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doxydad

(1,363 posts)
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 06:45 AM Jun 2014

Home schooled kids are MORE prone to kill and be gun advocates. OR NOT?

I have noticed that home schooled kids are the people in the news shooting other kids. The kid in Moncton Canada, Adam Lanza, etc.
NOT SAYING THAT ALL KILLER KIDS ARE HOME SCHOOLED, but if you are seeing your mother and a cat named Theo everyday instead of interacting with OTHER CHILDREN, I can see where your world would be skewed. it's worrisome.

Ask any psychiatrist and they will tell you it's unhealthy...at....best...to not have interaction with other kids, and I'm not talking about other home schooled kids. That's akin tostaying in the same DNA pool. No good. Before you start sending me to a jury, this is MY opinion ONLY, but there's merit in it. As these shootings go on...you'll see what I mean. Besides, as a taxpayer, I am incensed that you feeel that your little angel is too goddamn good to go to as public school. That's a rant for another day.....

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Home schooled kids are MORE prone to kill and be gun advocates. OR NOT? (Original Post) doxydad Jun 2014 OP
I think it would depend upon the agenda of the parent(s). no_hypocrisy Jun 2014 #1
Broad brush much? Tsiyu Jun 2014 #2
Settle down Killer, it's just my opinion. doxydad Jun 2014 #4
Killer, really? Tsiyu Jun 2014 #5
you need to apologized for calling him Duckhunter935 Jun 2014 #7
That theory is perhaps a bit simplistic TexasProgresive Jun 2014 #3
that might be an interesting thing to think through ProdigalJunkMail Jun 2014 #6
Oh say, what is truthy...something that resonates with your beliefs? HereSince1628 Jun 2014 #8
What? doxydad Jun 2014 #9
My homeschooled "angel" read it and understood it. wavesofeuphoria Jun 2014 #12
Swell.. doxydad Jun 2014 #13
What does being a tax payer have to do with it? wavesofeuphoria Jun 2014 #19
I expect you to utilize... doxydad Jun 2014 #22
"I expect you to utilize MY tax dollars and send those kids to a regular school." wavesofeuphoria Jun 2014 #24
Excel at what? Socialization? doxydad Jun 2014 #29
No point was made. I asked for clarification of what your were wavesofeuphoria Jun 2014 #32
Oh, that ain't all you're saying. Iggo Jun 2014 #21
That's not supporting your position...it's a red-herring complaint HereSince1628 Jun 2014 #14
RE If you can't think of a place to start, you might start with answering these questions: doxydad Jun 2014 #15
IMO it garnered criticism because it comes off as evidence free HereSince1628 Jun 2014 #20
I believe the poster just wants to draw people into the thread Tsiyu Jun 2014 #10
Perhaps kids with mental health issues are more likely to not fit in at school hack89 Jun 2014 #11
but the spurious title of the thread was more catchy than that. NightWatcher Jun 2014 #16
Exactly Lee-Lee Jun 2014 #17
People home-school their kids for lots of different reasons. dawg Jun 2014 #18
Trash thread. FSogol Jun 2014 #23
It's an empirical question Recursion Jun 2014 #25
Save time. Try Joyce Foundation. Eleanors38 Jun 2014 #27
Page 242 in iBooks - Republican Gomorrah JustAnotherGen Jun 2014 #26
TY! doxydad Jun 2014 #28
Oh the author of the book JustAnotherGen Jun 2014 #34
I couldn't agree more! Parents should raise their children based on what I believe hughee99 Jun 2014 #30
Slightly off topic..but anybody else cringe at the lack of trigger discipline in the photo? EX500rider Jun 2014 #31
Maybe he's in the Secret Service. Orrex Jun 2014 #33
My brother and I missheidi Jun 2014 #35

no_hypocrisy

(45,771 posts)
1. I think it would depend upon the agenda of the parent(s).
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:02 AM
Jun 2014

Big difference between homeschooling Amish children and an off-the-grid Tea Party children for example. Both would be preparing children for an alternative lifestyle, but one would be grooming children to become religious peaceful farmers in a small community compared to grooming children to become purposely ignorant and ill-formed political and religious zealots, hellbent on "defending" themselves and "The American Way".

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
2. Broad brush much?
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:23 AM
Jun 2014

I guess you're looking for someone to blame for school shootings?

And you want to pretend that every school in the US offers a superior socialization experience?

And be hatin' on parents who pull their kids out of such awesome socialization cuz it offends you?

Okie Dokie.



http://www.inlander.com/Bloglander/archives/2014/05/06/more-parents-are-speaking-out-about-bullying-in-spokane-public-schools

Despite over a decade of increased national attention to the issue, countless awareness campaigns and the establishment of National Bullying Prevention Month, Washington state schools are still plagued by bullying and harassment. In addition to being shoved into lockers and beat up at recess, kids are also experiencing an unprecedented wave of social profiling online. There is no sanctuary. The impact is devastating, and it’s hitting Spokane hard. With lawmakers giving it little attention, perhaps failure to improve student outcomes isn’t a surprise. But for parents who are forced to send their children to a psychologically and physically unsafe environment to get a public education, the situation is unbearable.

“It’s so political right now,” says Lisa Hanson, a parent of two bullied daughters in Spokane. “There isn’t a lack of bullying but a lack of reporting and investigating.” She believes that Spokane schools are minimizing harassment and covering up evidence of bullying cases to score higher image points rather than doing anything to effectively curb maltreatment of students. “They are basically putting power in the hands of the bullies, and we are just along for the ride.”

Hanson’s daughters, Kathryn and Kari, are 19 and 9. For Kathryn, Spokane wasn’t her first experience with victimization. When living in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, she was terrorized by her peers to such an extent that she considered violence. “I knew that if I kept going to that school, I would bring my dad’s guns to school. I just stopped caring,” she remembers. “Having those thoughts of violence was actually the most terrifying thing to me.” Hoping for a new beginning, Kathryn enrolled in Rogers High School when she moved to Spokane.

The jeering and physical aggression quickly resumed where it had left off in Iowa. Due to a medical condition that affects her appearance, Kathryn says students incessantly teased her. She followed the process of reporting incidents to school officials, but things only got worse. In addition to harassment for her appearance, Kathryn was scorned for being a snitch. Hopelessness and helplessness began to shut down her social interests and deteriorated her academic performance




But maybe it's drugs?

http://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/

Fact: At least 33 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 164 wounded and 77 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public—neither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs). The most important fact about this list, is that these are only cases where the information about their psychiatric drug use was made public. (See full list below)


The below list includes individuals documented to have been under the influence of psychiatric drugs and not only includes mass shootings, but the use of knives, swords and bombs. 22 international drug regulatory agency warnings cite side effects including mania, violence, psychosis and even homicidal ideation.




http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/01/23/3192911/normal-school-shootings/

Though the sample size is far too small to draw any definitive conclusions, 2014 is off to a deadly start: in the first 14 school days of the year, there have been at least 7 school shootings. For sake of comparison, there were 28 school shootings in all of 2013, according to gun violence prevention group Moms Demand Action.

Purdue University is the most recent, when a 23 year old teaching assistant fired four shots inside a campus building on Tuesday, killing a 21 year old senior. One day earlier, a student was hospitalized after being shot near the athletic center on the campus of Widener University in Pennsylvania. And last week, there were at least three other school shootings, resulting in the hospitalization of five students between the ages of 12 and 18.

That number could have been even higher were it not for several near-misses. An eighth grader was arrested in Georgia last week after he brought a gun to school on consecutive days and robbed a classmate. On Tuesday, Portland police rushed to an area high school after a student was reportedly showing off his gun to a fellow classmate during lunch. And early on Wednesday four teenagers were arrested after they were seen pointing a gun at a school bus in Norfolk, Virginia.

Gun advocates at the National Rifle Association and elsewhere spent months after the tragic shooting in Newtown, CT calling for even more guns to be placed inside of schools in the form of armed security officials. And while many schools have indeed introduced so-called “school resource officers” in the last year, there is little evidence they are doing any good at all. Just about the only discernible impact of adding security officials into schools is a dramatic increase in the number of students arrested, sometimes for transgressions such as forgetting to wear a belt. More alarmingly, there have been instances of officers forgetting their guns inside bathrooms used by students or accidentally firing their guns inside of crowded high schools.



These schools sound awesomely safe and well- socialized....

And we hear of kindergarteners being tasered, extreme bullying in school, etc. so to act as if school is some haven of human interaction is a bit naïve to say the least.

But if it makes you feel better to post your OP and find a guilty party carry on




Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
5. Killer, really?
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:41 AM
Jun 2014




Wow. You can call people names but not debate the points you brought up in your own OP?

That's too funny.

I will leave you to whatever it is you're about this morning. Discussion does not appear to be in the mix

Peace


TexasProgresive

(12,148 posts)
3. That theory is perhaps a bit simplistic
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:29 AM
Jun 2014

True that many who home school are radical prepers and are likely to form their children to follow their lead but the home school parents and children that I know are fully integrated into a community of other children and adults. They even have extracurricular activities such as athletic and academic competitions.

The ones who are scary are those people who isolate their families completely. This is not natural.

Speaking of unnatural I have a theory that our school systems are perhaps a bit unnatural. It was probably not so much an issue when families were a bit bigger but many are only children. from cradle to the graduating from High School they are grouped with other children of their age. I don't know what effect this has on a person but when I was a child I was surrounded by children of all ages. The elders tended to look out for the younger ones and the younger children learned from them. This is probably a bit simplistic but there was so much peer pressure when I was a child since the peer groups weren't so formidable.

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
6. that might be an interesting thing to think through
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 07:50 AM
Jun 2014

we homeschool our kids and know dozens of homeschooling families. i wonder how many of the kids, however, might have been troubled kids who were taken OUT of public schools because of problems and then the problems were exacerbated...

sP

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
8. Oh say, what is truthy...something that resonates with your beliefs?
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:14 AM
Jun 2014

or something that can be supported by fact checking?

How could a reader have confidence that your appeal to an explanatory pattern for mass murder is a consequence of psychiatric contributions rising from isolation from public schooling is anything but a trick of the mind? A trick that causes you to idiosyncratically juxtapose things that bother you...home schooling and mental disorders in order to reduce your anxieties?

Survival is important to us and our brains work to understand and reduce fear and anxiety of the dangers we perceive. In doing this we reconcile one anxiety in the contexts of others, and consequently tend toward over-emphazing things that already bother us and for which we all ready have assessed beliefs. Not surprisingly these things often project otherness and difference from the "safe havens" in which we live.

It's important to employ critical thinking about "solutions" that emerge from inside the cocoons of our chauvinism...cognitive places that too readily endorses our personal situation in the world as superior to that of others.

It can 'feel so right' but it leads to the facile manichaeism

doxydad

(1,363 posts)
9. What?
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:18 AM
Jun 2014

Apparently, that 'Word-a-day' calendar was a great gift for you. I have not a clue as to what you are saying. 'Otherness'? WTF talks like that?

doxydad

(1,363 posts)
13. Swell..
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:33 AM
Jun 2014

As a taxpayer, I am upset and baffled as to why that kid is not in public school getting an education that I had and used throughout my entire life...and that I am paying for. That's all I'm saying.

wavesofeuphoria

(525 posts)
19. What does being a tax payer have to do with it?
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:10 AM
Jun 2014

Our homeschooling doesn't cost you more.

And, our education is at least as good as yours was; most likely, much better.

For examples, we learn to research facts and information about a subject, taking our understanding beyond our own limited experiences and opinions. And, when we encounter big words and more complicated explanations from others, we use our homeschool-learned critical thinking skills to understand them, rather than attempt to insult them because of our lack of understanding. I'm sure this will serve us throughout our lives.

doxydad

(1,363 posts)
22. I expect you to utilize...
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:11 PM
Jun 2014

...MY tax dollars and to send those kids to a regular school. What I know for sure..kids who don't have that interaction with all...and I mean a cross section of other kids aren't getting life skills, regardless of if the parents think otherwise. As far as the education, why can't you send them to regular school?It's tough to excel when you have nobody to excel against. Just my opinion.

wavesofeuphoria

(525 posts)
24. "I expect you to utilize MY tax dollars and send those kids to a regular school."
Sun Jun 8, 2014, 09:50 AM
Jun 2014

What a daft statement.

Really, just look at it. "I expect you to utilize MY tax dollars ... "

Do you think homeschoolers don't pay school taxes? Do you think homeschoolers don't have to file documentation of their education to the state or doesn't have accountability? It's really not clear what your taxes have to do with this choice. How does you paying taxes somehow take away my right to make a choice?

Again, a modicum of research (google "secular homeschooling" after googling "modicum&quot would indicate why people homeschool for non-religious reasons. A little more googling would show how your opinion is counter to studies examining how wonderful school socialization is. Point being, people have reasons for their choices beyond your experiences and opinions.

Finally ...
"It's tough to excel when you have nobody to excel against."

Another bizarre statement. Excel at what? Socialization?





doxydad

(1,363 posts)
29. Excel at what? Socialization?
Sun Jun 8, 2014, 12:56 PM
Jun 2014
Exactly.

Last year, we had 2 kids come from college to do their internships. One was home schooled until college, the other was just a kid. I got lucky, I got 'just another kid'. She was great, she had an outgoing personality, excellent attitude, she'll do fine. I would hire her in an instant. The other one, we'll call him Josh, could not INTERACT, could not follow instructions, and lasted 13 days. Thanks for making my point for me. Socialization is the root problem for several of these home schooled kids. NOW, that being said, again I repeat , this is MY opinion, but it is first hand experienced, and that's not the only example.


Because my self imposed 48 hour rule of posting/ answering is in effect, we're done here. You're not going to change, but every time another of these 'home schooled' shoots up something (like last Thursday), I'll put another mental check mark on the topic. It's been a swell conversation, have a great life.

wavesofeuphoria

(525 posts)
32. No point was made. I asked for clarification of what your were
Sun Jun 8, 2014, 01:58 PM
Jun 2014

referring to.

I see your big concern is socialization. Lots of research on that to consider.

There is also some research comparing homeschooled vs public et al. More than just anecdotal.

Next time there is any anti-social behavior involving a public schooled person, I'll remember these illogical and anti-intellectual approaches to discussion.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
14. That's not supporting your position...it's a red-herring complaint
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:33 AM
Jun 2014

about vocabulary, that your "WTF talks like that?" comment reveals as yet another attack on what you perceive as "otherness".

Can you supply some evidence other that opinion? Something that suggests you idea goes beyond you opinion?

If you can't think of a place to start, you might start with answering these questions:

What number and percentage of mass-murderers in the past 25 years were home schooled and which were not?

What number and percentage of home schooled persons manifest mental disorders compared to the percentage among the non-home schooled?



doxydad

(1,363 posts)
15. RE If you can't think of a place to start, you might start with answering these questions:
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:37 AM
Jun 2014

That's what I want to know..is there a correlation? OR NOT? I'm trying to see if there's something there or not. that's all. Why are you people sooooo goddamned defensive? I don't get it. It's a thread. Either leave it or love it or whatever. I'm going to go mow the lawn.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
20. IMO it garnered criticism because it comes off as evidence free
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 05:28 PM
Jun 2014

and facile.

The structure of your opinion appears rooted in an unsubstantiated claim that psychiatric conditions are responsible for these types of murders. And it has picked up a mechanism that, in your opinion and without substantiating evidence would generate said psychiatric problems.

It looks like a forgone belief linked to a questionable, cherry picked association. That's exactly what students of science are trained to avoid. Not surprisingly when such a form appears it garners criticism from people trained to guard against such a thing.

According to the Mother Jones database on mass killings, since 1983 only about 39 percent of multiple homicides are associated with diagnosed mental illness or unambiguous indicative symptoms observed prior to the event. If 100 percent of that 39 percent were all mentally ill because they had been home schooled (imo, very unlikely) it would still be only 39%, perhaps significant, but by no means a majority of the events.

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
10. I believe the poster just wants to draw people into the thread
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:24 AM
Jun 2014

Last edited Sat Jun 7, 2014, 11:32 AM - Edit history (1)

so he/she can insult them.

I think we call that "flame-bait."

But I liked your explanation.


Edit: or maybe it's "trolling?"

hack89

(39,171 posts)
11. Perhaps kids with mental health issues are more likely to not fit in at school
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 08:25 AM
Jun 2014

And are therefore home schooled?

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
17. Exactly
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:02 AM
Jun 2014

Parents of troubled kids may quite likely resort to home schooling because they don't like how the school system is treating them.

It could be that the school truly is not meeting the childs needs.

It can also be part of the same tendency I have discussed before to shield mentally ill children from the system, in a misguided attempt to avoid having them "labeled". The problem is sometimes not actually how the school system is treating the child, but rather that the parents don't want to admit what kind of help and treatment the child needs, so they remove them from the environment that is telling them what the right thing to do is or what the truth is about their childs behavior.

It is easier to live in denial about a child having issues if you isolate them.

dawg

(10,610 posts)
18. People home-school their kids for lots of different reasons.
Sat Jun 7, 2014, 09:06 AM
Jun 2014

I don't think it's fair, or a good idea, to make blanket judgments about the practice based on a few isolated incidents.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
26. Page 242 in iBooks - Republican Gomorrah
Sun Jun 8, 2014, 11:08 AM
Jun 2014

You are correct - some of them are. It's the same culture that encourages these people to beat their children until they "crumple to their breast".

It's all connected and it's quite scandalous. Read this book as we head into the midterms.



“An authoritarian Christian-right self-help guru named Bill Gothard created the home-schooling regimen implemented by Murray’s parents. Like his ally James Dobson, Gothard first grew popular during the 1960s by marketing his program to worried evangelical parents as anti-hippie insurance for adolescent children. Based on the theocratic teachings of R. J. Rushdoony, who devised Christian schools and home-schooling as the foundation of his Dominionist empire, Gothard’s Basic Life Principles outlined an all-consuming environment that followers could embrace for the whole of their lives. According to Ron Henzel, a one-time Gothard follower who coauthored a devastating exposé about his former guru called A Matter of Basic Principles, under the rules, “large homeschooling families abstain from television, midwives are more important than doctors, traditional dating is forbidden, unmarried adults are ‘under the authority of their parents’ and live with them, divorced people can’t remarry under any circumstance, and music has hardly changed at all since the late nineteenth century.”
At the Charter”


Excerpt From: Blumenthal, Max. “Republican Gomorrah.” Perseus, NONE. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=389053062

Rushdooney influenced Ahman - the reclusive millionaire who financed the opposition to Prop 8 in California. Rushdooney filters down to the Prince/Devos clan - the folks who are pushing Charter Schools. Did you know Erik Prince was in Manhattan in April at a "conference" with Hedgie guys to push Charter schools in NYC? What is it Mr Prince? Where do you live? UAE? Hong Kong? VA? So far as I know he's not a resident on NYC and he and his family/ilk need to go stick their noses elsewhere.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
34. Oh the author of the book
Sun Jun 8, 2014, 03:06 PM
Jun 2014

Sees it as you do too! If you get a chance - go to the African American group. I posted a thread about the Koch Brothers giving to te UNCF. I don't trust them. They are all connected Authoritarians with roots to Rushdooney. Without that fundamentalist Dominionist there would have been no John Birch Society.

There is evil in America and its wrapped up in Dominionist Ideology.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
30. I couldn't agree more! Parents should raise their children based on what I believe
Sun Jun 8, 2014, 01:00 PM
Jun 2014

is best for them, not what they might think. Who the fuck are they to think they know what's best for their child!

EX500rider

(10,519 posts)
31. Slightly off topic..but anybody else cringe at the lack of trigger discipline in the photo?
Sun Jun 8, 2014, 01:07 PM
Jun 2014

NEVER put finger on trigger until actually shooting gun at target....

Now back to the argument..

missheidi

(168 posts)
35. My brother and I
Sun Jun 8, 2014, 03:13 PM
Jun 2014

were home schooled, but to the shitty school district we lived in. The private schools were not much better than the public school, hence we were home schooled through middle and high school. We were home schooled by liberal, anti-gun parents, and we grew up to become liberal, anti-gun adults. It depends on who does the teaching, and what texts are used, IMO.

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