General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow many people feel a 10-year-old is responsible enough....
... to care for a five-year-old sibling overnight, alone?
Given how many people here denigrate the Duggars and other Quiverfull families for making children take on responsibility way too early, I'm astonished at some of the vitriol directed at a person who felt that leaving these children alone overnight was neglectful enough to warrant engaging authorities. I did a lot at age 10 -- I rode public buses alone to get to school and to my grandparents' house, I let myself in to wait for my mother to get home from work, and I even babysat a younger child for a few hours occasionally with my grandmother actively supervising me (as preparation for babysitting as a teenager). But my mother NEVER left me alone overnight at that age, even for a few hours. Even when she took a night job on the weekends the summer I turned 10, she made sure my 19-year-old sister was there.
Here are some guidelines from different states about when the law says a kid can be left alone:
http://www.imom.com/parenting/tikes/parenting/safety/home-alone-rules-by-state/
As an example: in Georgia, leaving a five year old child with a 10-year-old, even for an hour, is child neglect. They do not consider a 10-year-old to be a capable babysitter. They feel 8 is old enough to be a latchkey kid, but 13-and-up to babysit a child under 8. And 15 and up to be left alone overnight, by themselves or with another child.
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Does this suck for parents who are struggling the best they can and having to work an odd schedule to support their family? Of course it does. The single moms I knew who were on graveyard had relatives taking care of their children while they were working -- it must be terrible to have no family to help.
But it's unacceptable to leave a child alone in that situation in my opinion, and if I'd been made aware of such a situation happening, I'd be obligated to report it to the proper authorities. It's called being a mandated reporter.
Mandated reporting laws are in place so that hopefully *someone* will report abuse and neglect -- not that we are the only people who have a moral responsibility to report.
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Added "Depends" and "Other"
36 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited | |
A 10-year-old should not be left by themselves, period. | |
11 (31%) |
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A 10-year-old could be left by themselves during daylight or early evening hours, but not overnight or as a babysitter. | |
2 (6%) |
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A 10-year-old is capable of being a babysitter to a younger sibling for a few hours, but not overnight. | |
2 (6%) |
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A 10-year-old is capable of being a babysitter to a younger sibling overnight. | |
2 (6%) |
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Depends on the 10-year-old | |
19 (53%) |
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Other | |
0 (0%) |
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0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll |
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)they are better off in this situation than in the foster parent situation.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)and my sister was 4.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)I was fully able to care for my cousin at 10. My brother babysat me at 10. My son? I wouldn't have done that when he was 10. See?
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)and what rises to negligence and requires a report to the police.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,272 posts)Hopefully the slumlord has working fire alarms and locks on the doors.
JI7
(89,180 posts)should be called on them .
moriah
(8,311 posts)So if the roommate had not been there, it certainly would have risen to the level of a felony, and if the roommate testifies that the kids have been left alone that long before....
http://www.illinoislegalaid.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.dsp_content&contentID=5701
It's better the kids go in foster care where they face a very good chance of being beaten or sexually abused? Smoking dope is against the law too. How many people here call the cops on their neighbors over that?
moriah
(8,311 posts).... there's no doubt I'd be reporting that neighbor.
The fact this woman was working, not off smoking dope, is why my first reaction was that a "Come to Jesus" talk about the lack of supervision for the kids and lack of hot water in the house was in order before the report, but apparently the OP had already done that and more before calling the police. A landlord isn't supposed to be your social worker.
Hopefully Illinois will be able to get a social worker working on the applications for LIHEAP for the gas so they have hot water to bathe in, and maybe they will do the math and figure out a way for her to survive without the graveyard shift differential. But if you think it's the moral thing to do to stand back and do nothing when children are being neglected.... I don't get it, but I'm glad you aren't legally required to report against your conscience.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)because the reasons she gives for calling the cops have to do with her nosy judgments about the woman's parenting and the fact the mother won't hand over the 5 yr old to her (the OP completely ignores the existence of the 10 yr old, whom apparently she has no interest in) while she IS HOME, not while she is working.
If I thought the kids were in danger, I would call, but not because I was upset the five year old couldn't come out into the garden with me, because I didn't like the school they go to, that I didn't like the shades drawn or that the kid watches PBS. None of that is illegal. Also take note that when she called the cops thinking the kids were alone, they were actually being supervised by an adult. The Op didn't get the results she wanted after first calling the cops, so called again as soon as the roommate left the house, like she couldn't wait to cause the woman pain. At one point she says the woman should learn a lesson to listen to her from now on. It's not simply a concern for legal neglect.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... to leave the kids alone all night.
I'm not judging the mother for refusing the landlord as a babysitter. I was one of those kids that seemed to attract lots of "aunts" and "grandmas", and it weirded Mom out for people to take such an interest in her child. Luckily none were creeps, just very caring people. Now, personally, I'd have enrolled a child in Head Start or another program ASAP if I were in that parent's situation, but that's just me -- and not neglect to choose differently.
But no hot water to take baths with for months, and no supervision overnight? Doesn't matter if somehow the kids were eating steak and lobster and going to private school, those two are not cool. (Edit to add: the criticism of microwave cuisine seemed a touch spurious as well, and that was in the OP. At least there is food in the house.)
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)yet there's a roommate and she was 'surprised' at least once that the roommate was there because she was sure the roommate wasn't. Maybe the roommate is there during the night. Maybe she has someone come in. How does the landlord know if no one is there all night every night? Does she stay awake all night to see if anyone is coming and going? Her story is all over the place.
BTW...I once lived in a small 2 bdrm apartment with my 3 kids (and at the time, husband) while our house was being built and the hot water tank cratered. It took the landlord 3 weeks to get the stupid thing repaired. What did we do in the meantime? We boiled water and had hot baths. Is this woman incapable of boiling water to give her kids hot baths? Even if no stove, you can boil water in the microwave, or with an electric kettle. I really don't get how no hot water = must remove kids. A little OTT.
JI7
(89,180 posts)she talks about how she tried to help by giving the 5 year old books which the mother refuses.
but SHE could pay for the utilities without even the mother knowing about it since it's her property. that would be the first thing i would do if i was a landlord and worried about the family.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)A meddling landlord who needs to find something better to do than sticking her nose in other peoples business. Her statements show that the story is not clear..too wishy washy and changes through the thread.
moriah
(8,311 posts)According to the OP, the roommate backed up that the children were being routinely left alone overnight, just not that night. And of course we're going by what she's saying. If you don't find her credible, fine. There's been a lot of personal attacks against that lady, which is why I tried to bring this somewhat out of the ballpark of "okay you think this landlord sucks" into "if the situation was such, is this child neglect?"
In my opinion, it is not right to leave a 10-year-old alone overnight, let alone leave them supervising a younger sibling alone for that period of time. In Illinois, it's criminal. And if I'd been in that lady's shoes and been aware of a situation that was legally classified as neglect or abuse, I would be required to report it and let the system sort it out, regardless of my own personal judgment.
JI7
(89,180 posts)moriah
(8,311 posts)She works on the graveyard for the shift differential. Which means that she could switch to another shift, if enough resources were gathered to make the transition. Five-year-old goes to Head Start/other free childcare in the daytime, 10-year-old is in school and probably capable of being latchkey, and the mom is home during the overnight hours and is able to get the kids both to sleep and to school herself.
Why can't you see that this family is in desperate need of a social worker's intervention if she's leaving two kids under 10 home alone overnight?
gollygee
(22,336 posts)You show she could have childcare if she worked the right shift for it, but her reality is her reality. People don't just get to decide what shift to work.
moriah
(8,311 posts)Which means she probably can't make it without that premium, and isn't really making it now.
That's why she needed services. They can do emergency financial assistance. They can get a person moved up on the list for housing assistance. Only 5% of kids reported for abuse or neglect are removed from homes by Chicago's DCFS. The others receive supportive services to try to help them out of those tough situations. That's what social workers are for, and now one will get involved in this case. (Check out the Mandated Reporter manual, it's rather interesting).
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)and behavior that comes across as creepy.
Also, she met any requirements to report the first time she called the police. Conspiring with the roommate to attempt to "catch" the women was unnecessary -- and failed, since it is not illegal in Ill to have a 10 year old babysit for an hour.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)and tenants have some rights to privacy as well as rights concerning their children.
This landlord, who is supposedly very busy with her own business, knows entirely too much about this tenants' business. To the point that she's coming across as Mrs. Kravitz, only worse. Personally, I find the landlord's microfarm admirable and adorable. But her tenant has a right not to be enamored of the farm, not to be enamored of the landlord, and to simply want to focus on getting her family situation square again.
She cannot do that with a meddling busybody who is using the position of landlord as an opportunity to spy on her, criticize her every decision and then conspire against the tenant with the tenant's roommate.
The landlord has a litany of personal complaints and criticism about the tenant that are, quite frankly, not the landlord's business.
The landlord also has contradicted herself repeatedly, which makes all her claims questionable.
She rented really to the 5 year old?
The mother won't let the 5 year old "hang" with her.
The mother calls the landlord "mother" and the 5 year old calls her "grandmother"
The mother leaves the 5 year old alone for an hour. The mother leaves the 5 year old alone overnight. The mother's roommate is there overnight. The mother's roommate is not there over night. The 10 year old sibling is there.
The 5 year old should be in preschool, was in preschool, is in preschool but not one the landlord approves of.
The 5 year old is watching "stale pbs" on tv while the mother sleeps.
The mother hugged the landlord after she screamed at her about the gas.
It "cheeses" the landlord that the mother sleeps after working overnight. But she's not angry that the mother sleeps. It just "cheeses" her, whatever that means.
The 5 year old shouldn't be inside with her mother and sibling, but should be in the garden with the landlord. Who doesn't really have time to babysit the 5 year old, but the 5 year old (who is apparently the main reason she accepted this tenant) should be "hanging" with the landlord.
The mother cooks with a microwave.
The mother keeps her curtains closed. (no effing wonder)
And calling the police on the mother for abandonment, only to find the roommate was there, and so conspiring with the roommate to be able to call the police when the 10 year old was babysitting for an hour? Wow.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)On whether 10 is included in 7-10 or 10-13. A 7-year-old is much less mature than a 10-year-old. The 10 might be in both so there can be judgement about how mature that particular 10-year-old is.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)clearly, there are some that think the potential of the children entering the foster care system is the best choice
It isn't ideal, but in most cases it's going to be better than foster care.
JI7
(89,180 posts)the duggars have 19 kids. this mother we are talking about only has 2 .
moriah
(8,311 posts)In the Duggar's case, none of the kids are being left unsupervised for hours overnight, either. Just being forced to be "little mother" when they should not be saddled with such responsibility. Since the younger kids aren't being neglected, naturally, no, we're not calling for CPS to come after them.
In this case, both of the children are being abandoned under Illinois statutory law if they were left overnight (8 hours or more). That carries a year in prison. I think the OP was fooling herself by thinking this couldn't lead to a foster care situation if the mother does not work with the system, but it doesn't mean she was wrong to report feloniously neglectful behavior.
JI7
(89,180 posts)boston bean
(36,186 posts)living with complete strangers who draw a pay check for just being there when you are home.
You want to think about the kids, think about that as well, along with all the reasons the mother is having difficulty and doing the best she can.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Five nights a week. It wasn't a huge deal, to be honest. We had a phone, knew which neighbors to go talk to in an emergency.
Until I was able to watch my younger sister our single dad had to work two jobs- one to pay for childcare and one to pay for everything else. Me being able to tend my sister meant we got to actually interact with our parent. It was a worthwhile tradeoff.
We came out fine. Nothing bad happened. The end.
Uncle Joe
(58,112 posts)mom worked night shift, she couldn't afford a babysitter.
I looked after my two younger brothers for years, 6 nights a week, I did get an extra few dollars in my allowance.
It worked fine for us but I'm sure in some cases it may not, all depending on the situation.
Thanks for the thread, moriah.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)One of whom had special needs. No one would have dreamed of calling the cops.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)small children than some of the older children when they get interested in boys.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)moriah
(8,311 posts)My mother had her parents to rely on, and I was nine years younger than my sister, so she did a lot of babysitting. Starting at far too young of an age, because while my Dad was in the picture he wasn't the most supervisory parent and Mom worked on the road to support the family. We moved in with my grandparents just before I turned 3 and my sister turned 12, so it took a lot of the burden off of her shoulders and she could actually be a kid herself.
There's a reason she has no desire to have children now -- she was forced to take care of me, she already put in her time.
Obviously the woman the other thread was about had no such safety net to help out. And that's where the system is designed to come in.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)I had similar good fortune, having a grandmother and great-grandmother in a house that could fit my parents and I those first few broke years
treestar
(82,383 posts)In this day and age.
It is odd to have no family or friends though. None at all. But then that is where social services could help.
People were ragging on the OP who was willing to help, too. Maybe the mother doesn't like that OP, so fine, but does that mother get along with anyone? Why doesn't she have any friends who could take the kids overnight? If she is separated by distance from her family.
Maybe moving in with another family might help. It was said she had a roommate, but apparently that roommate's schedule didn't allow for full coverage of the kids either.
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)Some can act responsibly and probably could take care of a younger sibling for just a few hours (not overnight). Other 10 year olds are completely irresponsible and can't be trusted. Back in the 1950s when my career Air Force dad was stationed in Germany, my friends and I would go exploring the woods for hours at a time or go to the base movie theater unaccompanied at night to see great first run films of the time like Them or The Beast From 20,000 Fathoms. I was six years old. My eight year old friend would bring along and supervise his six year old brother. Nothing ever happened but maybe the world has really changed.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)My feeling is never overnight, but my feelings go no further than myself. No one can generalize a rule that covers the population in such a case. Such hard choices we are forced to make would be so unnecessary if we had a working government with working systems for its peoples welfare.
littlemissmartypants
(22,418 posts)"Babysit" an infant while the parents went out to a dinner. I don't know how I was at nine. I remember crocheting the entire time. I'm thinking I might have been terrified. Grown-ups can be stupid and scary sometimes. The child and I survived.
Love, Peace and Shelter. Lmsp
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)My father abandoned us and my mom took an overnight job AND went back to school. I basically did everything for two years while my mom either worked, went to school or slept - including mowing the lawn and cleaning the house.
We ate a lot of "easy" dinners - tuna, pb and j, bologna sandwiches, canned soup, fruit, salad, grilled cheese in a toaster oven, cereal, cookies, etc. - pretty much anything a 10 year old can cope with putting together without operating a stove (no microwave at the time).
I remember feeling pretty proud of "helping" and being called upon by my mom to help her.
Oh. And this was Illinois. And we had the heat turned off several times because we were so broke.
As soon as she finished her degree when I was 12, our lives normalized when she quit the overnight shift and became the "mom" again. We believed it was a short term problem and so we just dug in and coped.
I can't imagine how differently our lives would have been if someone had called the cops or DCFS... Our neighbors all knew about it and instead of calling in the authorities, they simply helped. They brought over food, one neighbor would help by cutting the grass occasionally, they would have certainly stepped in for any emergency... but they respected my mom's intense pain, pride and desire to get her degree and let her call the shots on what was happening.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)just a few houses away and available on the telephone. The mother was just desperate to have someone watch her child. It wasn't difficult. The baby slept most of the time, and someone came after a while to relieve me.
I just loved taking care of children and was good at it. Back then, children were given more responsibility than they are today.
As I recall my sister and I had our first job for pay when I was seven. We delivered advertising cards to what seemed like a lot of houses in the small town in which we lived and were paid a quarter. It was a different time. Things seemed much safer. Whether they were or not I do not know.
So I voted that it depends on the 10-year-old.
moriah
(8,311 posts)When it was a toddler, I was with Granny at her house. When it was the 6-year-old down the street, I "babysat" her while her mother ran errands down at their house, but I was within shouting distance, literally. I took a babysitting certification course at that age, too.
But given that I had parents permissive enough to let me ride public transportation (in a town that had the highest murder rate per capita in the US at that time) by myself at 10, I wasn't sure how many people on here would agree that my mother had been entirely responsible either.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I just cannot pass a small child without trying to give the mother a bit of a morale boost by complementing her on her child.
Moms need help, not criticism. But the children come first. It is very hard for a child to overcome child abuse.
I was lucky because my mom had studied child development and trained me to understand how to take care of children in a positive way.
I would be more concerned if the child being taken care of was two or three years old. That's a tough age, but five-year-olds want to please -- usually. There are exceptions.
I found with my chldren that five was the easiest age ever. Maybe it was my children.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)All the sympathy went with the "mother" and virtually no one thought about the children. I see nothing has changed in 50 years -- the sympathy STILL goes with the "parent" and the children are left to fend for themselves. I especially liked the part where the 10-year-old has to get the 5-year-old ready for school. Truly? I don't give a shit about the "mother." She chose to have the children, it's up to her not to neglect them. I don't give a shit what her situation is, her primary responsibility after she CHOSE to be a parent -- TWICE -- is to take care of her own children. If she can't manage it, then she needs to give them over to someone who does care about them, will love them, take care of them and not neglect them. I also noticed no one mentioned how she treats them in that her communication with them consists of "don't don't don't don't." ALL of that was ignored to rag on the poster. I have first-hand experience with this and know that, just because you spit 'em out doesn't make you a parent.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)or dies, they should lose their kids too?
moriah
(8,311 posts)I know many single parents, some who work or have worked graveyard. None who think leaving their 10-year-old alone overnight, let alone in charge of a 5-year-old by himself for that long, is kosher.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)its damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Not everyone has family, friends, or good neighbors that are trustworthy and reliable enough to watch their kids at all times possible when they have to work. Particularly for the working poor, who quickly become the unemployed poor when schedules conflict between watching their kids and having to go to work.
It seems like the choice is to have your kids taken away from you because you have to go to work, or taken away from you because you can't afford to feed them or provide them shelter.
ON EDIT: And, I don't understand the issue with the 10 year old babysitting the 5 year old, I watched my little sister at that age, not all the time, but usually for at least a few hours a day, even a couple of times overnight.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)When there are two adults, struggling families often take jobs on different shifts. When there's only one adult there are often no good choices. And BTW, the mother in the other thread working graveyard shift may not be doing it for a shift differential. It may be the only shift available.
Ten is young for the responsibility of caring for one's self, let alone younger siblings but the reality is there are many children put in that situation by dire family circumstances. I grew up in a very low income community and there were many kids left alone at night while parents worked at low wage jobs because that's all they could find for work. None of those parents thought it was ideal. It just was the best they could make of the situation.
840high
(17,196 posts)JI7
(89,180 posts)worse for them. this is a case of a family that is poor and trying to get by .
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)That's what I see.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)JI7
(89,180 posts)to provide for them and to keep them away from creepy people.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... who breaks in because they, too, have observed that there are children there alone overnight?
JI7
(89,180 posts)about it as a concern without insisting YOU be the one to watch just one of the kids.
djean111
(14,255 posts)foster care system can be horrendous.
Both sides are being judgmental with very little information to go on - the information we have has been presented by the person who called the cops, so a little vested interest there.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)be left home alone. NEVER. Period. That's not "judgmental," that's common sense. And not all CPS systems are Florida, some actually work just fine. I've seen it.
hexola
(4,835 posts)I see these kids pulling the manure spreader...and using big farm machinery doing other farm work.
Even little ones on the riding mower...push mower.
All unsupervised...I'm sure some people would be very alarmed by the sight.
But I would defend their cultural right to live as they like...clearly a strong work ethic there!
So - its up to the parents - which is a variant on "It depends on the 10 year old"
Exposing children to risk - I see it as a parental discretion issue...its up to them.
If someone can show endangerment...fine, but merely leaving a child alone does not meet that level.
Now if you leave a child alone in a home with a boa constrictor, a machine gun, and box of matches...that's different!!!
moriah
(8,311 posts)Is a 10-year-old capable of calling Poison Control? Evacuating his little brother from the house if there was a fire? Calling 911 and keeping his little brother quiet while they hide from a robber?
Even if that particular 10-year-old is capable of it, *should* they be forced into that role so young?
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)I remember being given a list of phone numbers the call in case of emergency, the most obvious being 911, but also included poison control. Our family also had a clear evacuation plan in case of fire, but we are also unusual in that, back when I was 4 years old, our townhouse burned on the inside, we barely made it out with our lives. Since then, my parents were always what you would call crazy prepared for house fires, and made sure us kids were well aware of what to do.
Response to hexola (Reply #33)
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treestar
(82,383 posts)about farming. And the whole village looks after the children. Our society is quite different. It takes longer and longer to be grown up and responsible. Not entirely a bad thing.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)If you have neighbors right next door that are like family that they can call in an emergency who know that you will be gone it is like leaving them with family.
djean111
(14,255 posts)time.
TBF
(31,922 posts)next door neighbor is like family. My mature tween has no issue and has a cell phone. My younger one may be 15 before I leave him alone ... It all depends upon the kid.
Short periods of time though - not watching other kids & not overnight.
I think it would also whether it was in a pinch or a regular thing. Obviously more supervision is ideal especially on a regular basis.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)I lived through it with no mishaps. From reading above many others did as well.
We had the number for my mothers work. She worked at an answering service, so we could get a hold of her quickly.
I am not going to pretend it was great my brothers and I survived it. I am quite sure I would not have liked being visited by the cops and
definitely would not have preferred to be taken from my home.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)at any time. What a strange coincidence they both worked the same job...
My mom also worked within walking distance of our house
Before I go into explaining why, I want to say I think this is a worthwhile conversation to have. It's probably more common then people think in the US. I personally experienced a similar situation (though my mother worked during the day) as I was about the same age (maybe a year older) and had to take care of my younger brother. Both of our childhood's were fucked up. I was a good student in high school and eventually graduated college. I can't say the same for my brother unfortunately. He got the raw end of the deal being so young. This is obviously leaving out a lot of details that I won't get into since it's personal.
I personally don't think a 10 year old is mature enough to take care of a sibling unattended. Helping around the house in general is one thing, but being in charge, no. I can only give my opinion as someone who went through something similar. My childhood had a profound affect on me and influenced my own choice to be a parent.
Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)It happened when a friend of mine with older kids (one was 10 and the other 6) who had separated from her husband wanted to have a night out. I said I couldn't go because my usual babysitters weren't available that night. So she suggests I leave my toddler at her place overnight with her two kids. And when I asked who was looking after them, she told me the 10 year old was. No way. I may have been struggling and a single mum, but I sure as hell wasn't stupid or a bad mum. I would never ever have left my child in a situation like that overnight...
pnwmom
(108,925 posts)You could stay home from the night out but this woman had to go to work and doesn't seem to have other good options.
Plus, we know that the OP was wrong about the roommate being gone that night. Maybe she was wrong about the roommate usually being gone.
Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)Nope. I did used to do a cleaning job in the late evenings when my daughter was really little. I hated it but it made ends meet. I had her babysat by an adult and when they couldn't do it, I didn't work. I would never have left her with a ten year old and would have chosen not to work if I had a job that meant I had to leave her at home by herself or in the care of a child overnight...
JI7
(89,180 posts)pnwmom
(108,925 posts)to go partying?
You didn't say that you did . . . and yet you're supporting the OP who turned in a mother because she left her children, ages 10 and 5, to go to work.
I don't get it.
Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)Because she didn't end up going, but hell, she thought and said it, so that's clearly what matters...
pnwmom
(108,925 posts)But reporting her to the real police and real social services could have had unanticipated negative consequences for the children.
JI7
(89,180 posts)so it looked like she was fine with the 10 year old being alone.
and there was the stuff about how the kid didn't go to school, but actually did go somewhere and then the complaint was about where the school was.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... from what I read.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094332
Hence then later the mentions of the school being so far away. If she's leaving the younger child alone to take the older child to school, it doesn't meet the Illinois definition of felony abandonment, but I don't think it's cool to leave a five year old alone at all.
moriah
(8,311 posts)If the allegations are correct, though, the situation has reached a criminal level of neglect, and the family needs services desperately.
JI7
(89,180 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)But they are if it's for work?
JI7
(89,180 posts)when one is poor you usually don't have many choices . and often it's about doing what is the least bad rather than between good and bad.
Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)But I made the decision when I had my daughter that she came first above everything else, including jobs. I don't know if the US has a safety net like here for sole parents so families aren't out on the street if the parent isn't working, but I was on what was then the sole parent pension on and off between jobs. If I'd ever been in a job where I had to work night shift and had no-one reliable and well over the age of ten to stay with my child, I'd have given up the job. Childcare's really expensive, and I'm assuming even more expensive in the US, so people should be trying to get childcare costs for parents set at a reasonable level...
JI7
(89,180 posts)as they are now when you consider the options we have .
there have been a few cases of children being killed and missing in the foster care system.
things are just different in the US. there are more protections for gun owners than for children.
pnwmom
(108,925 posts)and after that a family could be out on the street and/or the parent could lose custody.
Progressives do push for state funded childcare, but it's an uphill battle, like everything else.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)there is "help" but its usually limited, only for a limited amount of time, or has strings attached, such as working so many hours a week.
Even having kids to take care of doesn't make you exempt from this. Some states offer subsidized child care or day care, but the hours for such facilities are usually extremely limited, rarely overnight, for example, so may not be practical, and its generally not free at service, but costs just slightly less than going full private day care.
Food Stamps, which is nutritional assistance, is only a supplement, its never enough to provide full nutritional needs for a family.
Section 8, which is subsidized housing, has a huge backlog in many places, and only a few people qualify for a 100% subsidy, there are waiting lists for going in that last for months if not years.
So our social safety nets, what do exist, suck, are extremely inadequate to address the needs of those in need, and every time a conversation arises to try to fix them to help more people, its shouted down by both the center and the right for helping the lazy and unproductive. Hell, bringing up that these programs exists runs the risk of legislatures putting them in their sights for cuts.
ON EDIT: The only exceptions to my subject line are if you worked long enough to build up a good enough Social Security payout, and either are retired or disabled. Even then, you may still end up homeless if the benefit is too small.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)From the thread this is based on, it appears the mother attempted to have room-mates to be in the apartment when she worked. This is a horrible situation for the kids; however, our foster care system can be even more horrible.
It is not as if when the police are called (and the DSS gets involved) that services will suddenly become available to the family ... there is a very real risk of these children being removed from the home (at least temporarily)
gollygee
(22,336 posts)go out to the bar.
I imagine she's thinking, "I need this job so we don't end up homeless. But I can't afford childcare or we won't be able to pay our bills and will still end up homeless." If the choice is leaving the kids home together, or becoming homeless, it's in the kids' best interest to be left home together. If the choice is between leaving the kids home together, or going out to have fun, it's in the kids' best interest to not go have fun.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)across the street from me. It was a few days after Christmas and the dad was out, well, philandering, he did a lot of that, and the young mom was home with several small chidren, one of whom lit the place on fire. I woke up and saw an orange glow on the ceiling and after figuring out it wasn't my Christmas lights called the FD.
Well it turns out the family hadn't called because the cell phone batteries were dead, and the place was a total loss, also uninsured, as grandma had just made the last mortgage payment on the old pile and let it lapse. Sad story. A son in Arizona owned the deed and sold the lot to a developer who put up a duplex and now the same family is back renting, in a slightly different configuration, without the philandering dad or matchbook lad who seem to be residing elsewhere.
So the moral of the story I guess is that kids play with matches, and some are more playful than others. This boy was about 7 or 8 as I recall. Everybody got out safely incidentally including the dogs.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... because the cause of a fire (for which she was heroically able to get all the kids to safety) was the 5-year-old playing with a lighter.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)the other OP mentioned no gas and while summer might not be a problem it would be concerning to leave two small kids in an unheated apartment overnight in the winter.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)There's a big difference between those ages. 7-year-olds are fascinated by fire, and if the original thread had been about a 5-year-old and a 7-year-old being left alone together, I (and I bet a lot of other posters) would have responded differently to it.
I would never have left my 7-year-old alone at all, but by 10 if she had a phone on her I'd run to the grocery store without her. She was fine. I wouldn't have left her to babysit my younger kid, but I have money and am not faced with the tough choice of "go to work and keep my home" or "pay childcare and not have enough money to keep myself and my kids off the streets" or "give the kid my phone number and have him call if there's a problem."
Exposethefrauds
(531 posts)moriah
(8,311 posts)Children aren't their parents property. They have rights, and I believe society has a duty to protect those rights.
Exposethefrauds
(531 posts)As for your new question the answer would still be the same as long as we has free 24/7 quality childcare available to all.
If we, as a society, want to really do something for the kids then we have to provide free 24/7 quality childcare so the people will be free to choose the path in life that suites their choices, needs and situation.
Otherwise we have what we have now and that is not working.
moriah
(8,311 posts)That's essentially saying children are the property of their parents.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)as asked by the OP?
moriah
(8,311 posts)I wanted to hear what people felt a 10-year-old was capable of themselves, and to the degrees -- some wouldn't leave their 10-year-olds alone at all, let alone as caretakers of a younger sibling.
TheBlackAdder
(28,076 posts)A 10-year-old kid doesn't understand all of the things that could go wrong, and surprisingly quite a lot of adults responding to this thread lack the critical thinking to make that determination as well. There could be a fire, choking, electrical risk from playing with wires, puncture wounds, etc. In those situations, as a trained first aider/AEDer, seconds count... not the minutes it might take to get a neighbor or wait for EMS. The child might also face disfigurements brought on by the kid being five and acting like a kid being five.
Then, on top of that, it's amazing that people would saddle a 10-year-old with the guilt if something went wrong?
Leaving kids that young might pass --up until the "adult's" luck runs out. Once something goes wrong, they'll probably be brought up on charges of one sort or another.
I'm a single working parent, when the kids were 10, 7, 5 and 2. I've never left them alone. EVER! Now, my youngest is twelve so I an finally leaving that rhelm... BUT I NEVER leave her alone by herself either! There was always a real responsible person watching after them. You have kids that are on their technology or distracted with other issues that you place as watchers over a five-year-old? I've seen 13-year-olds who are mature enough to handle watching after ONE kid or possibly two, and I've seen other 13yo's who I wouldn't trust pouring a glass of water.
moriah
(8,311 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)if something goes wrong.
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)OK.
Mariana
(14,849 posts)The Duggar girls were/are caretakers for their younger siblings 24/7, not just after school, in the evenings or at night. The Duggar girls didn't/don't go to school. That's not analogous at all to a child who watches a younger sibling for part of the day.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... isn't close enough to 24x7 for you?
My sister got to escape her forced "little mother"-hood taking care of me by school, too, but it doesn't mean that it was right to put her in that situation as a preteen. (Mom worked on the road five nights a week, Dad was home but not capable of supervising because he was usually high, so all the work fell on my sister who had yet to turn 12 when she was finally allowed to be a child herself again.)
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)Times have changed and it is too dangerous.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)If times have changed they've changed for the better as far as this goes.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)While I agree it is never a good idea to leave a ten year old alone (much less leave a 5 year old in their care).... I am the single mother of three (the youngest now 18) ... I did not leave my kids alone (I didn't like them alone when the were teens ) ... but ....
I had options. I did not have to work for poverty wages (it felt like I was, but I really wasn't), I had family and friends that were securely middle class and helpful, I received child support to assist in the care of my children ....
I am curious what options this mother had (aside from the obvious "have a job that paid enough to pay for child care while she worked) ... this entire family is in an untenable situation and as far as I am concerned typifies the plight of the working poor. what options does this family realistically have ....?
Kali
(54,990 posts)there are ten year olds who could do it. if the situation didn't have a bunch of other red flags I would not be too concerned. (by that I mean signs of real neglect - lots of drinking, yelling, strange people coming and going, excessive injuries or behavioral questions)
treestar
(82,383 posts)These days it might be older. It might have been 14 for evening gigs. Parents would go out to parties or such and leave me to put the kids to bed. But then I recall my parents getting upset if the babysittee's parents stayed out past midnight.
Our swim club growing up had a good set of rules. I remember when I turned 14, my little brother could go with me only as his watcher as long as he was at least 7. It was cool because we could go when we wanted, not just when we could convince Mom to go. It was a place we could walk to.
Wash. state Desk Jet
(3,426 posts)than you know it is broken and because it is broken it is somewhat understandable that some or many are outraged about reporting child abuse in the form of abandonment ,a thing that is work related .
Fine on all that but, it is not you or any of you in the landlord/tennant situation. You all know what parent obligations are raising children legally and otherwise. A slumlord for example cares about nothing more than profit /collecting the rent. A slumlord couldn't care less about a Tennant's children unless those children are causing other tenant's to move out.
The responsible income property owner by law cannot turn a blind eye on what goes on in and on the property they own.And if the owner is not owning up to legal responsibilities of ownership, such as turning a blind eye to child abuse ,if that is what it is, than for starters her insurance can be canceled should the property owner be caught up in the legal ends of the said problem. Landlord tennant laws are serious stuff.
For example, if the landlord lives in a different place and the rental is used by drug dealers to manufacture dope,cops were called by neighbors multiple times ,the landlord as a result of that was cautioned by authorities and the responsibilities of ownership ,does nothing than says it takes months to do an eviction ,again broken system, than the druggies continue on and eventually get busted-,it does not end with a bust. the landlords property can be turned over to the county/city.state or federal government .
It is possible the landlord simply did a face to face interview with the tennant and as a result of the tennant interviewing well ,the landlord rented the unit in contract to the tennant based on the interview face to face without at the very least doing a back round check which is done before the signing of the contract.In this case I think it is possible as is in many cases, the landlord believes herself to be a good judge of character.
Well, look at it now.
You can take sides if you will, but it is not you at the helm and it is not you that has and holds the responsibility or ownership.
I do think the landlord is too close the tennant situation, at the same time there isn't much in choice since the landlord lives on the property. And I don't know that the landlord fully understands the rental business which is a business.
What was done is done ,and what happens from here on is what is important.
I think the poster of the original thread on this topic may have actually been seeking some positive input. And I don't think she is out to just evict the tennant or have her children removed by the child protection agency..
And I think the poster posted in hopes of gaining some good advice as to what to do and what not to do.
And what needs to happen, is the landlord should sit down with the tennant and work it out.
Because where it's at now can only get worse unless they come to an agreement.
There are laws to protect the tennant and there are laws to protect the landlord and there are laws to protect the children.And there are laws to protect the community. And clearly this is about to become a mater of law unless those two get together and work it out.
And unless you are out to offer some positive input ,all you are out to do is make matters worse than those matters already are.
It is not about taking sides, what it is about is the best possible outcome given the circumstances surrounding the situation. The clock cannot be turned back, what is done is done.
So, whats the best way to fix it now.
If you have some positive input, say so. If not say whatever I suppose.
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)...for a little while, during the day. However, I would not feel comfortable with that situation at night or overnight.
This thread and the one that "inspired" it point out why the working poor are victimized again and again and again. If they have jobs, whatever shift they are, affordable and safe child care should be readily available. Then parents wouldn't be put in this horrible situation of 1) either giving up the job because of no child care; or 2) trusting that nothing catastrophic happens while they're gone, a worry that could also jeopardize their job.
We, as a society, can fix this, if we so choose.
dembotoz
(16,739 posts)no name no slogan
(25,184 posts)At the age of 6, I was a "latch-key kid" in the 1970s. I came home from school every afternoon around 3, and stayed by myself until my single working mother came home-- usually around 7:00. Some nights, she didn't get home until well after my 10:00 bedtime.
I cooked supper, entertained myself, and generally took care of myself without once burning the house down, letting in a child molester, or anything catastrophic happening. If I needed to get hold of an adult, I had a list of phone numbers to call, and I knew my neighbors.
By the age of 11, I was babysitting the two kids across the street, aged eight and four. I was mature enough to handle that for a few hours at a time. I never had any complaints from the kids or their parents about my babysitting.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)It depends on the kid, but I know plenty of 10 year old's who were fine to be alone for several hours. Overnight is another question, and it depends on how long "overnight" actually is.