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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNSA: Our systems are so complex we can’t stop them from deleting data wanted for lawsuit
The National Security Agency recently used a novel argument for not holding onto information it collects about users online activity: it's too complex.
The agency is facing a slew of lawsuits over its surveillance programs, many launched after former NSA contractor Edward Snowden leaked information on the agency's efforts last year. One suit that pre-dates the Snowden leaks, Jewel v. NSA, challenges the constitutionality of programs that the suit allege collect information about American's telephone and Internet activities.
In a hearing Friday, U.S. District for the Northern District of California Judge Jeffrey S. White reversed an emergency order he had issued earlier the same week barring the government from destroying data that the Electronic Frontier Foundation had asked be preserved for that case. The data is collected under Section 702 of the Amendments Act to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
But the NSA argued that holding onto the data would be too burdensome. "A requirement to preserve all data acquired under section 702 presents significant operational problems, only one of which is that the NSA may have to shut down all systems and databases that contain Section 702 information," wrote NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett in a court filing submitted to the court.
The complexity of the NSA systems meant preservation efforts might not work, he argued, but would have "an immediate, specific, and harmful impact on the national security of the United States." Part of this complexity, Ledgett said, stems from privacy restrictions placed on the programs by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
"Communications acquired pursuant to Section 702 reside within multiple databases contained on multiple systems and the precise manner in which NSA stays consistent with its legal obligations under the [FISA Amendments Act] has resulted from years of detailed interaction" with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and the Department of Justice, Ledgett wrote. NSA regularly purges data "via a combination of technical and human-based processes," he said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/06/09/nsa-our-systems-are-so-complex-we-cant-stop-them-from-deleting-data-wanted-for-lawsuit/
Oh good grief is anyone really buying this bullshit?
I mean really?..... well I guess we will always a the usual suspects....... but really?
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)do some real time analysis on the full dataset and pull any flagged data out of it. dump the rest. they still would analyze everything... Just a thought. But, I did think they kept all the records by what I have read to date.
Leme
(1,092 posts)link this to that and make it too hard to comply without breaching national security or have an auto delete...does not sound that difficult.
-
too complicated to do also sounds "reasonable". Any excuse will do.
randome
(34,845 posts)The NSA has so much data, they likely have hundreds of automated systems in place that purge data periodically. It's not like someone has to actually push a button for every purge that occurs.
Big organizations dealing with big data have a lot of moving pieces. It can be difficult to allocate programmers to stop these automated scripts from occurring. Some purges that may stop can even affect other systems that expect the data to already be gone.
But what they might be able to do is copy the data for temporary review.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Not.
randome
(34,845 posts)Interceding could affect other systems. And, as pointed out below, the NSA is required to destroy this data periodically. I'm surprised the judge removed the previous prohibition so I'm betting we aren't getting the full story from the Washington Post.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)It is not difficult at all. You are mistaken on this point.
Why would it affect other systems to store the data? That makes no sense.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Really dude, it's getting embarrassing.
randome
(34,845 posts)Why did the judge lift the previous prohibition? Did he find the NSA's explanation plausible? And if so, why?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Thread after thread carrying their water no matter what the latest revelations are. On my phone I can't see posters' names on the thread-view but I knew who that was before clicking the post.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)With a master's degree in systems analysis and over a decade in the field, no, I'm not buying it.
It might take more man-hours, but they've got the budget. 'Too burdensome' my ass.
Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #4)
enough This message was self-deleted by its author.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)have a similar backgrounds they said
Yeah right ....this story stinks,
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)but you can't really say 'we can't mirror data we're collecting currently' to some place where it's not automatically being deleted.
So you mirror your data until such time as you've altered the code not to auto-delete it.
Again, it might be expensive, it might take a lot of storage, a lot of coding hours, but they've got the cash.
randome
(34,845 posts)Or even to prevent access without going through the secure route?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I'm sorry, but things like that aren't 'lost' in masses of code'. Permissions and limits on how data is copied are in very specific places, and if you're an admin on a system, you know exactly where to find them, because you're the guy that has to make changes to them or who set them up. And because the people who actually write the base code on databases thoroughly document how to set up permissions and tasks.
Seriously, the only argument you're making is that the people working for the NSA are too incompetent to know how to control their own code. Anybody who would believe what's being said here either is not in IT or is totally incompetent if they are in IT.
randome
(34,845 posts)Some are better run than others. Some can barely find the data they base their business on. I would assume NSA is better organized but who knows?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Sure, there are plenty of management hacks all over the business world, but the NSA recruits many of the best mathematicians, the best hackers, the best systems people on the planet. I'm sorry, but no matter how far over backwards you bend, this one simply isn't believable. Even a mediocre DBA and a couple of generic coders could do what they say is 'too burdensome', given the time. They don't need top flight people (which they have) in order to do it. Just not total incompetents.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)They don't make backups? Ha Ha. Yeah, just get a virus in there and let the whole thing get corrupted, then they just throw up their hands and say "Oh well, we'll just have to rebuild the whole thing from scratch!"
Only a person that knows NOTHING whatsoever about how IT shops are run would believe such bullshit. And purging the database. Don't even get me started on that one. Unless you take time-consuming steps, deleting shit out of a database doesn't get rid of the data - you can still access it.
This is literally the stupidest lie we've heard yet from the NSA. You would have to be an idiot to believe it.
randome
(34,845 posts)...of data they are legally required to destroy.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]
Tell me another one. As Erich said, these aren't incompetents. I don't know of one single person that has ever set foot in a server room that would believe this bullshit.
If you have set foot in a server room, and actually believe this, you need to find a new line of work.
randome
(34,845 posts)You don't think they have some system in place more robust than that found in the average IT shop to ensure the data is not recoverable?
When the 5 year limit is up, they probably remove the hard drive and melt it. Is that final enough for you?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]
Aerows
(39,961 posts)If you ACTUALLY believe this new set of lies and work in IT, find a new line of work pronto.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Wal-Mart is required to pay employees who work through lunches and breaks, too (regardless of possessing a system "robust" enough to track such hours). I imagine many simpletons believe they in fact, do.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)dickthegrouch
(3,151 posts)I remember a Royal Navy Admiral saying something to the effect of "In times gone by, we'd simply have fired a warning shot across their bows, these days the shot is too damned 'intelligent' and it hits them anyway".
All these kinds of systems can be subverted in an instant by someone who knows what they are doing. I agree that the NSA excuse is pure BS. The only bit that carries any merit whatsoever is that they'd end up with a few petabytes of data they didn't really want. Expensive to power, expensive to provision, expensive to hold idle for a couple of years, but re-usable after that time passes unless Moore's law applies to data storage as well as CPU processing speeds.
LiberalArkie
(15,686 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)No organization doesn't have hard backups, synchronized contingency storage and about 50 other ways to recover data from a database if it is needed, unless it is run by the least competent people in the world.
If there is a severe hardware failure, what do they do, just throw up their hands and say "Oh well, I guess we'll have to start from scratch!"
Who do they think they are fooling with this bullshit explanation?
enough
(13,235 posts)tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)smallcat88
(426 posts)that we're too stupid to realize it's bullshit.
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)What people don't get is Karl Rove is licking his chops to get this information and to turn the machine of government onto the people.
This evil must be dismantled.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)promptly destroyed if it is neither relevant to the authorized purpose nor evidence of a
crime.
http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2013/06/nsa-sect702.pdf
This being WaPo which is in the tank for the neocons don't expect clarity from the article, but from what I can tell the EFF is asking for info that Section 702, passed in 2008, would have required the NSA to destroy.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)From your link above, which is to Wapo.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)from my links.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)I'm discussing the WaPo article you posted above.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)her history proves she is not.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)this latest lie from the NSA has been debunked. Since technically the story won't hold up, better smear the messenger!
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)It was right there in your first post!
"This being WaPo which is in the tank for the neocons"
In the tank for the neocons isn't a smear to attempt to discredit the article!?
It has been proven illegal because what the NSA stated that they are doing is so ridiculous that no one in IT that is in their right mind would believe they can't stop data from being retained (or deleted - they contradict themselves so much it's hard to keep up with what lie they are telling from day to day).
It's absolutely absurd that they are claiming that they auto-delete and can't stop it, especially when they say right there in the post that there are "human processes". "Stop doing that" would be the first way to prevent it! So no, they aren't following the law. Which makes it ILLEGAL from a legal perspective.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)and never has been. As for your personal opinion everybody has one etc. Basically worthless without docs and you haven't yet posted a single link. Par for the course so carry on, this is getting boring.
JEB
(4,748 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)Everything that comes from an NSA spokesperson should be treated as bullshit until proven true.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)black is white, up is down....
Truth is secret, lies are public.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)from the NSA, and we've heard a lot of stupid lies from them.
You can purge data from a database, but unless you take very specific and time consuming steps, it's STILL THERE. How fucking stupid does the government think we are? And they don't make back ups? Well, gee, lets just introduce a virus in there and the entire system goes down.
"Human based processes". So does someone actually look at the data or not? LOL.
NOBODY that has ever been in IT for ten minutes could possibly believe such bullshit. Anyone that has ever been a Systems Administrator or a Network Admin/Engineer or in IT Security is laughing their asses off at this chunk of stupidity. Decent DBA's are laughing their asses off.
I've heard dumb lies before, but this takes the cake.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)SwankyXomb
(2,030 posts)They really don't comprehend things like due process and the rules of evidence.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)I have no doubt Obama is on that list and voila! it's too complicated to find his data. LOL...stupid fuckers.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Capitalism SUCKS.
There.
They consider THAT a "keeper".
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Destroying evidence ...good for them and those that love the NSA and the government spying on its own.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,153 posts)Cheney and his oopsy in deleting all his emails.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)business, there is no way they are purging data bases without human oversight.
They are the hoarders from that A&E TV show, but with other people's data.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)"Human Processes". Beyond that, nobody with any IT experience at all would believe such bullshit.
This is just the next in a series of lies released by the NSA so they can continue to operate and expand the surveillance state. Got to keep the money rolling in, and make sure no one gets in the way of profit.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)suspect that it is only a matter of time before revelations of that come out.
Uncle Joe
(58,107 posts)Thanks for the thread, Ichingcarpenter.
Javaman
(62,435 posts)it's just another catch all phrase to be bandied about until it becomes so ingrained into the modern nomenclature that it becomes the go to smoke screen for anything and everything the government or it's agencies don't want to do.
Newspeak (from the novel 1984) was a concept and program to eliminate words and phrased and make language more efficient.
The "Newspeak" employed in todays reality, instead of eliminating words, they use a refined version of double talk to confuse, obscure and detract.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)of ploy.
I dunno.
I can't.
I dunno how.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)Somehow I was reminded of the Parleds who pretended to be stupid to dupe the enterprise.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)minimize the crimes being exposed by Whistle Blower after Whistle Blower.
There are always enablers for one reason or another.
Ford_Prefect
(7,817 posts)All the data all the time with no legal logic for holding it, and no record of how they used the data or searched it. It is the opposite of a chain of custody for evidence.
Ultimately NSA operates in an extra-legal environment by their own admission. FISA is not equipped to acknowledge this nor is it able to accurately monitor the chain of custody.
Presently Congress cannot accurately determine whether NSA is applying its considerable and so far unregulated powers and budget towards protecting Americans from a genuine threat. Likewise Congress cannot determine whether NSA is instead trolling for information to protect itself from critics, and in the process acting as a government in the shadows by promoting its own policies through intimidation and blackmail. Apparently neither can the President.
During the "Cold War"period many excesses were excused under policies that assumed if anyone was capable of betrayal everyone was therefore suspect. The NSA seems to operate under the same dogma.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)We've created machines that are now running the show irregardless of what the humans tell it to do. I've always waited for the day that Science Fiction became reality. One question, by any chance is the system they have controlling all this data called HAL-9000?
"Hal, I want you to refrain from deleting the data."
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
http://www.palantir.net/2001/tma1/wav/cantdo.wav
This was an awesome movie man. I'm so glad we actually did it.