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ReasonableToo

(505 posts)
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 09:50 AM Jun 2014

So what of the desertion accusation?

Last edited Wed Jun 4, 2014, 11:43 AM - Edit history (1)

I have absolutely no inside knowledge of Sgt. Bergdahl's life just before he was captured or during the time he was captured. We may never never know definitively.

I do know that MANY soldiers became aware of the atrocities that the US committed and did not want to take part. The tales told by returning soldiers are horrifying. Just imagine that you are there and are aware of these atrocities. Imagine that your group had just done something horrifying and illegal or you've been told of your next orders. Imagine that it is another horrifying atrocity.

What do you do? Just go along with it? Argue with your chain of command? Self-inflicted wound? Suicide? Refuse to participate? Walk away?

Would you walk away?

edit: change "charge" to "accusation"
Add: link for people who don't follow Democracy Now and other coverage of veteran's stories
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/3/14/hundreds_of_veterans_of_iraq_and

14 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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SamKnause

(13,043 posts)
1. I don't mean this to be snarky.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 09:56 AM
Jun 2014

I would have done my research before I enlisted.

These wars are not being fought to protect U.S. citizens or to help the countries we are invading.

They are being fought to protect what our government deems U.S. interests.





LisaLynne

(14,554 posts)
2. Yeah, but many don't ...
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:00 AM
Jun 2014

because there is a lot of propaganda out there about how if you serve in the military you ARE protecting freedom and your country and all of that. These are usually pretty young people. Some of them don't have a lot of other options. Our culture is so pro-military I can't really fault anyone for buying into it and then realizing later what exactly being in the military can entail.

SamKnause

(13,043 posts)
4. I would have thought maybe his parents would have done
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:06 AM
Jun 2014

some research and had a talk about him enlisting.

ReasonableToo

(505 posts)
5. I respect your opinion and agree that it would be good if folks made informed decisions
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:17 AM
Jun 2014

the pro-military propaganda is so rampant that there are many young people that sign up before they are aware.

Many go into the military with the best intentions of defending their country. Some are lured by all the promises of the recruiters. Some feel they have no other viable options.

I had an uncle that was given a choice between jail or enlisting back in the 70's. Hardly a time for a well-researched decision.

Regardless of the various ways and circumstances of how sailors and soldiers arrived in the Middle East, I would empathize with even the most researched, hung-ho decision makers when their eyes are opened and they have a change of heart.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,780 posts)
7. FYI, they really don't do enlistment vs. jail anymore
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:26 AM
Jun 2014

Maybe if a defendant willingly offered, a judge would consider it. However, the military needs willing volunteers with technical skills. There are few soldiers anymore who are "just a rifleman".

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
12. What about the soldier who goes over there in good faith and suddenly realizes what he/she has
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 11:07 AM
Jun 2014

been told is all lies? I suspect there are a lot of them. I for one think the liars are to blame in this story and not the soldier who left the lies behind.

We need to start using war as a last resort and let the MIC find some other means of making money. The MIC needs to be held accountable for the lies they tell and the money they steal with those lies not to mention the lives they take.

ReasonableToo

(505 posts)
13. agree wholeheartedly
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 11:16 AM
Jun 2014

thank you for "getting it"

I was actually looking to see some empathy expressed for soldiers and sailors and airmen who become aware after enlisting. I'm sorely disappointed so far...

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,780 posts)
6. To expand on what SamKnause said.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:23 AM
Jun 2014

1) Every current serving member of the military voluntarily enlisted. There are no conscripts.
2) Every serving soldier takes this oath (officers take a variation on this):

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


http://www.history.army.mil/html/faq/oaths.html

3) Then an officer reads the Uniform Code of Military Justice to you and your fellow enlistees.


The paradox: Your duty is to obey orders, but "I was only obeying orders" is not a defense in doing the unlawful. You don't, however, walk away. Your duty is to refuse, and if necessary take your refusal a) up the chain of command or b) to the Inspector General.

In a combat zone, walking away would be "Desertion in the face of the enemy" (I believe that is still the technical term) and would be punishable by death or such other penalties that a court martial might determine. As a practical matter, even if he's tried and found guilty, he won't be executed.

FSogol

(45,360 posts)
3. The desertion "charges" are nothing more than a kangaroo court from Fox news and their RW allies.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:00 AM
Jun 2014

Until the military decides to charge Sgt. Bergdahl (which will never happen), there are no desertion charges.

No point in speculating or spreading RW talking points.

ReasonableToo

(505 posts)
9. I often think about ALL the people in the military
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:28 AM
Jun 2014

We hear bits and pieces and even detailed accounts of what happens in war and in the military in general. About women raped, civilians murdered, unlawful orders, incompetence, bullying of people who don't practice the "right" religion.

Expressing some empathy for a soldier was not intended as "spreading RW talking points". I'm not accusing him of anything. I'm asking what would any of us do if we were over there at that time.

FSogol

(45,360 posts)
10. The term "desertion charge" is a rw talking point. There have been no charges filed, yet the
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:42 AM
Jun 2014

soldier is being vilified.

As for your second point, we have a volunteer army. Staying out of the military is one way to avoid getting sent to a war zone.
My empathy for the Bowe extends to not considering him a deserter just because for RW fuckwits hate the President.

ReasonableToo

(505 posts)
14. the charge is "out there"
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 11:23 AM
Jun 2014

I'm attempting to "unvillify" and express empathy. If what you got out of this is that I"m spreading RW talking points then that's on you. Sorry that my intention is not coming across.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
8. There are a whole host of avenues one can take
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 10:27 AM
Jun 2014

Going to your chain of command and claiming a moral objection would get him whisked to the rear- on a small outpost like that they don't want someone that is dead weight.

If he isn't comfortable there, the Chaplin, or if he did actually witness a war crime or atrocity the IG or other avenue.

Even faking an illness or mental issues would have seen him evacuated to the rear.

ReasonableToo

(505 posts)
11. nope.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 11:01 AM
Jun 2014

I don't buy this sanitized "by the book" claim about recourses a soldier has in the field and that they'd just be sent to the rear.

we've all heard the stories about things getting worse after soldiers speak out - often detailed in suicide notes... quick search found this...
http://socialistworker.org/2005-1/542/542_06_AntiwarSoldiers.shtml (excerpt below)

"WHAT KIND of pressure did you face for opposing the occupation?

IF YOU'RE a soldier that your chain of command recognizes as a resister--a peace-freak, somebody that doesn't like the Army--you have an enemy on both sides of the wire.

The three of us have been labeled "shit bags" by the Army--that's what they like to call people like us because they don't like what we believe in. They don't like the way we see things, and we're pretty vocal about it. The chain of command can make it very hard on a soldier who constantly says, "This is fucked up, this is wrong," or just generally dismisses a lot of what the Army thinks is important.

I was really stressed out that I could go out and die--or I could get court-martialed and sent to jail because I said some bad things about George W. Bush and the war. So it felt like I had an enemy on both sides. There are people trying to fuck me in the camp and my chain of command--and then there are insurgents out to kill me on the outside.

The chain of command creates stress. And outside of the wire, you had to deal with blown-up bodies. Car bombs that killed innocent civilians. A little girl's pink sandals smoldering on the side of the road. A guy's face in a watermelon after a watermelon truck full of explosives blew up and killed Iraqi soldiers at a checkpoint. U.S. soldiers dying in Bradley tanks."

Patt Tillman was not sent to the rear. He was killed by the US military.

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