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MADem

(135,425 posts)
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:34 AM Jun 2014

Snowden (who really does, apparently, have epilepsy) helps an epileptic.

Suddenly, during the attempt to explain German, I faint. I wake up, my head lies bedded on a sand bag, my body is in the recovery position. A calm voice is coming from the screen. “The first fits are always the worst,” Snowden says. I am lucky: Snowden is not only a patriot or traitor, he is also an epileptic. He instantly recognised what was happening to me. He tells me that he was only diagnosed when he was 23 years old. When he fled the US a little more than a year ago, he told his employer that he had to go away for a few weeks for treatment for his epilepsy. Then Snowden apologises for making me look at the flickering screen, it had triggered the fit, he says.


http://www.tagesspiegel.de/weltspiegel/in-english/edward-snowden-and-his-team-nsa-national-supermarket-association-/10013120-3.html

First I've seen this actually CONFIRMED.
224 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Snowden (who really does, apparently, have epilepsy) helps an epileptic. (Original Post) MADem Jun 2014 OP
Quite a personality change, wasn't it? randome Jun 2014 #1
Yep-I HAVE heard of that happening. Same thing happens with strokes, too. MADem Jun 2014 #2
This is a new low for DU Aerows Jun 2014 #9
I guess the take-away here is that no one that has epilepsy and has had a seizure can be trusted... MADem Jun 2014 #16
I refuse to discuss this with you further Aerows Jun 2014 #17
Of COURSE you do--because you can't back up the crap you threw at me. MADem Jun 2014 #21
Wow ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #44
I don't get it either. MADem Jun 2014 #56
it is strange, i'm trying to figure out what the problem was or if i missed some other threads JI7 Jun 2014 #58
Maybe this thread needs a nipple or two or three to really get it going! randome Jun 2014 #60
Or a NSFT warning label--because, ya know, discussion of well-known MADem Jun 2014 #62
If this discussion were concerning Joe or Jane Average ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #66
I think you are quite right. nt MADem Jun 2014 #68
I'm discussing Joe or Jane Average RainDog Jun 2014 #77
Hyper religiosity and sexuality are pretty major changes, so your very post belies your thesis. MADem Jun 2014 #94
does Snowden have temporal lobe epilepsy? RainDog Jun 2014 #120
I have a young relative who endures seizures. MADem Jun 2014 #128
Wouldn't some of the multiple brain surgeries that some epileptics have also be a factor? VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #127
Any time you poke, prod, investigate, bump or insult the brain, there's potential MADem Jun 2014 #129
right....that's what I thought too... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #133
YES! I actually had a "in law" (cousin's bride) who had to go through with that. MADem Jun 2014 #135
Point taken. eom. 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #107
Anything that touches St. Eddie treestar Jun 2014 #93
IAWS elias49 Jun 2014 #100
+1...nt SidDithers Jun 2014 #168
No, YOUR attempt to tar others as saying something they did not is a "new low". Epilepsy MAY KittyWampus Jun 2014 #30
Really? Have you ever known anyone who suffers from epilepsy? I have, the worst kind, and she sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #35
So your experience with a single individual ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #46
What IS the 'body of knowledge' on the subject, and how does it have any effect on the disclosures sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #48
Correct me if I'm wrong; but ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #65
The thread is about a Whistle Blower. I see nothing in the OP that discusses the condition sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #79
Then, you clearly did not read the post you responded to ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #84
Perhaps you should read more closely. I have asked repeatedly what this has to do with what sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #85
But your repeated asking is a non sequitor to ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #86
What does it have to do with the evidence of massive crimes committed against the American sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #96
Exactly!!! 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #106
This thread is not about what Snowden disclosed. Try to follow along. MADem Jun 2014 #109
+1. Jumped in. Feet first. Attempted to hijack. Not a clue. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2014 #88
Same old shit...different day. zappaman Jun 2014 #122
Post removed Post removed Jun 2014 #170
I didn't see that implicated until you made it... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #136
I just posted a link to an EPILEPSY WEBSITE. KittyWampus Jun 2014 #123
No one said that treestar Jun 2014 #91
omg, this again?? grasswire Jun 2014 #3
There is abundant evidence that epilepsy can lead to behavioral disorders. randome Jun 2014 #4
I know someone who underwent electroshock treatment, for the usual reasons, MADem Jun 2014 #6
I find it odd that anyone cares about Snowden's health issues unless they contradict the evidence he sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #49
I find it odd that you are so frantically trying to disrupt a thread about epilepsy. MADem Jun 2014 #67
The thread is about Snowden, is it not? If you want to post a thread about epilepsy sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #75
This thread is about Snowden's EPILEPSY and the fact that he helped a woman with EPILEPSY MADem Jun 2014 #113
I honestly cannot believe Aerows Jun 2014 #12
Hello? Focus, please. randome Jun 2014 #19
As I said to MADem Aerows Jun 2014 #22
'Ugly' to you, perhaps, but relevant to explaining why Snowden's personality changed. randome Jun 2014 #23
How does one get from 'I'm a Christian so I think marriage is for one man and one woman because Bluenorthwest Jun 2014 #37
to say nothing of the possibility of "radicalization" grasswire Jun 2014 #41
All those people interacted with other people. randome Jun 2014 #59
oh noes grasswire Jun 2014 #69
Not at all. Just saying he was probably never radicalized by anyone. randome Jun 2014 #83
Hey!!! nt msanthrope Jun 2014 #189
Really. One's enough. randome Jun 2014 #191
This place couldn't handle more than one of me. nt msanthrope Jun 2014 #194
That's an interesting point. A few work colleagues have commented about him, but in MADem Jun 2014 #74
"They saw truth, and they changed" doesn't require a community. deurbano Jun 2014 #161
agreed. grasswire Jun 2014 #166
We all have paradigm shifts Aerows Jun 2014 #180
Obama has been quoted as being for equality before he was against it. MADem Jun 2014 #52
Obama was playing politics, that was clear from the onset. randome Jun 2014 #53
The only thing "gleeful" here is your gleeful attempt to play gotcha. MADem Jun 2014 #76
Explain what relevance this has to the information of massive crimes against the American people sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #51
None. randome Jun 2014 #54
Good, glad that has been cleared up, thanks for YOUR time. sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #81
Explain what relevance that has to do with the OP? MADem Jun 2014 #63
So this IS an attempt to smear Snowden. And there is NO evidence that the comments from the right sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #36
You disagree that epilepsy can change one's behavior? randome Jun 2014 #57
You think that this changes the evidence presented by Snowden about the violations of sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #72
Might have had an impact on where he went to express his concerns. nt MADem Jun 2014 #145
His decision was an excellent one. Which only proves how rational he is. sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #164
Coulda fooled me. He didn't sound all that thrilled talking to Brian Williams. MADem Jun 2014 #179
What "right wing website?" Ars Technica is a computer expert's website. MADem Jun 2014 #70
Taggespiegel is a classical liberal/libertarian publication grasswire Jun 2014 #114
The article is very favorable to Snowden. I'm not understanding the complaints about it. MADem Jun 2014 #119
Jury results Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2014 #183
Who said anything about mental illness? Answer--YOU DID. And ONLY YOU. MADem Jun 2014 #5
Um no Aerows Jun 2014 #11
No I did not. You have serious reading comprehension issues. MADem Jun 2014 #13
Aerows read the thread and the little gleeful conversation Aerows Jun 2014 #15
You read a little generic speculation based on a news report, and turned it, in YOUR head, MADem Jun 2014 #20
So what is your point in posting the information, frankly I don't care what illness a whistle blower sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #38
If you DON'T CARE, why are you here telling me how much you don't care? MADem Jun 2014 #42
You misunderstand, I don't care what illness a Whistle Blower may suffer from in relation to sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #47
So, if we "mention" that Snowden broke both his legs in Army boot camp, are we "smearing" him, too? MADem Jun 2014 #61
If a person has epilepsy Aerows Jun 2014 #10
THANK YOU grasswire Jun 2014 #14
I feel sick as well... and very angry ... nenagh Jun 2014 #33
thank you grasswire Jun 2014 #34
I just didn't think to read anything like this on DU... nenagh Jun 2014 #50
I'm sorry you had to read it here, too Aerows Jun 2014 #55
Gee, I'm just too riled up at the moment to actually read the rest of the thread.. nenagh Jun 2014 #64
I have some HUGE tomatoes growing Aerows Jun 2014 #71
That's hilarious...cucumbers hiding under the leaves. nenagh Jun 2014 #82
I love English Lavender Aerows Jun 2014 #87
What's "wrong" with electroshock therapy? Why are you prejudiced against MADem Jun 2014 #73
Have you ever planted celery? Good stuff elias49 Jun 2014 #89
I am a pharmacist who worked for many years in a psychiatric hospital nenagh Jun 2014 #118
You are making false accusations, and you have the NERVE to talk about how MADem Jun 2014 #121
MADem, at least read the comment correctly before you blast me... nenagh Jun 2014 #126
YOU were the one who rather eagerly dragged "fear" into the room, not me. MADem Jun 2014 #134
Why are you going so aggressively Aerows Jun 2014 #138
"I am a doctor and I say Snowden's brain took a hit" WorseBeforeBetter Jun 2014 #149
Perhaps the person to whom you are responding shouldn't MADem Jun 2014 #157
Just ugly Aerows Jun 2014 #172
Why are you getting so piqued about it? MADem Jun 2014 #154
On the contrary Aerows Jun 2014 #173
Yes--it's very interesting to learn who attaches feelings of shame or demands silence MADem Jun 2014 #181
Me too, truly despicable. I'm sorry you had to see this here on DU! sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #39
Propaganda 101 Octafish Jun 2014 #24
It's really sad Aerows Jun 2014 #25
Yup. Octafish Jun 2014 #28
Anyone and anything will be used woo me with science Jun 2014 #32
Definitely one of the more disgusting things I've seen on DU. nt laundry_queen Jun 2014 #95
I know Aerows Jun 2014 #99
+1 The lowest sort of propaganda, woo me with science Jun 2014 #26
Secret agents. Secret agendas. Secret government. Secret beneficiaries. Octafish Jun 2014 #29
Thanks for kicking the thread with a nasty and nefarious assertion. MADem Jun 2014 #80
Nasty? Oh dear. Better log off NSFW!! elias49 Jun 2014 #90
Go pick on someone else. nt MADem Jun 2014 #110
Yes and I also read the post I replied to. Octafish Jun 2014 #116
The person doing Snowden the favor WAS, in fact, doing Snowden a favor. MADem Jun 2014 #177
Thanks for the details. I remember the propaganda part goes back to when Snowden was new. Octafish Jun 2014 #187
If you dig down into other posts in this thread, you will see where I am going with this. MADem Jun 2014 #198
thanks for the links, Octafish grasswire Jun 2014 #221
No, that's not where "they" went, but thanks for potstirring! nt MADem Jun 2014 #43
There you go, with that phony "claimed" assertion again. MADem Jun 2014 #78
No--that's where YOU and YOU ALONE went. Shame on YOU. MADem Jun 2014 #197
Again, YOU are the one equating epilepsy to mental illness. As if mental illness is so horrifying. KittyWampus Jun 2014 #31
Can you explain what Snowden's health has to do with what Gore called 'worse law breaking than sabrina 1 Jun 2014 #40
Thank you--this "sky is falling, oh the humanity" game is getting old. MADem Jun 2014 #45
Not 'salient' at all. elias49 Jun 2014 #92
Nonsense. It "diverts" from your prosecution of a theme, perhaps. MADem Jun 2014 #97
Nope. Sorry. Large FAIL on your part. elias49 Jun 2014 #98
Why are you asking me if you should start a thread that blatantly tells a falsehood MADem Jun 2014 #108
Yes, you should. NanceGreggs Jun 2014 #184
Gotta say Bobbie Jo Jun 2014 #140
Cue a Big Picture Theme Song!! MADem Jun 2014 #142
I see no mention of mental illness in the OP. Jamastiene Jun 2014 #111
context: a thread from May27 grasswire Jun 2014 #130
Context is truly everything Aerows Jun 2014 #131
It's my ignore list, lol. morningfog Jun 2014 #159
It isn't that mental illness is shameful, no not at all. grasswire Jun 2014 #153
And yet...I never used the term "mental illness" but "neurological disorder". msanthrope Jun 2014 #192
Precisely. MADem Jun 2014 #199
It must totally suck being in Russia, and unable to drink. msanthrope Jun 2014 #7
How horrifying! nt MADem Jun 2014 #8
A fate worse than death I tell ya! VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #137
At least you had the decency Aerows Jun 2014 #18
Did you ever find out how you got there? greatauntoftriplets Jun 2014 #27
Yeah...and but for being sick at the end, it was a blast. nt msanthrope Jun 2014 #188
LOL. If it was me, I'd certainly want to know. greatauntoftriplets Jun 2014 #193
Ouch...1,000+ 'views', 4 recs! elias49 Jun 2014 #101
Are you OK? MADem Jun 2014 #103
Post removed Post removed Jun 2014 #104
Egods.. what is this? Grade school? Cha Jun 2014 #124
I don't see what everyone is outraged about ... GeorgeGist Jun 2014 #102
I'm not supposed to mention that Snowden has epilepsy, or, apparently that he helped a woman with it MADem Jun 2014 #105
Uhm, in regards to the subthread above, Jamastiene Jun 2014 #112
I don't understand it either, and I don't think there's anything "wrong" MADem Jun 2014 #115
All of the conditions you mentioned just now are treatable. Jamastiene Jun 2014 #125
Jeez--hemispherectomy...the first time I heard about that I said WTF? MADem Jun 2014 #141
proverbial turds in the punchbowl is all.... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #139
Interesting read ... NanceGreggs Jun 2014 #117
Obama is a class act... WorseBeforeBetter Jun 2014 #132
So because people support the person THEY VOTED FOR....that somehow means they are classless? VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #143
Take a few breaths and read it again, VR. WorseBeforeBetter Jun 2014 #147
I am not the "breathless" one here.... VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #150
Post removed Post removed Jun 2014 #155
I can't either Aerows Jun 2014 #146
I agree. But it's the same small crew over and over and over... WorseBeforeBetter Jun 2014 #148
NO....I think you have the "same small crew" on the wrong foot here! VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #152
Of COURSE you can't!!! VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #151
Use a few more exclamation points. WorseBeforeBetter Jun 2014 #156
HERE now you have both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #162
see my subthread where I posted part of a thread from May 27 grasswire Jun 2014 #165
It dehumanizes him Aerows Jun 2014 #176
Go back and read the entire thread ... NanceGreggs Jun 2014 #182
Stellar summation!!! nt MADem Jun 2014 #200
The fact that you would think NanceGreggs Jun 2014 #175
and ^^^ THIS!!!! VanillaRhapsody Jun 2014 #144
I've always believed that by their words we'll know them. MADem Jun 2014 #167
Attack the messenger by any means JEB Jun 2014 #158
Is your hand broken? MADem Jun 2014 #160
Sport, eh? JEB Jun 2014 #163
Considerably more polite than the deliberate and crude personal insult you lobbed. MADem Jun 2014 #169
Post removed Post removed Jun 2014 #171
hard to believe your post below was hidden... grasswire Jun 2014 #185
What an amazing thread... SidDithers Jun 2014 #174
I'm stunned at some of the less-than-progressive attitudes. MADem Jun 2014 #178
I hope that DUers Aerows Jun 2014 #186
I do,too because if they do, they will see EXACTLY what you are doing. MADem Jun 2014 #196
My little brother had epilespy as a toddler Harmony Blue Jun 2014 #190
There are people on this website who are trying to twist this entire thread into something MADem Jun 2014 #195
your fairly creepy deep obsession with Snowden aside... grasswire Jun 2014 #201
Look. Who's. Talking!!! MADem Jun 2014 #202
my flag grasswire Jun 2014 #203
You aren't flying that one here. MADem Jun 2014 #206
Bullshit. grasswire Jun 2014 #214
Getting a little irritated, are you? MADem Jun 2014 #218
"make a bad situation worse" grasswire Jun 2014 #219
Stop trying to pretend you're a "victim" now. MADem Jun 2014 #222
I don't see how Snowden's medical condition is salient Harmony Blue Jun 2014 #215
That's nice. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. nt MADem Jun 2014 #216
My youngest son, 27, is an epileptic nilesobek Jun 2014 #204
I beg your pardon? Your post is full of misstatements, to put it kindly. MADem Jun 2014 #205
Let me know if you feel the same way nilesobek Jun 2014 #207
You might want to contact Dr. Gupta's office, and find out more about that cannabis oil. MADem Jun 2014 #209
Well MADem, nilesobek Jun 2014 #210
PLEASE look at the documentary I provided. PLEASE. MADem Jun 2014 #211
And I had promised to stay away from Snowden threads, nilesobek Jun 2014 #212
I hope your son finds a solution in it. MADem Jun 2014 #213
Cannabis is a prescription medication for certain brain issues RainDog Jun 2014 #220
+1 nt MADem Jun 2014 #223
As the parent of an epileptic adult child.. grasswire Jun 2014 #217
Thank you for your kindness and understanding. nilesobek Jun 2014 #224
this is not true about the 30 year life span, there are exceptions JI7 Jun 2014 #208
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
1. Quite a personality change, wasn't it?
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:08 AM
Jun 2014

From "Leakers should be shot in the balls" to "I'm a patriot."

And early on, you said his adult-onset may have had something to do with it.

I wonder how Oliver Stone will script this? Maybe he'll have Dario Argento do that part, subtitled, "A History Of Lesions".
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]

MADem

(135,425 posts)
2. Yep-I HAVE heard of that happening. Same thing happens with strokes, too.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:25 AM
Jun 2014

I know two people who have suffered strokes (well, more than 2, but 2 that I know well). One was a real insufferable blowhard, kind of pompous, always too busy to care, very unsentimental, ignored his family, that kind of thing...since the stroke he has become a very sweet and gentle soul. He recovered sufficiently to go back to work, but he doesn't work those 14 hour days anymore. His priorities have realigned completely and he is much more family/friends-focused.

The other friend was a bit of a milquetoast who would put up with more shit than perhaps he should have. Those days are gone! His stroke makes him more likely to raise the bullshit flag, to tell people off, to say what he means, and to be less diplomatic.

Definite personality shifts in both cases--the brain is an interesting thing!

Oliver Stone...he never takes the ordinary path; it'll probably be something a bit convoluted and 'outré!'

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
9. This is a new low for DU
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 01:48 PM
Jun 2014

I cannot believe that people here on DU are using a medical condition against a person in this way. That's plain sick.

I guess the take-away here is that no one that has epilepsy and has had a seizure can be trusted, right?

Because that is EXACTLY what you are saying. And that is just plain low down and dirty. I hope no one in your family suffers from epilepsy or a seizure because then you can just disregard everything they say and do, too.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
16. I guess the take-away here is that no one that has epilepsy and has had a seizure can be trusted...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:01 PM
Jun 2014

That's YOUR take away, and if you come to that conclusion, that's YOUR problem.

I find it amazing how some people can take speculation based on news reports, and turn it into a "claim."

That's a sign of a weak argument, FWIW.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
17. I refuse to discuss this with you further
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:05 PM
Jun 2014

Because I can't even believe you can defend that little conversation you and randome had with a straight face.

It's plain shameful.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
21. Of COURSE you do--because you can't back up the crap you threw at me.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:09 PM
Jun 2014

You tried to play a game of gotcha and it didn't work. You tried to unfairly smear me by saying I said something I didn't say.

See how that works? Answer--not too well. You shouldn't do it.

It's "plain shameful."

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
44. Wow ...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:01 PM
Jun 2014

It is well documented that "brain disorders", e.g., strokes, seizures, etc., can affect personality. You and Randome discussed your experience with just that. And that is offensive to someone?

Wow.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
56. I don't get it either.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:26 PM
Jun 2014

We all have brains, and they sometimes have issues.

To pretend otherwise is like ignoring an elephant in the room.

It's the rare person who has never met anyone who has dealt with a brain issue. There's nothing "wrong" with them, but the outrage from some corners makes me think that some folks do indeed harbor prejudices in this regard. It's curious!

JI7

(89,174 posts)
58. it is strange, i'm trying to figure out what the problem was or if i missed some other threads
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:30 PM
Jun 2014
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
60. Maybe this thread needs a nipple or two or three to really get it going!
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:33 PM
Jun 2014

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

MADem

(135,425 posts)
62. Or a NSFT warning label--because, ya know, discussion of well-known
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:36 PM
Jun 2014

medical issues is verboten!!!

NSFT--Not Safe For Thinkers.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
66. If this discussion were concerning Joe or Jane Average ...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:59 PM
Jun 2014

I doubt that we would be seeing such outrage; but because it touches on ... you know ... well, mystery solved.

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
77. I'm discussing Joe or Jane Average
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:44 PM
Jun 2014

And I take issue with the statement that epilepsy causes behavioral changes like those attributed to strokes or major brain injuries from accidents.

If you look at epilepsy advocacy sites online, the behavioral changes they talk about, in general, have to do with withdrawal, depression, anxiety - i.e. typical responses for anyone with an illness or disorder that is stigmatized by society.

There are distinct types of epilepsy, however, and someone with temporal lobe epilepsy will not have the same experience, other than a seizure, as someone with petit mal seizures, for example. Someone with complex partial seizures may not even appear to have a seizure as we understand them, other than "spacing out" for a time.

Grand mal seizures are the ones commonly associated with epilepsy, however. Those are the ones with thrashing, etc., not just a loss of consciousness.

So, just to say, epilepsy does not indicate behavior change like you are talking about here. Temporal lobe epilepsy may sometimes be accompanied by hyper religiosity, sexuality, etc. - the same sort of issues someone who has untreated manic/depressive illness (i.e. bipolar disorder) - but, with medication these are not considered part of the behavior of someone with either bipolar disorder or temporal lobe epilepsy.

Before my son was dx'd as autistic, the doctor thought he might have temporal lobe or the complex-partial seizure form of epilepsy. Mom that I am, I read up on everything I could find about the subject and participated in an online community to find out information.

I don't think it does anyone with epilepsy any good to misrepresent their circumstances.

If someone fell and had a brain injury b/c of epilepsy, that would not be considered a feature of epilepsy itself. That would be considered a feature of a traumatic brain injury.

I'm not saying this as pro or con Snowden. I'm saying this as the mother of someone who has a son with a disorder that's often stigmatized and misrepresented in media, etc.

If you know of studies that indicate epilepsy itself causes actions that those associated with traumatic brain injury, maybe you can post them here - because the advocacy sites talk about emotional issues related to stigmatism, not acting out - beyond the situation I mentioned, above, with c-p seizures.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
94. Hyper religiosity and sexuality are pretty major changes, so your very post belies your thesis.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:32 PM
Jun 2014

And I've done a little reading on this topic, and sorry--major personality changes ARE possible, and they aren't all focused on depression and anxiety, either. A "hyper-moral" or "ethical" or "religious/spiritual" component is an oft-repeated theme. That's not necessarily a bad thing, of course, but someone who is a party animal can suddenly become serious and overly concerned with ethics, or religion, or morality, or things of that nature.

I've posted a few links in this thread, but here are more (abstracts, a bit of a slog) :

http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/10496229


A deepening of emotionality with a serious, highly ethical, and spiritual demeanor has been described by clinicians as a positive personality change among patients with chronic mesial temporal lobe epilepsy. Some of these patients tend to be particularly orderly and detailed in their speech and actions (viscosity) and often experience a relative decrease in sexual interest and arousal. These personality changes, distinct from personality changes noted in any other individuals, are subtle in the majority of patients with chronic epilepsy. Patients with the described personality changes may also develop intermittent symptoms of an interictal dysphoric disorder, with episodes of irritable moods that contrast with a predominantly good-natured attitude and for which the patients will be remorseful. The Bear-Fedio Inventory needs to be further modified before it can serve as an adequate instrument for assessing the prevailing personality changes and the intermittent dysphoric symptoms.


http://journals.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=1034926


This study used the Bear-Fedio Personality Inventory (BFI) to compare 41 individuals with temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE) and 37 with psychogenic non-epileptic seizures (NES). Both groups exhibited similar elevations on the BFI, although TLE individuals show greater endorsement of at least one hypergraphia symptom, as compared with those with NES. The correlates of the BFI with demographic and seizure characteristics differed between the groups. These results argue against a specific TLE personality syndrome and suggest that personality characteristics may be related to the experience of having repeated seizures, rather than the specific underlying pathophysiology of temporal lobe epilepsy.

....The concept of a distinct interictal behavioral syndrome in TLE was initially described by Gastaut9 and named by Geschwind and Waxman.10 Characteristic traits included changes in sexual behavior and aggression, increased philosophic and religious concerns, viscosity, and compulsive writing (often referred to as the “Gastaut-Geschwind” syndrome).

In response to lack of evidence for this syndrome with traditional measures of personality and psychopathology (e.g., MMPI, Rorschach), Bear and Fedio developed a scale (Bear-Fedio Inventory [BFI]) measuring 18 proposed TLE behavioral traits and administered the scale to individuals with TLE, healthy control subjects, and individuals with neuromuscular disorders.11 They found that TLE patients endorsed more traits than both healthy-controls and the medical-contrasting group. The traits that were most discriminating included deepened emotions, circumstantiality, altered religious and sexual concerns, and hypergraphia. After Bear and Fedio's publication, a number of studies investigated the BFI instrument and the hypothesis that these personality and behavioral traits were specific to TLE. By and large, studies support the notion that individuals with TLE exhibit increased behavioral traits on the BFI as compared with healthy-controls and other medical groups. There is also recent work showing that individuals with TLE and bilateral hippocampal atrophy endorse more behavioral traits than those with epilepsy and no-atrophy.12 Similarly, Trimble and Freeman found that individuals with epilepsy and increased religiosity endorsed hypergraphia, greater emotionality, and increased philosophical ideas than individuals with TLE with no religiosity.13 There remains significant controversy about whether the syndrome is distinctive to TLE, given mixed findings when comparing individuals with TLE and patients with psychiatric illness or individuals with generalized epilepsy. Several authors suggest that the BFI measures general psychopathology, rather than a specific TLE syndrome.14,15 Shetty and Trimble carefully reviewed findings from past studies and concluded that most studies support the original Bear and Fedio results that the BFI can differentiate between TLE and other healthy, neurologic, or psychiatric groups. They argued that evidence supports a distinct TLE behavioral syndrome.16 They also suggest that the most consistent traits seem to match up with the original Geschwind syndrome (i.e., religiosity, hypergraphia, hypermoralism), suggesting that further refinement of the scale might be useful. Although only a minority of patients develop these syndromes, at least a subset of individuals with TLE exhibit the characteristic interictal personality traits. Whether these traits are truly specific to TLE remains an open question. The current study examines differences between patients with TLE and NES on the BFI. To-date, no studies have been published describing the BFI in individuals with NES. Understanding interictal personality traits in NES may help differentiate patients with TLE and NES in clinical evaluation. It is also of theoretical interest because both patient groups experience seizure behavior, but only the TLE group has pathologic electrical activity in limbic structures. Given previous BFI study results, we hypothesized that patients with TLE would endorse more symptoms on the BFI than those with NES....


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2012.03602.x/full

Different from frontal lobe epilepsy, which has not yet been evaluated in greater detail, the question of a characteristic organic personality change (“Wesensänderung”) in temporal lobe epilepsy is a continuing matter of discussion (Blumer, 1999; Devinsky & Najjar, 1999; Hoppe et al., 2010). On a phenomenologic level, it is difficult to differentiate the so-called “temporal lobe personality” with deepened emotionality, circumstantial thought, philosophical and religious concerns, hypergraphia, and alterations in sexuality (Waxman & Geschwind, 1975) from anxiety, depression, the so-called interictal dysphoric mood disorder, or memory, word finding and naming problems, which are frequent comorbidities in temporal lobe epilepsy (Gilliam et al., 2004; Kobau et al., 2006). Whereas anxiety and depression refer to Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) diagnoses, the interictal dysphoric mood disorder, in the tradition of Kraepelin, is characterized by an intermittent and pleomorphic symptomatology (e.g., irritability, depressive moods and anxiety, headaches, insomnia, and euphoric states) accompanied also by more positive behavioral features (quiet, modest, devoted, amicable, helpful, industrious, thrifty, honest, and deeply religious). The clinical picture of the interictal dysphoric mood disorder thus ranges somewhere between clinically manifest depression and organic personality change (Blumer et al., 2004). Apart from this, clinically manifest personality disorders can well be observed in symptomatic focal epilepsies (Lopez-Rodriguez et al., 1999; Hermann et al., 2000; Swinkels et al., 2003). The reported rates range from 4–38% (Swinkels et al., 2005). In regard to depression in TLE, it should be noted that the relation between a mesolimbic pathology and depression may be at hand, but that most studies on this issue lack a control group of patients with other focal epilepsies (e.g., FLE). A major reason for the missing clinical control group may simply be that temporal lobe epilepsies make up the majority of the chronic symptomatic focal epilepsies (approximately 80%) in comparison to FLE (approximately 15%), or posterior epilepsies (approximately 5%). Therefore, without a control group of other located epilepsies, specificity of depression and mood problems in temporal lobe epilepsy cannot be taken as guaranteed.

As a concept, “personality” is by definition more trait dependent than state dependent, and particularly in epilepsy it is difficult to determine whether a given behavior has really trait characteristics or not. In epilepsy several factors can be discerned that can lead to dynamic and principally reversible changes in the patients’ behavior and mood states.

Analogous to the multifactorial etiologic model of cognitive dysfunction in epilepsy (Kwan & Brodie, 2001; Elger et al., 2004), changes in personality and mood may be due to epilepsy-related factors such as underlying brain lesions, seizures, and interictal epileptic dysfunction. In addition, psychotropic side effects of antiepileptic drugs (Hessen et al., 2007; Helmstaedter et al., 2008) and reactive factors must be taken into consideration (Tarsitani & Bertolote, 2006). Therefore, for the closer understanding of behavioral abnormalities in epilepsy, the consideration of both, more dynamic and more static factors appears essential. Periictal and interictal epileptic activity can induce cognitive and behavioral problems, and the effects may not be limited to the affected lobe given that propagation of epileptic activity may also disturb neuronal networks beyond the primary lesion or epileptogenic zone (Shulman, 2000). The direct 1:1 influence of interictal activity on behavior in focal symptomatic epilepsy is difficult to demonstrate. Positive behavioral change after successful temporal lobe surgery, however, provides some indirect evidence that seizures and epileptic dysfunction do negatively affect behavior (Lendt et al., 2000; Reuber et al., 2004; Witt et al., 2008).

As for the pathologies, which underlie temporal of frontal lobe epilepsies, these can be more or less systemic and have different onsets within the life span, and thus have different effects on brain maturation and the development of cognitive functions and personality. Lesions can be more stationary like posttraumatic lesions, migration disorders, or developmental tumors or they are dynamic and potentially progressive like in the case of limbic encephalitis, mitochondrial encephalopathies, or tumors. In addition, one must not forget influences of often longstanding antiepileptic medication on patients’ behavior. Antiepileptic drugs may have positive and desirable or negative and adverse psychotropic side effects, and the effects may be reversible, as in most cases, or irreversible (Ketter et al., 1999; Ettinger & Argoff, 2007).


Snowden's epilepsy, we learned from the link at the OP, is adult-onset, and apparently his mother suffers with it as well.

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
120. does Snowden have temporal lobe epilepsy?
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:11 PM
Jun 2014

Because everything you mention is about TLE, afai can read, not other types, which do not have the same affect or effect.

TLE is very difficult to manage sometimes, but not in the way Snowden has acted, from what I know from a woman I met who was considering brain surgery to remove part of her brain that was connected with the seizures. hyper religiosity or sexuality can be no different than someone who is not epileptic, tho... iow, it's not just a medical condition.

I initially thought it possible that my son was having seizures - and he may have had them b/c autism is sometimes accompanied by seizures, I later found out. But he hasn't had them since he was 4 and we never put him on meds for epilepsy b/c we wanted a second opinion, etc. He's never been on any meds, except for ear infections.. which, I found out later, can mess with gastro-intestines.. and people with autism already often have different micro-gut environments.

I had a seizure when I was 18 or so, had to have a brain scan, etc... and the dx was inconclusive. The doc told my dad I might've had an allergic reaction to birth control pills... which really pissed me off, because then my dad knew I was taking bcps... and the doc threw a prescription for dilantin at me. I took it for a few days, the muscles under the skin in my forearms started twitching and I threw away the script.

Never had another seizure.

So, I also think that "epilepsy" may be a generally catch-all phrase when there are no other explanations for a seizure, too. With me, I lost consciousness... could feel it coming on, the room started to look like color tv static (no one knows what that looks like anymore, right), then lost consciousness, lost control of my bladder, I brought my arms up to my chest and held my fists in balls... I was having dinner at a friend's house with two other friends. Didn't draw up my arms, they said, until they spoke to me b/c I guess they saw I zoned out or something. Never knew the cause of it. Maybe it was spaghetti...

All to say - I still don't think epilepsy is an indictor of Snowden's actions when you consider how easy it is to become "radicalized" when someone sees something that is outrageous to them. I became "radicalized" when I saw what happened with the Bush/Gore mess because it all made me so angry.

So, I'm just saying I am not prone to ascribe to an illness or disorder what can be explained by the normal actions of people in abnormal circumstances.

My son was really concerned when that Elliot guy did his thing b/c people were saying Rodgers was autistic. I read the guy's manifesto and I told my son... you've never been like that. He doesn't seem autistic to me - he seems like a narcissist. But ascribing Elliot's actions to autism, initially, really bothered me - or any action, really - to ascribe it to a mental illness or disorder does a disservice to people, the majority of whom never act out in ways that we read about when someone harms others.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
128. I have a young relative who endures seizures.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:01 PM
Jun 2014

It is a byproduct of CP, and he is also "on the spectrum." I am not unfamiliar with the associated issues, though I am not dealing with them every day, his parents are.

Since this is the first "Horse's Mouth" evidence I've seen of Snowden's epilepsy at all, I couldn't begin to "Frist" and tell you what kind he has. However, he did go from an amoral asshole who snarked about prostitutes, delivered cultural insults about the Swiss people, and was, in general, stone-cold in terms of attitude, wanting to shoot leakers in the balls, to someone who has adopted a very emotional and moralistic tone about what he feels the NSA should be doing--it's not quite religious fervor, but it's close. Thus, speculation -- and that's all it can be -- isn't something that's light years from far left field.


The woman who had the seizure is the one writing the article--her's is a first person account. And note what she says (from the link at the OP):



Has Snowden always been like this? Is he interested in more than his own salvation? People who have met Wizner realise that this man must have influenced Snowden too. He must have turned him into an activist at last. It was Snowden, however, who wanted it to not be all about himself, it was Snowden who retreated so that his documents could speak, explains Wizner.

....Ben Wizner brings a glass of juice. He is moved. He has been travelling for a year, because Snowden is stuck in Russia. He speaks where Snowden doesn’t have a voice. For a year now he has literally been Snowden’s right-hand man.

He just followed Snowden’s advice via Skype and stopped me from falling against the metal filing cabinets in his office. “That’s Ed how I know him. The empathy, the clear voice, the care,” says Wizner.


What "kind" of epilepsy Snowden has isn't critical. It presents in a number of different ways. It can cause behavioral changes in all its iterations --and those changes are just that--changes. This attempt to equate change with "wrong" or "bad" isn't coming from me--it is coming from the people who claim to be Snowden's champion because their goal is to shut this thread down. That kind of ham-handed approach doesn't prevent discussion, though--it just makes their agenda of topic limitation apparent. I don't understand why they can't hit HIDE THREAD and move on. Instead, they have been disrupting, diverting and derailing incessantly for the past several hours. It's very odd behavior, frankly, and it serves no purpose save to reveal their goals.
 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
127. Wouldn't some of the multiple brain surgeries that some epileptics have also be a factor?
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:45 PM
Jun 2014

I know a guy that has had over 10 before he was 20 yrs old.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
129. Any time you poke, prod, investigate, bump or insult the brain, there's potential
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:06 PM
Jun 2014

for change. It's important to reiterate that change is not a synonym for "bad" or "wrong" though, because some people are taking that approach!

I am not fully clear on when Snowden's epilepsy started. More recent reports say he was 23, but when it was first mentioned a year ago the story was that he'd developed it a year previously so that would be two years ago, when he was 28, not 23. Of course, an 8 can look like a 3 and vice versa if scribbled quickly. Maybe it was a reporter's mistake.

Maybe he hasn't had any surgeries--I just don't know.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
133. right....that's what I thought too...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:14 PM
Jun 2014

I know my friend has told me horror stories of brain surgeries while you are awake and they ask you questions during the surgery so that they know you can talk and see and stuff...so you are aware the whole time.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
135. YES! I actually had a "in law" (cousin's bride) who had to go through with that.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:23 PM
Jun 2014

It was a long time ago, too, in the analog days of that kind of thing. She didn't mind it at all and managed to find humor in it. While they're poking around in there, they will ask you to perform tasks, like count backwards, wiggle/lift this and that, and ask you if you smell anything, stuff like that.

I think Michael J. Fox went through it more recently so they could implant a wire in his brain so he could send a signal down it to help him mitigate his Parkinsonian affect.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
93. Anything that touches St. Eddie
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:30 PM
Jun 2014

must be handled with kid gloves! They are always trying to put him in the victim position and if he has epilepsy, to use that as a cudgel in the debate. Now to be against what he did is to be mean to epileptics! This is how that works and it happens too much on DU.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
30. No, YOUR attempt to tar others as saying something they did not is a "new low". Epilepsy MAY
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:44 PM
Jun 2014

cause personality changes. MAY.

Something caused Snowden's personality to change. Radically.

http://www.epilepsymatters.com/english/lwebehavioural.html

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
35. Really? Have you ever known anyone who suffers from epilepsy? I have, the worst kind, and she
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:20 PM
Jun 2014

is one of the most brilliant women I have ever met. Any personality change, as is being put forth, is brief during an attack. But has zero lasting effect, has NEVER affected her thinking or decision making in any way.

So if this is supposed to be used to 'explain' Snowden, it is going to be a massive failure and will only anger people more.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
48. What IS the 'body of knowledge' on the subject, and how does it have any effect on the disclosures
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:13 PM
Jun 2014

massive Constitutional Violations by the NSA and their Private Security Contractors against the American people?

Iow, what relevance does this have to the actual issue? And why would ANYONE try to use it to smear a Whistle Blower especially when there is not disputing the evidence he provided? Can you explain that?

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
65. Correct me if I'm wrong; but ...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:55 PM
Jun 2014

weren't you responding to a dialogue where two poster were discussing personality changes in folks suffering brain disorders? The body of knowledge I was referring to is in that context and was linked to in the post that you responded to.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
79. The thread is about a Whistle Blower. I see nothing in the OP that discusses the condition
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:44 PM
Jun 2014

itself other than HE DOES suffer from the condition.

The implication in the thread is that somehow Snowden's personality, changes, brain disorder or boxes in the garage etc, has something to do with the Documentation he provided of massive crimes being committed against the American people by the NSA and their Private Security Contractors.

I asked you to explain how? You haven't, which is fine, because we know that it doesn't.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
84. Then, you clearly did not read the post you responded to ...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:03 PM
Jun 2014
No, YOUR attempt to tar others as saying something they did not is a "new low". Epilepsy MAY cause personality changes. MAY.

Something caused Snowden's personality to change. Radically.

http://www.epilepsymatters.com/english/lwebehavioural.html


Well ... you must have read it, because you responded:

Really? Have you ever known anyone who suffers from epilepsy? I have, the worst kind, and she is one of the most brilliant women I have ever met. Any personality change, as is being put forth, is brief during an attack. But has zero lasting effect, has NEVER affected her thinking or decision making in any way.

So if this is supposed to be used to 'explain' Snowden, it is going to be a massive failure and will only anger people more.


But are now trying to revise history to make it about what was disclosed, when clearly that was not what was being discussed ... except by a very few.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
85. Perhaps you should read more closely. I have asked repeatedly what this has to do with what
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:09 PM
Jun 2014

Snowden revealed but have received only one honest answer, NOTHING. And clearly, considering this is not the first time Snowden's mental health has been raised, last time they accused him of FAKING epilepsy to try to get the meds or something, now they contradict themselves and say he DOES have it, clearly these attempts to smear the messenger are going to be challenged,

So no, I didn't 'suddenly' make it about what was disclosed, I have ALWAYS made these smears about what was disclosed, from the moment they started, from the boxes in the garage, to the ballerina, to his political affiliation and now, AGAIN, his mental health, I have and will continue to ask 'what has any of this got to do with what he disclosed'?

I notice you haven't answered that question. No need, we know the answer. Nothing.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
86. But your repeated asking is a non sequitor to ...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:11 PM
Jun 2014

a discussion of brain disorders affecting behavior/personality, right?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
96. What does it have to do with the evidence of massive crimes committed against the American
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:34 PM
Jun 2014

people? It's not a difficult question, don't know why you are having such a hard time answering it.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
106. Exactly!!!
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:07 PM
Jun 2014

What does "'evidence' of 'massive crimes' committed against the American people" have to do with a discussion of personality/behavioral changes related to brain disorders.

It's only that because YOU want to make it about snowden the innocent rather than what was being discussed with snowden being an example.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
109. This thread is not about what Snowden disclosed. Try to follow along.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:18 PM
Jun 2014

Why don't you re-read the OP, you seem to have forgotten the actual SUBJECT of this thread.

You're playing a SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP game, and I am noticing it and mentioning it.

Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #88)

treestar

(82,383 posts)
91. No one said that
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:28 PM
Jun 2014

What BS. You're trying to create a straw individual in order to gain sympathy for Eddie.

Epileptic or not, he had not right to break the law and has no guts since he won't face the music. Other epileptics have to obey the law or face the trial. Fail.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
3. omg, this again??
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:37 AM
Jun 2014

1. a stroke is not a "fit" or seizure.

2. a seizure (or epilepsy) is not mental illness.

This is getting pathetic, and an insult to those who suffer from seizures and their families.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
4. There is abundant evidence that epilepsy can lead to behavioral disorders.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:12 AM
Jun 2014
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1186336-overview

Surely you would admit that going from "Leakers should be shot in the balls" to "I'm a patriot" indicates a pretty dramatic shift. It's hard to believe that only a 'change of heart' was responsible for that. It would be comparable to Ted Cruz suddenly switching parties, IMO.

So it's possible that Snowden's epilepsy had at least something to do with it. That's all anyone is saying at this point. You can still regard him as a hero if you want.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)
[/center][/font][hr]

MADem

(135,425 posts)
6. I know someone who underwent electroshock treatment, for the usual reasons,
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:41 AM
Jun 2014

(medicine just wasn't working as well as it needed to be) and he exhibited a noticeable change in his affect as well. He went from outgoing and adventurous to introverted and religious. Still a very nice person, just not as fun-loving as he once was.

Any time you do anything even slightly significant to the brain, you're going to see changes in the person.

I find it odd that the poster went straight to an accusation of "mental illness," though AND a suggestion that this information--that Snowden does indeed have epilepsy and it wasn't tossed out as a cover story of some sort in order to get some leave without notice (which was a question never answered, near as I could tell) --was a "disparagement."

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
49. I find it odd that anyone cares about Snowden's health issues unless they contradict the evidence he
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:15 PM
Jun 2014

provided of massive crimes against the American people. Does his having epilepsy, assuming he does, have any relevance at all to what he has exposed?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
67. I find it odd that you are so frantically trying to disrupt a thread about epilepsy.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:02 PM
Jun 2014

That IS the subject of the thread. Epilepsy. Not "massive crimes."

Epilepsy.

If you want to start a thread about "massive crimes" why don't you get off your massive high horse and start one, instead of complaining about what we're talking about -- and that would be "epilepsy" -- in this little corner of the board?

There's no shortage of available bandwidth--go on, start a thread about "massive crimes," if you'd like. Room for everyone! Knock yourself out!! Further, I promise I won't come and shit on your "massive crimes" thread and DEMAND that we talk about epilepsy instead!

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
75. The thread is about Snowden, is it not? If you want to post a thread about epilepsy
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:37 PM
Jun 2014

I'm sure there are many people who would be interested, considering how many people are or have loved ones who suffer from the condition.

I don't see anything about epilepsy in the OP to discuss, just that Snowden has it. Did I miss something?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
113. This thread is about Snowden's EPILEPSY and the fact that he helped a woman with EPILEPSY
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:34 PM
Jun 2014

because his familiarity with the symptoms enabled him to diagnose her condition remotely.

You didn't even read the OP, obviously. You apparently stopped at the title and didn't even wade through the snip, never mind hit the link.

And what you've missed is an opportunity to behave in a way that isn't disruptive, goading, baiting and obstructionist.

Why don't you spend your energies a bit more productively, I have to wonder? I mean, it's all very well and good that you keep kicking the thread for the evening crowd with your snarky and off-topic comments demanding that people here talk about something that is NOT the subject of the thread, but after awhile, that kind of behavior is regarded as "thread derailing"--like long, drawn out conversations about gardening or other unrelated topics might be--and if that kind of thing persists, people view it as deliberately disruptive and derailing.

Now surely, is that your intent? To harass people about a topic unrelated to the thread so they are unable to discuss the subject of the thread, which is Snowden's EPILEPSY and his diagnosis of a woman's epilepsy remotely?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
12. I honestly cannot believe
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 01:55 PM
Jun 2014

that you folks are going here. Smearing everyone with epilepsy as permanently unstable because they have had a seizure. That's exactly what you are doing, too, not just to Snowden.

That's sick.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
19. Hello? Focus, please.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:07 PM
Jun 2014

Do you agree he underwent an enormous change in personality comparable to Ted Cruz joining the Democratic Party?

How does one get from "Leakers should be shot in the balls" to "I'm a patriot"? I don't know anyone else who has made that radical a change in their lives, do you?

No one is saying he's mentally ill and no one is saying he is permanently unstable.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
22. As I said to MADem
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:10 PM
Jun 2014

You two own that gleeful little conversation, and I refuse to discuss it further.

It was disgusting, and hurtful to those who have epilepsy or loved ones that do. You own it, and if you want to double down on it, so be it, but I absolutely felt it necessary to speak up and point out what you and MADem said was an ugly, ugly line of conversation.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
23. 'Ugly' to you, perhaps, but relevant to explaining why Snowden's personality changed.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:14 PM
Jun 2014

You won't address the main point, which, to me, is: how do you get from "Leakers should be shot in the balls" to "I'm a patriot'"?

The 'change of heart' theory doesn't seem enough, IMO.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
37. How does one get from 'I'm a Christian so I think marriage is for one man and one woman because
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:28 PM
Jun 2014

God is in the mix' to 'I support equality for all Americans'? Would your theory be that Obama had some brain issue? Not that humans grow and their often immature early opinions get replaced by information and wisdom?
Or how about Charlie Crist? He went from 'Palin is more qualified than Obama, so drill here, drill now' to 'Republicans are racists and I'm a Democrat now'. Epilepsy or stroke, do you think?

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
41. to say nothing of the possibility of "radicalization"
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:38 PM
Jun 2014

I was radicalized when I worked in Washington D.C. I was a centrist liberal. I worked for a non-profit humanitarian organization headed up by a high-profile right winger who was also a high-profile Christian. He was a significant figure in American history. I was radicalized working in that organization. I saw the hypocrisy and the intent to use massive fundraising for political purposes. I moved way to the left, as a result. I was never the same.

The Occupy protestors were radicalized.

The hippies were radicalized.

The SDS was radicalized.

MLK Jr. was radicalized.

They saw truth, and they changed.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
59. All those people interacted with other people.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:32 PM
Jun 2014

Snowden didn't. So far as we know, he left not a single friend behind. From all your examples, being radicalized depends on being part of a community. Snowden was never part of anything, apparently.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
69. oh noes
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:07 PM
Jun 2014

Now Snowden's a misanthrope! "Never part of anything"!

The horror. Worse than boxes in the garage!

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
83. Not at all. Just saying he was probably never radicalized by anyone.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:01 PM
Jun 2014

So, again, how to explain his personality change?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)
[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
191. Really. One's enough.
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 11:09 AM
Jun 2014

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

MADem

(135,425 posts)
74. That's an interesting point. A few work colleagues have commented about him, but in
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:36 PM
Jun 2014

very generic ways, mostly to do with his abilities in the workcenter--not about his amusements, hopes, dreams, or personal life. I think the only person who knew him at all was the girlfriend. No "chums" have come forward to talk about deep conversations, shared adventures or anything like that.

He did seem to be a loner, come to think of it. He did have friends in his youth, and he was social as a teen, back in the days when he was harboring notions of being a youthful model and playing video games at Fort Meade on 911. He also had a rather snarky and vibrant (irreverent, as well) sense of humor back then; the humor seemed to abate in his later writings. The newbie young Snowden asking about technical issues on Ars Technica didn't sound at all like the Snowden yelling about shooting people in the balls.

deurbano

(2,891 posts)
161. "They saw truth, and they changed" doesn't require a community.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:52 PM
Jun 2014

There are other ways to "see" truth. MLK, Jr. didn't "interact" with Gandhi.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
166. agreed.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 11:07 PM
Jun 2014

I saw truth, and I changed. I was the only person in my place of employment that was radicalized by it.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
180. We all have paradigm shifts
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 01:04 AM
Jun 2014

When suddenly, we think differently.

I remember a story. A man was on the train and his kids were running all around irritating passengers, while their father ignored them. A woman next to him said, loudly, "Shouldn't you get those kids under control?"

He turned to her and said, "Yes, I will. I'm sorry, ma'am, they just lost their mother and they probably aren't dealing with it any better than I am."

That's a paradigm shift when you realize that what you assume about a person has nothing to do with what they are experiencing.

I think Edward Snowden had a paradigm shift and realized that he couldn't morally and ethically support what he was doing anymore.

If you DON'T have a paradigm shift of morality and ethics at some point in your life, you stay a child ethically and morally.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
52. Obama has been quoted as being for equality before he was against it.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:21 PM
Jun 2014
So that doesn't even fly in the slightest.

He was on the record as pro-equality when he was a state legislator. He modified his position (i.e. lied) for the idiots in the red states when he ran for the Presidency. GHW Bush did the exact same thing on the issue of choice to get on the Reagan ticket.

No one ACTUALLY changed their minds in those two examples--they just bullshitted to get somewhere. Snowden did have a profound change of heart, for whatever reasons. It's some distance from "shooting leakers in the balls" to handing out the nation's secrets like Halloween candy.

If you don't believe that epilepsy, stroke and other brain issues have the capacity to change a person's thought process, then you are a pretty unique person. This is not a "bad" thing, it just IS. I don't know anyone with knowledge on these topics that would make the claim that the brain remains static in any event, but certainly not under the influence of something as portentous as epilepsy. The National Institutes of Health certainly think that changes are not uncommon:

Epilepsy can be accompanied by changes in cognition, personality, affect, and other elements of behavior. There is no single epileptic constitution or personality complex. A unifying theme to the behavior in epilepsy is diversity. As one looks at the behavioral traits reported in epilepsy, a specific and consistent pattern is lacking. Rather, extremes of behavior are accentuated: sometimes in one direction, often in both directions. Changes in emotional state are prominent among behavioral features in epilepsy. Some authors describe a prominent deepening or increase in emotionality, whereas others identify a global decrease in emotional life and content. Emotional lability is also reported. Sexuality and libido are typically decreased, but fetishism, transvestism, exhibitionism, and hypersexual episodes also occur. Concerns over morality may be lacking or exaggerated. Patients may be irritable and aggressive or timid and apathetic. The impressive list of people with epilepsy in politics, religion, arts, and sciences suggests a positive expression of this behavioral spectrum. Psychosis, depression, paranoia, and personality disorders may represent a negative pole of epilepsy-related behavioral changes. The most important aspect of behavioral changes in epilepsy for physicians is to recognize and treat dysfunctional behavior. Depression is a common problem that is often unrecognized and untreated. Other treatable problems include impotence, anxiety, panic attacks, and psychosis. Identifying risk factors will, it is hoped, assist in developing methods to prevent these disorders.


But you go on ahead and insist that there's no possibility of any changes in anyone's thought process in any way as a consequence of epilepsy.
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
53. Obama was playing politics, that was clear from the onset.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:22 PM
Jun 2014

So no, I don't see a politician's public statements to be evidence of a personality change.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

MADem

(135,425 posts)
76. The only thing "gleeful" here is your gleeful attempt to play gotcha.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:40 PM
Jun 2014

Pity you keep falling on your face.

What's hurtful about talking about a medical condition? You're the one who is "doubling down" on looking for shame in this thread. Maybe you should try reading the article at the OP before you embarrass yourself further.

Then maybe you'd realize that the guy talking about epilepsy is named .... SNOWDEN.

Ooops.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
51. Explain what relevance this has to the information of massive crimes against the American people
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:16 PM
Jun 2014

he has exposed?

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
54. None.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:23 PM
Jun 2014

Thanks for your time.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

MADem

(135,425 posts)
63. Explain what relevance that has to do with the OP?
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:44 PM
Jun 2014

Fact: Snowden has epilepsy.

Fact: Snowden helped a woman, virtually, who was having an epileptic seizure in Germany.

Fact: The reporting of this incident confirms something we didn't really know for certain, that Snowden--yes--does have epilepsy.

Fact: You don't want to talk about this, so you're engaging in a campaign of disparagement, distraction and innuendo.

If you don't think there's enough chit-chat on this board about "the information of massive crimes against the American people" that Snowden has exposed, then you go on ahead and start a thread on that topic--I'm sure you'll get plenty of people willing to talk more on that topic.

This thread, though, is about the fact that we've learned through this recent news story that yes, Snowden does indeed have epilepsy.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
36. So this IS an attempt to smear Snowden. And there is NO evidence that the comments from the right
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:24 PM
Jun 2014

wing website were ever made by Snowden, not a shred of evidence that I could find.

For you to denigrate people who suffer from this illness is simply despicable. I have a friend who has suffered all her life with it and she is one of them most accomplished, intelligent women I have ever known. Her illness has NEVER affected her ability to function at her job or in her thinking.

This is a disgrace. And all it is going to do is to anger even more people when they see this attempt to use it against him, assuming he does suffer from epilepsy.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
57. You disagree that epilepsy can change one's behavior?
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:26 PM
Jun 2014

You think the widely-held postings from Snowden's previous life were in error somehow?

No one is denigrating anyone. Snowden's personality clearly changed. And it was pointed out by MADem about a year ago that adult onset epilepsy could conceivably leave brain lesions.

Do you still subscribe to the theory that Snowden simply "saw the light"? That's hard to believe, IMO.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
72. You think that this changes the evidence presented by Snowden about the violations of
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:15 PM
Jun 2014

Constitutional Rights of the American people? How so?

Here, let me help you. Let's say a two year old playing in a park, stumbled on some important documents which exposed crimes being committed by a major corporation. The baby is playing with them when his father realizes they are important. The baby of course has no clue what the documents are.

How does the fact that it was a two year old who found the documents, make the crimes go away?

I have no clue what point you're trying to make. Maybe you can be more clear.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
164. His decision was an excellent one. Which only proves how rational he is.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 11:04 PM
Jun 2014

Also proves that someone with epilepsy can make excellent decisions based on the real world they live in.

Contrary to what you are implying. Although I thought you said this OP was implying nothing of the sort??

MADem

(135,425 posts)
179. Coulda fooled me. He didn't sound all that thrilled talking to Brian Williams.
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 12:14 AM
Jun 2014

So gee, there's an opinion, and it is different from the one you hold.

And enough with the inaccurate implying business.

If I have an opinion, I call it that. If I am speculating, I say so.

You might try doing that every now and again and being a bit less accusatory. It would certainly make for a change.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
70. What "right wing website?" Ars Technica is a computer expert's website.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:13 PM
Jun 2014

And that WAS his account, make no mistake. Those WERE his words. That's not in dispute.

Unless the Guardian newspaper, Greenwald, and a host of other reporters got it all wrong.

If you read the link in the OP, you wouldn't be "assuming" he had epilepsy--you would KNOW he has epilepsy. Unless the woman who had the seizure is a big fat liar, and thought it would be fun to make up a big huge story and shop it in the German press.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
114. Taggespiegel is a classical liberal/libertarian publication
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:41 PM
Jun 2014

But I have no information on the leanings of the reporter in question aside from the fact that she's a feature writer.

It is interesting that the publication spends its space talking about her "fit" using space that could be devoted to the onslaught of the intelligence state and its resemblance to the Stasi.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
119. The article is very favorable to Snowden. I'm not understanding the complaints about it.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:02 PM
Jun 2014

Why all this concern about the "real estate" of a publication, I have to wonder?

It's up to the editor to decide which articles to publish. Apparently this story looked good to that editor, whosoever he or she might be.

I have no idea how many other articles this magazine has done on Snowden, but I'll bet there have been a few. You seriously don't think this story "crowded out" other Hot Snowden News, now...?

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
183. Jury results
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 01:44 AM
Jun 2014

On Fri Jun 13, 2014, 01:32 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

So this IS an attempt to smear Snowden. And there is NO evidence that the comments from the right
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5087821

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This post tells a lie about randome, suggesting that he/she is making fun of seizure disorders, when all he/she is doing is providing information about them. Sabrina1 is making every effort to shut down this thread and paint any dissemination of epilepsy or other brain conditions as insulting/making fun. This paints anyone trying to discuss these issues in a bad light. She persists in accusing posters, like this one, of "smears" and has engaged in a campaign of thread hijacking/derailment throughout. Very rude, uncivil, and the false accusations are hurtful. Also, there is no "right wing website." The OP is from a liberal publication. Half UNtruths and insinuations, they make DU suck.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jun 13, 2014, 01:40 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I agree with all in the post.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
5. Who said anything about mental illness? Answer--YOU DID. And ONLY YOU.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:32 AM
Jun 2014

YOU were the one who made THAT connection, and it is getting pathetic. Now you go on and OWN that. Shame on you.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
11. Um no
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 01:53 PM
Jun 2014

You did something worse. You implied that if a person has epilepsy and has a seizure, nothing they say or do is to ever be trusted again. It's fine if you want to smear Snowden, but smearing everyone that has ever had a seizure as subject to radical personality change and that they can't be trusted?

That's despicable.

You can defend it all you want, but YOU said it and you OWN THAT. Shame on you.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
13. No I did not. You have serious reading comprehension issues.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 01:56 PM
Jun 2014

I implied nothing of the sort--unless "implied" means "Aerows made some shit up."

Stop telling untruths about what I said and did not say.

Lame FAIL. Disgraceful, too. You can't point out where I said it, either--because it does not exist.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
15. Aerows read the thread and the little gleeful conversation
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:00 PM
Jun 2014

you and randome had in this thread and was absolutely disgusted by what you both implied.

If pointing out how ugly your smear was against everyone with epilepsy is upsetting and disgraceful to you, imagine how those whose loved ones and those on this board who have epilepsy feel when they read what you wrote.

If you have no shame, that's on you, but don't sit there and claim that isn't what you two implied.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
20. You read a little generic speculation based on a news report, and turned it, in YOUR head,
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:07 PM
Jun 2014

into some kind of "CLAIM." A "claim" that was "implied!!!!"



An "ugly smear!!!" Gee--he does have epilepsy, so how is that a smear? Please.

Get over yourself. I'm not buying the fauxrage drama and pouting.


Methinks you're protesting way, WAY too much.


Since plainly you know nothing about the topic let me give you a few links to get you started (so you don't embarrass yourself further):

http://www.epilepsymatters.com/english/lwebehavioural.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1201637/

Read, and learn. Or don't. I really don't care either way.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
38. So what is your point in posting the information, frankly I don't care what illness a whistle blower
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:29 PM
Jun 2014

suffers from so long as they provide EVIDENCE of the claims they are making, which Snowden has done. How is his having epilepsy relevant in ANY WAY to the information he has provided to the American people? As Gore said, evidence of serious wrong doing, 'a threat right at the heart of democracy'?

So the Whistle Blower has boxes in his garage, he has epilepsy, he has a ballerina girlfriend, he is a Libertarian, a Republican an Alien.

What if all that is true, what does ANY of it have to do with what Gore said, that the INFORMATION he provided demonstrates FAR WORSE violations of the LAW than the one he broke in order to get the information to the American people?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
42. If you DON'T CARE, why are you here telling me how much you don't care?
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:58 PM
Jun 2014

You are free to not care, go on and do just that, and have a nice day.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
47. You misunderstand, I don't care what illness a Whistle Blower may suffer from in relation to
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:08 PM
Jun 2014

what crimes they have exposed because it is irrelevant.

I will comment on all attempts to smear Whistle Blowers.

I hope you don't mind.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
61. So, if we "mention" that Snowden broke both his legs in Army boot camp, are we "smearing" him, too?
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:33 PM
Jun 2014

You're the one who seems to be associating something "shameful" with what is not an uncommon medical condition.

I can't help but wonder why you're making that association.

I certainly don't "mind" what you do, but I think you are displaying an unrecognized prejudice by getting huffy about what is simple fact, and trying to pretend that something that could very likely be quite relevant is "irrelevant" because it doesn't suit some narrative you are concocting.

Epilepsy can change a person's mood, personality, word view, intellectual output, and other aspects of their thought processes. This is not in dispute, and it's not anything to be "ashamed" about. You, though, are treating it as though it is something negative that must be denied.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
10. If a person has epilepsy
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 01:51 PM
Jun 2014

and has a seizure, nothing they ever say or do is to be trusted again. That's pretty much where they went.

I've seen some rotten smears before, but that one doesn't just smear Snowden - it smears everyone with epilepsy or anyone that has ever had a seizure. It's absolutely a disgusting thing to imply.


If that isn't bad enough, in a post last year, they claimed he was faking epilepsy to get drugs. Now since it is confirmed he has epilepsy, he's unstable.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2981963

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
14. THANK YOU
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 01:57 PM
Jun 2014

Absolutely.

I thought we had left this animosity toward epileptics behind. As the mother of an adult epileptic child, this made me sick.

nenagh

(1,925 posts)
33. I feel sick as well... and very angry ...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:09 PM
Jun 2014

Even a mention upthread of electroshock therapy.

I am actually shaking.. I'm so angry at this presumption of medical diagnosis/personality change.

Please give a hug from me to your lovely child.

nenagh

(1,925 posts)
50. I just didn't think to read anything like this on DU...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:16 PM
Jun 2014

in fact, it took a few re-reads to see what the posts were implying.

Hugs again. We will rise above this and not be dragged down.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
55. I'm sorry you had to read it here, too
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:24 PM
Jun 2014

I was just as disgusted as you and grasswire and others. I can't believe they are doubling down on it.

nenagh

(1,925 posts)
64. Gee, I'm just too riled up at the moment to actually read the rest of the thread..
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:51 PM
Jun 2014

but the gratuitous mention of electroshock therapy made me see red.

Seems reasonable to me that Edward Snowden encountered a cess pool of questionable practices at Booz Allen in Hawaii...

You know that I dispensed medication for years... and never did I encounter any attitudes as exemplified in some of these posts.

Hugs to you Aerows, I enjoy reading about your garden and how well it is doing.. Way up here, just north of the St. Lawrence River, I lost two clematis deep purple and white... to the extreme cold.

Take good care..

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
71. I have some HUGE tomatoes growing
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:14 PM
Jun 2014

peppers that are forming well, and today I made the delightful discovery of a 6-inch long cucumber ! I was so busy looking in the wrong place at the developing cukes that I didn't notice that big one forming under the leaves !

Sorry to hear about your lost clematis. It is always sad to lose one of your plants that you tend to.

nenagh

(1,925 posts)
82. That's hilarious...cucumbers hiding under the leaves.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:56 PM
Jun 2014

Toasted tomato sandwiches...and salad from your very own garden.

You'll have to take a photo of your cukes and tomatoes...so we can admire..

I have English lavender to plant...and I want to get flat parsley to grow...as I'm buying the stuff at a local store...and it comes from Texas.

I was very impressed...

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
87. I love English Lavender
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:18 PM
Jun 2014

but the one time I tried to grow it, I brought home a little plant and the cat thought it was a salad buffet. Between the time I came home from work, changed clothes and started dinner, the plant was gone

Maybe I'll try again .

Seriously, the cucumber were hiding. Their leaves are huge and you don't want to jostle anything too much, but I moved the leaves and there was a BIG ONE!

I'll be sure to take pics. I have some other plants I got from NRaleigh, too. He sent me a Ghost Pepper plant (yes, Bhut Jolokia! and it is doing well!), some Sungold heirlooms and some ornamental variety pepper plants with pretty purple leaves. I have a big box of sweet onions growing too, but they are none too impressive above ground, just a bunch of stalks sticking out .

MADem

(135,425 posts)
73. What's "wrong" with electroshock therapy? Why are you prejudiced against
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:25 PM
Jun 2014

it as a theraputic tool?

Are you denying that EST has potential to change the function of the brain as well? Now that's "sick," to quote YOU.

You're "shaking?" Why? Why does the mention of this therapy cause you to be upset? Do you harbor a prejudice against people who have partaken of it? Do you think there's something "wrong" with it? That's the sense I'm getting--otherwise, why would you be "shaking" at the mention of it?

I'm appalled at your readiness to throw electroshock "under the bus" as something "bad" and "shameful." It helps a lot of people, you know.

Why don't you try reading the link at the OP. No one is diagnosing anything--except Edward Snowden, who diagnosed a young woman having an epileptic seizure, and spoke to her about HIS seizures and how they affected him.

But hey, much easier to get "outraged" and "shaking" over medical matters. And, FWIW, as the links provided throughout this thread show, when the brain is impacted--by EST, by epilepsy, or by stroke--the function of the brain IS ALTERED. This isn't an opinion. It's not "presumption." It's not a "diagnosis" either--it's just plain and simple FACT.

And it's nothing to "shake" over, either.

Says a lot about you, that remark.

nenagh

(1,925 posts)
118. I am a pharmacist who worked for many years in a psychiatric hospital
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:01 PM
Jun 2014

in Ontario. We treated our patients with compassion and did not gossip about their condition. Their medical treatment and possible side effects was confidential information between the individual and his or her physician.

I have great sympathy for and appreciation of any person with any illness including any mental illness.

The concept of using Googled medical information to tar and feather Edward Snowden or any other person is contemptible, in my opinion.

In addition, I find it offensive that electroshock therapy was brought into the discussion because it is a frightening concept to many people... who already may have a negative concept of mental illness.

My anger is due to the unprofessional nature of this discussion and the attempt to further smear another human being.







MADem

(135,425 posts)
121. You are making false accusations, and you have the NERVE to talk about how
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:21 PM
Jun 2014

you have such great respect for people? Please. Indicting people with baseless accusations like you just did is a textbook example of UNPROFESSIONAL. I guess smearing is fine when you're the one doing it?

If you're concerned about "unprofessional discussions" you need to start with the individual in your own mirror, because your remarks take the cake.

Please point to any tarring and feathering happening in this thread. Your imagination doesn't count. Show me where people are insulting, mocking, deriding or abusing Snowden.

You obviously didn't read the OP link. Had you so done, you would have seen where SNOWDEN diagnosed the woman with whom he was conversing with epilepsy, based on, as HE said, his OWN symptoms.

If you're suggesting we can't talk about epilepsy and how it manifests itself, how it affects people, what the signs, symptoms, and affects are associated with it, well too frigging bad. We CAN and if you don't like it go on and use that swell HIDE THREAD feature. You aren't the net nanny and you are, quite simply, dead wrong.

And if "electroshock therapy" is frightening to you, you must not have gotten out of your cubicle much at that hospital you claimed to work at. Most people in the medical field aren't frightened by it, they regard it as a tool, nothing more. You'd think you'd be on the side of EDUCATING and not FEAR MONGERING.

Or would you want all that enlightening information to be stamped Top Secret and hidden away in an NSA vault, in case "someone" can't handle it, and so no one can have the knowledge of it and it remains a mystery to all but "pharmacists who used to work in a psychiatric hospital?"

What stunning hypocrisy. To say nothing of hubris. I won't even go into what a lousy and insult-laden argument you presented; that was pretty obvious early on.

nenagh

(1,925 posts)
126. MADem, at least read the comment correctly before you blast me...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:37 PM
Jun 2014

I am not afraid of electroshock therapy... as you would know if you read my reply correctly..

but, in bringing up electroshock therapy you may create fear in some others..

and perhaps leave the impression that it somehow relates to Snowden,

which, I think, was your intention.





MADem

(135,425 posts)
134. YOU were the one who rather eagerly dragged "fear" into the room, not me.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:19 PM
Jun 2014

You'd think a health professional would be the last person to do such a thing, but you were the first. Way to set the example and the tone. And then to make an accusation towards me when YOU were doing the ooohing and aahhing is a bit rich, frankly.

I brought up electroshock for the exact same reason I brought up strokes, and more recently CP and seizures, and any other condition that has a "brain insult" component to it. Further, I happen to know someone who had the procedure, as I mentioned. I also know a few people who have had strokes, from mild to severe. Here, let me bring up playing football with no helmet or an unsuitable one, we can throw that in the mix as well. How about getting hit in the head with a baseball? Getting knocked out in the boxing ring? Why is one "scarier" than any other? It's the brain taking the business end of it, no matter what the source--THAT was the point I was making.

ANY time the brain takes a hit--or several--as a consequence of any of these conditions, or something else entirely, it is impacted. Changes happen. Sometimes the changes are slight, other times they are profound. Sometimes they make things better. Sometimes they make things worse. Sometimes, they just make things ... DIFFERENT.

To pretend that "nothing happens" though, is just absurd. Actions have consequences.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
138. Why are you going so aggressively
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:55 PM
Jun 2014

after people that seek treatment for, or have mental issues? Read what you have written.

You are headed into "I am a doctor and I say Snowden's brain took a hit" territory, and you have no idea of his medical background.

If you are a specialist in psychiatric medicine that treated Edward Snowden, or a physician that specializes in TBI then you can offer your take. The rest of it is just smearing with a dose of your own opinion of what is and is not mental illness in an attempt to discredit Edward Snowden as a human being.

And believe it or not, he IS a human being.

WorseBeforeBetter

(11,441 posts)
149. "I am a doctor and I say Snowden's brain took a hit"
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:17 PM
Jun 2014

Shades of Bill Frist and Terri Schiavo.

Disgusting then, disgusting now.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
157. Perhaps the person to whom you are responding shouldn't
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:43 PM
Jun 2014

be going on about "Snowden's psychiatrist" ( I've never seen a word about that in the papers--never read anything of the sort) or his "TBI" (never saw a word about that either--there was a story about two broken legs, but no head injury...)?

Everything I discuss is either straight from the horse's mouth, or once removed, and published. Fact: Snowden has epilepsy. Fact: His mother has it, too. Speculation based on those two facts: Could it be an inherited type? They do exist and they are listed elsewhere in this thread.

That's not going far afield--that's drawing a logical conclusion.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
154. Why are you getting so piqued about it?
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:35 PM
Jun 2014

I'm not the one screeching and trying to shut this thread down. I'm trying to have a reasoned discussion about epilepsy, and you keep flinging shit to derail the conversation.

And don't tell me where I'm headed--you've gotten everything pretty doggone wrong thus far in this thread. I'm just having a conversation with people who WANT to talk about this topic. You, obviously do NOT want to talk about it --so why don't you just stop talking about how I shouldn't talk about this? Stop stigmatizing conditions that are--even if you don't like it--PERMISSIBLE to discuss in the 21st Century without shame or censure.

Speaking of your "I am a doctor" accusations, I'm not the one sending Snowden to a psychiatrist--YOU are. I never said he was treated by a psychiatrist, that's YOUR speculation--do you know for a fact this is the case? What was his diagnosis, then? And I never said his adult onset epilepsy was caused by a TBI--do you have information about that to add or are you just spinning tales? I thought that there might be an hereditary component to his condition, as his MOTHER also is an epileptic and uses a service dog to assist her with her condition. This is entirely within the realm of possibility as certain types of epilepsy can be inherited.

From our friends at NYU:

Is epilepsy inherited?

Most cases of epilepsy are not inherited, although some types have a genetic basis. Most of these types are easily controlled with medication. Epilepsy syndromes with a genetic basis:

Primary Generalized Epilepsies, Benign Rolandic Epilepsy, Nocturnal Frontal Lobe Epilepsy, Familial Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, Benign Familial Neonatal Seizures and Benign Familial Infantile Spasms. - See more at: http://epilepsy.med.nyu.edu/epilepsy/frequently-asked-questions#sthash.Emcm9ly1.dpuf


He has epilepsy--I should think the first line of attack there would be a neurologist...but what do I know?

And all that "human being" stuff? What, you assumed I thought he was a puppy, or a fig? Get off the soapbox, cut the drama, and if this thread bothers you so damned much, you DO know how to solve that problem.

You keep trying to change the subject, shut down conversation about the simple topic of epilepsy in the OP and derail this thread, but all you're doing is kicking it. If you keep this up I will have to conclude that you actually get a charge out of fighting about something you "hate" to see (and could obscure from your view by simply immersing yourself in something more to your liking).



 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
173. On the contrary
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 11:35 PM
Jun 2014

I'm certainly not one to attempt to shut threads down. I hope this thread stays open for a few days so that more than a few members can venture into it and see what is being said in here about mental illness, epilepsy and the people who make the statements about either.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
181. Yes--it's very interesting to learn who attaches feelings of shame or demands silence
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 01:09 AM
Jun 2014

about forthright discussion of these not uncommon brain conditions.

It says a lot about attitudes, certainly.

I'm so pleased that OBAMACARE covers all these illnesses now. Perhaps more people will be willing to speak up and speak out and enhance understanding, rather than insinuate that there's something "wrong" with discussing these matters.

Rosalynn Carter and Michelle Obama have also done a great job in encouraging people to speak out about these matters. Pretty soon, it will only be people with a very backward attitude who persist in telling people to not talk about these illnesses and how they impact people, and what those with these conditions can do to mitigate the impact. And perhaps, one day, if not a cure, there will be better medications to control symptoms without the many side-effects, some of which are difficult to endure.



Octafish

(55,745 posts)
24. Propaganda 101
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:21 PM
Jun 2014

in 1988, Reagan spoke on Dukakis, who sought counseling after his brother was killed by a hit-and-run traffic accident:

"I won't pick on an invalid."

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-08-03/news/mn-6862_1_medical-records

Dukakis, after that, sank and sank in the polls. When it comes to labeling a person, "mental health" works like a charm.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
25. It's really sad
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:23 PM
Jun 2014

They aren't just smearing Snowden, they are smearing everyone that has epilepsy.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
32. Anyone and anything will be used
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:04 PM
Jun 2014

for the goal. It's a disturbing example of the depth and the character of the corruption we face.

Human beings don't matter in these calculations. It's business.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
99. I know
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:39 PM
Jun 2014

I already told them, too, I wasn't going to respond anymore, but I am reading the thread. With every post they just keep going deeper and deeper into a place no one on DU should be going.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
26. +1 The lowest sort of propaganda,
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:27 PM
Jun 2014

familiar behavior by very familiar names at DU.

I hope this thread stays in people's minds as a reminder of agendas and levels of credibility here.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
29. Secret agents. Secret agendas. Secret government. Secret beneficiaries.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:40 PM
Jun 2014

Smearing is an art. Like trolling. A secret science.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
80. Thanks for kicking the thread with a nasty and nefarious assertion.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:46 PM
Jun 2014

Pat yourself on the back.

Did you even bother to read the OP?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
116. Yes and I also read the post I replied to.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:47 PM
Jun 2014

I wrote that propagandists utilize the mental health canard effectively. No where did I write or imply that you, MADem, were doing the same as what Reagan was doing. Should I, instead, have posted that someone, somewhere is doing Snowden a favor by pointing out he has epilepsy? I thought that part was obvious.


MADem

(135,425 posts)
177. The person doing Snowden the favor WAS, in fact, doing Snowden a favor.
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 12:04 AM
Jun 2014

The article put him in an heroic light, with his epilepsy at the center.
And no one was shopping a canard:

ca·nard
kəˈnär(d)/Submit
noun
1.
an unfounded rumor or story.
"the old canard that LA is a cultural wasteland"
2.
a small winglike projection attached to an aircraft forward of the main wing to provide extra stability or control, sometimes replacing the tail.


Snowden's epilepsy is not a "canard." It is a FACT. His mother's epilepsy is not a "canard." It is a FACT--she even has a service dog, named Ginger.

You do realize that the person who wrote the article in the OP is the WOMAN WHO WAS HELPED BY SNOWDEN?

Do you realize that Snowden's own experience with epilepsy was what enabled him to tell his counterpart at the remote location precisely how to help the woman?

It was a First Person Account from the woman who was helped, speaking of her experience with Snowden. Not a rumor. Not an innuendo. Not a Reaganesque "I'm not gonna pick on an invalid" remark (which didn't help one whit--MD had other issues, but that wasn't one of 'em).

This is a "Look at Snowden, what a good guy, he came to the rescue from thousands of miles away" story. Of course, no one has bothered to read it, apparently, so how would they know?

I found the story interesting because while I have seen stories that reference the epilepsy, this is the first I've seen of a story that puts Snowden in the room, talking about it. Every other time I've read about this condition, it's been through a reporter. It was never clear to me, at least to my satisfaction, that he even HAD epilepsy. I wondered if he just grabbed onto that diagnosis as an excuse to take unpaid leave because his mother had it and he figured he knew enough about it to get past any questions.

And why are you even hinting that there's something nefarious about epilepsy that is "exploitable" by "propagandists?" First, this is DU. Second, do you actually think this article is a secret? It's already bounced halfway round the world and been redistributed to a dozen or more outlets.

I am sure you don't mean to come across like you are saying "Don't talk about this topic, because someone might HEAR" but that is how you are coming across. And it's all irony laden, since Snowden is the one who wants every tidbit of information "out there," so why not this bit? After all, he's not some Nobody--he's a player in this exercise. He's fair game as much as any other public figure.

We're adults here and this is the 21st Century. Adults have been talking about mental health, brain injuries and illnesses, PTSD and TBIs with ever-increasing ease since Rosalynn Carter was First Lady. There's no need for any of that hushed "Think of the CHILDREN!" crap. This is DU. Progressives can talk about this topic in an adult fashion without having to look over our shoulders or speak in whispers. We can also talk about the effects of conditions in an adult fashion. If you have pancreatitis, you're not having the spicy meatballs. If you break a leg, you aren't running the 10K. If you have epilepsy, and Snowden does, and it might be inherited, his condition could very well impact his affect. Medical conditions can, as I've said elsewhere, result in changes--some good, some bad, some different. There's nothing wrong with discussing these changes either, and trying to guilt people into not discussing them is just wrong.

It is a MEDICAL condition, like Joe Biden's AVMs, like Ronald Reagan's dementia that he disguised by overplaying the hearing loss, like Richard Nixon's phlebitis that kept him off the stand, like Jack Kennedy's Addison's, like Tracy Morgan's broken legs/nose and internal injuries, like David Letterman's heart bypass--not a moral failing. REALLY. And there's nothing wrong with talking about it, even if one isn't Marcus Welby, MD. If we had to wait for subject matter experts for every topic, this would be a very bare board indeed.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
187. Thanks for the details. I remember the propaganda part goes back to when Snowden was new.
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 10:19 AM
Jun 2014

For instance, when you wrote a year ago:

I'd like to know who is paying his bills, and if he's getting treatment for his epilepsy, and

and here:

I read somewhere that he suffered SEIZURES. That he had EPILEPSY...

While I wrote about Reagan and Dukakis, looking back today, I should have linked to those originally to make clear my meaning.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
198. If you dig down into other posts in this thread, you will see where I am going with this.
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 05:43 AM
Jun 2014

The OP is the first thing I have seen that is a "first person" account of Snowden talking to someone about his seizures and indeed, "doing the Frist" to help this woman. It pretty much cemented the diagnosis. There have been plenty of flat out lies and shadings of the truth tossed out about this guy (his salary was the first and biggest one) and any time a piece of information can be fairly well verified -- and that's by someone other than Greenwald, who is an advocate and who is making money off the Snowden "product," you see--then it deserves to be given more credence.

You will notice, I hope, that I take huge pains to indicate when I am speculating. There are a couple of people on this thread, sadly, who believe that "speculation" is a synonym for a "claim." I claim to know nothing, but this IS a discussion board, and if we're fearful of discussing a subject, well, this discussion board won't be much use, now, will it? And that would be a shame.

I never demand, like some here do, that people AGREE with me, but I don't think it's right to try to smother differing POVs. And that is what has been happening in this thread: "Don't talk about the topic of the OP, talk about how terrible the NSA is!!!" As IF there's a limit to the number of threads people are allowed to start! This isn't a "Dem" issue, either, we do NOT own the "Pro-Snowden" viewpoint, "Bring Ed Home" won't be a plank in our national platform --there are people on both sides of the aisle who are Snowden cheerleaders and Snowden detractors.

I would like to know who's paying his bills--I do think that is important. Is Greenwald giving him money from the book sales? Is Greenwald's boss subsidizing him? Is Assange sending him a cut of what the Russian government has sent to him? Is the Russian government giving him the equivalent of FSB welfare? There was a story that he was going to be employed by the Russian "facebook" equivalent, but I seem to remember reading that this job didn't come to fruition. Did he get some other job, and does he go to an office or work from home? Is he a double/triple agent, employed by someone controlled by the CIA that Putin knows nothing about? (OK, I admit that's some crazyass James Bond speculation, but hey...if we're to discuss, let's not limit ourselves!) So the question of how he is supporting himself IS--and remains--absolutely salient. Money does buy more than food, shelter and clothing. It buys safety and security, particularly when you don't know the language, customs and culture.

As for his medical condition, what medications he is on can give one a strong clue as to what type of epilepsy he has. It's not a diagnosis, but it can give a reporter a basis for asking those types of questions.

Also, as a complete aside, really more tangential to the conversation than anything else, (though it may have been reassuring once Snowden took asylum in Russia) the Russians are no slouches when it comes to epilepsy research. They have at least one proprietary, Russian-produced, prescription-required anti-seizure drug of their creation (apparently it can be bought outside Russia w/o a prescription and it's a black market "club drug" hit in the UK). They also have available many of the newer drugs for patients in the RF.
For example, they have given approval for a "monotherapy" (one a day) drug out of Asia and it recently became available in Russia. They are most assuredly "in the pack" on this subject when it comes to R and D, and they have their share of studies up and running and/or published in the medical magazines.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
221. thanks for the links, Octafish
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 09:25 PM
Jun 2014

I'm compelled to pull just a bit from one of those threads from a year ago:


I don't know if he's on depakote (common anti-seizure drug) but it also has an off-label use as a treatment for bipolar/schizophrenic affect. Works well with some patients, too. All that was pure speculation, and it was the "seizures" thing that triggered my memory of the off-label use of the drug (I know someone who is using the drug in this fashion, to good effect, too, when she stays on the drug--when she goes off, she gets grandiose--her family is now attuned to notice the signs and make sure she stays "medically compliant&quot .

So...yeah. It crossed my mind that he may have been using a fake diagnosis of epilepsy to get that drug, and actually be on the med for another reason. With a clearance that high, surely he'd have to do the old lie detector every now and again...? How the hell would he pass that? Nerves of steel? Sociopathic personality? Valium?

I found your comments very interesting and elucidative. I have to say, I feel the same way you do--that this smells like someone is targeting OBAMA, and if this guy knows what he grandiosely claims to know, he could be a real problem and jeopardize the lives of contacts and operatives in the field.

I'd love it if he had next to nothing and he was a grade A bullshitter. I don't think that's the case, though...


From MADem.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
78. There you go, with that phony "claimed" assertion again.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 05:44 PM
Jun 2014

Nothing in that thread "claimed" anything, and you know it.

Stop creating false narratives. I'll keep calling you on it every time you do.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
197. No--that's where YOU and YOU ALONE went. Shame on YOU.
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 04:44 AM
Jun 2014

Anyone who wants to know the backstory of the "Did he fake epilepsy?" QUESTION--never a claim, as Aerows insists, but simply a speculation-- can read this entire thread and see where my thought process was, but suffice it to say that epilepsy is a permanently disqualifying medical condition for entrance into the US Army. If he grew up with epilepsy, he couldn't have joined up.

My initial thought, thus, was that something was awry, there. However, if his epilepsy was adult-onset, it either began during basic training, (which would account for a discharge from service, but that's just speculation, too) or after basic training. Because his mother has the condition, it's also reasonable to wonder if he has the hereditary form of the condition which can manifest in very specific ways.

So, all this "untrustworthy" and "unstable" talk, readers? That's coming from AEROWS. And NO ONE ELSE.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
31. Again, YOU are the one equating epilepsy to mental illness. As if mental illness is so horrifying.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:45 PM
Jun 2014

You are. And then you are trying to assert others are doing this.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
40. Can you explain what Snowden's health has to do with what Gore called 'worse law breaking than
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 03:35 PM
Jun 2014

the law Snowden himself broke, and acknowledged btw, in order to get this information to the American people?

Does it mean the documentation he provided is no longer documentation of egregious crimes against the US Constitution, as Gore said, a 'threat to the heart of democracy'?

We are at a loss as to the reason for the focus on this irrelevant information.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
45. Thank you--this "sky is falling, oh the humanity" game is getting old.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:02 PM
Jun 2014

There's nothing wrong with discussing facts. For the longest time, the whole "Left work to get treatment for epilepsy" story was just that--a story. After all, how could a person with epilepsy join the Army? Answer--they can't; it's a permanently disqualifying condition.

Now, we learn that Snowden's epilepsy did not have an onset until he was in his twenties. That's salient to the whole picture, but as you correctly note, it has nothing to do with mental illness.

 

elias49

(4,259 posts)
92. Not 'salient' at all.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:29 PM
Jun 2014

It's diversionary....forget everything anyone has said about our privacy rights being violated. By Obama's White House. Now that's a salient point!

MADem

(135,425 posts)
97. Nonsense. It "diverts" from your prosecution of a theme, perhaps.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:34 PM
Jun 2014

No one is stopping you from starting up a thread to talk about how your privacy rights are being violated.

His health is entirely salient to his behavior. Sorry if that troubles you, but you do have options.

 

elias49

(4,259 posts)
98. Nope. Sorry. Large FAIL on your part.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:38 PM
Jun 2014

OOO, I know. I should start a thread: MADem believes epilepsy makes a person untrustworthy. That should go well! Shall I?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
108. Why are you asking me if you should start a thread that blatantly tells a falsehood
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:14 PM
Jun 2014

about my POV?

You really are rude and uncivil--plus, when you don't tell the truth about what people say, when you misrepresent their viewpoints, that says more about you than anything else.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
184. Yes, you should.
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 01:49 AM
Jun 2014

Please post an OP demonstrating where MADem expressed a belief that epilepsy makes a person untrustworthy.

Be sure to include links to where MADem said such a thing, and the specific quotes of his statements to that effect - uh, no, not what you think he said, but what he actually said.

THAT should go well!

Bobbie Jo

(14,341 posts)
140. Gotta say
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:58 PM
Jun 2014

Stellar performance from the faux outrage players.

Is there a DU equivalent to the Oscar?

BRAVA!

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
111. I see no mention of mental illness in the OP.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:25 PM
Jun 2014

Seizures are seizures and mental illness is mental illness. They are not the same thing, but why do you say that mental illness is an "insult?" Are you saying that you think people who suffer from mental illness have cooties or are somehow inferior or what?

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
130. context: a thread from May27
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:07 PM
Jun 2014

Vattel (4,432 posts)
20. I hope they don't expect him to rot in a supermax prison for decades.
That would be crazy.

Response to Vattel (Reply #20)
Wed May 28, 2014, 07:20 AM

Star Member randome (21,078 posts)
90. Why would they? He deserves time but I would hope it wouldn't be excessive.
The man is very confused. Hopefully, if he doesn't try to deny what he did, he would get some leniency for that.
Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"

Response to randome (Reply #90)
Wed May 28, 2014, 09:18 AM

Star Member msanthrope (24,799 posts)
97. Given his neurological disorder, I would think he'd qualify for medical pardon, and certainly would
be housed in a medical unit.
I haven't changed my avatar once in my 12 years of being on this site. Until now. It's time.

Response to msanthrope (Reply #97)
Wed May 28, 2014, 10:26 AM

Vattel (4,432 posts)
108. I didn't realize he was diagnosed with a neurological disorder.

Response to Vattel (Reply #108)
Wed May 28, 2014, 10:28 AM

Star Member msanthrope (24,799 posts)
109. Late onset seizure disorder is what he claimed to his bosses at BAH. Must suck, not being able to
drink in Mother Russia.
I haven't changed my avatar once in my 12 years of being on this site. Until now. It's time.

Response to msanthrope (Reply #109)
Wed May 28, 2014, 10:43 AM

Vattel (4,432 posts)
113. Why would that get you a medical pardon?

Response to Vattel (Reply #113)
Wed May 28, 2014, 10:50 AM

Star Member msanthrope (24,799 posts)
116. It might not. It might get him Butner. nt
I haven't changed my avatar once in my 12 years of being on this site. Until now. It's time.

Response to randome (Reply #90)
Wed May 28, 2014, 10:25 AM

Vattel (4,432 posts)
107. "The man is very confused." The smears never stop.

..........................BIG SNIP HERE

Response to ProSense (Original post)
Tue May 27, 2014, 06:04 PM

Star Member struggle4progress (79,856 posts)
4. Sure sounds to me like the poor kid has gone round the bend
Some of his early claims were weird -- such as his alleged ability to wiretap the President

And that fact -- that Greenwald, despite portraying himself as a journalist, decided it was important to squash release of the kid's "manifesto" as being too Unabomber-ish -- rather suggests that even Greenwald found some of Snowden's thinking too strange for public consumption

The evidence begins to indicate, I think, that the kid is a serial prevaricator: the question is whether his misrepresentations are deliberate or whether they are symptoms of some psychological disease
Give me the courage to change what I can change, the patience to accept what I cannot change, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of people I had to kill because they pissed me off -- St Francis, Revisited


Response to struggle4progress (Reply #4)
Tue May 27, 2014, 06:22 PM

grasswire (40,677 posts)
5. that is a disgusting assertion
....and I hope that some of the DU members who are offended by toxic use of mental illness as a way of discrediting someone will tell you how they feel about this, as well.

Response to grasswire (Reply #5)
Tue May 27, 2014, 06:44 PM

Star Member struggle4progress (79,856 posts)
9. What discredits him is his habit of saying things that are untrue. Less clear is whether
this behavior is under his control or not
Give me the courage to change what I can change, the patience to accept what I cannot change, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of people I had to kill because they pissed me off -- St Francis, Revisited

Response to struggle4progress (Reply #9)
Tue May 27, 2014, 08:07 PM

grasswire (40,677 posts)
17. more insidious assertions of mental illness...
.....in those who question authority.

Shame on you.

..........BIG SNIP


Response to struggle4progress (Reply #55)
Wed May 28, 2014, 07:23 AM

Star Member treestar (50,494 posts)
91. Great post s4p
seems a new victim meme exists. Now we can't discuss mental illness.

Response to treestar (Reply #91)
Wed May 28, 2014, 10:48 AM

Star Member sabrina 1 (44,332 posts)
114. So, Whistle Blowers are 'mentally ill' now? But Bush's loyal NSA spies are perfectly sane!
Why are Bush's appointees still running the NSA? It's been nearly six years since we put a Democrat in the WH. Got any explanation as to why Bush's NSA is still in place?

You know, the one we caught spying on the American people which absolutely OUTRAGED the 'left' at the time??

Don't know about you, but this Liberal is still outraged by Bush's NSA, his best and most loyal buddy, Clapper who lied to Congress and that they are still spying on the American people.

Response to grasswire (Reply #5)
Wed May 28, 2014, 04:06 AM

Star Member msanthrope (24,799 posts)
83. The fact is that Snowden himself disclosed a late-onset seizure disorder that raises serious, and I
mean serious.....neurological concerns. Heck--we don't even know if it is a seizure disorder, or, another illness. You'd be surprised how many drugs treat seizures, and psychiatric symptoms.

The number-one leading cause of late onset seizure disorder is alcoholism. While that may not be the case with Snowden, I'd be damn, damn interested in reading the suppressed manifesto.
I haven't changed my avatar once in my 12 years of being on this site. Until now. It's time.

Response to msanthrope (Reply #83)
Wed May 28, 2014, 09:28 AM

grasswire (40,677 posts)
98. oh my god
And you are the parent of a child with a disability.

I am the parent of an adult child with seizure disorder. To insinuate that epileptics are mentally ill is outrageous. Just outrageous.

And it's ignorant, too.

Response to grasswire (Reply #98)
Wed May 28, 2014, 09:43 AM

Star Member msanthrope (24,799 posts)
102. I used the term "neurological" not "mental." As you are the parent of an adult
child with seizure disorder, I am sure you can appreciate the difference between the two, and I expect that you will apologize to me for implying that I do not.
I haven't changed my avatar once in my 12 years of being on this site. Until now. It's time.

Response to msanthrope (Reply #102)
Wed May 28, 2014, 09:59 AM

grasswire (40,677 posts)
104. "psychiatric symptoms", "alcoholism"
You conflated epilepsy with those disorders. Slyly, of course.

The notion that an epileptic should be suspected of one of those is akin to saying that autistic persons might be suffering from psychiatric symptoms or alcoholism.

See how outrageous and damaging that is?

Response to grasswire (Reply #104)
Wed May 28, 2014, 10:21 AM

Star Member msanthrope (24,799 posts)
105. I used "neurological" as opposed to "mental" precisely to avoid conflation. But there's no doubt
that's Mr. Snowden's bizarre and grandiose behavior, along with his prevarication, and frankly, silly claims, indicate that it's entirely possible that he is 1) lying about having epilepsy, or 2) co-morbid, or 3) a liar about epilepsy and yet suffers from something else.

Bizarre and grandiose behavior, which he has demonstrated, is a psychiatric symptom. Alcoholism is the leading cause of adult onset seizures. There are seizure medications prescribed for schizophrenia. These are all medical facts.

You wrote:

The notion that an epileptic should be suspected of one of those is akin to saying that autistic persons might be suffering from psychiatric symptoms or alcoholism.

Well, yes--like the population in general, some autistic persons may be co-morbid. That doesn't mean they all are. Certainly, if an autistic person was behaving as bizarrely as Mr. Snowden was, I would seek to have them evaluated--not for their autism, but for their behavior. But I have yet to come across an autistic person as narcissistic as Mr. Snowden. (Did you think that picking on my daughter's disability was appropriate? why?)

You still haven't explained why Glenn Greenwald suppressed Snowden's manifesto. Why???
I haven't changed my avatar once in my 12 years of being on this site. Until now. It's time.

Response to msanthrope (Reply #105)
Wed May 28, 2014, 10:32 AM

grasswire (40,677 posts)
111. but "bizarre and grandiose" and "liar" are attributes...
...that YOU (not a psychiatrist or psychologist or even M.D.) assign to Snowden.

You are way over your pay grade asserting that Snowden may have or had "psychiatri" issues or alcoholism because you consider his actions grandiose and bizarre.

It's just a cheap way of mudslinging.

Response to grasswire (Reply #111)
Wed May 28, 2014, 10:53 AM

Star Member msanthrope (24,799 posts)
117. They are attributes anyone can freely assign him after witnessing his antics. He's a 'spy' now?
Come on....

Again---where is this manifesto? Why must it be suppressed?
I haven't changed my avatar once in my 12 years of being on this site. Until now. It's time.

Response to msanthrope (Reply #105)
Wed May 28, 2014, 10:48 AM

woo me with science (26,373 posts)
115. Just when we thought the smear attempts could not possibly sink lower or become more despicable...
Should have realized that the very serious business of protecting the NSA and smearing its critics doesn't *have* limits. I always make the same mistake with the other corporate talking points, too...assuming that there will be some sort of boundary of decency that won't be crossed.

Snide allusions to fabricated alcoholism, suggestions that he should be institutionalized...

I keep forgetting that corporate ethics are not the same as human ethics.


Struggle4Progress
4. Sure sounds to me like the poor kid has gone round the bend

Some of his early claims were weird -- such as his alleged ability to wiretap the President

And that fact -- that Greenwald, despite portraying himself as a journalist, decided it was important to squash release of the kid's "manifesto" as being too Unabomber-ish -- rather suggests that even Greenwald found some of Snowden's thinking too strange for public consumption

The evidence begins to indicate, I think, that the kid is a serial prevaricator: the question is whether his misrepresentations are deliberate or whether they are symptoms of some psychological disease
Give me the courage to change what I can change, the patience to accept what I cannot change, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of people I had to kill because they pissed me off -- St Francis, Revisited

Response to struggle4progress (Reply #4)

Tue May 27, 2014, 06:22 PM

grasswire (40,677 posts)
5. that is a disgusting assertion

Response to grasswire (Reply #5)
Tue May 27, 2014, 06:44 PM

Star Member struggle4progress (79,856 posts)
9. What discredits him is his habit of saying things that are untrue. Less clear is whether

this behavior is under his control or not
Give me the courage to change what I can change, the patience to accept what I cannot change, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of people I had to kill because they pissed me off -- St Francis, Revisited

Response to struggle4progress (Reply #9)
Tue May 27, 2014, 08:07 PM

grasswire (40,677 posts)
17. more insidious assertions of mental illness...

.....in those who question authority.

Shame on you.

more at the link

www.democraticunderground.com/10025008876
 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
131. Context is truly everything
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:13 PM
Jun 2014

I think it is clear why that particular line of thought pissed a bunch of people off. It has been non stop attacks on Snowden for mental illness and everyone else that has mental illness or illnesses.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
153. It isn't that mental illness is shameful, no not at all.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:34 PM
Jun 2014

It's that "mental illness" when used as an insidious way to attack someone who is under attack is wrong, as wrong as it is to use other conditions/illnesses as slurs out of our unenlightened past as humans.

Thank you for the opportunity to clarify.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
192. And yet...I never used the term "mental illness" but "neurological disorder".
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 11:12 AM
Jun 2014

iI just reread that subthread.... thank you for posting it. I think your conflation of neurological disorder and mental illness is not helpful to sufferers of either.

Nor do I think it stigmatizing to have either.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
199. Precisely.
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 06:32 AM
Jun 2014

The conflation is aggressive and deliberate, as well, throughout this thread.

It does not acquit the conflators well.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
18. At least you had the decency
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 02:07 PM
Jun 2014

to realize that what happened up thread was wrong, and attempted to change the subject. Thank you for not chiming in on what is a disgusting set of implications.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
103. Are you OK?
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 06:59 PM
Jun 2014

You seriously think that functioning adults (and I am one) give a fig about how "popular" their posts are on a website?

If I wanted a zillion "recs," if that was important to me, all I'd have to do is post a video of adorable puppies or kitties, or both, perhaps enjoying some interspecies cuddling as they fall to sleep.

That sophomoric attitude and that deep concern over who looks, and who recs, says everything about YOU.

Sorry to disappoint, because apparently you're invested in some weird way--I don't feel "stung" at all.

Response to MADem (Reply #103)

MADem

(135,425 posts)
105. I'm not supposed to mention that Snowden has epilepsy, or, apparently that he helped a woman with it
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:04 PM
Jun 2014

either.

Some people think it's "shameful" and "disgusting" to talk about plain and simple medical facts.

My POV is, that says way more about THEM than it does about me!

Also, I'm supposed to be upset because many people have "viewed" this thread, but few have "rec'd" it.

Oh, dear, what-so-EVER will I DEWWWW! I would cry into mah pillow, but Wheel and Jeopardy are on!

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
112. Uhm, in regards to the subthread above,
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:32 PM
Jun 2014

I see no mention of mental illness in the OP. Where did that come from and why is it ok to disparage people with mental illness by claiming that it is an "insult" to say someone has mental illness? The OP does not do that, but some posters in this thread are acting like someone did and making it out to be a terrible insult. Where in the OP is mental illness mentioned? Call me crazy, but I just don't see it.

On a related note: Should I go visit my therapist and punch them for their insult? I mean, they talked to my doctor, who prescribed the medication that fights the depression and I am able to live a normal life now without feeling terrible all the time. But, apparently, some people in this thread would be insulted to ever be compared to me. It is kind of sick and deranged, on their part, if you really stop and think about it.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
115. I don't understand it either, and I don't think there's anything "wrong"
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:45 PM
Jun 2014

with people who have coped with mental illness, epilepsy, strokes or TBIs. They happen. The more we know about the workings of the brain, the better we can address these conditions to the benefits of humanity.

I strongly support brain research--it's a complex issue and we don't know nearly enough about it.

The snarking and commentary says more about the people doing the snarking than anything else, IMO.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
125. All of the conditions you mentioned just now are treatable.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 08:35 PM
Jun 2014

Why some people are equating the OP with mental illness and saying that it is an insult to say someone has mental illness, I don't understand.

I support more research too, especially to find treatments that are more finely targeted to the areas of the brain that affect people with various medical conditions without such horrendous side effects that often come with treatments. I hope to see a future where there are better alternatives than removing part of someone's brain or taking a medicine that is hit or miss as far as whether it will work on a particular person or not.

In my case, it took years to find an antidepressant that actually would do any good for my depression. Now that my doctor has found the one that works best for me, I wouldn't trade it for anything. It has helped me live a normal life, treated with the symptoms of my depression. I know many who do not understand that you have to keep trying until they find the right antidepressant (or other medication) that works. It is literally hit or miss because we do not understand any more about the brain than we do. I'd like to see more research to make that less of a burden on people who are already suffering.

I suffered for years because I thought none of the antidepressants m would ever work. There were long spans in between my treatment attempts because I became disillusioned with the whole process and gave up over and over again. The brain chemicals are there in a lot of cases, but they are not working as well as they should. It causes a seemingly endless cycle of doubt and confusion until you find the right medication that will treat it effectively. Research would make it easier to match the right medications to the right people without the trial and error approach that is pure torture for people with mental illness.

I still don't see why two medical conditions are being compared up-thread and one of the medical conditions is considered an "insult" to have. Both are treatable and both are equally valid medical conditions. Seeing comments like that just adds more stigma to people with mental illness. People who are suffering enough already do not need that. I wouldn't wish untreated depression on my worst enemy. Even treated depression is no walk in the park. What people often do not realize is that when they say things like that, they are adding to the stigma and making people who still need help less likely to try to go get that help. They don't want to be seen as "off" or hear that what they are suffering from is considered an insult. Maybe they do not know that many of us with mental illness suffer from physical symptoms as well. In my case, the physical symptoms were way worse than the mental symptoms. I'm guessing the Cymbalta commercials did not sink in for people who do not know about depression, sadly.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
141. Jeez--hemispherectomy...the first time I heard about that I said WTF?
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:59 PM
Jun 2014

It was on the "list" of solutions (it being the most dire, pretty much) for children with seizures, which is how it came to my attention (young relative with CP and seizures--well medicated now thank goodness, no need for drastic measures, but we were doing a lot of reading in the early days and that procedure floored me).

Apparently, though, with the right doctor and the right age and the right circumstances and a little bit of luck, the amazingly plastic brain CAN rewire. What a task with that big an op! If I didn't know about it I would not have believed it possible. It was helpful knowledge when another relative had a stroke--I felt much more sanguine about how well physical therapy and occupational therapy can help the situation after learning about that operation.

I have a close in-law who was in a very similar situation as yours, and would become medically non-compliant (which of course never helps) owing to the prescribed "cocktail" of meds just not working, the side effects being brutally, physically and mentally onerous after a bit, things like that. The "go back and try again" tests went on for several YEARS and there were times when it was a bit of a challenge--the whole despair to exhortation cycle. It was a bit of a merry go round, lather rinse repeat. However, persistence pays off and now, with the right combo and dosage, everything is brilliant and has been for a good six or seven years with no issues. It's like sunrise over the water on a beautiful summer day, now. I'd be lying if I said it was easy--it wasn't but it was SO worth it to enable a family member to maximize potential at long last. It's so important to have support of family and friends, and stigmatizing doesn't help.

I think there will come a day when not all meds will be one size fits all. People will go and their dosage and medication will be matched to their blood type and DNA. Hopefully they'll be able to figure out before the agony of trial and error what works before the patient has to go through that roller coaster of illness and emotion.

As for stigma, it's stupid. Total waste of time. The way to get past it is to not hide, not be afraid, and not converse in whispers. It is what it is, and that's ALL it frigging is. I like what Rosalynn Carter did in her time on the mental health front, and how Michelle Obama has pushed the issues forward adding PTSD and TBI in the mix as well.

Onward and upward!

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
117. Interesting read ...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 07:48 PM
Jun 2014

What is even more interesting (though not surprising) is the reaction of the Snowdenistas, who are claiming that discussing Snowden's epilepsy constitutes a "smear", is a diversionary tactic meant to steer all discussion away from his claims about the NSA, and/or a call to distrust people who suffer from this all-too-commonplace condition.

Aside from the fact that such comments are ridiculous on their face, what is glaringly apparent is that many of the Snowden supporters here will literally jump on anything they even remotely perceive to be a slight against their idol - regardless of how inane that perception might be.

While Obama supporters are regularly labelled as being idol worshippers who can't abide any criticism of the president, it is amazing to watch the Snowden supporters insist that discussing Eddie's health issues, and their possible impact on his personality and behaviour, is an "attack" on their Chosen One.

The lack of self-awareness among the Snowdenistas is astonishing. They seem to have no capacity to recognize how far their blind worship exceeds anything the staunchest Obama supporter has ever posted here in praise of/in defense of the POTUS.



WorseBeforeBetter

(11,441 posts)
132. Obama is a class act...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 09:14 PM
Jun 2014

and I can't imagine him being too impressed with some of his most ardent followers using Snowden's (supposed) medical condition to score political points. Ditto for our classy First Lady Michelle.

Obama's *biggest fans* could learn a thing or two from Obama.

WorseBeforeBetter

(11,441 posts)
147. Take a few breaths and read it again, VR.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:06 PM
Jun 2014

Just like Obama said kids are off-limits, I imagine he'd say (supposed) "medical conditions" are off-limits as well. Whether McCain, Romney or Edward Snowden.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
150. I am not the "breathless" one here....
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:32 PM
Jun 2014

I read it quite well....and that is EXACTLY what you said.
THIS is Democratic Underground AND HE is a Democratic President....

THIS is not Snowden Underground....and HE is not even IN this country...

THIS is your difference...

Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #150)

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
146. I can't either
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:05 PM
Jun 2014

I can't imagine President Obama appreciating armchair TBI specialists or those that treat epilepsy slandering those that have it or any other mental illness as champions of his policies.

Edward Snowden's claims already stand on their own merits; trying to degrade the man for having epilepsy and implying that he is brain damaged or anything else is sick, self-serving and does no favors to anyone that believes in President or Michelle Obama. I think both of them would roundly condemn such attempts at conflating mental illness or a condition like epilepsy with instability or untrustworthiness.

It's sad.

WorseBeforeBetter

(11,441 posts)
148. I agree. But it's the same small crew over and over and over...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:08 PM
Jun 2014

and based on the fact that this OP has only 5 recs, maybe DU is a pretty classy joint!

You can tell they know they're wrong based on their increasingly vitriolic replies. And of course, "Snowdenistas" has made an appearance. So clever... so, so clever.

WorseBeforeBetter

(11,441 posts)
156. Use a few more exclamation points.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:40 PM
Jun 2014

We can't hear you. No all-caps territory yet, but I imagine it's a'comin'.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
162. HERE now you have both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 11:00 PM
Jun 2014

am I supposed to have hurt fee fees?

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
165. see my subthread where I posted part of a thread from May 27
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 11:05 PM
Jun 2014

In that thread, not only was mental illness (psychiatric issues) slyly assigned to Snowden, but alcoholism and "instability" and various other reasons for his actions as a whistleblower. Boxes in the garage and pole dancer had failed to turn enough people against him.

Octafish is right. Allusions to illnesses or "defects" as a way to attack one's target are abhorrent and throwback to a 20th century attempt to deny the human dignity and worth of all people.

All the jargon and all the singular anecdotes cannot disguise the intent here. These are people who have been attacking Snowden from the get go. There is every reason to grok this as one more attack in a continuum.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
182. Go back and read the entire thread ...
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 01:21 AM
Jun 2014

OP posted for discussion: "Snowden (who really does, apparently, have epilepsy) helps an epileptic"

Who was the first person in the thread to construe that as "using a medical condition against a person"? That was YOU.

Who was the first person to suggest that "the take-away here is that no one that has epilepsy and has had a seizure can be trusted"? That was YOU.

Who was the first person to insist that what WASN'T said actually WAS said? "Because that is EXACTLY what you are saying." Again, that would be YOU.

Who insisted that a discussion about epilepsy and its possible impacts amounts to "smearing everyone with epilepsy as permanently unstable because they have had a seizure"? Yes, YOU again.

I could go on - but I've more than made my point.

I have found this discussion about epilepsy to be incredibly informative and educational, and am grateful to the adults in the room who have shared their personal experiences, as well as those of friends and family members who deal with this condition.

It is unfortunate that what started out as a well-reasoned discussion among grown-ups was consistently derailed by the immature rantings of those who see the mere mention of the name Snowden as a reason to become totally unhinged, necessitating the creation an army of flimsy strawmen to be propped up in his defense - especially in a discussion where no reasonable person would feel he was under attack of any kind.

"Trying to degrade the man for having epilepsy and implying that he is brain damaged or anything else is sick, self-serving and does no favors to anyone that believes in President or Michelle Obama. I think both of them would roundly condemn such attempts at conflating mental illness or a condition like epilepsy with instability or untrustworthiness."

As anyone who reads this thread in its entirety will quickly see, NO ONE "degraded" Snowden, NO ONE implied that he is brain damaged, and NO ONE conflated epilepsy with instability or untrustworthiness - except YOU, by insisting that those things were stated when they very obviously weren't.

I can only surmise that you either lack basic reading comprehension skills, in that you keep insisting people said things they didn't say, or that your idol worship of Snowden has clouded your ability to grasp simple concepts like an adult discussion about a commonplace medical condition that your idol may or may not suffer from.







NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
175. The fact that you would think
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 11:58 PM
Jun 2014

anyone here is 'using' Snowden's medical condition to score political points speaks for itself.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
144. and ^^^ THIS!!!!
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:02 PM
Jun 2014

So good it needs to be repeated....hope you don't mind...

"The lack of self-awareness among the Snowdenistas is astonishing. They seem to have no capacity to recognize how far their blind worship exceeds anything the staunchest Obama supporter has ever posted here in praise of/in defense of the POTUS. " ~~ hattip NanceGreggs


MADem

(135,425 posts)
167. I've always believed that by their words we'll know them.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 11:07 PM
Jun 2014

And boy are we gettin' to know 'em!

I can't help but observe with amazement that topics that the ordinary progressive regards as "all in a day's work," like the sorts of illnesses that (hurrah) good old OBAMACARE now covers, are being regarded in some corners here as "smears" or "insults" -- as though they are moral failings or character flaws.

Shhhhhh---don't TALK about THAT!! It involves ... THE BRAIN!!! (gasp!)

It is, indeed, as you say, an astonishing degree of ... situational UNawareness!

 

JEB

(4,748 posts)
158. Attack the messenger by any means
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:44 PM
Jun 2014

and never discuss the facts of NSA spying and over reach. A real head in the sand approach. Is this the NSA defenders' Terri Schiavo moment?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
160. Is your hand broken?
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 10:52 PM
Jun 2014

Did you type that out painfully, with your nose, or something? Having trouble typing, or do you not know how to start your OWN thread?

You are free to start your own thread and discuss the facts of NSA spying and over reach all you want...in fact, start TWO threads if you'd like, no one is capping your bandwidth--that is, if you think they haven't been discussed enough in a zillion other threads on this board.

THIS thread, though, sport, is about EPILEPSY. That's the topic. Do try to stick to it, otherwise I'll have to assume you're being derailing and disruptive --and deliberately so, too.

Do realize that while you disrupt, you also kick the thread, so if you want people to just SHUTUP SHUTUP SHUTUP DON'T TALK ABOUT THIS you'd do well to stop bouncing it to the top of the leader board.

Your choice!

MADem

(135,425 posts)
169. Considerably more polite than the deliberate and crude personal insult you lobbed.
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 11:12 PM
Jun 2014

Or did you forget that you said this?

A real head in the sand approach. Is this the NSA defenders' Terri Schiavo moment?

You know, likening your fellow DUers who don't agree with you on this thread to Bill Frist, one of the most mendacious politicians in recent history, could be construed by most people as rude, hurtful, disruptive, insensitive, and viciously, childishly meanspirited. Certainly a LOW moment for you here at DU.

Now, if you have something to say about the topic of epilepsy, by all means, contribute. If you are simply here to call people names, I'd suggest you refrain and step off.

Response to MADem (Reply #169)

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
185. hard to believe your post below was hidden...
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 03:22 AM
Jun 2014

....when you actually apologized in it, and you were apparently misunderstood. You really got thumped, wrongfully.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
174. What an amazing thread...
Thu Jun 12, 2014, 11:42 PM
Jun 2014

especially the reaction from the perpetually outraged. I'd like to say I'm surprised, but I'm really not.

Good discussion and replies to them, MADem.

Sid

MADem

(135,425 posts)
178. I'm stunned at some of the less-than-progressive attitudes.
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 12:05 AM
Jun 2014

I think a lot of people didn't bother to read the article!

Thanks for the props!

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
186. I hope that DUers
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 05:37 AM
Jun 2014

actually read this thread through. You are saying people that have had TBI or epilepsy are not to be trusted, and that includes our people that have been in theater.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
196. I do,too because if they do, they will see EXACTLY what you are doing.
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 04:36 AM
Jun 2014

I'm saying nothing of the kind, but you're making things up and putting them out there as "Aerows factz." Just because it's in a subject line doesn't make it true.

And, so long as you're tossing barbs, casting aspersions, making things up about what people have said or what they believe, and not doing homework, you might want to learn the difference between a seizure disorder and TBI.

But thanks so much for that post. You've made it entirely clear, not that there was any doubt earlier, what your goal was.

Harmony Blue

(3,978 posts)
190. My little brother had epilespy as a toddler
Fri Jun 13, 2014, 11:03 AM
Jun 2014

and he functions just fine and I trust him.

Those that are adults that have to battle with epilepsy are still human and I still trust them. And they trust me when they are the most vulnerable and need my help to seek out medical attention.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
195. There are people on this website who are trying to twist this entire thread into something
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 04:32 AM
Jun 2014

more than it is. They are so determined to shut this thread down that they are spending their energies demanding that we talk about something other than the thread title, and they want to cast the worst possible light on this entire issue. I too have a family member with a seizure disorder and I don't claim that person is less human; the suggestion, made out of the blue by someone upthread, is repugnant. I also have had family members who have endured strokes, and I have seen the changes that insult can have on the brain. That didn't make THEM less human either. Further, I have an in-law who has a chemical imbalance that can be very problematic when not controlled, and I have seen what personal 'grit' and medical compliance can do to overcome that.

The point I am making is that the brain doesn't operate in a vacuum. It can be impacted by these many, and different, conditions, and that impact can result in changes to the individual.

The OP is an interesting one to me because this is the first time I have seen ES actively interacting with someone and talking about his medical condition. I think that is a salient issue. As I said to someone else, I had "heard" he had epilepsy, but I never knew if it was true or not. I looked askance because epilepsy is a permanently disqualifying condition for the US military, and he did spend a few weeks in the Army. I wondered if he used "Say, I have epilepsy and need some treatment" as an excuse to take leave from Booz Allen Hamilton, and he chose epilepsy because his mom had it and he knew the symptoms and issues (if one is going to tell a fib, it's best to go with what one knows). Now, we learn he was not fibbing and it was adult onset epilepsy that he had.

This also has nothing to do with "trust." I hope I am making this very clear but if I am not let me repeat myself--this isn't about ES's "trustworthiness" and furthermore, let me repeat it yet again, it has nothing to do with his HUMANITY, unless you want to argue that that, as well was enhanced by his condition. However, it is about the impact that epilepsy or ANY seizure disorder can (and sometimes doesn't) have on the human brain. The brain comprises a great deal of who/what we are, and changes to the brain (from epilepsy or ANY other brain condition, be it an insult, a chemical imbalance, a neurological issue, or any other impact) will sometimes change our personalities, our outlooks, our skillsets, our talents, our intelligence, our motivations, etc.

And that's not always--or even usually-- a "bad" thing.

Let me make that very clear as well. It can be good, it can be bad, and sometimes, it can just be DIFFERENT.

The argument can be made that epilepsy enhanced ES's moral core. Is that a negative? Shhhhh--don't TALK about that?? Only to people who want to make it so.

It could also be an argument for leniency in sentencing, should he decide to return home and take a plea bargain, or even take a chance with a jury, and not win his case, IMO.

Of course, because a select core of hyper-dedicated people were so eager to shut this thread down, to cast negative implications on the discussion, to get aggressive about it, too, it was impossible to have any conversation, or make any points, in an open and reasonable manner. There was a concentrated effort to divert, to change the subject, to play the LALALALA ICANTHEAR YOU card. It's obvious who was indulging in that behavior by reading the thread.

Not DU's finest hour.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
201. your fairly creepy deep obsession with Snowden aside...
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 04:48 PM
Jun 2014

...one might take your lengthy explanations seriously were this OP not part of a pattern by some to slyly and carefully tar Edward Snowden using all the old slurs that despots have thrown at dissidents over the centuries. Because some here see opposition to Snowden as their highest calling, this pattern persists day after day, some posts more cleverly constructed than others, but all in the same cadence.

No one has tried to shut your OP down. (Lord knows you have had your say, at great length.) Some have simply objected to this continual pattern of assigning all manner of illnesses and character flaws to Snowden in order to discredit his work.

You were not a participant in that prior thread (which I quoted at length in this one) where your cohorts did the same kind of sly assigning.

It is a pattern through history, and here today.

Be clear. There is no shame in mental illness, or in neurological deficits, or in any other condition of the human mind or body including addictions and weaknesses. None.

There IS SHAME when those conditions are used to influence public opinion against dissidents of TPTB.

And the sadly amusing part is that no mind is changed on DU by the bloviations of those who criticize whistleblowers. In fact, many members have indicated that Obama has not been helped by these self-identified defenders.

No matter how twisted your explanations are on this thread, no one is fooled.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
202. Look. Who's. Talking!!!
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 05:11 PM
Jun 2014

Anyone who reads YOUR posts in this thread can see exactly what you're about--and it ain't discussing the OP.

This thread has been assaulted by derailments, and you, while certainly not leading the charge, followed along smartly.

How nice that you FINALLY ADMIT that you smeared me--and my thread--with INSINUATIONS and snippets from a thread where I was not a participant. And you have the nerve to try and claim some kind of high road? What a joke.

And cohorts? What group of "cohorts" is trying to shut down this thread with constant derailments? You know, if your crew hadn't gotten a "hair on fire" attitude, this little discussion would be on page three or four by now. But no...you just can't help yourself, can you?

Look, you've let your flag fly and we can see it from a mile away. If there was any doubt in my mind about the way you "debate the issues," that horse has long left the barn. I know what you're about and how you play it. All I have to do is invite people to read your words and your dubious agenda becomes all too clear.

You are right that no one is fooled--but they're not fooled about the tiresome, childish "WAAH WAAH SHUT UP SHUT UP I CAN'T HEAR YOU" game you are playing. It's pretty doggone sad. The topic is epilepsy, and you can't manage to participate in an adult conversation about it. It's clear to me that you think that brain injuries, chemical imbalances, and seizure disorders are "wrong" because if you didn't think that way, you wouldn't continue to scream at me in this thread about them and assign nefarious "reasons" for the discussion that suit your agenda.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with discussing common medical conditions, and I don't think there's any shame associated with being diagnosed with one or several of them. I have said this repeatedly and you have deliberately ignored what I've said. Your constant push back indicates to me that you plainly think otherwise. Your use of dramatic verbiage falls flat.

But hey--thanks for the thread kick. Good job!

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
203. my flag
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 05:27 PM
Jun 2014

Here's my flag: Defense of the Constitution and those who defend it.

I hope to god my flag is clearly seen.

I'd be severely ashamed to be thought an apologist for tyranny, as some are here.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
206. You aren't flying that one here.
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 06:16 PM
Jun 2014

You must have that one in cold storage, either that, or you need to reread that Constitution you claim to support so proudly.

You're doing a great job trying to interfere with the ability of people to speak freely on a topic you don't like. That First Amendment, from what I hear from you, is just dandy for thee, but not for me.

Thanks again for the kick.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
214. Bullshit.
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 07:46 PM
Jun 2014

Pure bullshit.

And it's clear to all who read this thread.

I'm happy to kick this thread to expose the bullshit here.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
218. Getting a little irritated, are you?
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 08:35 PM
Jun 2014

Perhaps you might want to step away before you make a bad situation worse.

Your decision, of course.

Thanks again for the kick.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
219. "make a bad situation worse"
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 08:47 PM
Jun 2014

I don't know what that means. Is it akin to Whisp's threat of "street justice" to someone recently?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
222. Stop trying to pretend you're a "victim" now.
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 11:31 AM
Jun 2014

No one is "threatening" you and your attempts to suggest that are reprehensible.

If you don't "know what it means" it's because you're engaging in selective reading.

Harmony Blue

(3,978 posts)
215. I don't see how Snowden's medical condition is salient
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 08:32 PM
Jun 2014

or relative to events that unfolded...especially if he is epileptic.



nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
204. My youngest son, 27, is an epileptic
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 05:55 PM
Jun 2014

as I mentioned in another thread today. I laugh in the faces of the so-called progressives who insult and degrade epileptics. They are no better than raw racists and sexists.

When he starts to have his seizures my son told me he sees geometric figures, he calls them "triangle spaceships," with accompanying voices saying various things.

I've never heard so much ignorance in my life about epilepsy from the Snowden hate crew. I'm sure they are laughing inside while the epileptic suffers on the ground. Don't ever forget that epileptics have a short life span, about 30 years. So when they make snide remarks and quiet giggles over a seizure they are cheering on death.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
205. I beg your pardon? Your post is full of misstatements, to put it kindly.
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 06:13 PM
Jun 2014

Epileptics do NOT have a thirty year life span. That is a grossly false statement. Were it true, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court would be long dead, and Snowden would be on borrowed time.

I will assume that your post was not snark and you are merely uninformed about some aspects of epilepsy. I am offering you this link and I think you really NEED to read it. People whose epilepsy is well controlled with medication CAN expect to live a normal life span. Epilepsy occuring as a consequence of another disease, like, say, a cancerous tumor, fall into a less sanguine category. People who cannot control their seizure activity are at great risk, but these are rare instances. If you watched Sanjay Gupta's documentary about Ganja, he highlighted a young girl with this sort of condition, whose symptoms were relieved with cannabis oil from a specific type of MJ plant.


http://www.cdc.gov/epilepsy/basics/faqs.htm

Can epilepsy be fatal?
Most people with epilepsy live a full life span. Nevertheless, the risk of premature death is increased for some, depending on several factors:
Sometimes epilepsy is a symptom of a more serious underlying condition such as a stroke or a tumor that carries an increased risk of death.
People with some types of epilepsy who continue to have major seizures can experience injuries during a seizure from falling or hurting their head that may occasionally be life-threatening.
Very prolonged seizures or seizures in rapid succession, a condition called status epilepticus, can also be life-threatening. Status epilepticus can sometimes occur when seizure medication use is stopped suddenly.
Rarely, people with epilepsy can experience sudden death (SUDEP). These events are not well understood, although they are suspected sometimes to be due to heart rhythm disturbances during a seizure. (Sudden death due to heart rhythm disturbances, also occurs in the general population.) The risk of sudden death is not increased for all types of epilepsy, but occurs more among people with major seizures—especially generalized tonic-clonic seizures—that are not well controlled.


No one on this thread who takes issue with Snowden's decision to flee the country with classified material has said a single negative word about Snowden's epilepsy. Virtually ALL of the snide insinuation and the "what you really mean" innuendo and disparagement is coming from his so-called "fan club."

I think you need to read up on epilepsy, because you seem to not have a good grasp as to the mechanics of the condition. You might also want to see if you can talk to your son's doctor, if he will allow it, to get a clear view of his prognosis. If you are being told he has three more years to live, something else is going on besides epilepsy.

nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
207. Let me know if you feel the same way
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 06:28 PM
Jun 2014

after you have sat through over 200 grand mal seizures, ok? The real truth is, that the neurologists don't have a clue about what really causes epilepsy. Its basically quack doctor time. Medicine or no medicine the seizures continue. There have been MRIs and CAT scans which rule out cancer and strokes.

There is a great deal of speculation about epilepsy, about the psychology of epilepsy. You should revisit "The Brothers Karamazov," to get an idea about the emotional behavior of real epileptics.

To say that I am ignorant is nonsense. I've been his protector and friend for all these years and have spent almost 30 years trying to find a solution.

We all know that epileptics were accused by the Church of being in league with Satan. You don't have to say anything for people to think that, all you have to do is bring up the subject matter.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
209. You might want to contact Dr. Gupta's office, and find out more about that cannabis oil.
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 06:45 PM
Jun 2014

At least have a look at the documentary and see if there's anything in there that can help you--those brothers who are growing the particular strain of the High CBD stuff might be able to assist you.



If you haven't seen this video, I promise you it will not be a waste of time.

We don't live in ancient times, and I don't think a single respondent to this thread thinks that Satan has anything to do with epilepsy--please point me to a post making that accusation, in case I missed it.

The Brothers Karamazov is a book that was written Dostoyevsky (an epileptic himself) over a hundred and thirty years ago. We've learned a lot since then, you know.

If you don't like or trust his doctors, I'm sorry--I can't help you there. I think most neurologists, particularly those who specialize in epilepsy, are quite dedicated to their work. I don't think most are "quacks." You're entitled to hold that opinion but I believe you're in the minority in that view.

If your son is dealing with uncontrolled seizures, he might want to consider either surgery or looking into the cannabis oil option. I hope he finds the medical assistance he needs--if he is seizing constantly and medication isn't helping, he is in a very small minority of the epileptic population.

nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
210. Well MADem,
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 06:53 PM
Jun 2014

I'm sorry I came on so strong about this. You are not changing my point of view, yet, but you sure make me smile and think about all the times Curtis and I got high and there was never a seizure after that.

His seizures take weeks to happen, but are very intense and last for up to 20 minutes. He turns totally purple and it looks like he's not breathing or getting oxygen. I just don't know wth to do.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
211. PLEASE look at the documentary I provided. PLEASE.
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 06:59 PM
Jun 2014

Curtis will not be happy with the cannabis oil, though--it won't get him high. It doesn't have the "stuff" in it to make that happen. Nothing wrong with doing a little recreational weed on the side, though.

If a little weed helped him, this oil may be able to mitigate his symptoms completely. I urge you to look into it. You have nothing to lose but a few moments of your time, and the fellows who grow the stuff will help with costs if that is an issue.

Please watch the documentary.

nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
212. And I had promised to stay away from Snowden threads,
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 07:09 PM
Jun 2014

in an earlier post but epilepsy is a hot button issue for me."Bad Sobek, bad, bad, bad." (slaps self repeatedly). I'm going to look at the video.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
213. I hope your son finds a solution in it.
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 07:13 PM
Jun 2014

Honestly, if weed helps him, that oil might be the solution. One can hope, and it is worth a try, IMO.

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
220. Cannabis is a prescription medication for certain brain issues
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 09:04 PM
Jun 2014

outside of the U.S. In the U.S., doctors can only "recommend" not prescribe. But it is prescribed for spasticity due to MS in 10 nations, and also for C.P. You can find videos on youtube from American adults who show their "before" and "after" functioning with marijuana.

One mother moved to California to use marijuana for her C.P. because, in the state where she lived, she could've lost custody of her children for doing something that's legally recommended in another.

A lot of adults have done videos that talk about their use of marijuana for epilepsy, too. A small amount of cannabutter in the evening before bed is how one woman talks about controlling her seizures.

If someone is having a seizure, someone else can blow marijuana smoke into that person's mouth or nostrils to try to interrupt a seizure. I know that sounds iffy, but marijuana, at least good marijuana, takes seconds to take effect when inhaled.

I have migraines and, when I start to get into a series of migraines... cannabis stops the nausea and vomiting that are always part of a migraine episode, for me. One doctor calls migraines "electrical storms in your head." That's also a definition of epilepsy - tho the two are different experiences, as far as seizure vs. unrelenting, longterm pain.

But I don't live in a legal state, so I have to forgo cannabis as a legally recommended herb to help deal with unrelenting pain.

...because some in our govt. are stuck in the 1960s and think they are still fighting hippies.

eta - here's the woman I was talking about with CP




grasswire

(50,130 posts)
217. As the parent of an epileptic adult child..
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 08:33 PM
Jun 2014

...I stand with you in solidarity. Having twice resuscitated my own flesh and blood, having spent hours in the ER following various episodes, I know a little bit about what you mean.

My best wishes to you and your son.

nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
224. Thank you for your kindness and understanding.
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 05:47 PM
Jun 2014

In a strange way, my son's epilepsy has drawn us closer together over the past 12 years. We usually hang out together because I constantly worry he will drown in the Snake River where he likes to swim, or have a seizure in one of the far off graveyards where we install headstones for the boss.

I've been told by doctors that seizures can cause irreversible brain damage from just one seizure. I would have to call ourselves lucky that this hasn't happened. He's extremely good with computers, a very high level. This computer we found in a dumpster with Bob Marley stickers all over it. He had it fixed and running good in a week.

One particular seizure happened in the woods, way out in the Idaho wilderness where we were camped. It was a severe seizure and I cried to the heavens for help, a hundred miles from even a shack. Miraculously, some loggers heard me cry for help and within minutes they were there. They had a special phone with a giant antenna and were able to call for help. We weren't alone after all. And I'm not alone on DU it seems either.

JI7

(89,174 posts)
208. this is not true about the 30 year life span, there are exceptions
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 06:38 PM
Jun 2014

but in most cases where person has treatment available they could live full lives .

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