Surely not my post. And if someone replies to my post, then surely not their post.

Possibly post #3 or #5. Dunno which.

The virus works

Is Hedges already under the bus? Probably.

I consider him an oracle of our time. Will read. Thanks.

As Jimi would say, show he's had his fun. When Greenwald's big "NSA Watched Who" article comes out, I bet his name is one of those on the list. Going by their sense of humor, real reporters automatically are on it. The phonies, they're in on the joke.

Actually I can't think of any of our most credible writers and journalists who isn't?

These people who have undermined the Constitution and shredded the Bill of Rights swear they are in the public service. They lied America into war. Their families and cronies have profited from war. The courts stacked over the decades with their appointees give them impugnity. The economic benefits of the greatest wealth the world has ever seen are theirs as a result.

Thank you for noticing, Tierra_y_Libertad! ¡Palante, siempre palante!

...if not a century. For lack of a better handle, Bartcop called Them the "BFEE" for the Bush Family Evil Empire. I borrowed the term, finding them the public face of the secret government in service to the wealthy and their holdings. As an old person who remembers what life was like during JFK's administration, I find America's history since November 22, 1963 to be one long slog of war, which is why the words of the selected "president" George W Bush to be particularly telling:

"Money trumps peace." Uttered at a press conference at the White House on Feb. 14, 2007 in which not a single of the callow, cowed press corpse saw fit to ask a follow-up.

He said he would end the practice. Instead, he seems to have forgiven all concerned. Yeah, a puzzler.

I don't believe he's one of Them. I just think he has no choice in the matter.

Do you think he wants to protect Them?

Thanks for saying that because I've long since reached the point of utter neutrality about Obama, which makes a lot of the discussion here irrelevant and annoying.

People want to make it about how good or bad an actor is playing the role of POTUS. I loathed Dubya in the role, and like Obama more than any president in my lifetime-- at playing POTUS. But who wrote the script, who directs the production, who are the producers? It is the people who define the role of POTUS that are terrifying, not any individual playing it.

Poppy's old man, making deals with the nazis, fought against the New Deal for all he was worth.

Even implicated in a plot to Assassinate FDR. Such a wonderful and loyal family(loyal to money, that is) should go the way of that guy 'no one knows his name' and banish the entire clan. They've stolen enough from us by now.

Why would a supposedly democratic government want to arrest and imprison a certain group of people?

It has to be to shut them up to protect another certain group of people.

it's worth considering what a government can do with info about it's civilians.

Edwin Black spelled it out: Who enabled NAZI Germany to round up the Jews? Think IBM.

While I trust the vast majority of those who serve us in our government and military, I do not trust government conducted in secrecy. Whether through war, natural disaster or environmental collapse, when putsch comes to shove-off, you know the Bush affiliated members will do whatever is necessary to survive. The rest of us will be lucky to afford a few days' rations.

The Obama administration is irrevelent...sometimes the PTB have one of their own as president and sometimes not, but the policies continue on ether way.
Power is much to important to them to be a the whim of a democratic election...and rule from the shadows is just as effective as rule in the light.

It's not new, as some here like to say, but it has generally been purview of totalitarian states. Certainly no real democracy is going to be doing it.

it certainly does not bode well for a democracy. I think it's quite logical to assume millions of Americans are being classified into categories, basically pigeonhole based on character traits and predictive behavior. I find it quite unsettling.

where all of this is going to end up, but my hunch is NOT for the betterment of "we the people."

looking for terrorists. When trust starts to fail in a democracy it is an ominous sign.

What is the use of history if not to learn from it.

but I got it from 1984 & Player Piano

The works of Orwell and Vonnegut are tops in every way.

The great works of fiction contain great truths.

From France, a little 'Social Fiction' from Chantal Montellier...

NEXT!
...IT'S COMING ALONG WELL...A VERY NICE SCAR...YOU CAN PUT YOUR CAP BACK ON...

I SEE YOU SIGNED ALL THE DOCUMENTS YOU WERE GIVEN...NO REGRETS?
N...NO...SSS...SI...SIR...NO REGRETS...

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE GOVERNMENT?
I...I...APPROVE...OF IT...
COMPLETELY?
YES...COM...COMPLETELY...
GOOD! NO FIGHTS WITH THE OTHER INMATES OR GUARDS?

OH!...NO S...S...SIR...NO...NO...FIGHTS!

GOOD!...DO YOU STILL FEEL WE WERE WRONG TO MAKE YOU SUBMIT TO THIS OPERATION?
OH!...N...NO...S...S...SIR...I DON'T THINK THAT NO MO...MORE...

GOOD...YOU'RE FINE!...HOLD ON TO YOUR RELEASE SLIP...YOU ARE NOW READY TO FIND YOUR PLACE IN SOCIETY...

NEXT!

W-WARE UY GOWIN? LEEVIN?
YES...I I HAVE...MY...SLIP!...

LEE MEEYULONE! YU GOD NO RIDE!
AWRIDE! SHADAB!

(SIGN -) CENTRE FOR IDEOLOGICAL REEDUCATION - MINISTRY OF HEALTH
...MY...MY PLACE...IN SOCIETY...
MY PLACE...

eom

Who will tell you it is all legal and to keep us safe.
K&R...

with RFIDs - a certain contingent would say hey, what's the harm in that.

And the argument is a great rebuttal to the people who don't care because they say they don't do anything illegal.

Hadn't heard this POV before. Thank you for posting it.

that's where the metadata comes in....each individual marker may not in itself be important or accusatory, but taken all together, categorized, and compartmentalized, the metadata becomes a force to pigeon-hole and, if needed, accuse and denigrate the individual or the group. And as we know, since 2001, everybody and anybody could be a "terrorist".
Fear will drive this country to hell.

is labeling the Obama administration as Bush's Third and Fourth Term.

Third Term

Fourth Term

But I find that Obama has gone beyond Bush in some aspects. Such as punishing whistleblowers more harshly than Bush, and being more secretive since Nixon.

That one's all on Obama.

Seriously though, great post.

Everyone together now, "Hey, NSA, fuck you!"

And the reasons why the Founders banned the practice: it can only lead to mischief.

...and combine it with the awesome power of social manipulation/engineering, applied through social shaming, and you begin to understand JUST how pervasive the threat really is. It's a large part of why although I understand the intent behind the massive press of social shaming, I am against it as an organ of power.

A word from here, a word from there, a search term out of context and suddenly you have 'evidence' that someone did something that doesn't fit the 'modern view' once upon a time. We've already proven that it doesn't matter WHEN it happened (Paula Deen) and that no amount of money can stop it (the guy at Firefox) or even how big the target is (the entire videogame industry), the right words can stir up more people than any force can possibly stop. But it's all based on one belief: that what we're hearing, witnessing, or otherwise being disseminated is actually true.

Now don't get me wrong; Deen and the Firefox guy, I don't support them one iota. Not one little bit. But they were just test cases. They were obvious 'bad people' that no one was going to defend, but the real question was whether the power of social control would be enough to topple them. It was. And who defines what a bad person is? The narrative does. And who gives us the narrative?

The very people who have such a vested interest in keeping track of every little thing said, thought, spoken, or otherwise communicated. We have delivered the most powerful weapon into their hands of our own accord, and even worse...we're proud of ourselves for doing so. Don't think for a moment that just because the narrative is on our side at the moment that it can't and won't change on a dime's notice. Ask any Jewish person about it, as they went almost overnight from 'protected minority class' to 'just another white person'. A week ago, the same thing happened to Eurasians. The lines can be redrawn very, very quickly, and there are companies out there who specialize in doing just that sort of thing by poisoning both sides of the well simultaneously.

And that is not surprising.

He has far more experience on this issue than even I do, and I have many times more than DUers do.

Here is what he said in a couple of other paragraphs:

"The public debates about the government’s measures to prevent terrorism, the character assassination of Edward Snowden and his supporters, the assurances by the powerful that no one is abusing the massive collection and storage of our electronic communications miss the point. Any state that has the capacity to monitor all its citizenry, any state that has the ability to snuff out factual public debate through control of information, any state that has the tools to instantly shut down all dissent is totalitarian. Our corporate state may not use this power today. But it will use it if it feels threatened by a population made restive by its corruption, ineptitude and mounting repression. The moment a popular movement arises—and one will arise—that truly confronts our corporate masters, our venal system of total surveillance will be thrust into overdrive.

"The most radical evil, as Hannah Arendt pointed out, is the political system that effectively crushes its marginalized and harassed opponents and, through fear and the obliteration of privacy, incapacitates everyone else. Our system of mass surveillance is the machine by which this radical evil will be activated. If we do not immediately dismantle the security and surveillance apparatus, there will be no investigative journalism or judicial oversight to address abuse of power. There will be no organized dissent. There will be no independent thought. Criticisms, however tepid, will be treated as acts of subversion. And the security apparatus will blanket the body politic like black mold until even the banal and ridiculous become concerns of national security.

"I saw evil of this kind as a reporter in the Stasi state of East Germany. I was followed by men, invariably with crew cuts and wearing leather jackets, whom I presumed to be agents of the Stasi—the Ministry for State Security, which the ruling Communist Party described as the “shield and sword” of the nation. People I interviewed were visited by Stasi agents soon after I left their homes. My phone was bugged. Some of those I worked with were pressured to become informants. Fear hung like icicles over every conversation."

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_last_gasp_of_american_democracy_20140105

And the Americans who support the NSA's spying think they are the patriots. No. They are not patriots. They are ignorant and inexperienced. They do not know where the spying is going because they have never seen where it goes.

Thanks for the thread, Octafish.

You have to wonder, what is that information worth, to the people pulling the political strings. Why would our government spend all that time and money snooping, if that information wasn't going to be used, at some point, for something? How do we know that, in the future, it won't be someone like Dick Cheney, who decides that the democrats need to be whisked away to some North Slope work camp, for "reeducation?" What would J Edgar Hoover or Nixon have given, to have had that quantity of personal information on every American Citizen. What will the Koch brothers do, if they can gain accesses, through their political stooges,(by hook or by crook)to such a bank of personal information on you and me?

hardwired into your television set.

Like the Feds stated:

"Nothing is beyond our reach."



Thanks, 9/11

From when Gonzo was a squirt.

Whoever gave Dick Cheney a used heart, deserves the mother of all asskickings.

That guy's made a mint. Emptied another. And used the proceeds for wars without end for profits into infinity and beyond. Thank us very not.

His stash alone could save Detroit.

I call them, a rogue's gallery. Ali Bubba and his 440 thieves.

the American dream, for all, but the billionaires and the international bankster/mobsters.

"The thousand points of light," would be holding the US Constitution up to the daylight and seeing all the holes the neocons shot through it, down at the pig ranch. Meanwhile back at the boars nest ranch down in Waco, the chainsaws are rusting away now that Karl don't need to play Cowboys and Tali ban anymore. Talking about putting on the dog. That was the only thing Bush could really half assed do, play act. George was the Studio pResident. A friggment of Karl's twisted political imagination. The Make Believe pResident.

After watching the interview with Snowden the other night his real crime became suddenly apparent: he embarrassed the government and the NSA. He told us what we needed to know and what they thought they had safely under wraps. At least I hope it was apparent. I've thought so from the beginning but kept hearing the 'traitor' crap from people I never expected to. Heard on the news the next day that polls before the interview were around 50-something % thinking he was a traitor. 60% the day after thought he was a hero.

And, perhaps a little naïve here, but I'm also hoping the long history of at least believing you live in a free country counts for something. The 99% rallies may not have accomplished what they set out to but they did prove not everyone in this country is just going to lie down and take it. If some of the more dire predictions I just read in this thread were to come to pass . . .
I'm hoping they'll get more than they bargained for.

information gathering on US citizens.

Last edited Mon Jun 2, 2014, 12:33 PM - Edit history (1)

Hedges says it like it is.

Right?

"Americans who support the NSA's spying think they are the patriots. No. They are not patriots. They are ignorant and inexperienced. They do not know where the spying is going because they have never seen where it goes."

---Chris Hedges


IMO,
Hedges>>>>>smarter>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Snowden-hating DUers.

What other reason really makes sense?

DU's, and America's, lowbrow population will always fall for, "My Country, (even if)Wrong."


It was a common malady during the Vietnam years.

There will always be a certain number of those
weak-minded individuals who are vulnerable to it.
Just like repetition of lies causes some to believe.

Not everyone learns from the past and evolves.
Not even all moderates and "Liberals".

Nearly all Conservatives though.

Thank you, scarletwoman. You are so correct -- so exactly, precisely, immediately, and pertinently correct.

Just around the corner awaits the same peril that consumed Germany in the 1930s. It is so evil, many prefer to put their heads in the sand or sound off "yada yada yada I can't heeeeear you!"

Hitting the target requires great skill in aiming, as with the technique of releasing the bow and propelling the arrow. If off by a fraction of a millimeter, the point of impact of a target 50 meters away can be off by a meter or more. Such is the function of truth -- something that may be so small it can't be measure, or so huge that we can't recognize it when we see it.

Here's my algorithm or syllogism:

If ours is a democratic republic based on the constitution, then We the People are in charge, not the elected or unelected officials.

Secret government means some people have inside information and can act in secret, beyond accountability and above the law.

Therefore, the Constitution, the nation's laws and public accountability don't apply to the members of the secret government.

And that means this is no longer a nation based on equal justice under law, which is, from our -- you and me and what I hope are most DUers' -- way of looking at it, wrong.

Anyone who doesn't see that, isn't just part of the problem. They're in the way of its solution.

It's a testament to how deep the tentacles really are, how sick with propaganda we are and dumbed down to our own system of government and what it is supposed to mean...

...that any of this is considered debatable at all.

It's like waking up in an Orwell novel, when these people who can form complex sentences, who look as though they have been educated, some of whom even claim to be Constitutional scholars...can stand up in front of us and justify ANY of this.

I never truly understood how deeply money corrupts. I honestly never thought my country would come to this.

All perfectly legal thanks to Bush's and Obama's rubberstamping the numerous Constitutional rewrites that followed 9/11/2001.

I suspect that gay Americans will be the first group to be targeted with these new, bad laws.

i miss receiving useful to know things. keep DU relevant, Octafish!

The better the job that they do, the more valuable the become as a resource, and the more that they're able to lobby Congress for more capital and expanded responsibility.

Privacy rights be damned as long as the Almighty Dollar is at stake.

...like Carlyle Group -- always working the "inside angle" if you know what I mean.

And of course, very of this has to do with merit, as it does who's connected to whom.

The process of lobbying and contributions is used to sway CongressCritters to their way of thinking AND they're using our taxpayer dollars to do this.

IF we had completely publicly financed elections AND full voter participation, who would think that the problem would be as bad as it is?

about all those auto-hidden posts. Looks like I missed something. Or somebody.

Thanks again, Octafish, for what you do here.

I think it was a "he" based on the tone of the writing -- snippy when there was no confrontation. From what I could tell, there was nothing to indicate the person was a troll, other than pointing out NSA spying was still going on with Obama.

Most importantly: You are most welcome, navarth. Thank you for the kind words.