I remember when the United States - at least publicly - was against shadowy state agencies spiriting its citizens off the face of the earth, quite possibly never to be heard from again.

But then, we have also learned a lot since those comparatively innocent days ... and some things were happening under our noses even then.

When such practices became "mainstream" was under Bush II, however, through the thoroughly mislabeled "Patriot Act." The 1st time I really clued in was the 2004 case of Brandon Mayfield. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Mayfield. He was "disappeared" with his family knowing nothing about it; they only learned of the charges from television news.

The FBI swore that his fingerprints were a "100% match" for those on a bag found in Madrid that contained detonating devices even though Spanish authorities had communicated exactly the opposite to them. It was only when the press broke the news that the Spanish authorities had identified the fingerprints as belong to an Algerian national that the FBI finally released him.

The true reason he was arrested was because he was a convert to Islam. It didn't help that he was a lawyer who had had offered legal aid to one of the infamous Portland Seven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Seven) in a child custody battle.

were supposed to do. Now, we seem to be employing the same/similar tactics more and more.

....going from 180 pounds to 95 pounds, and having his gangrenous leg sawed off in a cave in the Philippines for -- he thought -- our freedoms. All that sacrifice, and we end up in a surveillance state bordering on fascism. What a world.

about that.

And to care that this whole report is based on the enthusiasts' tracking of a plane that went to Copenhagen and their assumption that this plane was really after Snowden.

After all, we also forced the landing of a plane carrying the Bolivian president on the possibility (not the likelihood, not the verified fact, but the possibility) that Ed Snowden was on board.

We used to be against that kind of heavy-handed totalitarian police state bullying.

And there is nothing to this report except that a group of anonymous "enthusiasts" think that a plane that went to Copenhagen must have been after Snowden in Russia.

That is an Internet myth

Last edited Sun Jun 15, 2014, 11:54 AM - Edit history (1)

access it at the drop of a hat, and who knows what deal was struck in those years. Do YOU know what deals those two families have going on?

Serious game of pretend you'd have to have going on at this point to claim this isn't real.


http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/moon1.html

http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Moon-Rising-Washington-Religious/dp/0979482232

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/04/bush-sr-celebrate-rev-sun-myung-moon-again

http://freepress.org/article/reverend-moon-cult-leader-cia-asset-and-bush-family-friend-dead

The Moonies would let the CIA torture Snowden on their ranch in SA? Is that the gist of your point?

It must be a very busy job protecting the interests of the Bushes and the Moonies on pages where many people are aware of their 5 decade alliance.

Why would Obama send Snowden to the Moonie ranch? Care to fill in the gaps?

that Bushes were even involved with Rev Moon.

I can understand why you wouldn't want to be responsible for the exchange, but, guess what......you are.

I accept that Bush is linked to the Moonies. What does it have to do with Snowden?

I can understand WHY you still refuse to accept responsibility for our exchange.

What is their connection to Snowden? Why did you introduce the topic to begin with?

was only peaked by your need to defend Bush and then Moonies.

When the exchange proved you didn't do a very good job defending Bush and Moonies, then you tried to make it about Snowden.

I DO understand. And I expect you realize that at this point. And.... if I understand....some others will, too.

It appears completely irrelevant to Snowden.

And YOU apparently were ONLY interested in defending Bush and then Bush-Moon. I sure don't see you popping into any of the exchanges reSnowden in this entire thread. You didn't mention it until you were visibly brushed back on Bush and Moon.

Bushie or Moonie - or both?

One person says Somalia. Another say off to the Bush property. Meanwhile all of it is bullshit not backed up by the article in any way at all. Poor Snowden. How about the top half of him heads to Somalia and the bottom half is delivered by Obama, to Bush, in good old Texas. Maybe a BBQ with Bush and Obama as hosts.

I just posted the Nation article as an example of existing black sites sanctioned by the current Administration that could have been used to imprison, interrogate and torture Snowden should that have been deemed expedient.

That is my point. This is a completely made up conversation started by an article with nothing to back it up. Did you read the article. If you read it, you will find that it truly has NOTHING to do with Snowden. This being referenced to Snowden is nothing more than an exercise of overactive imaginations.

Personally, the fact that Obama continues to allow black sites to operate in Somalia and Afghanistan is just as despicable as the possibility that the NSA was planning on disappearing Snowden.

I can answer that for you. It's not in any way. Please back up your assertion that there is a possibility that the NSA was planning on disappearing Snowden. These are things you are making up completely without any back up.

"I'd say it MIGHT be related to Snowden, but the article isn't conclusive."

Isn't conclusive? You have to be kidding. There is nothing there at all to back up its assertion.

Remember Brandon Mayfield? He was snatched up simply for his willingness to defend "terrorism" suspects in court.

Would the U.S. Government abduct and disappear Snowden if they could? I believe the answer to be "yes."

It is actually hypothetical and baseless.

"Would the U.S. Government abduct and disappear Snowden if they could? I believe the answer to be "yes.""

Once again, nothing in reality backs that up. In any way. What you are trying to say is that if the circumstances were completely different, and what is really happening had not really happened, the government could do this. That is how far this hypothetical has gone.

While Mayfield was held at a private location for a very short period of time, in no way was he taken under the darkness of night and disappeared. His family, friends, and every individual who could read a newspaper knew he was being held by the FBI and what he was being held in connection with. He also received an official apology and a well earned couple of million dollars for the FBI's fuck up. Great cover up when you give the person their day in court, apologize, and then get to go through the courts to get just compensation. That really sounds like he was disappeared. The case also brought about parts of the Patriot Act being struck down as unconstitutional. He in no way disappeared in the middle of the night. Every single person in this world who could read a newspaper knew he was being held by the FBI. His location was not disclosed for a brief period.

Shangria-La!

Who would call the shots and manage a CIA/NSA overlap project, I wonder? James Clapper? The Director of National Intelligence? The man who lied to Congress?

Asking because I have a friend who posts b.s. memes: I try to knock them down, but they're coming from the r/w, no where else. I stopped trying.

who like to track planes. And these anonymous enthusiasts just decided that a plane they tracked to Copenhagen must have something to do with Snowden.

Cuz didn't he scoff at the idea that the 29-year-old hacker was worth snatching?

to take Snowden, especially during the height of the scrutiny, without Obamas approval.

Because if he DIDN'T know, that's actually worse...

If he didn't know, then the rogue agency (agencies) are even more rogue than we thoght.

If he did know, then he fudged.

... The very top. Obama.

And no way was that plane returning Snowden to US soil, where he would have access to an attorney, be under habeas corpus, and have a right to a public trial. Snowden would have been wisked off to a friendly foreign country, like Turkey.

then that is fucking psycho. The good guys, we are not.

Kind of a sickening realization, huh.

US Spy Agency Boasts 'Nothing Is Beyond Our Reach' With New Logo
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024154147

“No, I am not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker,” Obama said. Obama

Nothing was scrambled and there were not jets. Just one jet quietly moved to Europe.

But I did not want to drag the Big Dog into this.

The reason I ask is because all the cases you cite indicate that proper procedures were followed on both ends.

since US Marshals apparently properly return hundreds and hundreds of fugitives to the US each year for prosecution, nor does it seem strange that some DoJ aircraft might regularly be sighted in Europe

Today as I was leaving for a baseball game at 6:30 p.m. I saw airforce one flying into Palm Springs International airport .It was huge,right over my house.It was amazing,even some of my RINO friends in the car were impressed.Great day ..Welcome Mr. President and Michelle !

Blank

There are a number of posters that like to create sock puppets and disrupt discussions of Snowden. I misread your intentions.

N977GA has a chequered history. It was originally ordered by the US Air Force for use as a general's flying gin-palace. But then, shortly after 9/11, it lost its military livery and acquired civilian registration as N596GA. Under that designation it was employed in CIA "renditions" - or kidnappings. In 2011, the "black" jet switched roles again, transferring from the CIA's contractor to use instead by the Department of Justice (DoJ).

With its new tail number N977GA the plane became part of the Justice Prisoner and Alien Transportation Systems (JPATS), operated by US Marshals. On perhaps its best-known mission, the jet flew a team of marshals into the UK on 5 October 2012 to collect radical cleric Abu Hamza after the USA won an extradition order against him.

This still has a good chance of not ending well for him. Blowing the whistle against our spy organization can be hazardous to your health, yet he did it anyway. His motive, whether patriotic, thrill seeking, money, or some of all doesn't really matter in the big picture. It is what he has/is being released that reveals drastic, un-constitutional invasion of privacy. This information is too tempting for them to give up, so they demonize Snowden to distract attention and we want to shoot the messenger, literally!

I think it's important. I will link back to this thread.

Like when do government agencies do things like this

Manassas Regional Airport discreetly offers its clients "the personal accommodations and amenities you can't find at commercial airports"

If they act and work in the same trappings of the things they are supposed to regulating who do you think they are really working for, the people? Pay your taxes to support your favorite oil company and it's extractions

Looking at the way things are done rather than what they say are doing, can tell you a lot

Here's the same tracking website showing a similar flight of the same plane from DC to London on 2 June 2014

Here's another tracking webpage reporting the same plane at the Mildenhall base on 6 October 2013 and in Berlin on 6 June 2013

Here's a page showing it was in Dublin 12-14 June 2013

Here's a page showing it in Dublin 16 February 2012

Rendition jets ought to be faced with the glare of attention.

Lots of stuff about various extraordinary rendition jets.

"extraordinary" in this usage means "illegal."

Rather than diffusing the apprehension, you've only created more questions.

What is this aircraft doing when it makes these trips to different parts of Europe?

Romania, for example.

the F16 or whatever is the new fighter jet. So, thank goodness for some on this site, the POTUS didn't lie.

Such an amazing and entirely coincidental influx of new posters
DU is truly blessed.

It is funny how it fits so many posters here on DU. Yes, DU is truly blessed.

I downloaded the file to finish later. Quite an interesting read. Thanks for the link.

But don't let that slow down your hate...

Wouldn't Moscow be the place to go?

Or was there some kind of Black Ops team who were going to supposedly kidnap Snowden and smuggle him to Copenhagen somehow?

Could have been standing by in England or something, waiting to rendevoux with agents holding Snowden.

Apparently, this plane is so powerful it can teleport people from Moscow to Copenhagen!!!!!

The article fails to demonstrate anything other than the plane flew to Europe. There's people in Europe other than Snowden. And as a post in this thread demonstrates, this plane has been detected in Europe the same way several times.

Go ahead.

Go ahead.

if you're keeping an open mind.

By which I mean this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4369504

I offer you this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-officials-scrambling-to-nab-snowden-hoped-he-would-take-a-wrong-step-he-didnt/2014/06/14/057a1ed2-f1ae-11e3-bf76-447a5df6411f_story.html

The burst of activity during that period — including the White House meetings, a broad diplomatic scramble and the decision to force a foreign leader’s plane to land — was far more extensive than U.S. officials acknowledged at the time.

This is CT territory!

hoping to find Snowden on board. Of course being a smart guy Snowden KNEW not to fly over any NATO country or allied country which could be 'enticed' into handing him over.

Hong Kong was asked to hand him over and refused, thankfully. They sent him on his way to his next stopover, which was Russia. The US threw a hissy fit and rescinded his passport which forced him to remain in Russia.

Most odd to those of us who believe in Democracy is the lack of investigations into the crimes so many Whistles Blowers have now exposed going back to 2001. Not a single criminal has gone to prison for the massive crimes that have been exposed.

I guess at one time we thought that electing Democrats would finally begin the process of investigating and prosecuting those who have systematically broken OUR and INTERNATIONAL laws for over a decade now.

But that hope is gone.

However we do know that there are still good people within our system still trying to stop the systematic destruction of our rights and still have hope that one day, that 'Ghost Plane' will be waiting to pick up the real crooks, not those who expose them.

Yet it was supposedly sent for Snowden.

This article is utter crap with zero evidence to back up it's primary claim.

As is your post.

There are NATO air bases in the Baltics, which are several hundred miles closer to Moscow than Copenhagen, which is 1000 miles away.

Riga, Latvia, for instance, is only 525 miles.

But also entertaining.

One could easily draw the conclusion that people who buy it want to buy it so they can find fault with the administration.

If the allegation is against the NSA and supports the preconceived motions, that's all that is needed.

underneath it all is a need/wanting to believe it.

The linked article is a virtual goldmine of information.

"... according to our source, a member of an internet aircraft-tracking network run by enthusiasts in the UK ..."

Surely you're not going to argue with rock-solid sources like an unidentified "enthusiast" who tracks aircraft traffic on his computer?

"The online tracking information reveals that the Gulfstream did not make it all the way to Moscow, but set down and waited at Copenhagen Airport."

There you have - proof positive that the flight was headed to Moscow, because the article clearly states that it "didn't make it all the way". I suppose you'd prefer to believe some crackpot theory that the plane landed in Copenhagen because that's where it was headed the whole time. How gullible can you get?

"According to Mr Snowden's colleagues, if the Russians knew that an American team was on its way to bring him home, they did not warn him."

Again I will assume that you believe no one was 'warned' of this plot simply because no such plot existed. Your naivete is astounding. Everyone knows that if no one is warning you of something, it is irrefutable evidence that something is going on that no one knows about.

"The US Department of Justice did not respond to our requests for information regarding N977GA and its purpose in heading to Europe on 24 June last year."

What possible excuse could the DoJ have for not responding to a 'journalist' who has exposed their nefarious plot, supported by such an array of overwhelmingly undeniable facts?

If the DoJ has nothing to hide, a full and complete answer to each and every crackpot who contacts them should be the norm. The fact that they refused to reply to Mr. Campbell's demand for particulars serves as just another stunning example of the entire department's 'excuse' that they have better things to do.

Hopefully, Mr. Campbell will persist in getting to the bottom of this story. Perhaps he should mention his source, "enthusiast", the next time he approaches the DoJ. Once they realize he's willing to name non-names, they can't help but be convinced that he knows people who know things - and can prove that things that never happened are actually a cover-up of things that never happened.

If you can't be bothered to proudly wear the official hat, Steven, you'll never be a journalist of Duncan Campbell's stature.

as ridiculous as one could get on DU - but that was before I saw the follow-up OP - which started with:

"We now know that a DoJ jet flew from Manassas Airport to Copenhagen at 45,000 feet on September 24 with no flight plan on file, allegedly to intercept Edward Snowden."

In other words, we now KNOW something that ALLEGEDLY happened. But let's just accept the "alleged" part as being factual, and DEMAND some answers!

"Did Obama not know about the rendition flight? If not, under whose orders did that flight take place?"

Yeah, Obama - 'fess up. Why did you NOT know about something that never happened? Under whose orders did that something that never happened take place? What other things that never happened are you trying to cover up?

"I'm not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker."

Could it be more obvious that Obama was blatantly contradicting himself by saying he wouldn't be 'scrambling jets' when a jet was apparently so 'scrambled', it landed in Copenhagen instead of Moscow?

What seems obvious here is that the brigade honestly think that the word "alleged" means that which has been proven to be a fact, and opine accordingly.

Face it, Steven - you're just dismissing completely believable tinfoil hattery out of journalistic jealousy - you can't forgive yourself for not getting to "a member of an internet aircraft-tracking network run by enthusiasts in the UK" first.

Guess your journalistic endeavours will have to continue to rely on things like facts. That's something that may play well in the sticks, but this is Capital DU City, where baseless allegations trump mere facts every time!

After all, a black ops jet known for past renditions just flew willy nilly at random across the Atlantic Ocean for no particular reason. Pure coincidence that Snowden happened to be looking to leave Russia at the time.

Maybe a jet took off from a US airport and it WASN'T random, it WASN'T willy-nilly, and it actually HAD a reason for doing so that had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SNOWDEN.

I only raise the point because I have an unimpeachable source (who must remain unidentified - let's just call him an internet aircraft-tracking enthusiast) who tells me that thousands of planes take off and land every day at airports all over the world, and even he admits that at least some of those flights have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SNOWDEN - even if it's just a handful of flights, at best.

Just as an aside, I think Skinner has been wasting his time with the "Impeach Obama" ads that run on this site. If he really wants some clicks on the ads, he should find companies that sell tinfoil hats for the "I believe every crackpot theory I read on the internetz" folks. That would generate some real revenue.

Yes, the very fact they deny the conspiracy means it is on! And that the usual authoritarians are here in the thread actually doubting the unidentified enthusiast.

But the headline is just dumb.

Interesting stuff there.

Snowden who has lied on several occasions?