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Fearless

(18,421 posts)
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 10:29 PM Jun 2014

Netflix Couldn't Give a Sh*t About Verizon's Feelings, Releases Letter Criticizing Their Speeds



Just last week, Netflix started posting notifications on their service whenever data speeds starting slowing, with a message putting the blame on the Internet service provider, and not them (see above). Verizon had a problem with this, and the company sent Netflix a cease and desist letter.

Now, in a letter obtained by Quartz, Netflix general counsel David Hyman had a bone to pick with the ISP (emphasis added):

Your interpretation mischaracterizes our messaging. The message you cite to in your letter merely lets our consumers know that the Verizon network is crowded. We have determined this by examining the difference between the speed at which the Verizon network handles Netflix traffic at peak versus non-peak times. The messaging is part of our ongoing transparency efforts to let consumers know their Netflix experience is being affected by congestion on their broadband provider’s network. We are testing this type of messaging across the US with multiple providers.

Furthermore, your attempt to shift blame for our customers’ experience on the Verizon network “squarely to Netflix itself” disregards Verizon’s responsibility to provide its customers with the service it has promised them. Verizon sells residential Internet access to its customers. In fact, it is my understanding that Verizon actually upsells customers to higher speed packages based on improved access to video services, including Netflix. Verizon’s unwillingness to augment its access ports to major Internet backbone providers is squarely Verizon’s fault. As an ISP, you sell your customers a connection to the Internet. To ensure that these customers get the level of service they pay you for, it is your responsibility to make sure your network, including your interconnection points, have sufficient capacity to accommodate the data requests made by those customers. To try to shift blame to us for performance issues arising from interconnection congestion is like blaming drivers on a bridge for traffic jams when you’re the one who decided to leave three lanes closed during rush hour...

The rest of the letter can be found here: http://www.complex.com/tech/2014/06/netflix-verizon-letter

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Netflix Couldn't Give a Sh*t About Verizon's Feelings, Releases Letter Criticizing Their Speeds (Original Post) Fearless Jun 2014 OP
I have both Netflix and Verizon yeoman6987 Jun 2014 #1
I have comcast, but have noticed lately on netflix Voice for Peace Jun 2014 #15
Last May 2013, Verizon went up 20% on our internet cost. We got slower service. When we called DhhD Jun 2014 #36
I understand your displeasure yeoman6987 Jun 2014 #40
I have a copper line with Verizon and I hear their sales pitch all the time. gvstn Jun 2014 #53
When we were on Verizon FiOS, Netflix was near instant. onehandle Jun 2014 #2
I also have Comcast and they've been slowing more frequently, recently. Voice for Peace Jun 2014 #17
you want one of these. I have 3 (one for each TV) and they work better than corkhead Jun 2014 #30
thanks! first I have to get rid of comcast Voice for Peace Jun 2014 #33
I'm in your situation NJCher Jun 2014 #42
Shop around smallcat88 Jun 2014 #38
Location, location, location... and experimentation. mwooldri Jun 2014 #46
Love it! Baitball Blogger Jun 2014 #3
Zing!!! scarletwoman Jun 2014 #4
To try to shift blame to us for performance issues arising from interconnection congestion is like giftedgirl77 Jun 2014 #5
Yes indeed. 47of74 Jun 2014 #39
We have Netflix and ATT rosesaylavee Jun 2014 #6
the FCC? calll Obama's anti-net neutrality spokesperson right away lol nt msongs Jun 2014 #9
We had it with Netflix and Times-Warner. JDPriestly Jun 2014 #18
The FCC isn't going to bust anyone. The FCC are enablers. Enthusiast Jun 2014 #26
Here is the link to the FCC investigation rosesaylavee Jun 2014 #29
Right between the i. nt Xipe Totec Jun 2014 #7
Spot on!!! n/t RKP5637 Jun 2014 #8
.....heh.... Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2014 #10
"Three lanes closed during rush hour." Holy shit. I love it. valerief Jun 2014 #11
Is that a Chris Christie/George Washington Bridge reference? tclambert Jun 2014 #19
Oh yes it is! Fearless Jun 2014 #21
Netflix is no angel but I'll have to side with them on that one PatrynXX Jun 2014 #12
Picking favorites among warring corporations: A lot like voting these days, come to think of it. n/t RufusTFirefly Jun 2014 #13
+1 - but it's all smoke and mirrors erronis Jun 2014 #47
I love my netflix.. they've always been angelic to me! Cha Jun 2014 #14
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #16
K & R Tommymac Jun 2014 #20
Except Netflix sucks too. Puzzledtraveller Jun 2014 #22
Are you serious? Orange is the new Black and House of Cards are great television. Warren DeMontague Jun 2014 #24
I very much enjoy Netflix, their service. I don't enjoy the industries that withhold releases from 2banon Jun 2014 #49
Good for Netflix. Warren DeMontague Jun 2014 #23
I think they are BOTH trying to fuck customers davidpdx Jun 2014 #25
Yes! This says it all. Don't be lured into taking sides in a dispute between big corporations. Towlie Jun 2014 #35
But this not a game. blackspade Jun 2014 #43
Except Netflix does have control over the bandwidth the customer recieves. dilby Jun 2014 #57
I understand that, but... blackspade Jun 2014 #61
Again Netflix is providing sub standard service and blaming an ISP. dilby Jun 2014 #62
Actually, as an AT&T customer... blackspade Jun 2014 #63
As long as they fight, we get fucked a little less. Orsino Jun 2014 #64
k&r n/t RainDog Jun 2014 #27
Gotta love Netflix emsimon33 Jun 2014 #28
House of Cards and Orange is the New Black is reason enough to subscribe. 2banon Jun 2014 #50
LOL - K&R myrna minx Jun 2014 #31
Was this a happy accident, or done at Christie's expense? T Roosevelt Jun 2014 #32
I caught that as well. Orrex Jun 2014 #45
Link below to best article I've read discussing the Verizon/Netflix fight onenote Jun 2014 #34
I use Netflix daily and love it! ISP's suck!!! santamargarita Jun 2014 #37
I cut the satellite smallcat88 Jun 2014 #41
Awesome!! supercats Jun 2014 #44
Go netflix! TRoN33 Jun 2014 #48
Corporations do not have feelings. jwirr Jun 2014 #51
NETFLIX SLAMS CHRIS CHRISTIE leftyohiolib Jun 2014 #52
Foo-kin-bee-YOO-tee-ful!!! rocktivity Jun 2014 #54
I wondered why they had decided to pay Verizon. Now I know why. nt NorthCarolina Jun 2014 #55
I just did a speed test... PasadenaTrudy Jun 2014 #56
A lot better than 768k from Windstream LiberalArkie Jun 2014 #58
Verizon - The Chris Christie of "Broadband" nt ThoughtCriminal Jun 2014 #59
Oh no they didn't!!! Lady Freedom Returns Jun 2014 #60
 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
1. I have both Netflix and Verizon
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 10:35 PM
Jun 2014

This has NEVER happened to me. Maybe it depends on the area of the country. Arnold Maryland is perfect.

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
15. I have comcast, but have noticed lately on netflix
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 12:39 AM
Jun 2014

much slowing, much more often.

Netflix .. I pay something like eight dollars a month for unlimited streaming.

They have kept their costs very low.

DhhD

(4,695 posts)
36. Last May 2013, Verizon went up 20% on our internet cost. We got slower service. When we called
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 10:06 AM
Jun 2014

they insisted that we switch to a very expensive 2 year contract of fiber optic service or we could expect slower service. Not only had the service slowed, the service worsened over time, just as Verizon threatened.

Since, we have experienced all kinds of slow downs, static on the land line service and stoppages on Netflix. Over the phone, we were told that Verizon did not want to repair the copper line coming in to our part of the city and Verizon was trying to move the entire area to fiber optics. (A cable was dug along our street about 8 years ago.) Verizon just kept going up on our bill because we refused their sales pitch; it was like punishment. Verizon lost a lot of its bundle business over the past several years because they were too expensive. We are sick and tired of Verizon. As soon as possible, they will loose us as a customer.

By the way, fiber optics is very very inexpensive but Verizon charges about 1000% over the cost of recapture. Greedy, sorryass corporation wants huge salaries and bonuses for the top.

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
40. I understand your displeasure
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 10:49 AM
Jun 2014

however, I believe that Comcast is even worse. I don't think there is really any win-win for the customer of ANY company.

gvstn

(2,805 posts)
53. I have a copper line with Verizon and I hear their sales pitch all the time.
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 03:20 PM
Jun 2014

They may not want to deal with the copper lines but they will fix them if you have static on the voice/phone. I think they are still regulated by the Feds that they must make the phone lines relatively clear. So if you have verifiable static on the phone line when they finish their pitch tell them you still want your phone line fixed. The actual guy that comes out from their copper line department will usually be very nice but getting him out their is a battle.


I believe one reason they want everyone on fiber is because that is not regulated. Once they get everyone on fiber they can charge whatever they want and dictate how long you have to wait for a serviceman etc. They are drooling hence the push to get everyone off copper. Until they officially give up their monopoly on copper lines they must maintain them. (I think they are officially giving them up in certain areas but that is not the same as their incessant letters about network upgrades in your area.)

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
2. When we were on Verizon FiOS, Netflix was near instant.
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 10:38 PM
Jun 2014

We were paying for 75 Mbps speed.

Now we have 105 Mbps speed Comcast and it takes longer for Netflix to start, and sometimes stalls.

And supposedly Netflix pays Comcast extra.

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
17. I also have Comcast and they've been slowing more frequently, recently.
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 12:43 AM
Jun 2014

I do not like comcast, not their complicated thievery
nor their poor service. Still I pay them a fortune. I
don't need cable tv but they make me have it, in order
to have affordable high speed internet. It's so convoluted.

I would like to only have reliable high speed internet,
forget the tv, I can get an antenna apparently.
Anybody wants to give me advice please have at it.
I feel like a moron the way I pay these people to rip me off.
But they and their equipment confuse the hell out of me.

NJCher

(35,434 posts)
42. I'm in your situation
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 11:10 AM
Jun 2014

Comcast makes it impractical to get rid of them for TV and only have them for internet. They charge so much for internet alone that it makes the cost for the TV channels only 10 or 15 extra a month. In other words, internet $89 a month for internet service alone.

I was going with Direct TV but when I called up to quit Comcast, they made it economically impractical to do so.


Cher

mwooldri

(10,291 posts)
46. Location, location, location... and experimentation.
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 12:39 PM
Jun 2014

Reception of broadcast TV with an antenna completely depends on your location. In some areas, a $13 set-top antenna will work perfectly for receiving the local channels. In other areas the same $13 antenna is perfect for house decoration and useless at receiving TV signals.

If you live in a ground floor apartment, and you're in a "hole", you may be lucky to get anything. In which case, you may be stuck with cable.

But given this, I'd recommend starting with that el-cheapo antenna to see what can be obtained... then go up from there.

scarletwoman

(31,893 posts)
4. Zing!!!
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 10:58 PM
Jun 2014
like blaming drivers on a bridge for traffic jams when you’re the one who decided to leave three lanes closed during rush hour...

 

giftedgirl77

(4,713 posts)
5. To try to shift blame to us for performance issues arising from interconnection congestion is like
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 10:58 PM
Jun 2014

blaming drivers on a bridge for traffic jams when you’re the one who decided to leave three lanes closed during rush hour...


Priceless....

rosesaylavee

(12,126 posts)
6. We have Netflix and ATT
Sat Jun 14, 2014, 11:02 PM
Jun 2014

and it's terrible this last month. Buffering right in the middle of a scene and sometimes just boots you off and tells you to try the show later. Never happened before this past month. We already pay for faster service - but not the most expensive one. I hope the FCC busts whoever is responsible. Ridiculous.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
18. We had it with Netflix and Times-Warner.
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 12:47 AM
Jun 2014

And we pay extra for high speed service from Times-Warner. I love Netflix. Can't stand spoonfed TV. I don't watch a lot and want to be able to choose what and when I watch.

rosesaylavee

(12,126 posts)
29. Here is the link to the FCC investigation
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 08:20 AM
Jun 2014
http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/13/technology/fcc-netflix-verizon/


FCC to investigate Netflix-Verizon spat
By James O'Toole @jtotoole June 13, 2014: 4:30 PM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney)
Verizon and Netflix have been feuding in recent weeks over which company is to blame for slow streaming speeds. Now, government regulators are stepping in to figure out who's really at fault.

Federal Communications Commission chair Tom Wheeler said Friday that he had directed his staff to gather information on the dispute from Netflix (NFLX, Tech30) and broadband providers including Verizon (VZ, Tech30) to understand "precisely what is happening" and "whether consumers are being harmed."

"The bottom line is that consumers need to understand what is occurring when the Internet service they've paid for does not adequately deliver the content they desire, especially content they've also paid for," Wheeler said.

At this point, he added, the FCC is simply "collecting information, not regulating."

PatrynXX

(5,668 posts)
12. Netflix is no angel but I'll have to side with them on that one
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 12:02 AM
Jun 2014

especially when Verizon charges crazy $$$ for it. I don't stream although Netflix movies show up fairly good. Just something sucks up too much bandwidth. so I can't someone else might.. so if you have more than one person in the house who streams.. it's tough. So I rent their blu rays and better quality but of late they have odd shipping times. 1 day to get here 2 days to get back. Nowadays their queue reflects this as 2 days to get here 2 days to get back but it's really still 1 day to get here and 2 to get back somewhere I feel ripped off. But not as much as Verizon.



Can you hear me now ? ? ? Yes and quit sending all those ???

erronis

(14,955 posts)
47. +1 - but it's all smoke and mirrors
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 12:40 PM
Jun 2014

Those "warring" democrats and repugs are really plotting their public strategy in closed conversations (along with the media, I might add.)

Same for the "warring" corporations. We all know that they have secret side conversations about how best to maximize their joint profits. After all, their top-level management went to the same schools, own houses in the same neighborhoods and vacation spots. Same for the government/corporations - out one door, in another - pocket money and influence along the way.

Cha

(295,929 posts)
14. I love my netflix.. they've always been angelic to me!
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 12:35 AM
Jun 2014


"To ensure that these customers get the level of service they pay you for, it is your responsibility to make sure your network, including your interconnection points, have sufficient capacity to accommodate the data requests made by those customers. To try to shift blame to us for performance issues arising from interconnection congestion is like blaming drivers on a bridge for traffic jams when you’re the one who decided to leave three lanes closed during rush hour..."


Lookin' at you, Christie.. you and your admin are now in the national jargon. I don't care how many people you fired. you corrupt a$$hole.

I have Hawaiian Tel. com and it's really fast. So grateful. Mahalo Fearless~

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
22. Except Netflix sucks too.
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 02:29 AM
Jun 2014

Their selection is shit and they had better improve fast as new services where you can customize your selection of all movies available and for the same monthly price are coming from several providers.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
24. Are you serious? Orange is the new Black and House of Cards are great television.
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 03:03 AM
Jun 2014

Anyway, crap content isn't the issue, the issue is internet providers acting like the can hold bandwidth hostage, which is exactly what net neutrality is designed to prevent.

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
49. I very much enjoy Netflix, their service. I don't enjoy the industries that withhold releases from
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 01:56 PM
Jun 2014

Netflix. It's not Netflix at fault for those issues. Reason why I keep supporting them. I really enjoy their new productions. Just finished Orange is the New Black second season, outstanding. Can't wait for the next House of Cards. Looking forward to other productions.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
25. I think they are BOTH trying to fuck customers
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 03:30 AM
Jun 2014

As long as they continue to play "the blame game" the customers lose.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
43. But this not a game.
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 11:19 AM
Jun 2014

In this instance Netflix is exactly correct.
Verizon, AT&T, and the other ISPs are attempting to shift the blame for their crap service onto a company that does not have control over the bandwidth a customer receives.

There are not two 'sides' to this story.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
57. Except Netflix does have control over the bandwidth the customer recieves.
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 07:28 PM
Jun 2014

Netflix is producing the content being delivered they can use a better adaptive streaming workflow that would allow customers to never see a buffering screen. Their issue is to do that would be extremely expensive on their part, if they went with HLS they would probably have to have 10-20 different copies of the same movie all at different resolutions and bitrates. But with this method the customer literally would never see a buffering message, it's just Netflix would rather the ISP spend the money instead of themselves.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
61. I understand that, but...
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 09:08 PM
Jun 2014

The fact of the matter is that Netflix would have to dramatically increase costs to do so, killing their business model. Also they are not An ISP so it is not their business to provide bandwidth, but content. ISPs on the other hand charge ridiculous amounts of money for degrading services and then blame it on content providers. ISPs already charge high rates that should go to infrastructure upgrades, but instead they spend the money on executive salaries and lobbying at the FCC and congress to increase their profits even further.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
62. Again Netflix is providing sub standard service and blaming an ISP.
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 10:35 PM
Jun 2014

There are plenty of companies who have adapted to this technology and offer a better experience for their customers. Netflix is resting on it's laurels and blaming the ISP in the hopes that the ISP picks up the tab for the benefit of Netflix's customers. The end user has satisfactory internet for everything except Netflix, why should an ISP go out of their way so Netflix can make more money without spending any of it? And Netflix is the only one that seems to have this issue, I don't see people complaining about Amazon Prime, HBO Go, WatchESPN, Hulu or any other online video service.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
63. Actually, as an AT&T customer...
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 08:16 AM
Jun 2014

I'll say that my Internet service is less than satisfactory, period.
This is not a Netflix only issue. This is an ISP infrastructure problem that is common all over the US.
But, my options are limited. It's AT&T's crappy service or Comcast's crappy service, both of which are expensive, have poor customer service, and poor data delivery.

So, ISP's and their tech mag sock puppets making this about Netflix deliberately obfuscates the real issue of profit extraction from a system that is subpar because of ISP greed.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
64. As long as they fight, we get fucked a little less.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 11:08 AM
Jun 2014

When they kiss and make up, or are owned by the same entity, then we'll see some real fucking.

emsimon33

(3,128 posts)
28. Gotta love Netflix
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 05:25 AM
Jun 2014

I am tempted to become a subscriber just because of this! (It's all I can do to watch the TV shows that are on my DVR as it is).

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
50. House of Cards and Orange is the New Black is reason enough to subscribe.
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 01:58 PM
Jun 2014

2 Seasons on each so far. Both EXCELLENT.

T Roosevelt

(4,105 posts)
32. Was this a happy accident, or done at Christie's expense?
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 08:38 AM
Jun 2014

"like blaming drivers on a bridge for traffic jams when you’re the one who decided to leave three lanes closed during rush hour."

onenote

(42,383 posts)
34. Link below to best article I've read discussing the Verizon/Netflix fight
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 09:24 AM
Jun 2014

If you're really interested in understanding the situation, and not just taking the word of one side or the other, I suggest you take the time to read it.

http://blog.streamingmedia.com/2014/06/netflix-isp-newdata.html

smallcat88

(426 posts)
41. I cut the satellite
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 10:55 AM
Jun 2014

last year, too expensive. Left AT&T and went to Comcast for internet. No serious problems with Netflix. Yet. But I will probably switch again in another year or two. The longer you stay with any one ISP (or cable or satellite company) the more likely they are to jack up prices. Keep switching, get in on one of those sign up deals that locks in a lower price for a year or two, then switch again. Just my way of saying I will not be a long-term customer until they stop gouging customers.

An a la carte system for cable and satellite would be best but no one is going to offer that until people start leaving these companies en masse.

 

supercats

(429 posts)
44. Awesome!!
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 11:44 AM
Jun 2014

I have both verizon and netflix and I have gotten this message several times while on netflix and I am glad netflix has the balls to state and put the blame where it belongs. I have had problems with verizon and I don't like them, I complained to them because I bought faster connection speeds and I see no difference. Good on you netflix.

 

leftyohiolib

(5,917 posts)
52. NETFLIX SLAMS CHRIS CHRISTIE
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 03:04 PM
Jun 2014

To try to shift blame to us for performance issues arising from interconnection congestion is like blaming drivers on a bridge for traffic jams when you’re the one who decided to leave three lanes closed during rush hour
probably not but i'll take it

apparently im late to this party

rocktivity

(44,555 posts)
54. Foo-kin-bee-YOO-tee-ful!!!
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 04:21 PM
Jun 2014

Last edited Sat Jun 21, 2014, 10:09 PM - Edit history (2)

Plus, it's a perfect example why the Comcast-NBC merger was a bad idea -- and why the Comcast-NBC-Time/Warner merger would be even worse.

How can you blame the cable ISPs, though? it simply isn't in their best interest to give Netflix equal time.

And what you do think is happen start when the next presidential election starts up? Guess whose party and candidates are going to find their web sites harder to access!


rocktivity

PasadenaTrudy

(3,998 posts)
56. I just did a speed test...
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 06:51 PM
Jun 2014

I have Earthlink through Time Warner... download speed was 15.95Mbps, upload was 1.07 Mbps. Is this good or bad? lol

Lady Freedom Returns

(14,120 posts)
60. Oh no they didn't!!!
Sun Jun 15, 2014, 09:06 PM
Jun 2014
To ensure that these customers get the level of service they pay you for, it is your responsibility to make sure your network, including your interconnection points, have sufficient capacity to accommodate the data requests made by those customers. To try to shift blame to us for performance issues arising from interconnection congestion is like blaming drivers on a bridge for traffic jams when you’re the one who decided to leave three lanes closed during rush hour...


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