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OregonBlue

(7,744 posts)
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 06:36 PM Mar 2013

Pit Bulls that killed Georgia toddler were family pets - not fighting dogs.

Relatives told investigators the dogs that mauled the child were essentially family pets – a mother dog and six offspring from a litter she had about 16 months ago, the sheriff said.

The dogs had their own doggie doors that let them come in and out of the house as they pleased. The family told deputies the dogs had never attacked a person, though one of them might have killed a cat, Smith said. He said relatives insisted the toddler would play with the dogs and even "use them as pillows while watching TV."

Smith said the dogs looked healthy and well-fed, and investigators found no signs they were being used as fighting dogs by their owners.

"They said they have never been aggressive to other people," he said. "Why they got started I have no idea."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/28/monica-renee-laminack-pit-bulls-death_n_2973723.html

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Pit Bulls that killed Georgia toddler were family pets - not fighting dogs. (Original Post) OregonBlue Mar 2013 OP
Someone who is a dog professional knows why the upaloopa Mar 2013 #1
And little children Aerows Mar 2013 #6
I agree I think people have animals and upaloopa Mar 2013 #7
Sadly the same thing is true about children. wickerwoman Mar 2013 #12
Small dogs also. roody Mar 2013 #52
I agree w/that. I also think it's possible she hurt one of the pups.... Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #22
Blame the victim XemaSab Mar 2013 #30
Chill before attacking. A toddler isn't responsible for her actions... Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #34
My guess is the little girl made a movement that triggered a dog's prey drive Drahthaardogs Mar 2013 #37
We had 6 dogs and I think they feel we were all part of a pack so there were 8 of us in the pack if upaloopa Mar 2013 #38
What I don't understand... Orrex Mar 2013 #40
If you are asking me I don't know anything about pit bulls other that I don't want one as a pet. I upaloopa Mar 2013 #42
I think you're absolutely correct in that Orrex Mar 2013 #43
One properly socialized dog is rarely a problem lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #53
16 month old puppies are full grown Politicalboi Mar 2013 #2
It was the Mom and 6 mo old puppies. Still, they're about half grown. Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #20
16 months... not 6 Marrah_G Mar 2013 #21
Oh, I thought it said 6. Yeah, 16 mos old isn't a puppy. That's practically full grown. Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #25
I'll bet they had real cute names, too. TheCowsCameHome Mar 2013 #3
And Sassy sweetNsassy Mar 2013 #27
Boy, three, left with horrific facial injuries as Labrador savages him while mother strokes puppy JoeBlowToo Mar 2013 #4
Oh, of course Aerows Mar 2013 #5
How frequently do Labradors attack for no reason? Elvin Ives Mar 2013 #14
Sorry Aerows Mar 2013 #16
True enuf about labs. But German Shepherds can be dangerous. They are trained to attack Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #19
Indeed there have been Aerows Mar 2013 #26
Anecdotes are useless to try to prove something. For every anecdote about how good Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #35
Hey Aerows Mar 2013 #41
My daughter in law was attacked (bitten on the face) by her german shepherd. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #54
I am amused by the non-sourced data. "A study of dog bite data" with no source = nothing. uppityperson Mar 2013 #32
I have trained a few labs, and yes, they can be territorial aggressive Drahthaardogs Mar 2013 #39
No dog, no matter the breed, ever attacks for no reason. Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #46
Put a "Graphic" warning in the subject line, please Turborama Mar 2013 #44
They weren't controlling the dogs in any way. baldguy Mar 2013 #8
I have a 6 year old golden retriever footinmouth Mar 2013 #9
Because they are large dogs Aerows Mar 2013 #10
Exactly. No one with a brain would do that. nt Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #17
Yes, but goldens also have a reputation for being dumber than Palin, just like talkingmime Mar 2013 #23
People need to learn dog psychology and training Kolesar Mar 2013 #45
They've still got McCain/Palin stickers on their vehicles. Not much hope there. talkingmime Mar 2013 #47
My golden is not dumb footinmouth Mar 2013 #49
Wrap the leash around your hand so she's forced to be at knee range. talkingmime Mar 2013 #51
Message auto-removed april dreamweaver Mar 2013 #55
That's why I stick to cats Elvin Ives Mar 2013 #11
Wait for it :) Aerows Mar 2013 #18
Yeah, but when a cat DOES maul you... talkingmime Mar 2013 #24
You've never met my Loki. Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #33
Too many dogs of that size/breed in one house Marrah_G Mar 2013 #13
Horrible. The little girl was still in diapers. Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #15
My friend was attacked by a Yorkie sweetNsassy Mar 2013 #28
small dog jollyreaper2112 Mar 2013 #29
I would never care how friendly a dog or a pack, which they were, I would NEVER angstlessk Mar 2013 #31
Dogs can do no wrong! earthside Mar 2013 #36
(1) powerful animal (2) in pack (3) unsupervised geek tragedy Mar 2013 #48
As bad as a loaded gun killing a child! n-t Logical Mar 2013 #50
Here's why. Brickbat Mar 2013 #56

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
1. Someone who is a dog professional knows why the
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 06:41 PM
Mar 2013

dogs did what they did.
My guess as a non pro on dogs is that the dogs wanted to move up in the pack and they challenged the little girl for her place.
I've had horses and German shepards who needed to know where they fit in the pack or herd. If you don't let them know you are above them they will challenge you for your position.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
6. And little children
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 08:08 PM
Mar 2013

can't do that. Any parent that allows a toddler to be unsupervised around large dogs isn't a fit parent. A parent wouldn't allow a child around a herd of horses unsupervised, either if they had any sense, because large animals don't always know their own strength around small children. It's just asking for trouble.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
22. I agree w/that. I also think it's possible she hurt one of the pups....
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:03 PM
Mar 2013

and Mom came running to protect her puppy. Moms are seriously and dangerously protective of their pups, even though they were 6 mos old by then.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
34. Chill before attacking. A toddler isn't responsible for her actions...
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:27 PM
Mar 2013

toddlers do what toddlers do to dogs...pull their tails, hit them, hug them tightly. Read any book about buying a dog, and you'll find advice on the kinds of dogs to get when there are young children in the house, since youngsters are notoriously rough with animals. They don't know any better.

As it turns out, they weren't puppies at all. They were 16 mos old, not 6 mos old.

Before you attack....think.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
37. My guess is the little girl made a movement that triggered a dog's prey drive
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:37 PM
Mar 2013

If you do not have at least three dogs, you really do not have a pack and cannot understand pack dynamics, but anyway, prey drive triggered in one dog, pack dynamics kick in...

Orrex

(63,086 posts)
40. What I don't understand...
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:41 PM
Mar 2013

is that every time this happens, knowledgeable dog people immediately assert that the owners didn't know how to handle the dogs, typically while asserting that the dogs aren't any more dangerous than other breeds.

I've owned a number of non-pitbull dogs in my time, as have a great many friends, and never have any of those dogs bitten anyone, despite the owners "not knowing how to handle them." That is, neither the dogs nor their owners had any special training, yet somehow the dogs managed to keep from mauling anyone.

What accounts for this? How safe can these dogs be if they require special, high-intensity training to manage them in the home? If it's really the case that they're no more dangerous than other breeds, then why must they be treated with extra caution?

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
42. If you are asking me I don't know anything about pit bulls other that I don't want one as a pet. I
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:50 PM
Mar 2013

see all the time big dogs whose owners want big mean looking dogs. I will get slammed for this but I see lots of young men with macho looking dogs. I think the dogs they have has something to do with how macho they feel about themselves. And I think they don't know a thing about the dog's ways.

You don't leave little kids alone with a bunch of dogs of any breed in my way of thinking.

Orrex

(63,086 posts)
43. I think you're absolutely correct in that
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 10:07 PM
Mar 2013
You don't leave little kids alone with a bunch of dogs of any breed in my way of thinking.
I agree completely, and I also agree that a certain type of person is inclined to own a mean-looking dog as a symbol of toughness, etc. In my town there are quite a few dogs that could obviously overpower and escape their owners while they're out walking. They're acting like what they are: barely controlled animals eager to investigate anything that gets their attention.
 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
53. One properly socialized dog is rarely a problem
Sat Mar 30, 2013, 11:14 AM
Mar 2013

Three dogs of any breed are a pack. The difference with pit bulls is that they are big, powerful and bred for their capacity for aggression and violence.

I would own a pit bull. I wouldn't own two.

 

Politicalboi

(15,189 posts)
2. 16 month old puppies are full grown
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 07:18 PM
Mar 2013

All it took was for the child to pull the tail of one dog who was not in the mood. Or reach down to pick up food or a toy. Were the dogs fixed? That alone I would think could cause a fight. It may have started with two dogs, and escalated and the child was in the middle. And when that starts, it's hard to stop.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
20. It was the Mom and 6 mo old puppies. Still, they're about half grown.
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:01 PM
Mar 2013

The puppies possibly wouldn't have known what they were doing, but were following mom's example, is my guess. It's possible the toddler accidentally hurt a puppy, and mom came running to protect her pup. It can happen in a split second.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
25. Oh, I thought it said 6. Yeah, 16 mos old isn't a puppy. That's practically full grown.
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:05 PM
Mar 2013

I think 24 mos is considered full grown.

 

sweetNsassy

(64 posts)
27. And Sassy
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:11 PM
Mar 2013

Yeah, mine is named Sassy. So what?

Any parent that let's their tiny children around any large dog is just asking for trouble no matter what breed.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
5. Oh, of course
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 08:05 PM
Mar 2013

Labrador retrievers are known for blindly attacking for no reason. Next we'll hear of a collie and a German Shepard that did the same. Because there is no way that there can be a bad apple in the barrel of those breeds - but pit bulls are immune to having too many bad apples in the bunch.

 

Elvin Ives

(65 posts)
14. How frequently do Labradors attack for no reason?
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 08:49 PM
Mar 2013

If Labradors have the reputation you claim they have, why are Labradors not near the top of most aggressive dogs? In this huge study, they are in fact not among the 9 most aggressive dogs:

http://www.dogtemperament.com/the-9-most-aggressive-dog-breeds/

Who is it that views Labradors as attackers-for-no-reason, and based on which statistics?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
16. Sorry
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 08:56 PM
Mar 2013

I should have used the sarcasm tag. They aren't. They are highly intelligent dogs, and can be trained to do everything from using an ATM card to retrieving a handbag from the car.

I took it as a given that everyone would know that they are only aggressive when their owner or their family is in danger.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
19. True enuf about labs. But German Shepherds can be dangerous. They are trained to attack
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 08:59 PM
Mar 2013

because they are so good at it. There have been incidences of German Shepherds killing people.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
26. Indeed there have been
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:06 PM
Mar 2013

They aren't nearly as common as pit bull attacks, however. My elderly grandmother and aunt (she lived next door) had joint ownership of a German Shepard. These ladies were 89 and 90 respectively. He never, ever, even attempted to harm either of them, and took great pride in being protective with both of them. He wouldn't jump up, he wouldn't even bark too loudly at them. But god forbid a stranger climbed the fence and got into the yard. It was absolutely on, then.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
35. Anecdotes are useless to try to prove something. For every anecdote about how good
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:35 PM
Mar 2013

GS dogs are, you'll find an anecdote of just the opposite. What matters are statistics.

However, I agree that GS attacks are far less than pit bulls. Just from not reading about it in the news.

Try telling a few people that Toyotas are the most reliable vehicles in the world. I guarantee you'll get anecdotes about how so and so had one, and that car was always in the shop & cost a fortune to repair. Or tell a few people that BMWs are among the most unreliable cars, and you'll get anecdotes of just the opposite.

Anecdotes may be true, maybe not true. But they're just anecdotes, not stats.

I used to have a GS mix, BTW. One of the most loving, gentle creatures ever. VERY protective of our other dogs' puppies, though, when she had puppies.

uppityperson

(115,674 posts)
32. I am amused by the non-sourced data. "A study of dog bite data" with no source = nothing.
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:21 PM
Mar 2013

Why do you say a "huge study" when they write "a study" with no source, no actual data, nothing but "A study of dog bite data"? Let's see your statistics, or their statistics as "a huge study" and "a study" mean nothing.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
39. I have trained a few labs, and yes, they can be territorial aggressive
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:40 PM
Mar 2013

however, most of them do not "really" know how to bite, and if they do bite, they do not keep biting until the victim is dead. There is a thing in sport dog training called a "full grip" which means the dog really gets a mouthful on you and latches on. Most labs bite pretty shallow.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
46. No dog, no matter the breed, ever attacks for no reason.
Fri Mar 29, 2013, 07:54 AM
Mar 2013

There is always a reason. Just because humans don't know the reason doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

There was a reason those dogs attacked that toddler. It made sense in the dog world, to them. Not only that, to someone who is paying close attention, a dog SIGNALS an attack before it happens. It's subtle to humans, but the signals are there.

I watch Cesar Milan!

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
8. They weren't controlling the dogs in any way.
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 08:19 PM
Mar 2013

Nine dogs altogether - that's a pack. They could come & go as they pleased - they weren't "family pets", they were yard dogs that the people allowed to come in from the rain. The dogs had recently killed a cat, and the people seemingly did nothing. And the people certainly weren't watching their kids. "No criminal charges had been filed..." Why the hell not? Negligence? Child endangerment? Unanswered questions: Were the dogs fixed? If not, were there any females in heat? Or recently given birth?

No child should be allowed to play with any dog without supervision. EVER. It's a recipe for disaster. Don't blame the wrong end of the leash.

footinmouth

(747 posts)
9. I have a 6 year old golden retriever
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 08:24 PM
Mar 2013

They are one of the gentlest breeds known. I trust her with my life. I would still NEVER leave her unsupervised with a small child.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
10. Because they are large dogs
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 08:37 PM
Mar 2013

They don't know their own strength. That said, I still say owning a pit bull is playing with fire, especially if small children are involved.

You sound like an intelligent owner. These people were absolute fools who had pit bulls roaming around without supervision with a two-year old. Unbelievable.

 

talkingmime

(2,173 posts)
23. Yes, but goldens also have a reputation for being dumber than Palin, just like
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:04 PM
Mar 2013

pitbulls have one for being aggressive. Neither is inherently true. It is how they are treated and that reputation often guides people on how to treat them.

We've got a golden up the street who ACTS completely stupid. When she escapes, she comes straight for our house because she knows we treat her with respect and provide authority other than "NO, BAD DOG!" She does have the annoying habit of rolling over and pissing herself when she approaches you (submissiveness).

Every time, I throw a leash on her and even though her owners NEVER try to get her to behave on a leash, she instinctively knew from early on that a strong voice and "heel" meant "don't pull like an idiot". There's nothing stupid about her, they just treat her that way. When they meet half-way with their own leash, they hook her up and drag her home like a little red wagon.

I gave up on trying to talk to the owners about it because all they do is say, "yeah, but she's stupid." There's nothing "stupid" about being sweet and cuddly.



Kolesar

(31,182 posts)
45. People need to learn dog psychology and training
Fri Mar 29, 2013, 07:46 AM
Mar 2013

Your story makes me sad. At least you are trying to give the dog's owners some ideas.

 

talkingmime

(2,173 posts)
47. They've still got McCain/Palin stickers on their vehicles. Not much hope there.
Fri Mar 29, 2013, 10:37 AM
Mar 2013

When I was in 9th grade, my girlfriend locked herself out of the house where she was babysitting. It was a townhouse just like mine and I knew how to unlatch the window lock with a butter knife. Five minute run and I was back with one. There was a dog inside, probably 40 lbs, but it was snarling, barking, and wanted to rip my face off. After I unlatched the lock, I opened the window and crawled in with a "good puppy-wuppy woo" voice, callig it by name and doing some more "good puppy" stuff. It stopped barking. Sat down with a look that said, "Gee, I must know you from SOMEWHERE", and all was good.

footinmouth

(747 posts)
49. My golden is not dumb
Sat Mar 30, 2013, 11:00 AM
Mar 2013

But sometimes I think I am. She's had 2 years of continuos obedience classes and one year of agility training. We have still not mastered leash walking. I put her in a special harness which works, but without it I am so screwed.

That being said, as a responsible dog owner, I would never leave her unsupervised with young ones.

Talking mime, please come train my golden to walk nice for me.

 

talkingmime

(2,173 posts)
51. Wrap the leash around your hand so she's forced to be at knee range.
Sat Mar 30, 2013, 11:08 AM
Mar 2013

Just use a firm voice and say "HEEL!" I'm yet to encounter a dog that doesn't get the message within a few tries. You just have to be firm and consistent. And I certainly wasn't implying that your golden was dumb. They're just so sweet, cuddly, and submissive that they've gotten that reputation. They're pretty damn smart and are often used as service dogs. ACTUAL dumb dogs can't handle that role.

Response to footinmouth (Reply #9)

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
33. You've never met my Loki.
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:26 PM
Mar 2013

I've spent 30 years with cats and this one is the MOST aggressive one I've ever had. She was about 5 weeks old when I found her (she had been dumped) and every time I played with her I walked away bloody. I call her my psycho kitty. She doesn't get along with the other cats (she basically hates everybody but me and my husband) so we have to keep her inside. She walks by any of the other cats, who could be just sleeping, and hisses at them. The other cats are like, WTF is WRONG with you? But she's my psycho kitty and I love her.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
13. Too many dogs of that size/breed in one house
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 08:48 PM
Mar 2013

VERY irresponsible owners who have paid the ultimate price.

Dogs that kill are almost always "sweet and lovable"..... until they aren't.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
15. Horrible. The little girl was still in diapers.
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 08:56 PM
Mar 2013

One thing...what the heck was a toddler doing alone in the back yard by herself?

Second - you don't ever leave a child alone, unsupervised with a dog, much less let SEVEN dogs have access to the baby.

Third - These people know nothing about dogs, apparently. The dogs have to be taught that everyone in the house, including a toddler, is above them in status...dogs being pack animals.

4th - why did they have so many dogs? Uness they are rescuing them, that's a large # of dogs to have.

5th - I don't believe that none of the dogs had ever been aggressive in any way. Maybe they don't understand what aggression is, or maybe they don't want to admit it, since they are possibly going to be charged for a crime.

Horrible. Just horrible. That poor child.

 

sweetNsassy

(64 posts)
28. My friend was attacked by a Yorkie
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:16 PM
Mar 2013

and had to have 75 stitches in her lip and reconstructive surgery. Let's ban and ostracize them too while we're at it.

jollyreaper2112

(1,941 posts)
29. small dog
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:17 PM
Mar 2013

i have a small dog, a pommie. Has never, ever, ever even nipped in anger. But she has sharp teeth and strong little jaws. Any time a kid wants to pet her, I always get down on the ground and secure her head and pet while they can pet her back. Kids are scary, kids don't know how to behave around dogs. Even the nicest little marfer could nip with a kid coming in rambunctious and carefree. I want to protect both parties here, you know?

But the big dogs, they're fucking dangerous. My little dog, if she came at me wanting to kill, she can't. She could be demented and I can hold her off with a pinkie finger. An old grandmother could do the same. An angry pit, and angry rottie, I'd be hard-pressed to deal with them myself.

Don't get more dog than you're man or woman enough to handle.

angstlessk

(11,862 posts)
31. I would never care how friendly a dog or a pack, which they were, I would NEVER
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:19 PM
Mar 2013

allow my child to mingle with the pack...EVER

earthside

(6,960 posts)
36. Dogs can do no wrong!
Thu Mar 28, 2013, 09:35 PM
Mar 2013

That's mostly what I have learned from this thread.

If a dog chomps on anyone, even a child, it is the owner's fault ... or even the child if it hurt the dog.

Yup, I'm being snarky, but there is just something almost bizarre about this obsession and infatuation with canines in our culture.

In my opinion, it is just another manifestation of our 'bigger is better' and 'more is better' materialistic expectations.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
48. (1) powerful animal (2) in pack (3) unsupervised
Fri Mar 29, 2013, 10:47 AM
Mar 2013

with child (4) untrained.

Rule #1: Never leave a toddler alone with an animal or animals capable of killing him/her.

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