Sad

Folks like him are so far gone they are unreachable and stubborn. They savor their suffering and really don't have empathy in their souls. As Mr.T says "pity the fool".

Ignore the man behind the curtain.

perhaps unintentional.... this is a racist thread. What difference does his race have to do with anything?

ago and now you can start inferring a long-time respected member of this community may be racist when we know they are not?

You need to check yourself

two words... perhaps, unintentional. The man's skin color has zero to do with the story...unless that is the story.

poster, nor do you know the history of the subject on this board.

You owe Aristus an apology for even suggesting such a stupid thing.

to be faint praise or perhaps racist by unintentional posters.. I will comment.
-
I doubt if anyone here is all-knowing about what is or is not racist. Some never get beyond the superficial.

racist, homophobic, misogynistic, xenophobic etc. while the person telling them are unaware they are such.

I don't see the OP as unawarely racist per se, but the mentioning of the
conservative person's race did stand out.

I guess the question is: should the race of that person stand out or not?
If it were a white person, the race would not have been mentioned I
imagine.

Maybe the race is considered important here because most Black people
are thought to be amenable to social programs and liberality... and this
one had bought into the rightwing meme of rugged individualism.

Maybe the poster just wants to express frustration with his inability
to reason with the person and get a hand with it.

Maybe the poster felt compassion for the guy and just wanted him to
get the healthcare he needs and felt super bad that he wouldn't access
it.

Example: something can be sexist and not meant to be. Does not mean the AUTHOR is sexist.

The patient mentioned race. If you thought it was a white guy saying this about Af.Americans you might think he was a racist asshole, but the fact he's black and is broadbrushing an entire race which he belongs to makes him not only a racist, but a huge ignorant asshole as well.

it's about what is written specifically and what is said... and it is beyond the circumstances as explicitly shown.

-------------------------------------
the power differential here is great.
1. Healthy versus non-healthy
2. Working versus not
3. Homeless vs housed

--------------------------------------
look at structure of the post:

man is:
patient ( in title)
black ( in title )
conservative (in title)

then he is:
homeless
resistant
does not want "democratic" handouts

then
his whole family is welfare cheat, except for him ( according to him)

then
author gives him credit for being a good arguer

and it goes on......


the author disputes almost all the person says or said... either to his face or in this post

much is in question about this post in my opinion

I've never had an in-depth discussion like that before. I thought his outlook worth mentioning. Most opposition to President Obama and his policies are the result of hysterical, seething racism and bigotry. It was interesting to speak with someone whose bigotry was less race-based, and more class-based, instead.

Anyway, racism would be that I hated this patient because of his skin color. I don't hate him. And I don't even necessarily hate his political views. I was just surprised by them, that's all.

think they know everything.

You're due an apology.

I appreciate it.

and you acknowledge.. this is about him being black.
-
That he related his family traits is now ok.
-
Because a black man said them.
-
" His whole family are poor, lazy, shiftless, unemployed takers."

Not mine.

information.

You see it as racist.

I see it as you are seeing what you want to see.

pertinent to what?

Or a patient... or male...?

By a large margin.

I'm actually more amazed at his conservatism as a homeless man.

A homeless conservative? I met one recently. Cray cray.

that has been disparaged by conservatives voting conservatively seem an oxymoron. It doesn't matter if the person is poor, black, Hispanic, gay, female or a member of any other derided group , their choice to vote for people that advocate against them or others like them is perplexing.

Even if the person has been able to get ahead against the odds, through their own hard work and/or luck (almost always a combination of both), not realizing that most from their group (or the others) won't be so fortunate is a moral failure on their part and means their ego has overtaken their logic.

Those that never prosper but vote conservatively, I can only surmise are delusional and either think that they will someday win the "privileged " lottery, or just want to blame others, whether in their own disparaged group or another, for their misery.

This is the group that is the most mind boggling to me for instead of placing the blame on policies and people that deserve it, they place the blame on those in the same or worse straights than them. Yet, this is the group the conservatives are hell bent to win over with their divisive, media driven drivel. And sadly, it seems to work quite well.

when one says "person is poor, black, Hispanic, gay, female or a member of any other derided group" and a member of that group does note vote the way you or I prefer..... there is something wrong with them?
-
they are part of the same group that votes different than what you or I may prefer.
-
but YOU choose to single them out because they are "poor, black, Hispanic, gay, female or a member of any other derided group".
-
singly people out because they are poor, black, Hispanic, gay, female or a member of any other derided group sounds like ______ to me. ( blank can be filled with a number of answers, depending on why they are singled out).

the Republicans push policies that disproportionately harm minorities--and are *intended* to do so.

In fact, one of the main factors in the Republican base's support for Repubs is the base's desire that minorities (especially if they are black) be prevented from benefiting from government social welfare programs.

A black person (or a gay person, or a woman, or a Latino) supporting the GOP is as anomalous as a chicken supporting Colonel Sanders.

The anomaly is what made the OP take particular note of *this* particular conservative.

it seems you hold a portion of a group in some disdain. your post says

"A black person (or a gay person, or a woman, or a Latino) supporting the GOP is as anomalous as a chicken supporting Colonel Sanders. "

I just do not see specifically why race, gender or ethnic background should matter in opposing the GOP, nor should it be used against them when they do.

The black man in this story is being used by the OP as much as he would purportedly be used by the GOP. And it is HIS right not to be used as such by either. He is not a quantity, but he is used such, or might be used as such.

His race is what is the key factor, and he is being used, or potentially used.

the GOP's policies and political maneuvres are deliberately designed to harm who nevertheless support the GOP, and not only support the GOP, but especially support the specific policies or tactics aimed at harming *them*.

As a poor man with neither home nor health insurance, the man referenced in the OP belongs to a group harmed by GOP policies, yet he supports precisely the policies and attitudes that prevent him and others like him from earning a livable wage *despite* working hard and *not* freeloading at all.

As a black man, he supports a party filled with open racists who are not only *not* reigned in by party leaders and mouthpieces (Limbaugh, Coulter, etc.) when they openly express virulent racism, but are actively *encouraged*, sometimes somewhat subtly with dog whistles and sometimes much more blatantly, to hate blacks and other minorities.

The same open hatred is expressed by the base and encouraged by GOP leaders and mouthpieces against women, Latinos, gays and others who are not heteronormative. That is why we recoil in astonishment when members of those groups support the GOP, and even more when they support policies that harm *them* specifically--like women who believe women should earn less than men or be blocked from certain career paths; Latino immigrants who support vicious deportation policies that destroy families or uproot children who have never lived anywhere but here or spoken any language but English; Log Cabin Republicans who support the party that wants to deprive them of virtually all civil rights--etc.

Race, gender, sexuality, socioeconomic status, ethnicity--all these things are relevant to whether we find a person's support of the GOP or of its policies, attutudes, or tactics appallingly anomalous or not. We find these things appalling anyway, but we find them astonishing and anomalous when they are supported by the very people who are harmed and who are *meant* to be harmed by them.

in part or whole that:

the individual in the story was singled out because he was black.

The simple question is: Is this man willing to suffer and yes, die, for his beliefs?

Many conservatives want a reason to suffer, to feel bad, to justify their anger in some way. I think that all want to feel they are like the blessed Lord Jeebus, nailed to that cross, suffering for 'others.' If only they could find a meaningful way to do so.

They fail to see that all too often, the 'others' they are sacrificing themselves for are the wealthy takers. The sole reason we don't have decent healthcare in this country is the profit motive. The ACA, at best, chips away a little bit at that profit taking, but not that much. Frankly, anybody who is against such a mild form of socialism is, in a word, anti-social.

the program, rather than the person abusing the program. They would never advocate closing all banks and keeping your money in your socks because bank robbers exist, or banning credit cards because some people commit credit card fraud, but somehow abuse of poverty assistance programs is always the fault of the program's existence. That's how screwed up the message has become. That's how much this country has been taught to hate the poor.

I tried, a little more clumsily than you, to point out how much people hate "government giveaways" to poor people, while letting the billion-dollar boondoggle of corporate subsidies go unchallenged. He refused to face up to that point.

I'm curious why he hasn't made use of one, if he really believes his family is gaming the system. My guess would be, though, that whatever programs they are on are doing what they were designed to do- people in poverty are getting assistance from them, not actually doing anything wrong- and he has just swallowed the line about lazy moochers on tax dollars.

...with these morons. you're wasting your time.

Yes, with conservatives it is better not to rile them up in most cases. Rattling the guy's cage might cause him to register to vote!

see DU gender, privilege or NSA threads if you have any questions.

Poor devil. I feel the same pain for religious, gay, Republicans. Lots of cognitive dissonance going on there. Hope his mind will open.

If he registers for the ACA, and gets his diagnostic workup paid for, and the world doesn't come to a shattering, Wagnerian end, maybe it will change his outlook.

It is difficult to understand voting against ones self interest. I don't get it.

Last edited Thu Jun 5, 2014, 05:14 PM - Edit history (1)

Was he, is in his words, getting a 'handout?'

I find that kind of dissonance to often be the result of real deprivation and developing deep resentment early in life with some people I've met.

I'm talking of those who got welfare or food stamps and felt they had 'nothing,' and that 'no one cared.' Although they didn't really have 'nothing' or the fate of those for whom 'no one cared' or they would not have survived to adulthood.

Yet they cling to that sense of deprivation and anger, as if their old rebellion was the reason they made it, which is not true as they didn't invent food, water and everything else they got from others as a child to live.

His saying his entire family got welfare, and are cheats, seems to say he has trouble justifying his own survival. That system he decries is what fed and clothed him, did it not?

I say it did, even though he may have felt his family didn't care about him, or he would not be alive today. Not all people have been treated with love or even dignity and respect growing up in some families, but they were not deprived so much they died, unless things went terribly wrong, and that has nothing to do with welfare. He does not see his life and his survival as a gift and something to be built upon.

The fact that he is homeless and lives on the charity of others now, usually doesn't get through to such people as they want to think of themselves as independent, when none of us are islands. You don't get to just take as if you did it all alone and not pay back something.

I understand, too, that as a physician, you are not there to argue with a person who is obviously in need and ill in the first place. Thanks for an anecdote of real life people who take this tack.

And the post was not racist, no matter what anyone says, as he could have just as easily been any other color. But yes, the conservatives and Libertarians would love to get this guy on television.

He's pulling himself up by his bootstraps with donated boots, no doubt. That's what I see with some people here, who are all white, they have no appreciation for what others do, and spit on them.

Fulsome praise for those help others is not to be demanded. Gratitude for the belief in equality proven by the help, is healthy, even if no words are ever spoken. The other dynamic is not a pretty thing.

As long as he has no insurance, he can get clinical care here for free.

But it's things like diagnostic imaging, x-rays, CT's, etc, that are not covered under the grant, and for which I would need to refer him out.

I avoided mentioning this to him, because I try to avoid judging the people who come to me for help. I didn't want him to think that I would somehow avoid giving him 100% just because of our political differences.

The irony didn't escape me, though.

He's homeless, has a very poorly-paying job, and has no health insurance. What he's upset about that he thinks someone else has what should rightfully be his. And he refuses to blame the powers that be. He looks around, sees people displaying behavior he finds distasteful, and thinks that they are the source of his misfortune.

Republican divide-and-conquer techniques have worked very well.

He can't get a job at Faux?

They always vote against their interests also. My best friend is a gay black male former Air Force officer who describes himself as conservative, I love this man, I keep telling him he no longer can claim being conservative since they seem to have gone nuts. He feels many social programs have failed but he's not insane because he has said many times the government has a role in passing laws to improve the lives of people who live here. Where I live many of my black neighbors are conservative as well as the white neighbors so I'm not surprised by some of the goofy discussions we have, I live on the woods my county is about 40 percent black or native and we keep electing the GOP here.

The odd thing is, it was at a rally at the housing authority to protest draconian cuts they were forced into by the sequester! I'm like "Dude, who do you think is keeping you on the street?"

Ruckus, you better take your ass and get some of that damn ObamaCare before you go away from here and have a stone that says "Here lies Ruckus, he died of being a fool"

That's a hen's tooth, there.

has his own shack. But this loser's got nothing.

how much is that of his employer? I've seen this phenomenon before. Some folks are so grateful to "have a job", no matter how menial, they adopt the mentality of the boss. As an AA, we all know someone like this.



Sadly, I think a great deal of it has to do with acceptance or lack thereof, and a wee bit of self loathing.

Granted, the discussion was germaine to the visit, since the diagnostic imaging I needed in order to confirm my clinical suspicion is not covered under our grant, and would have to be paid for.

that make all the difference in the world. You sent him away with some things to think about. If nothing else, you gave him a direction towards better health. I don't care what kind of things a person spouts, I want them to have the best healthcare possible. Many of these individuals also have the upmost respect for doctors and nurses. They listen to them. Some of what he said may have been showmanship. Even at the end you were telling him his best options.