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Danger Mouse

(34,961 posts)
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 08:27 PM Jun 2014

Some things for us guys to keep in mind about sexism if we don't want to come off as jerks.

I posted this on Facebook, figured it was worth posting here, too:

1. Sexism exists and is a serious problem. Don't pretend otherwise.
2. Women know that not all men are sexist dickbags. Stop being so defensive, it's not all about you and your feelings.
3. No, you don't need to apologize for all the guys out there that are sexist. What you can and should do is point out sexism when you see it and stick up for the women in your life.
4. Realize that we have all been sexist at times. It's part of the culture we were raised in. Recognize this and try to do better.
5. Recognize the privilege being a man has given you.
6. There is no 'friend zone.' There is no such thing as being entitled to anything from a woman. If a woman is not interested in you, accept it and move on.
7. You are not a knight in shining armor. She is not a princess in need of saving.
8. Teach respect for women to the boys and young men in your life. Every boy who learns to see women as people and not objects to be won is a positive step in the right direction.
9. Don't talk about reverse sexism. It makes you look both sexist and astoundingly stupid.
10. Seriously, it's not about you. It's not about any one of us. It's about being a decent human being and treating each other with dignity.

Thoughts?

113 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Some things for us guys to keep in mind about sexism if we don't want to come off as jerks. (Original Post) Danger Mouse Jun 2014 OP
Wow. Thank you. Warpy Jun 2014 #1
Great post. Brickbat Jun 2014 #2
K&R! smirkymonkey Jun 2014 #3
Thank You mista411 Jun 2014 #4
These days Leme Jun 2014 #5
K&R nt laundry_queen Jun 2014 #6
11. Avoid "but what about men's problems" responses to discussions of misogyny/sexism geek tragedy Jun 2014 #7
Agreed with (most of) 12, at least. AverageJoe90 Jun 2014 #12
Racism is just racism, so the term reverse-racism is just silly. Danger Mouse Jun 2014 #15
Excellent post. K&R Louisiana1976 Jun 2014 #8
It's an old term, but that really is 'consciousness raising.' Thanks. freshwest Jun 2014 #9
Not so sure about 4, and definitely not 5, but everything else is good. AverageJoe90 Jun 2014 #10
You don't think we've all been sexist at times, even if unintentionally? Danger Mouse Jun 2014 #16
I'm sure it's happened to many of us.....possibly even myself. AverageJoe90 Jun 2014 #17
You may be right...but... Danger Mouse Jun 2014 #21
I would go so far as to say nearly every woman (maybe every woman) has been sexist spooky3 Jun 2014 #31
I think all of us have been sexist at some point, men and women alike. elias7 Jun 2014 #32
The terms "sex object" and "objectification" actually don't refer to thinking of someone as an DesertDiamond Jun 2014 #44
We need to stop viewing this issue as an exclusion of innocents. NO ONE IS INNOCENT... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #49
I would worry about actual actions, not "thought crimes" Demeter Jun 2014 #67
your framing of this issue leaves no hope. yodermon Jun 2014 #95
It leaves no false hope of an easy fix... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #99
Very true. Very true indeed. AverageJoe90 Jun 2014 #59
Thanks for clarifying elias7 Jun 2014 #68
That's not a stretch at all, actually. Every day we're alive, we are sexist in some way. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #46
I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to (partly) disagree on this one. AverageJoe90 Jun 2014 #58
"Racism is not normalized in today's society, overall." - It absolutely is. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #61
I have (some very logical & reasonable) doubts about that. AverageJoe90 Jun 2014 #62
My argument is not evolutionary psychology. It is not essentialist. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #63
"It is not inborn. You are not born racist or sexist." Well, glad we cleared that up, at least....nt AverageJoe90 Jun 2014 #64
Oh, They're Valid Points, All Right Leith Jun 2014 #18
Sorry that happened to you. =( nt AverageJoe90 Jun 2014 #19
If that should happen to you again, drive to the police station. nt raccoon Jun 2014 #70
I was just going to say that TorchTheWitch Jun 2014 #72
I hear you. Like not being able to get off work because a gang of them say they're gonna get you, freshwest Jun 2014 #82
mind if I pass this along? G_j Jun 2014 #11
KnR sheshe2 Jun 2014 #13
DUzy shenmue Jun 2014 #14
OMG this is awesome! passiveporcupine Jun 2014 #20
Great summation treestar Jun 2014 #22
i tell my husband artemis starwolf Jun 2014 #23
i'm left handed myself....so that much, at least, i can relate to. Danger Mouse Jun 2014 #24
surgical instruments and drugs are designed for men- they didn't test on women unless they had to bettyellen Jun 2014 #27
The lawnmower pull is maddening. I'll be buying your sufrommich Jun 2014 #33
Good points, and welcome to DU! (by the way, I bought a lawnmower with key starter spooky3 Jun 2014 #34
I Have a Funny Story from the Opposite Point of View Leith Jun 2014 #35
I have an opposite-opposite story :) Demit Jun 2014 #77
yep, me too artemis starwolf Jun 2014 #113
Great post. Consider starting a thread about this. As a lefty small woman, I totally concur. nt raccoon Jun 2014 #71
#10 truly sums it up mackerel Jun 2014 #25
Yes, my thought is don't act like you need to tell others how to act. n-t Logical Jun 2014 #26
Bravo! Excellent OP. sufrommich Jun 2014 #28
friend zone Eric J in MN Jun 2014 #29
usually people who use the term 'friend zone'... Danger Mouse Jun 2014 #37
A person may use the term friend zone in a sexist rant Eric J in MN Jun 2014 #51
I think the thing is- the friend zone only exists in the mind of the person not getting what they... bettyellen Jun 2014 #60
Exactly FrodosPet Jun 2014 #65
And he blames her for all of it. Instead of himself for not respecting her autonomy. He has got to bettyellen Jun 2014 #66
^ THIS ^ mac56 Jun 2014 #83
And it has a perfectly acceptable name for it already. NuclearDem Jun 2014 #39
A man would usually use that term about a woman he's attracted to... Eric J in MN Jun 2014 #52
The latter one sounds to me pretty similar to the former one. spooky3 Jun 2014 #53
In both cases Eric J in MN Jun 2014 #56
Indeed. Veilex Jun 2014 #40
What's quantifiable about it? Demit Jun 2014 #78
You're actually quite wrong. "Friend zone" denotes a romantic rejection by a woman... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #50
If a man says that Eric J in MN Jun 2014 #54
Wishing to have sex with someone is not the same as being "friend zoned." Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #57
I'll refere again to wikipedia for this discussion... Veilex Jun 2014 #88
I don't give a shit what a crowd edited encyclopedia... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #94
"You are trying to maintain the status quo." Veilex Jun 2014 #103
Not entitled to sex because he is nicer... Demo_Chris Jun 2014 #91
That is a ridiculous claim. He isn't being punished for being nice... Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #93
I was saying what those you use this terminology believe... Demo_Chris Jun 2014 #96
'Friend zone' is a term designated by the person who is being rejected. Danger Mouse Jun 2014 #98
I agree wholeheartedly. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #102
No, wait. Friend zone does NOT mean rejection knightmaar Jun 2014 #111
Do we then embrace intellectual consistency and apply this term to our close friends, too? LanternWaste Jun 2014 #90
And guys don't do that to women as well? LOL! I've done that bullwinkle428 Jun 2014 #92
Using "Friend Zone" still seems kind of icky to me. It implies something other than a friend. whopis01 Jun 2014 #100
Thank you! onecaliberal Jun 2014 #30
This post was better than I thought it would be IronLionZion Jun 2014 #36
Rec 50 and happy to do so. BlancheSplanchnik Jun 2014 #38
I wish someone had taught me about number 6 when I was in high school. NuclearDem Jun 2014 #41
Hmmmm... 3 & 7 seem to be at odds with eachother. Veilex Jun 2014 #42
What I mean in #3 is... Danger Mouse Jun 2014 #43
Fair enough. Veilex Jun 2014 #45
It is a good step to take. Danger Mouse Jun 2014 #101
Indeed! Veilex Jun 2014 #105
Danger Mouse, I send you a big, huge hug!!! DesertDiamond Jun 2014 #47
Excellent... one_voice Jun 2014 #48
k&r nt arely staircase Jun 2014 #55
Well done and thanks cali Jun 2014 #69
All good seveneyes Jun 2014 #73
This MynameisBlarney Jun 2014 #74
+1000 heaven05 Jun 2014 #75
well said! TorchTheWitch Jun 2014 #76
Kick for the truth. riqster Jun 2014 #79
I want to expand on #6. AtheistCrusader Jun 2014 #80
This. I'd rec a post if i could. Danger Mouse Jun 2014 #97
Great post! myrna minx Jun 2014 #81
That was worth the click tavalon Jun 2014 #84
good example of a real man! demigoddess Jun 2014 #85
excellent, excellent OP. Thank you magical thyme Jun 2014 #86
KnR. nt tblue37 Jun 2014 #87
Solid. Straight forward. Kind. Thank you. I hope you're cloned someday. nt ancianita Jun 2014 #89
Lose me on 5 davidn3600 Jun 2014 #104
If each gender has privileges, you should be able to recognize hughee99 Jun 2014 #107
I think men are just as oblivious to their privileges as women are to their own privileges davidn3600 Jun 2014 #108
Maybe you should take a moment and several thousand more to realize your own privilege. Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #112
K&R. Paladin Jun 2014 #106
Excellent! smallcat88 Jun 2014 #109
My thoughts exactly. Thanks n/t intaglio Jun 2014 #110

mista411

(11 posts)
4. Thank You
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 08:38 PM
Jun 2014

Thank you for posting this. We men have to change this sexist, misogynist culture that we've been trained in and contribute to.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
7. 11. Avoid "but what about men's problems" responses to discussions of misogyny/sexism
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 08:47 PM
Jun 2014

If you want a discussion on men's problems, start your own, don't try to hijack a discussion of misogyny/sexism, as this only indicates you're part of the problem

12. Drop the word 'misandry' from your vocabulary. While you're at it, lose "the race card" and "reverse racism."

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
12. Agreed with (most of) 12, at least.
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 09:01 PM
Jun 2014

"Reverse racism" doesn't exist at all; for it to be an actual thing, it would absolutely require that so-called "normal" racism have been the exclusive province of a single group. But it never has been.....and frankly, when reactionary conservatives use that term, it often tells me that deep down, some of them are really thinking "How dare that uppity (insert ethnicity here) be racist. Racism is OUR thing, dammit!".....because secretly, they believe that racism is a good thing and an essential part of being "proper" or whatever. Of course, every decent person in the world would disagree with that, but many of us do realize, I think, that some people still do think that way, even if such people (usually) aren't as open about it these days.

(Though, TBH, I'm no longer convinced that we should drop "race card" entirely, as white reactionary conservatives do play that kind of game sometimes, and they should be called out for it.....unless there's a better way to describe such actions, though I don't think there is.).


 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
10. Not so sure about 4, and definitely not 5, but everything else is good.
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 08:54 PM
Jun 2014

And the latter halves of 3 and 10, and all of 8, make up for the shortcomings of 4 and 5. So I'll give it a rec.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
17. I'm sure it's happened to many of us.....possibly even myself.
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 09:23 PM
Jun 2014

Everybody is a bit of a stretch, though, TBH.

Danger Mouse

(34,961 posts)
21. You may be right...but...
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 09:54 PM
Jun 2014

...if you can find a guy who has never been sexist, let me know.
I know it isn't me.

spooky3

(34,302 posts)
31. I would go so far as to say nearly every woman (maybe every woman) has been sexist
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 10:39 PM
Jun 2014

to some degree in at least one situation in her life (I am talking primarily about being sexist in interactions with women but it could also be true re: men). All of us who have lived in at least moderately sexist cultures at some time in our lives have been influenced by this and had/have to work on improving our behavior. In other words, it's not about us (women) as individuals either (in keeping with your #10). So I disagree with Joe and think you could have even taken it a step further.

Great list. Thanks.

elias7

(3,976 posts)
32. I think all of us have been sexist at some point, men and women alike.
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 10:41 PM
Jun 2014

Can any woman honestly say they have not been guilty of objectification? Do woman not check out guys "parts"?

Everyone should acknowledge it, because everyone has done it.

DesertDiamond

(1,616 posts)
44. The terms "sex object" and "objectification" actually don't refer to thinking of someone as an
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:24 PM
Jun 2014

object of desire, as in, simply, "I feel desire for that person." It refers to viewing them as an inanimate object, a thing, not a human being, but merely something that exists for one's own personal gratification. When one simply notices another person's physicality and feels desire, that's not something to feel guilty about. If one feels that person has no choice but to allow one to satisfy one's desire, if one thinks one can just do what one wants and doesn't care what that person feels about it, if one thinks that one has all the rights and the other person has none, then one is guilty of "objectification."

You may think women think that way, but out of the huge number of women I know, I don't know any women who view men in that way. I have, however, personally encountered many men who feel that way. And as Danger Mouse says, we need to acknowledge that it's part of our culture, and not all men are part of that, but too many are.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
49. We need to stop viewing this issue as an exclusion of innocents. NO ONE IS INNOCENT...
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:30 PM
Jun 2014

Do you get that? Some are worse than others but we are all part of it.

We are discussing a transcendental machine. It persists like a vapor in the air, hovering over all of us. And it fills all of our lungs.

How do you exist within a culture without being a part of it? There is no answer. The question itself is ridiculous.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
67. I would worry about actual actions, not "thought crimes"
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 07:55 AM
Jun 2014

And when you look at actions, yes, there are a lot of innocent people walking around, people who furthermore have no intention of ever acting in such a way as to injure or inflame or humiliate, or anything else, let alone assault or worse.

yodermon

(6,143 posts)
95. your framing of this issue leaves no hope.
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 03:19 PM
Jun 2014

There is no appeal to the better angels of our nature. There is no rising above the poisoned air since it's all-pervasive.
It smacks of Christian theology, "all your good works are worthless because your very nature is sinful."

"How do you exist within a culture without being a part of it" --> well by recognizing the aspects of the culture that are bigoted and working to counter them in our own lives. Exactly why all these threads on DU exist.

Why position it as "ridiculous" or with "no answer"? of course there's an answer.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
99. It leaves no false hope of an easy fix...
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 05:14 PM
Jun 2014

Reality can be a tough pill to swallow.

You cannot exist within a culture without being part of it. You can resist it and you should. But don't believe for a second you aren't a part it. That is a delusion.

There is no angelic center of our psyche. That, ironically, is the kind of dogmatic nonsense that you have accused me of participating in.

No part of us is angelic. Our conscience is the product of socialization. You can relearn how to interact or think. But that requires an immense amount of work.

The metaphor I used of the hovering mist can be solved by cleansing the air we breath and not by holding our breath. That requires systemic change and it will not come easy or quickly.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
59. Very true. Very true indeed.
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 12:19 AM
Jun 2014

And, as I've pointed out earlier, just saying that "everyone is a little sexist", actually has the effect, even if not intentionally so, of effectively minimizing the real harm that some women do face with misogyny, whether thru physical violence, or emotional manipulation, or rape, etc.

elias7

(3,976 posts)
68. Thanks for clarifying
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 07:56 AM
Jun 2014

I've followed thread after thread and have misunderstood the term. For instance, the whole Sports Illustrated thing...I got the impression that anyone who checked out that model's posterior and said to themselves, "now that is a great posterior" was guilty of objectification. I see that I was guilty of not exploring the definition, and I apologize for my ignorance.

That being said, I take back my comment in my previous post. In fact, I think very few people I have ever met are guilty of objectification. I really can't imagine a person literally ignoring another's existence and space as a person. I hate to make waves, but you're talking about a pathological state, and I don't think too many people, men or women, fit into that category. Mostly men.

Those that do are rapists and/or sociopaths. Thanks for clarifying.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
46. That's not a stretch at all, actually. Every day we're alive, we are sexist in some way.
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:25 PM
Jun 2014

All of our prejudices, and I do mean all of them, are actuated in tiny little ways at various parts of our social lives. And they are actuated persistently in the form of what many call microaggressions. I choose instead to see them as more fluid rather than single points. We flow from one prejudice to another. Occasionally we become conscious of this, we observe ourselves doing something wrong and we try to correct our actions. But the vast majority of the time we commit these little prejudices without thinking and without hesitation. Not because we are bad people or anything of that sort. But because it is normalized.

You do not correct these little acts of prejudice one at a time. Rather, you deconstruct and realign the thought patterns. You encourage yourself to view women or persons of color or gay and lesbian persons or transgendered individuals in a different light, even if it is only slightly. Over time, the way you think about and, consequently, the way you interact with the world and with others will change for the better.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
58. I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to (partly) disagree on this one.
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 12:17 AM
Jun 2014

Yes, by the way, I do realize that prejudices do remain (somewhat) embedded in society.....but, the truth is, not everybody actually participates in such, directly or indirectly(and this is also true for racism, by the way. Much more so, in fact). I cannot claim to have been always unprejudiced myself, but there ARE people out there who have been socialized in that manner. So there is hope.

TBH, though, this: "But the vast majority of the time we commit these little prejudices without thinking and without hesitation. Not because we are bad people or anything of that sort. But because it is normalized.".....even if you may not realize it, does end up having the effect of (unintentionally!) *downplaying* the effects that the worst forms of prejudices, at least, DO have on many people. Racism is not normalized in today's society, overall. Neither is misogyny. And yet, both still do great harm to people(especially People of Color, but yes, do remember that "white" folks are occasionally personally harmed by racist language and hate-motivated violence, intimidation, etc., and men are occasionally impacted by sexism).

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
61. "Racism is not normalized in today's society, overall." - It absolutely is.
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 12:32 AM
Jun 2014

And so is sexism and misogyny. And so are a million other prejudices.

We are an extremely prejudiced species. The very idea of forming societal groups predicates itself on the idea of acting upon prejudice. The vast majority of which is entirely unfounded.

Admitting this doesn't downplay anything. Refusing to admit it only means you are trying to maintain a false ideal of self-image. You are not innocent of sexism just as I am not innocent of sexism. When we start viewing these issues as systemic, existing in every facet of our reality, is when they will begin to diminish. Until then, they will fester and spread.

You can try and blame the ills of society on that one "pig" you see in your daily life. But, the truth is, they're a reflection of the very society to which you belong and the inflamed prejudice he or she shows is within you too, if only to a lesser degree.

"...in such moments of apparent clarity of choice, mystification is total."

Don't think you or anyone else is above this.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
62. I have (some very logical & reasonable) doubts about that.
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 12:44 AM
Jun 2014


We are an extremely prejudiced species. The very idea of forming societal groups predicates itself on the idea of acting upon prejudice. The vast majority of which is entirely unfounded.

Admitting this doesn't downplay anything. Refusing to admit it only means you are trying to maintain a false ideal of self-image. You are not innocent of sexism just as I am not innocent of sexism. When we start viewing these issues as systemic, existing in every facet of our reality, is when they will begin to diminish. Until then, they will fester and spread.


In fact, I have found that quite the opposite is true: accepting the conditioning that racism, sexism, etc. are *supposedly* inbuilt in humans(evopsych, anyone?), actually allows these problems to continue and prevents them from ever being truly solved. But realizing that such prejudices are NOT inherent in humans(as a whole, anyway), and that we CAN eliminate at least structural racism, sexism, etc.(even if it never entirely disappears on a personal level), then it becomes possible to actually treat the sickness.

But we must not allow ourselves to fall for the conditioning which we are told to accept. Racism, sexism, etc. are no more inherent in the human species than murder or rape. We can never entirely eliminate murder or rape, but we can make it more and more rare, until it is almost unheard of. The exact same also goes for racism, misogyny, etc.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
63. My argument is not evolutionary psychology. It is not essentialist.
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 12:51 AM
Jun 2014

Beyond recognizing basic structure of self and other.

I am speaking of the consequences of socialization and how it acts like a machine, taking these base pains and anxieties and fosters them in ways not capable of being independently imagined by the subject of the socialization.

It is the aggregate of prejudice which lays the path. It is not inborn. You are not born racist or sexist. You are born with the pain of reconciling the the self with other. As you grow, as your world grows, these seeds of prejudice are driven in different directions by the social world around you.

Leith

(7,802 posts)
18. Oh, They're Valid Points, All Right
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 09:39 PM
Jun 2014

Try, just try being a woman and go car shopping with a man tagging along. The salesman will not look at you, talk to you, or even acknowledge your presence except to tell you that he wants to move where you are so he can show the man the car better. It has happened to me more than once at car dealerships, music stores (looking for a keyboard for me), computer stores (I have a BS in Computer Science), etc.

I have been followed while I was on my way home from work. I ran a red light to get away from the creep. Once I got home, I raced indoors from the parking lot and looked out the window. The jerk pulled up to my car, checked it, drove around a bit, and left after about 15 minutes of checking around. Creepy as hell.

When you get similar treatment, come back and tell us about it.

Excellent list. Thanks for posting.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
72. I was just going to say that
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 08:35 AM
Jun 2014

And if you're somewhere where you don't know where the nearest police station is call 911 on your cellphone or if you don't have one or have it with you go to a place that's open and has some people in it like a mini-market or gas station or any other open store or business where you can hop out of the car and be inside in a few seconds.

The worst thing to do is to drive home because then the creep knows where you live.

I totally get it though that the instinct is to get to your safe haven which for most of us is our homes.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
82. I hear you. Like not being able to get off work because a gang of them say they're gonna get you,
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 10:22 AM
Jun 2014

and then you work all night long after your shift because you can't leave work safely. They wait all night in the lot before the place you work, and don't leave until nearly noon the next day. By then, worked for over 24 hours on your feet.

Oh, so many more things to say, the girls I've known who were kidnapped and held for sex by men they didn't know and all the other physical assaults one has had to deal with because men like to see a woman or girl jumpy. So yeah, women have to make their lives around that. Just the tip of the iceberg, but I won't go deeper because it might be a trigger to others.

But it's like a deer walking past a howling wolf pack, going for a meal. Just simply a sense that women are prey and they are ready to devour them like meat. They really enjoy their sense of power over women. It's all snicker, snicker, ha, ha, LOL for them.

artemis starwolf

(31 posts)
23. i tell my husband
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 10:00 PM
Jun 2014

That the world is designed with six foot tall, right-handed males in mind, so he needs to understand why, as a five/six left-handed woman, I get frustrated at times. Tools are harder to use and dangerous, lawn mowers are harder to start, ( the pull is on the wrong side for me) and just plain too many things require more physical strength than I have, especially since I have to use my non dominant side/arm to do it. If I ever win the powerball lottery I'm going to design and market tools that work ambidextrously and don't need a gorilla to start. And they'll come in pretty colors.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
27. surgical instruments and drugs are designed for men- they didn't test on women unless they had to
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 10:11 PM
Jun 2014

because they were "trying to protect our fertility" while forgetting we are built very differently. And someone here rallies on about unequal healthcare- because men CHOOSE to go to doctors less. HA..

spooky3

(34,302 posts)
34. Good points, and welcome to DU! (by the way, I bought a lawnmower with key starter
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 10:45 PM
Jun 2014

but after opening the instructions, I learned that I had to use the pull starter for an entire season before the key would work properly! So the world needs your inventions.)

Leith

(7,802 posts)
35. I Have a Funny Story from the Opposite Point of View
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 10:50 PM
Jun 2014

I'm right-handed, but my mom is left-handed. She sewed a lot when I was growing up so, naturally, she had left-handed scissors. If I needed scissors for anything, I borrowed hers.

After my sister (also right-handed) got married, my mom gave her a good pair of scissors. Sis wondered why the new scissors "felt funny," which left mom in hysterics. They were right-handed scissors which she had never used before. As for myself: to this very day (I'm 55), right-handed scissors don't feel right, either. I have to keep checking because I expect a "push" on my fingers.

My good scissors are neutral-handed.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
77. I have an opposite-opposite story :)
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 09:50 AM
Jun 2014

I'm lefthanded and my mom was righthanded. I use righthanded scissors to this day because that's how I learned to use them (backwards). Also, when I worked on a drawing board with a T-square, it was set up for a rightie and that's how I learned. Ditto for the ironing board; ditto for first learning to use a mouse. I do lots of things righthanded because kids adapt before they realize it. I did get leftie pruning shears, however, as they were mine exclusively and they were EXPENSIVE, lol.

artemis starwolf

(31 posts)
113. yep, me too
Tue Jun 3, 2014, 07:00 PM
Jun 2014

I write lefty but do a lot of things right, like use scissors. Good thing I learned young, because I'm a dog groomer, and lefty scissors are expensive and hard to find.

Eric J in MN

(35,619 posts)
29. friend zone
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 10:25 PM
Jun 2014

RE: "6. There is no 'friend zone.' There is no such thing as being entitled to anything from a woman. If a woman is not interested in you, accept it and move on."

The term friend zone means a woman regards a man as a friend, and isn't attracted to him. That situation does exist.

The sentences which follow don't negate the existence of that situation.



Danger Mouse

(34,961 posts)
37. usually people who use the term 'friend zone'...
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 10:57 PM
Jun 2014

...use it to mean they're being 'put there' by a woman for some stupid and arbitrary reason. like they think the girl should automatically want to be with them, and being put in the 'friend zone' means the girl just wants some jerk and isn't into the super nice guy that's right in front of them.

Eric J in MN

(35,619 posts)
51. A person may use the term friend zone in a sexist rant
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:36 PM
Jun 2014

...but the problem is the sexist rant.

It doesn't mean that that there is no friend zone.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
60. I think the thing is- the friend zone only exists in the mind of the person not getting what they...
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 12:22 AM
Jun 2014

want. And they need to maybe reevaluate the situation and decide if they want to get over it, and be friends or move on.
Sticking around in the friend zone and being resentful is ridiculous.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
65. Exactly
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 02:38 AM
Jun 2014

When a guy is in "The Friend Zone", he is not going to be a true friend.

He is going to be depressed, bumming, pining about wanting to be with her. The best thing in those circumstances - total avoidance.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
66. And he blames her for all of it. Instead of himself for not respecting her autonomy. He has got to
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 02:44 AM
Jun 2014

get the heck over that idea.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
39. And it has a perfectly acceptable name for it already.
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:03 PM
Jun 2014

Called "being friends."

"Friend zone" implies the guy in the situation is trying to score. Hence the term.

Eric J in MN

(35,619 posts)
52. A man would usually use that term about a woman he's attracted to...
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:40 PM
Jun 2014

...with the two common uses being:
- "I'm trying to get out of the friend zone with her."
- "Nothing will ever happen between us because I'm in the friend zone."

In the latter case, the man isn't trying to score.

spooky3

(34,302 posts)
53. The latter one sounds to me pretty similar to the former one.
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:46 PM
Jun 2014

If he had said "nothing will ever happen..." because "I'm not attracted to her except as a friend" or "we are not attracted to each other" or something along those lines, then I might see the difference.

Eric J in MN

(35,619 posts)
56. In both cases
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:50 PM
Jun 2014

...the man is attracted to a woman who isn't attracted to him. In one case, he's given up on the notion she'll ever be attracted to him, and in the other case, he hasn't.

 

Veilex

(1,555 posts)
40. Indeed.
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:06 PM
Jun 2014

I don't know where the notion that the term "friend zone" is synonymous with objectification. Perhaps its the assumption that someone seeking a romantic relationship exclusively wants sex? The friend zone does indeed exist... it is a quantifiable phenomenon that happens to men and women alike. Quite simply this: A platonic relationship wherein one person wishes to enter into a romantic (or sexual) relationship, while the other does not. It is generally considered to be an undesirable or dreaded situation by the lovelorn person. - thank you Wikipedia

This term is not inherently objectification, though it can occur.

All that said, sexism from both genders needs to be eliminated.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
50. You're actually quite wrong. "Friend zone" denotes a romantic rejection by a woman...
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:35 PM
Jun 2014

Which places the man within the realm of platonic friendship. It reflects a belief that men are entitled to sex or intimacy because they are "nicer" or more "gentlemanly" than other men.

Eric J in MN

(35,619 posts)
54. If a man says that
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:47 PM
Jun 2014

...he'll never have sex with a particular woman because he's in the friend zone, it doesn't follow that he believes that he's entitled to have sex with her.

Wishing that an attraction were mutual isn't the same as feeling entitled to have sex with someone who isn't attracted.


Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
57. Wishing to have sex with someone is not the same as being "friend zoned."
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 12:05 AM
Jun 2014

You can wish to have sex with a complete stranger. The underlying psychology of the "friend zone" is wanting to integrate sex and physical intimacy into a existing friendship but being rejected by the other AND then translating that as a personal slight because you feel you are entitled, by way of your "niceness", to sex and physical intimacy.

It also comes out of viewing every friendship, with someone of the gender which aligns with your sexual preference, as being a gateway to sex.




 

Veilex

(1,555 posts)
88. I'll refere again to wikipedia for this discussion...
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 12:50 PM
Jun 2014
In popular culture, friend zone refers to a platonic relationship wherein one person wishes to enter into a romantic or sexual relationship, while the other does not. It is generally considered to be an undesirable or dreaded situation by the lovelorn person.


Desire is certainly part of the equation... sense of entitlement, however, is not requisite to initiate the "Friend zone".

This definition can also be found within the Oxford Dictionary, as it was added in Jan. 22, 2014.

So, bottom line? Well, you're not exactly wrong... but you're not exactly right either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friend_zone

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
94. I don't give a shit what a crowd edited encyclopedia...
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 02:53 PM
Jun 2014

Has to say on the subject. People quote Wikipedia like it is an authoritative source. It's not.


I am speaking of a critical analysis of the subject. It is going to counter popular sentiment. I guess you didn't understand that before. I am questioning the commonly held beliefs associated with the friend zone. You are trying to maintain the status quo.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
91. Not entitled to sex because he is nicer...
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 01:26 PM
Jun 2014

But placed into the friend zone BECAUSE he is nicer. This is why there is self-loathing or at least a whiff of disgust there as well. In Ladder Theory terms, a true Alpha Male would rarely be placed into a friend zone and would certainly not remain there for more than the moment it took to tell the woman goodbye.

And this is the difference between being friends, and being in the friend zone. The former is a mutually agreed upon status both are comfortable with, the later is not.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
93. That is a ridiculous claim. He isn't being punished for being nice...
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 02:42 PM
Jun 2014

And it is stupid to assume that a woman would reject the sexual advances of a man because he's "too" nice. That just plays into the debunked idea that women are attracted to assholes.

Women with healthy psyches are attracted to men with healthy psyches. If you don't poses that, regardless of how nice you feel you're being, you're going to be turned down. And that is not a fault of the system. It is the natural byproduct of women who are seeking out men with the proper balance between ego and self-awareness.

I've met a lot of men who think they've been friend zoned because they're too nice. Every last one of them was rejected because they were either full of themselves or completely lacked self confidence. Not a single one had anything to do with women wanting alpha men (which don't exist, by the way) or assholes (which exist in spades).

The bottom line, however, is that if you persist in a friendship when you feel rejected or underappreciated, that is your fault.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
96. I was saying what those you use this terminology believe...
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 04:01 PM
Jun 2014

My own beliefs are my own, and I certainly have no interest in discussion them online.

Danger Mouse

(34,961 posts)
98. 'Friend zone' is a term designated by the person who is being rejected.
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 05:14 PM
Jun 2014

As such, it is a bogus term, much like 'reverse racism.'

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
102. I agree wholeheartedly.
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 05:17 PM
Jun 2014

It is a manufactured idea meant to maintain the illusion of knightly male machismo.

The entire discussion around alpha and beta men is deluded. It is a false dichotomy at its core.

knightmaar

(748 posts)
111. No, wait. Friend zone does NOT mean rejection
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 08:21 PM
Jun 2014

"Friend zone" means that you were too afraid to ask her out because she might reject you.
So you're just nice to her, hoping something will happen, magically, all by itself, out of your inherent niceness.
And therefore she thinks of you as a friend.

Oh, noes! The friend zone!

Only you can put yourself in the friend zone.
If you actually ask someone out and that someone turns you down, that's not the friend zone anymore.
That's just a person who doesn't want to date you.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
90. Do we then embrace intellectual consistency and apply this term to our close friends, too?
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 01:21 PM
Jun 2014

Do we then embrace intellectual consistency and apply this term to our close friends, too? Or is the 'friend zone' applicable only to friends of the opposite sex?

bullwinkle428

(20,626 posts)
92. And guys don't do that to women as well? LOL! I've done that
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 01:37 PM
Jun 2014

myself with women that have had an interest in me beyond just a friendship, and the feeling wasn't mutual.

The difference is, that they didn't become crazy or obsessive, and didn't engage in any kinds of behaviors that made me feel threatened in any way.

BTW, K&R for the OP.

whopis01

(3,467 posts)
100. Using "Friend Zone" still seems kind of icky to me. It implies something other than a friend.
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 05:14 PM
Jun 2014

If it were a woman that you were friends with, why would use a term other than "She is a friend." or "I am a friend of hers.".

If you do use the term "friend zone", do you use it for all your female friends, or just some of them? And if you use it for just some of them, what is the difference between a "friend" and someone who are are in the "friend zone" with? Why is there a need to distinguish between these? (assuming that you are heterosexual) Do you have any guys that you are in the "friend zone" with?

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
38. Rec 50 and happy to do so.
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 10:57 PM
Jun 2014

Really well said.


Also, thank you for not saying the more "popular" D-bag word. I find that so offensive in its conflation of "disgusting" with "feminine". Just like so many gendered slurs.

 

Veilex

(1,555 posts)
42. Hmmmm... 3 & 7 seem to be at odds with eachother.
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:10 PM
Jun 2014

Specifically the sections in bold:

3. No, you don't need to apologize for all the guys out there that are sexist. What you can and should do is point out sexism when you see it and stick up for the women in your life.

7. You are not a knight in shining armor. She is not a princess in need of saving.

Danger Mouse

(34,961 posts)
43. What I mean in #3 is...
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:16 PM
Jun 2014

...if somebody is being a sexist jerkwad, call them out on it. Don't ignore it or actively participate in it.

#7 is related to the whole nice guy thing...guys who think that they can 'save' a girl from the 'awful' guys she dates.

It's one thing to be there for somebody. It's another thing to think that they can't live without you.

I've fallen into this trap myself before. More times than I care to admit.

 

Veilex

(1,555 posts)
45. Fair enough.
Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:24 PM
Jun 2014

Allot of combating all this is deprogramming our society and instilling values, courtesies and niceties that currently don't exist...at least on a sizeable scale. A daunting task! Step one? Oust the republicans!

Okay okay...maybe that's not step one...but its a good step to take

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
80. I want to expand on #6.
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 10:19 AM
Jun 2014

As a guy, I just want to remind everyone, if you ever (male or female) meet a person that adopts and wears the phrase

'I'm a nice guy'

as a cloak or a shield, run. That person is an asshole. Run. Do not invest yourself in that person. They are lying to you, and probably to themselves too.

That phrase, when appropriate, is something attributed TO you, earned by your actions consistently over time. Like trust. It is not a status you choose and wear like a hat when you feel like it.


Every man I have ever met that has uttered the phrases 'but I'm a nice guy' 'she must like bad boys' 'nice guys finish last', etc, is as you say, a dickbag under the hood.

Don't invest yourself in a dickbag.

tavalon

(27,985 posts)
84. That was worth the click
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 11:39 AM
Jun 2014

I think all of us could use some moments of getting out of our skin. Being a white woman, there is much I don't understand about many colors of humans, male and female. And I make white woman assumptions, though I have a wonderful cadre of friends who are willing to show me the error of my ways and frankly, I think that's good. If I were a fish, I would appreciate being told that some creatures actually live in something called air, strange and freaky, but cool.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
108. I think men are just as oblivious to their privileges as women are to their own privileges
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 07:42 PM
Jun 2014

Now it may be true that feminism is trying to tear down these things. But that's not the point...nor is the point about who has it better off since that's all relative (the grass always seems greener from the other side)... the point is realizing the privileges exist....for BOTH genders.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
112. Maybe you should take a moment and several thousand more to realize your own privilege.
Mon Jun 2, 2014, 09:56 PM
Jun 2014

Realize it in its singularity. Not because others don't have privilege. But because I don't think you believe in your own.

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