly blend.

Lastly for now, the one that flashes through my mind every time I see a Bible Verse tattoo, (and what will bet my first tattoo if I ever get one): Leviticus 19:28 " .... thou shalt not tattoo yourselves"

Of course, the ONLY one you EVER hear about outside of Jewish Torah debate circles is 18:22 -
'Man shall not lie with man as woman - Abomination/detestable!!!"

Question? If that verse is so all-important to the Lord, why is it 18:22? Most opponents to gay rights would have you think it was Leviticus 1:1 - front & center. Somehow, it was more important to explain dozens of other things first, i.e., a properly consecrated altar upon which to sacrifice, from what part of the beast to remove the fat before said sacrifice, etc.

A tribal society in a patriarchal culture in a difficult region of the world with a harsh climate, few natural resources, no water, and entirely surrounded by enemies.

I don't think much of that applies to our own society today...

Time to grow up and move on...

but I guess we're ignoring that one, too.

I got this version from http://www.ariel.com.au/jokes/Dr_Laura_and_Leviticus.html
but I've seen it elsewhere online. Author unknown, and there's no copyright notice, so I think this is public domain and I'm quoting the whole thing. (I've inserted superfluous blank spaces into some of the Bibles references so that the heathen DU softwear doesn't display them as smilies.)


Dr Laura and Leviticus

Laura Schlesinger is a US radio personality, who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. She recently said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination, according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstances. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura which was posted on the Internet.


Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21: 7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1: 9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16.

Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

Homer Simpson-Caldwell