General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCan we NOT disseminate the right wing meme that Bergdahl was a deserter here at DU?
Please, for the love of reason, stop. Just stop and think for one blessed minute. Bergdahl has not been court martialed and frankly even if he is, war takes a terrible toll and I have sympathy for those that crack under its stresses. The right wing is busy, busy, busy spreading pernicious apocryphal crap for political reasons.
And some of you are busy, busy, busy helping them do it.
What a shame.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)to be something most of us can find sympathy for - or it may turn out to be straight up kidnapping.
President Obama doesn't tend to do photo ops with people who ARE going to make his office look bad. I think they know what happened, and whatever it is, it isn't a story of treachery on Bergdahl's part.
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)which also would not surprise me.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)mopinko
(69,804 posts)at least there is always someone hammering on the lies, but it would be nice if there were a wall in the lounge where we could hang all the fox lies that we have slain with the truth.
Proud Public Servant
(2,097 posts)I can tell you, as someone who worked for a long time on Afghanistan for the US government, this is not a right-wing meme; it's been the governing assumption about Bergdahl throughout the Pentagon, the State Department, and other agencies.
I agree I see no reason to repeat it on DU, and I agree people are innocent until proven guilty; but don't be surprised, or cry "conspiracy," if this "meme" turns out to be the truth.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Cody noted in his Twitter recollections a story that others from Blackfoot Company relay. While soldiers were searching for Bergdahl, a platoon "came upon some children, they asked him have they seen an American. The children said 'yes, he was crawling on his belly through weeds and acting funny a while ago,'" according to Cody.
The platoon went to the village where the children said the American had gone. "Villagers said an American did come through the area and was wanting water and someone who spoke English," Cody shared. "Wanted to meet with Taliban."
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/01/us/bergdahl-deserter-or-hero/
I don't see this as being a left versus right issue. I intend to keep an open mind.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)Quoting secondhand "I heard this guy say this and these villagers said that" on Twitter while Bergdahl is in a hospital and probably very mentally fucked up and unable to defend himself is vastly unfair and in bad form. I think Bergdahl didn't fit in with his unit, didn't get along with his unit members, and was disillusioned and probably went AWOL because of that. That doesn't mean jack shit in terms of bringing him home. He doesn't need to be a hero to be worthy of rescue.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)so far he is anonymous, and reporters trying to contact have been unable. He is dispensing 3rd and 4th hand info, "recollections from others". Until someone comes forward with a real name and out of the shadows of Twitterverse, it's swiftboating.
(Some of the RW "indications" he was a deserter was that he once said he "wanted to someday walk the earth" and "to someday see what's over those mountains". What 20 year old has never felt that way? Hell, if those thoughts make a soldier a "deserter", we wouldn't have an army.)
pscot
(21,023 posts)what a sadsack.
sarisataka
(18,206 posts)Finds the story suspicious :
-he deserves to tell his side of the story. Even in the military you are innocent until proven guilty
-deserter or not he is still ours. Leave no one behind.
Even if we 100% knew he was a deserter I would still volunteer for a rescue mission.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)And his family is grateful to have him back.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)There were investigations when he went missing & I guarantee you there will be more. But I don't give a damn at no time do we leave one of ours there. I also have my suspicions as we were redeploying when this happened but as the Sec Def said 5 yrs in captivity is punishment enough, unless they find out he was aiding the enemy then my opinion changes drastically.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,355 posts)Deserter or not, we still want him back here. This debate about his status is really a way for the Republicans to invalidate his return/attack President Obama
FSogol
(45,355 posts)lame54
(35,130 posts)CanonRay
(14,036 posts)We are well and truly fucked. This is not even a country any longer...I'm not sure what it is, but I don't think we've been this divided since 1865.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)His becoming the eye of a political hurricane is going to be bad for him. TPTB have a habit for using the crushed bodies of service members as lubricant for inching their agenda forward.
Can we, here , be the legendary "cooler heads" and prevail?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)riverwalker
(8,694 posts)The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,149 posts)Your thread was disgraceful. You shouldn't be gloating that someone got their thread locked for a comparatively inoffensive cartoon, while your racist turd of a link was left up.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)People keep saying racist, which only seems to prove the point of what I was saying in the first place. Obviously enough people did understand though as both a jury and two host threads left it.
Replace white with any other race in many threads here and suddenly folks claim something is racist. If one is to condemn my thread as racist then I am pretty sure they will have a busy schedule ahead of them doing so to others.
The intent was never to offend, but to show how silly some things sound when you change but one word. Same could apply to gender threads I would presume.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,149 posts)like 'slant', designed to make the racist readers of the racist website laugh. That it made you laugh too should make you re-examine your ethics. That you laugh at having got away with posting should make everyone wary of ever agreeing with you about anything.
dballance
(5,756 posts)hamsterjill
(15,214 posts)It would not change my mind if I knew for a fact that a serviceman or woman WAS a deserter. He's still an American, his family has been devastated, and he is (obviously from media accounts) not in good physical and/or mental health.
All of that can be sorted out in the coming months. At this point, I am thankful that his parents are getting their son back alive. This family - ANY family - deserves that much.
So, what would those who are claiming he's a deserter do at this point? Return him?
Wilde once wrote that more often enough--life imitates art more then art imitates life. For this rationale, I feel that Bergdahl is the protagonist from Homeland.
Discuss.
malaise
(267,799 posts)because not one of those ReTHUG scumbags signed up for military duty.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Because "some of you" = "them".
panader0
(25,816 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And the notion that discussions at DU have some sort of impact on the wider world is, IMHO, not accurate.
Omaha Steve
(99,060 posts)Just so we know where the rumor came from.
OS
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/01/us/bergdahl-deserter-or-hero/
(CNN) -- The sense of pride expressed by officials of the Obama administration at the release of Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl is not shared by many of those who served with him -- veterans and soldiers who call him a deserter whose "selfish act" ended up costing the lives of better men.
"I was pissed off then and I am even more so now with everything going on," said former Sgt. Matt Vierkant, a member of Bergdahl's platoon when he went missing on June 30, 2009. "Bowe Bergdahl deserted during a time of war and his fellow Americans lost their lives searching for him."
Vierkant said Bergdahl needs to not only acknowledge his actions publicly but face a military trial for desertion under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
A reporter asked Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel Sunday whether Bergdahl had left his post without permission or deserted -- and, if so, whether he would be punished. Hagel didn't answer directly. "Our first priority is assuring his well-being and his health and getting him reunited with his family," he said. "Other circumstances that may develop and questions, those will be dealt with later."
FULL story at link.
bigtree
(85,915 posts). . .it's a campaign of innuendo, at this point, until all of the facts are revealed in some sort of investigation or hearing.
Omaha Steve
(99,060 posts)As the OP pointed out innocent until proven guilty.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)If Bergdahl was disliked by his fellow soldiers because he wasn't gung-ho enough, I can see them jumping to that conclusion.
Fact is, none of them saw Bergdahl leave. Nobody but Bergdahl knows at the moment what really happened despite what irresponsible journalists write in hopes of feeding the right wing smear machine.
840high
(17,196 posts)mindfulNJ
(2,363 posts)Thank you.
longship
(40,416 posts)The bottom line is that DUers seem to be willing to let the process proceed. That's always a good idea in these matters.
Meanwhile, the GOP presumes the worse only because of their hatred of anything Democratic and especially anything Obama.
Happy to R&
bigtree
(85,915 posts). . . about history, precedent, and policy. Moreover, they are mired in internet rumor and glaringly devoid of actual facts to support their yammering about the Sgt's conduct before or after capture.
The_Commonist
(2,518 posts)I have a friend who recently retired from the Army, as a full Colonel. She's anything but a "right-winger." She did tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now she raises bees and goats and strawberries and posts memes on Facebook about feminism and income inequality.
She seems convinced that he deserted. From inside info.
And yes, she's happy he was rescued, feels bad for him, and would trade 5 Talibaners for one GI any day.
But, not everything we don't like is a "right wing meme."
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)I will await an investigation and not rely on hearsay from faceless and nameless people on a chatboard.
liberalhistorian
(20,809 posts)I was thinking. I don't think any of us know enough at this point to make any fully informed judgments. And I'm certainly not going to go by the word of unsubstantiated posters on fucking Twitter and the like.
The_Commonist
(2,518 posts)The second best policy, is to not assume that everything you don't like is simply a "right-wing meme."
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"not assume that everything you don't like is simply a "right-wing meme..."
Unless of course, they are borne of, and consistently and repeated as such by right wingers.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)of the doubt. Even if he did walk away, his state of mind is very much something to be considered. With all the controversy around PTSD and the the treatment of mental health issues in the military, the possibility of him being in acute distress was the first thing to come to mind for me when this rumor started circulating. What if he was suicidal?
Bowe Bergdahl deserves a chance to heal in privacy and safety.
PS. I'm so sick of seeing John McCain trotted out there to comment in his "tut, tut" sanctimonious way. This guy has been wrong so many times on issues of war and peace and human interactions in general. He needs to sit down and quit interjecting himself.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)I have wondered more than once in the last day or so what the response would have been if, instead of release, the news had been that the Taliban had delivered another grainy video of his decapitation and directions on where to find his corpse.
I doubt that anyone would be pointing fingers at the supposed "desertion" and suggesting he deserves punishment, not praise.
spanone
(135,632 posts)bet on it!
onenote
(42,374 posts)Are we limited to his name, rank and serial number? There is, and has been for years, a debate over Bergdahl's actions. That debate was newsworthy when he was being held captive (as it was used by some as a reason not to seek his release) and its newsworthy today. And its newsworthy on DU. That doesn't mean running off and finding RW-websites to find as sources, but if the story of Bergdahl's capture is being told in the news, and the issue of how and why he came to be captured is part of that story, I see no reason for DU to put on blinders and ignore the story.
The late Michael Hastings wrote a very lengthy article for Rolling Stone magazine in 2012 about Berghdahl. It discusses the issue of whether he deserted or not. I would hope that it not be treated as a "RW meme" that is beyond consideration on DU.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/americas-last-prisoner-of-war-20120607
For the record, i don't know whether Bergdahl deserted or not. And I'm glad the moves were made to get him back. But that doesn't mean that discussion of the decision etc. should be off limits.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)It's been a pretty consistent account from everyone who was there at the time. Do your own search on Google and find old discussions- while he was until recently only discussed in military circles, the story surrounding his disappearance has been pretty consistent from a short time after his capture until now.
I find the most telling thing to be that nobody, not a single person, from his unit has popped up in his defense. As someone who has served that tells me more than anything else.
Not everything you don't like is a right wing meme, and attacking every vet who tells their account as right wing or a lair or uniformed isn't how we as Democrats should act.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Blanks
(4,835 posts)We do all sorts of things for counter-intelligence and counter-counter-intelligence.
They sure as hell aren't going to tell us - if he was on a top secret mission to gather intelligence on the Taliban, they (his fellow soldiers) wouldn't know either.
The folks who traded for him would know, but we may never know. I read something a few years ago about the family of Benedict Arnold trying to 'clear his name' because (according to them) he was on a mission to infiltrate enemy forces when he 'betrayed' us.
We can't just broadcast our intelligence plans in the open - a lot of people wouldn't approve.
* I am in no way affiliated with military intelligence. Pure speculation.
Kablooie
(18,571 posts)Deserting is generally being AWOL with no intent to return or with the intent to avoid hazardous duty.
What were the circumstances when he was captured?
Was he AWOL?
Were they in the middle of an engagement?
If he was AWOL was it his choice or was it because he was captured?
Until the details are revealed no one can reasonably make claims about this.
Of course 'reasonably' isn't in the Conserva-dictionary so its' a moot point.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)gear neatly in a pile and walked off into the night. who the hell knows?
seems suicidal to walk away from your base alone and unarmed, he probably had some big issues going on... PTSD?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)His history sounds like he was a bit of a dreamer with a (how can I put this generously?) somewhat rounded-up view of his capabilities, in particular as a wilderness survival expert.
IOW, exactly the kid you'd expect to say "fuck it, I'll hike to Pakistan" when the Army turned out to be an enormous disappointment, only to get captured a few hours later while copping a squat out in the desert.
Keep in mind that he only joined up when the French Foreign Legion wouldn't have him, which really says all you need to know about his expectations of a romanticized adventure.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)And whatever he did he has to find fault with...even making up shit.
spanone
(135,632 posts)BainsBane
(53,001 posts)and whatever that is doesn't need to be right- or left-wing.
Jakes Progress
(11,121 posts)We know you don't like this one.
But it seems you like any nasties about Snowden or Greenwald.
Give us a list and we'll fall right in lock step with your whims.
cali
(114,904 posts)period. and though I'm not a big Greenwald fan I've defended him here.
How about you apologize for making stuff up?
Jakes Progress
(11,121 posts)Made connections that were not correct. I apologize.
cali
(114,904 posts)no problem
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)This Group on Facebook linked below:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025038038
Now, the point of this crapola is --- the VA Scandal is getting old and the Right Wing needs a new SCANDAL. For them, this is it. For folks with brains, what we need to know if any truth exist to this story (which is doubtful) the Far Right Wing will push for Impeachment of the President based on this.
Either way, ignoring this is not for the present, going to make it go away. The Lemmings must be attacked at their source, linked on this page:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025038038
Or someone makes another page to counteract it in social media. What this really means is this is scary times. Similar to the McCarthy Era where folks can be tried and convicted however now in the "Social Media Court of Law" before they ever have an opportunity to present their own story. Sad and if we (as free thinkers) don't stand up to this....we might as well get use to the course of actions sure to follow the next months ahead.
riqster
(13,986 posts)csziggy
(34,120 posts)And how it is disputed:
In what appears to be an unprecedented move, the Pentagon also scrambled to shut down any public discussion of Bowe. Members of Bowe's brigade were required to sign nondisclosure agreements as part of their paperwork to leave Afghanistan. The agreement, according to Capt. Fancey, forbids them to discuss any "personnel recovery" efforts an obvious reference to Bowe. According to administration sources, both the Pentagon and the White House also pressured major news outlets like The New York Times and the AP to steer clear of mentioning Bowe's name to avoid putting him at further risk. (The White House was afraid hard-line elements could execute him to scuttle peace talks, officials involved in the press negotiations say.) Faced with the wall of official silence, Bob and Jani began to worry that the Pentagon wasn't doing all that it could to get their son back. As Bowe's sister, Sky, wrote in a private e-mail: "I am afraid our government here in D.C. would like nothing better but to sweep PFC Bergdahl under the rug and wash their hands of him."
<SNIP>
Officially, Bowe remains a soldier in good standing in the United States Army. He has continued to receive promotions over the past three years, based on his time in uniform, and he now holds the rank of sergeant. Unofficially, however, his status within the military is sharply contested. According to officials familiar with the internal debate, there are those in both Congress and the Pentagon who view Bowe as a deserter, and perhaps even a traitor. As with everything in Washington these days, the sharp political discord has complicated efforts to secure his release.
"The Hill is giving State and the White House shit," says one senior administration source. "The political consequences are being used as leverage in the policy debate." According to White House sources, Marc Grossman, who replaced Richard Holbrooke as special envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan, was given a direct warning by the president's opponents in Congress about trading Bowe for five Taliban prisoners during an election year. "They keep telling me it's going to be Obama's Willie Horton moment," Grossman warned the White House. The threat was as ugly as it was clear: The president's political enemies were prepared to use the release of violent prisoners to paint Obama as a Dukakis-like appeaser, just as Republicans did to the former Massachusetts governor during the 1988 campaign. In response, a White House official advised Grossman that he should ignore the politics of the swap and concentrate solely on the policy.
"Frankly, we don't give a shit why he left," says one White House official. "He's an American soldier. We want to bring him home."
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/americas-last-prisoner-of-war-20120607page=6#ixzz33VGlhdhJ
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook
If the Pentagon thought he was a deserter, would they have continued to promote him? Would they have protected him with nondisclosure agreements?
I defer to the knowledge of Bergdahl's commanders - they obviously did not label him a deserter at the time or since.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Promotions are automatic.
They won't mess with charges of desertion until he is back in US hands, if they do. They will simply record the evidence to be used later for whatever action is taken.
That is typical- most Soldiers who go AWOL in the states don't actually have charges filed until after they are back in military hands. The military simply puts a hold order on them in NCIC, waits for some police officer to make contact at a traffic stop or something, then comes and collects them.
csziggy
(34,120 posts)For me, that discredits the claim.
In addition, the nondisclosure agreements were not normal:
Bergdahl was not listed as AWOL:
I refuse to jump on the Faux Noise side of this situation.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)And they didn't get the idea from Faux.
Cha
(295,899 posts)"The Hill is giving State and the White House shit," says one senior administration source. "The political consequences are being used as leverage in the policy debate." According to White House sources, Marc Grossman, who replaced Richard Holbrooke as special envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan, was given a direct warning by the president's opponents in Congress about trading Bowe for five Taliban prisoners during an election year. "They keep telling me it's going to be Obama's Willie Horton moment," Grossman warned the White House. The threat was as ugly as it was clear: The president's political enemies were prepared to use the release of violent prisoners to paint Obama as a Dukakis-like appeaser, just as Republicans did to the former Massachusetts governor during the 1988 campaign. In response, a White House official advised Grossman that he should ignore the politics of the swap and concentrate solely on the policy.
"Frankly, we don't give a shit why he left," says one White House official. "He's an American soldier. We want to bring him home."
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/americas-last-prisoner-of-war-20120607page=6#ixzz33VGlhdhJ
csziggy
(34,120 posts)For instance, I am intrigued by this post that is supposed to be Wikileaks reporting of Taliban messages just after Bergdahl was captured:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5039057
Cha
(295,899 posts)951-Riverside
(7,234 posts)It eerily reminds me two face. "I don't know what to do! The coin won't tell me!"
Maybe Bergdahl deserted, maybe he was captured, maybe he deserted then was captured or maybe he was part of a secret intelligence operation.
Right now we don't know but I'm not going to form my opinion on the matter based on "my team" versus "their team".
SleeplessinSoCal
(8,992 posts)wish we could empty the place this way.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)It is rare that I find myself in disagreement with you. In this case, I have remained silent because I do not know what happened. The circumstances of his capture are difficult to explain. How he managed to wonder from a camp and get captured in the first place bothers me. How the Taliban forces were close enough to that camp, and apparently undetected is also troubling. That aside. The claims of his desertion have been bandied about since he was captured five years ago.
My opinion on the matter is simple. The Government has an honor bound duty to protect the citizens, no matter where those citizens are, and no matter what crimes they may be alleged to have committed. Bergdahl was and is an American Citizen, who was held hostage for five years. The Government has, and shall always have, a duty to attempt to retrieve that person no matter how they ended up being held hostage.
Prior to World War II, the 4th Marine Division was in China. They would run patrols, and generally speaking fly the flag to protect American citizens in China. The citizens knew they could count on the Marine's. Those citizens included adventurers, missionaries, diplomats, businessmen, travelers, and wanderers. How they arrived in China, for what purpose, didn't matter. What mattered was the Marines were there to protect them.
If Bergdahl did desert, for whatever reasons, that is not relevant to the issue. The Government has and always has had a responsibility, a debt of honor, to find and take necessary action to free citizens who were held hostage.
I don't know if he did wonder off in an effort to leave the Army and the war behind. I don't know if he deluded himself into the idea he was headed to China. I don't know if he just took a walk through an area he believed to be the next best thing to secure trying to gather his thoughts. All I know is that even if the worst about him is true, that did not relieve the rest of us of our responsibilities. He is an American Citizen. Because of that citizenship, we have a collective responsibility to see him freed from captivity.
I don't think I've been as clear as I usually am in my posts. For that I apologize in advance. I hope I have made the point that the principle of the matter is what counts, not the muttered charges. If we must begin to justify the expense and effort of our actions based not upon the principle it represents, but upon the value of the individual in question, then I fear we have moved far closer to the Oligarchy than I had previously believed. Wasn't it THX 1138 where he got away because they had expended too much money in attempting to capture him? If we have become that society, I weep for us all.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)They are convicting him with no evidence.
AceWheeler
(55 posts)...that the military would send soldier in harm's way, six of whom apparently died in the process, to retrieve a deserter. I can't even find words to express how impressed I am...
MADem
(135,425 posts)gone for 30 days, and the jury has not yet met to decide if he left with the intent "never to return."
We do know he likely went AWOL. He took off his helmet, his body armor, his specialized gear, and piled all that up with his weapon, and then went outside the wire. He left notes that suggested he might head to India. His father told him to "Follow his conscience" but I rather suspect his father meant "Make a CO declaration" not "Run away."
I don't think he's the brightest bulb on the holiday tree, frankly. He was home schooled, and he never had to compete with other children or be exposed to those kinds of stressors. He lived "off the grid" in rough surroundings, but I don't think he counted on the kind of stress that involves being surrounded by people determined to kill you.
But as I said, it doesn't matter. It's unlikely the Pentagon is interested in some kind of "Kick him when he's down" show trial. They want to patch him up, detach him from the service, and send him home.
He spent five years in a shithole. He is very malnourished. His mental state isn't very good. There is no "gain" in sticking it to him--he's already learned his lesson.
Don't worry about what "other people say." People can say what they'd like, and they aren't members of the Army JAG Corps, nor are they on the Pentagon legal team that will be deciding how this kid is going to be handled. Like it, or not, no matter what missteps this individual made as a result of intemperate reasoning or poor impulse control or what-have-you, the disposition of his case is in their hands, not the hands of a clamoring crew of wingnuts in Congress or in the hands of a bunch of armchair generals on the inter-tubes.
Chuck Hagel understands the "Fog of War." He realizes that not every schlub issued a weapon is Audie Murphy, Rambo, or John Wayne. Some soldiers are simply what's called a "Low Quality Recruit" and they can't handle the stress. I think that's where this kid falls.
Cha
(295,899 posts)AceWheeler
(55 posts)...in response to mine about the military trying to retrieve a deserter, I trust you know I was being sarcastic. I couldn't find words, because there are none.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Check the upper right hand corner of posts; that's how you can tell to whom the person is talking. Also, you'll see a response to you listed in your MY POSTS.
Welcome to DU!
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Had we stayed our asses out of there , well you know, left when we had the chance, instead of (troop surge). So whatever fallout comes from this, true, untrue, I do not care anymore.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)The argument seems to be that if a lot of right-wing slimeballs say something, and it's even on Fox News, then it must be false.
There's no reason to credit those people with reverse infallibility.
Disagreeing with them just because of who they are would put us in the same category as the Republican obstructionists who will automatically vote against anything Obama proposes, just because it comes from him.
RiffRandell
(5,909 posts)It's an article by Michael Hastings originally published in Rolling Stone in 2012.
Very informative.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/americas-last-prisoner-of-war-20120607
defacto7
(13,485 posts)So should I kick this OP or not? I guess I just did and so has everyone else commenting. So it's out there one more time. Let the speculation just die an Internet's death... by ignoring it.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Apparently he'll be court-martialed after all.