I have a huge number of records, bought two or three dollars was a lot of money! I never realized all the steps that went into making them, though. I "got" the whole concept of the master recording, but many of those other details were news to me!

And it's an awful, awful format. It's highly attractive as a collectible. Quality playback only exists for a re plays, and achiecing noise free is nearly impossible without ludicrous expense.

All of these albums are pressed from digital masters. Blu-ray audio has all the resolution, none of the crappy buts. There's also downloads from HDTracks.

I want to buy these physically, but it want a Blu in that box. The best quality, with the great aesthetic of vinyl. I own a bunch of it, and they never get played.

Please, just let the awful parts die. The snap crackle pop, the warping and the wiping. The difference of HD audio on unmolested recordings even of material from the 30s is quite tangible, and you'll never beat what is the original format: digital FORVTHE vast majority of the discs pressed. You're not gaining, just losing

WTH are you talking about??? You would have to have a lossless digital audio file of 32bit/384KHz to equal the resolution of a half speed mastered LP. Check your iTunes resolution out!!! A lossy, data compressed, 44.1KHz, 185Kbps AAC that makes my head itch.

And this "Noise" you talk about??? What are you? A Sony salesman from 1986??? Because digital can only capture square wave, they purposely add noise, called "dither" to fool your ear into not noticing the square wave. When I started playing vinyl for my young daughter, her first comment was, "....how quiet the records were in the silent parts." Unlike iTunes or Mass produced CDs where the "Woosh, Woosh, Woosh" of over compressed, over dithered causes almost immediate ear fatigue.

If you like hearing only 66% of the actual audio signal and a lot of dither, then by all means, continue purchasing your "Katy Perry" or "Justin Beiber" on iTunes.

Me? I will continue purchasing HQ vinyl.

Note: For portability (and vinyl preservation) I record my vinyl to 24bit/192KHz WAV files (best I can do at home) and then convert them to 24/96 FLAC for playing on my Android. I would rather have 50 HQ albums on my Android than 200 noisy, brittle, Mp3s or iTunes.

And every vinyl system can meet that spec...right?

The snap,crackle,pop,of vinyl,playback.

I'm listening to 192/24 digital, not loudness war compressed bullshit. Discs and files that have been properly mastered. Are you even familiar with what Neil Young has done on BD Audio, the stuff that was done for many DVD-A and SACD, much of which is on HDTracks now, and what Yiung is doing with his own player and service?

I don't think you read and understood what I wrote. Vinyl is crap, HD digital has all the good parts, but none of the bad.

In fact, I would say that HD Tracks has fully embraced the Loudness War. Two albums in particular:

1) Layla-
Layla is a great album, but the recordings at Muscle Schoals sound like crap!! All Tinny and thin. In fact, one of my long time endeavors is to find the best sounding pressing of Layla. I tried the MFSL. I tried HD Tracks. I tried Japanese pressings. I tried vinyl, CD, and flac. The best I've found is the MFSL, NOT "Remastered" (Remember how many times LZ 'Remastered' their library, and every time it sounds worse.) HD Tracks "Remastered" Layla by over compressing and re-EQing it to where it NOW sounds exactly like a victim of the Loudness Wars;

2) Joni Mitchell-Court and Spark-
Same story. Bizarre EQ. Overcompressed to Hell!! The master is better to begin with, so the phase distortion and 'Squaring Off' of the waveform is VERY noticeable on the HD Tracks.

I am aware of Neil Young's endeavors in HQ audio. I didn't think that he teamed up with HD Tracks. THAT would be tragic, because HD Tracks is complete bullshit.

Yes, Bickle!!! I DID read and understand what you wrote!!! I just know that you are completely wrong about vinyl. It is YOU who are not understanding that I just shredded your ill-informed thesis that "Vinyl is crap".

I suspect that it is your ears that are crap!! If you work in the audio industry, please don't go anywhere near any project that I mixed.

They have to use what the studios give them. Some of those tracks are molested, many are not. It doesn't change the point I was making, that vinyl is garbage as it degrades with every playback, is extremely prone to physical and analog interference, debris, and damage, and hi-res digital offers all the good without a bad.

Metallica is a great example. Their new album want on Guitar Hero unmolested, but the CD was loudness war'd. Tons of people were downloading game audio ripped to get the richer tracks.

An interesting one is the Green Day Hires, where the vocals are deliberately compressed to hell, the albums are recorded digitally but mixed and EQ analog. It definitely sounds way better than the CD Or vinyl

From The Original Master Recordings are done by places like MFSL or the old "Classic Records".

"Metallica is a great example. Their new album want on Guitar Hero unmolested, but the CD was loudness war'd. Tons of people were downloading game audio ripped to get the richer tracks."

Was that a quote from 2008 or something? Yes!! The Metallica debacle is well known. But half of that is Rick Rubin and his BS!! That dude does the same stupid overcompressing BS to everything he touches. And Guitar Hero hasn't been around since 2010.

Give me one recording that is a "loudness war" thT they remastered. And I'll check that they did it. Because when it cones to,pop/rock they take what they're given. They do not master every track on their service 100%, as many of them are identical to previous DVD Audio or SACD

WHICH STILL DIESNT INVALIDATE, EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE, YIRES DIGITAL AUDIO OVER VINYL

Frankly, after those 2 experiences, I knew not to waste my money on HD Tracks. I heard the same complaints from fellow audio professionals and audiophiles.

IDK exactly what HD Tracks does. I don't care. But those 2 albums in particular were OBVIOUSLY remastered. And Remastered in a way to try to make them sound more like the current crop of Brickwalled, instant ear fatigue recordings that are most common today.

HD Tracks are NOT using the Original Master Recordings as a source. The Original Master Recordings are almost always better. MoFi is the place that takes the original master recordings and releases them on Vinyl, CD, and Hi-Res flacs.

http://www.mofi.com/

Digital is GREAT for portability. Hi-Res Digital is freaking fantastic sounding. ALMOST as good as analog. But, the analog is still.... well... Analog. Analog: Root word is "Analogous" meaning the signal you put in is darn near the signal you get out. Digital is virtual. A bunch of tiny square waves packed together tightly, in the hopes that the listener cannot notice the square waves and perceives the playback as continuous sound waves.

Have you ever played with an old Mini-Moog or Roland Juno synthesizer? Have you ever built a sound using the Square Wave Oscillator? If you want an ear ripping edge to the sound, you favor more Square Wave than Sine Wave. The squared off wave is (supposed to be) far less obvious with digital audio recordings, but there is still a perceivable ear fatigue factor. The higher the digital res (Sample Frequency) the less perceivable the squared-off waves are.

I see that you are well aware of the Loudness War phenomenon. Those brickwalled releases are horribly distorted to the point of rendering my ears useless after just minutes of listening. As a joke, my friends and I sometimes take brickwalled, Loudness Wared recordings and reduce the Bit rate to 8 or even 4 bits. You cannot tell a difference between the 8 bit and the original 16 bit because everything is squashed to be as unbelievably f@#$ing loud as possible all of the time. Correction.... Often even louder than possible!!!

I love and use Hi-Res PCM audio all of the time. Whether they be uncompressed WAV files or Lossless flac files. I'm not an idiot!! (and Neither are You!!) I record my vinyl to 192KHz/24bit WAV files then convert them to 192KHz/24bit, or 96KHz/24bit, or sometimes just 44.1KHz/16bit flac files that I can take with me. I'm not gonna whip out my precious vinyl everytime I want to listen. Vinyl DOES wear out. A good turntable and good vinyl care habits are paramount!!!

But even when I am utilizing the flac copies of my vinyl, they sound vastly superior to any "Released on CD" or "Mastered for iTunes" stuff that most non-audiophiles listen too. Whenever I play one of my vinyl copies on flac for a friend, the first thing they do is ask, "The Bass sounds so rich and full and well-defined!!! What kind of Sub-Woofer are you using?" To which I proudly respond, "None! I don't need no stinking Sub-Woofer!" Honestly, my home setup is a pair of custom coned, Re-Capped Tannoy Gold studio monitors or a pair of Tannoy 6.5 nearfields. Heck!! I like classic Hip-Hop (among many other genres) and even the 808 kick drums sound great without the need for a Sub-Woofer.

I DO, listen straight off the vinyl also. THAT is what I call my serious listening.
I am 48 years old. I've had and lost, and rebuilt and lost, my vinyl LP collection several times over the years. From 1995 to 2005 I had no working turntable and invested heavily in CDs and (then fledgling) iTunes and mp3s. I wont pay $1000 for an SACD Player (although that is a nice technology and worthy of audiophiles). DVD-A is nice (and cheaper) but very few titles. But after 10 years of being away from vinyl, the first MoFi album that I bought was Pink Floyd-Meddle (which in 1976 was also the first album I ever bought on my own). I am as familiar with that album as anybody (other than the engineer who mixed it) can be. I put that Half-Speed Mastered MoFi LP on the turntable and played it and tears came to my eyes!! I was instantly transported back to 1976 listening to that album with my older brother on his Marantz system. I swear, I could even smell the incense that he used to burn. It triggered a deep and extremely detailed memory of those days. As I began building a collection of HQ Vinyl, that experience was repeated again and again and again. I'm raising my daughter on Vinyl. She can tell the difference!!!

Mr. Bickle...
I do not want to fight with you!!! I feel we are on the same side of this issue in many ways. We both agree that HiRes Digital is awesome. We both agree that Brickwalled, Loud-As-F@#$ All-The-Time productions suck!! My biggest argument with you, and the reason why I so vociferously challenge your statements are the line, "Vinyl is Crap." Vinyl is NOT crap!!! Well mastered vinyl is the closest thing you can get to being right there in the studio as the mix went down. I have been there in the studio doing the mixing. I know!!

I wish you much enjoyment with your audiophile listening!!! I am glad that you care enough about what you put in your ears to make the effort to find the best recording you can!!!

I enjoy talking about this subject!! I hope to have more discussions about HQ Audio in the future.

Analog = Truth
Digital = Virtual Reality

Life is Analog!!!

"Being in the studio as the mix goes down is the absolute best!! Absent that, the following applies:
Vinyl LPs are like a fine Rembrandt Painting of an event.
CDs are like a BetaMax copy of the Rembrandt painting.
mp3s and AACs (iTunes) are like a Black & White, blurry, 3rd generation Xerox of the Rembrandt."

Besides being in electronics my whole life, I've always been a music and audio aficionado. When I was young I never had the money for good equipment but I got excellent sound from it. I've still got albums from the 70's that sound great. The typical complaint about vinyl is only because people exercised little care when using it or had a totally junk or poorly set up turntable.
I always said the primary factors with audio reproduction are the transducers. Conversion from mechanical to electrically and back again.
Most people unfortunately don't have the ear to really evaluate the difference between live music and reproduction.
I'll also agree that the best of my vinyl are the half speed and direct to disc.
I've only got one audiophile friend where I'm at now but he was truly impressed with the sound of my system and ended up searching his own copy of some of the vinyl for his own collection.

I have 45s from my reckless childhood, and even a few ...

78s.!!!!

but I have a ton of 'm too

While the rest of the components have long since bitten the dust, I stored that old beauty away; it's as pristine as the day I bought it. I got it at the time that a lot of music was going to tape, and I would often play the album and record it on a tape for the car. Then I'd wear out the tape!

Maybe we'll be hocking our vinyl in our nineties to pay for food...who knows how the economy will roll...!

Wish I still had it.

I was always too cheap, but damn, they were amazing!!!

thinking about it. Why did I sell mine all those years ago? It was still in pristine condition too. I took care of it like it was a baby. Man o man
I had a hundred or so 1800 feet tapes of music that I recorded too. I preferred the 1800 ft tapes as they were 1 mil where the 3600 ft were .05 mil and the 1200 were 1.5 mil thick. The 1800 seem to be the best on this machine.
Best I can remember you could get 5 LPs on one tape. That was at the 7.5 speed, again best I remember

It was like a DJ only you didn't have to pay anyone...and if the deck was yours, you were always listening to music YOU liked!!!!

Wonder what one of those would go for, nowadays...if ya could find one!

One is listed that they want about 4 for that sounds like it is in excellent condition.
My wish is that I'd had the speakers I have now then.
The speakers I had with the 6010 were sansui 2000, six speaker 4 way. Can't for the life of me remember what receiver/amp I had though. It was something 2000 too I do remember that

I'm tempted to spend some bucks, wife might not understand though but she'd not complain if I did as she likes good music too. We're both old hippies.

Some serious sound, though! You needed longshoreman credentials to lift the damn things!

Hey, Father's Day is coming up--tell the wife that "Daddy" going to buy his own present this year!

The other strategy is the "Forgiveness is easier to obtain than permission!" one. That has served me well on occasion...!

I learned that if you really wanted to do it, go do it, cause permission was hard to come by. A few times I had to pay the price but for the most part I did just fine

Life is great if one lives it

Some Zeppelin too...

Wouldn't change anything about my old hippie ways even if I could.

It wasn't in good shape when I got it used but some TLC and regular maintenance, I'll keep it going till I can't get or make the parts for it.

I first started off with an Akai, sorry can't remember the model now though. It was a good recorder but the Teac was so much better. Better frequency response, high and low and it was solenoid operated rather than levers like the Akai was. I just liked the Teac better.
I'm tempted to buy another one cause when I looked there seemed to be several used ones to be had yet.

The heads had a coating of oxide, all the grease was solidified, the solenoids were sticky, and the torque and brakes needed adjustment. All the pots were noisy but with all those problems it was worth the effort to strip it down and fix them all. Still sounds great and I even searched out a manual so I can keep it going until I'm in the grave.

Oh, BTW I started out with an Akai also, had a few others in between. The best and worst was a Dokorder. Don't remember the model. Sounded great but it seemed like it was always broke.

I'll post a list if anyone is interested. Some are really rare.

The feel of a record (regardless of sound quality, and I'm not an expert there) is better than the feel of an MP3 (which doesn't feel like anything) or even a CD.

The same thing will progressively happen to books, as well. While fewer books will be printed physically, the ones that do will have to be nicer and "feel" better to purchase. It has to be an artifact as well as containing the media you want.

Bryant

on circuits boards. Smoke is what
So yeah records do have a feel to them that we mere mortals like. For the most part the more we pay for it the bigger we want it to be, whatever 'it' is. back when I was buying albums they were way more expensive that most cds are today, corrected for inflation.

of my huge problems with digital and why I refuse to pay money to download stuff. YA GOT NOTHING. Now, OK, I've got some books on my Kindle. But my real books? Professional stuff that I might want to look at more than once? Classics? All paper. Music? All my MP3s ripped from actual CDs. Movies? DVDs. Pictures? Printed out on my photo printer. Not to mention my slide collection going back three generations and working Kodak Carousel. New York Times? Paper delivered to the end of the driveway. Grad school work product? Paper. Every last word I wrote.

I come from it myself, but I've shifted largely to digital for most things. I essentially treat it as a long term rental. I don't want "stuff" anymore. It consumes too many lives.

The world's largest collection on vinyl records...

According to an audit of his collection done by the Library of Congress.

and there was so much I had forgotten I had. I came away thinking, "Damn! I had great taste in music!" So much that I haven't replaced with CD . . . John Coletrane, Billy Cobham, Jimmy Smith, so many.

I understand the sense of nostalgia but...no. I have 8,700 albums and whatnot on my iPod. Not only is it a preferred format to me, it's much more environmentally neutral than creating more and more plastic that will eventually fill a hole in the ground.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

when you drop your iPod in the Chesapeake Bay?

Sync with library on computer and move on your merry way? It's not like the ipod is their only stored location.

Hey, the digital age has its shortcomings, no doubt about it. But so did the vinyl age. Without the digital revolution, I would never have discovered entire galaxies of new material.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

I used to use chicken necks...

at Alligator Point in the Florida panhandle.

Didn't catch any crabs but did find out why it was named that.


It's funny watching your dad run.

Less funny when he's dragging your dumb ass along behind him.

He was mad too - gator got his chicken necks and we had no crab for dinner. Lost the rope too.

You'll love the name of one: "End of an Ear."

Got my new needle there. They said my cartridge was still good. Nice, quiet turntable, too.

...and when you throw that iPod/iPhone/iPad (or any other brand) into a landfill, it contains much more toxic chemicals than a vinyl record and the turntable combined.

If you start your sentence with "I have 8,700 albums on my iPod" then I immediately know that: A) You can't have 8700 "Albums" on your iPod. Even at the crappy 185Mbps that iTunes is, that would be like 5 Terabytes (TB) and iPods are at max 32 GB; B) You have 8700 "Songs" not albums; C) By bragging that you have 8700 songs on your iPod, that means that you probably listen to 300 of them, so you just like to say that you have a lot of something; D) You don't give a crap about audio quality. You wouldn't know good audio if you heard it.

That is OK!! I understand that HQ audio is not as important to some people as it is to me and my friends. But "Nostalgia" has nothing to do with it.

over the years. Replacing items here and there as I find better. And the record deals? Incredible! Usually people don't ask more than dollar apiece and will go lower if you buy a bunch.
I did splurge and buy a nice portable player so I can take stuff with me sometimes. Nothing like spinning some Clifford Brown and enjoying a good book and a cool beverage in the fresh air.

that was supposed to take the country by storm, around New Year's Eve 2000 or thereabouts.

I've lost more than one MP3 player and had more than one hard drive crash to risk having everything completely digital.

That being said, I prefer the CD. While not the force they were 10 years ago, they are still plentiful. Sound quality is top notch, better than most MP3s for me.

Vinyl exists as a cool collectors item, but that's pretty much it.

Now, what I really want to make sure never goes away are paperbound books. Thankfully, I don't think those ever will.

When my sister bought her house there were some things the previous owner left behind. One of those was a '70s vintage console stereo, big old wood cabinet. She and her hubby own a very nice state-of-the-art system, complete with turntable; but to hear those albums the way we first heard them, it's the console every time.

I have an old bookshelf system, the only thing that still works is the turntable. Some days I just need that sound, including the scritch scritch scritch that signals the end of Side 1.

are definitely part of the vinyl experience. Hell, it ain't ELP without the pop at the beginning of Karn Evil 9.

was pretty much included with every song.

along with 300+ CDs and who knows how many hundreds of songs on my iPhone and laptop. In many cases I still prefer the sound of the LP, but I do own a nice table with a $200.00 phono cartridge and don't play LPs that are scratched or dirty. Been taking excellent care of my records for over 45 years. Oh, and some of these newer 180 gram remastered LPs are really, really good if you have a well tuned (and often expensive) analogue rig. The problem with most used vinyl today is that 95% of the population never took proper care of the albums and played them on cheap, poorly maintained and set-up turntables. The vast majority of my LPs have absolutely no pops or scratches, and some of them were purchased in the late 1960s.

As for MP3s, I only listen to that crap when I'm working in the yard or going for a walk and don't require the ultimate sound reproduction. Its also good for background music when doing paper work or cleaning house.

If it was originally mastered for vinyl (mostly pre 1984, but some more recent stuff) then it ALWAYS sounds better on vinyl. There is a lot of vinyl going around that sounds like it is the same old "Smashed" CD master just put to vinyl for marketing sake. Some artists take the time to have separate masters for CD, iTunes, and Vinyl.

And "Mastered for iTunes"???? OMG!!!! What complete crap!!! Mastered to come through a little, tiny earbuds at the maximum volume that this universe can allow. I thought that Apple was talking about HQ music being available on iTunes? It was supposed to be ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio CODEC). I guess they decided to redesign the f@#$ing earbuds instead. :/

I don't buy often but for the last couple years I have only bought vinyl. That includes new music and old - and most of the new vinyl comes with a download key for a high quality digital copy. I like the convenience of digital and the beauty and feel and sound of vinyl.

Still waiting to set up a turntable and whatnot but I plan to have a kickin A/V system that will include both turntable and computer.

One way or another, it has to wind up as analog to come through any kind of speakers. PERIOD!!!

We were sold a bill of goods by Sony in 1980. All digital audio formats have been chasing the sound quality of analog ever since. That is NOT a Luddite attitude!! Just the opposite!! It is a quest for the best audio, regardless of whether it s digital or analog. Even in the studio, where: A) Many High-End Productions are STILL recorded partially on 2" Multitrack Analog tape; and B) The biggest selling Plug-Ins for DAWs are Analog device simulations.

http://www.uaudio.com/store/compressors-limiters/1176-collection.html

Good analog is always superior to digital audio!!

Your voice is analog. The diaphragm of a microphone is analog. Speakers are analog. The goal is to capture that analog goodness at a high enough digital sample and bit rate that it preserves as much of that analog goodness as possible and reproduce it as faithfully as possible. All things digital are just virtual reality. They are just good enough to fool our senses most of the time. Virtual Reality is NOT the same as Reality!! Virtual audio is NOT the same as REAL (Analog) audio!!!

LIFE IS ANALOG!!!