Keep trying.

The only correct answer is "as soon as possible".

the fastest one.

Since the US, thanks to Bush and his goons, made that magistral mistake, we should at least take the responsibility of the outcome, for Iraq and the US futur.

So, try again.

many of were appalled by the LOOK FORWARD bullshit that left those bastards completely off the hook

to please us, progressives, than by really securing the Iraqi political environment, he know that al-Maliki was a mistake.

whining on this very board that President Obama didn't even end it. It was bush. Course now they want it both ways. The main thing is that it's "Obama's fault".. so they can throw their cheap shots.

Where are those folks now? I wish I could remember the name of the poster who was around a few moths ago insisting the President Obama deserved zero credit as Bush ended it prior to Obama's election with that date.

And he was right.

So which is it.

If Obama had out forth a plan in 2012 to continue there or ramp back up I would have sat home on election day.

The U.S.–Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq) was (SOFA) between Iraq and the United States, signed by President George W. Bush in 2008. It established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011.

Really? This is bushes mess period, a stupid war started by a very stupid bunch of ignorant old republicans

Oh, and Obama had nothing to do with Maliki being Prime Minister, Maliki was the Bushies pick.

Strikes a rather tinny note....

Sort of like it's coming from under a bridge...

Iraq has just gone back to it's original borders from 100 years ago and unless ISIS is kicked out and the Sunni's are not included in the power structure more it will stay that way. Not sure what you think Obama was supposed to do about that thought? Al-Maliki was Bush's choice. Now that he is in we have to go by the will of the people and Iraq is mostly Shiite. It's just a fucking swamp and probably will be for another 50 or 100 years. All we can do is put pressure on Maliki to include the Sunni's more.

... which is, for the most part, already completely removed from reality.

to complain how awful the posters are here? If we're so "removed from reality" and all the other vindictive shit you come here to post, why waste your precious precious time?

Unless there is a break between preaching to the choir and lost sanity. I think it is funny, most of us agree that the only thing Obama has to do with these two wars, is trying to end them and bring our troops back to America.

Or at least I think he is and I think most DUers agree - maybe I've lost touch with reality.

... a waste of my time, precious or otherwise.

I love a good laugh - and this site has provided some of the most enjoyable I've seen anywhere.

Did you hear the one about the CIA rendition plane landing in Copenhagen in order to scoop up Snowden from Moscow? It's comedy gold!

and only posting on DU to bitterly snipe about the community says quite a bit about you. What possible reason but sourness could you have to do so?

I often log-in just to 'rec' a post I think worthy of attention, or to high-five a poster who actually has something worthwhile to say.

The fact that you think I only post here to "bitterly snipe" says quite a bit about your lack of observation - but don't feel bad about it; there's a lot of that going around lately.

I do apologize for using the smilie. I completely forgot that this evil symbol has now been deigned to be the mark of the beast. I guess I just got lost in the nostalgia of remembering it as a mere reflection of amusement.

with your pov. Nothing wrong with that. And sorry, but because I think your self-touted writing skills are paltry, I tend not to read you. Never have. Your writing is way too labored and self-conscious for my simple tastes. Too much artifice, too little thought, Nance.

Oh, and twisting other folks words? Sad little habit, Nance. Of course I said nothing about the smilie symbol being evil, but hey, writers without much to actually say, lean on hyperbole.

... to recognize that posters K&R posts that agree with their own POV!!!

I'm sure most people who participate on message boards are under the mistaken impression that posters kick and rec posts that are totally contrary to their own views. Thanks for setting the record straight!!!

As for your comment that my writing is "way too labored and self-conscious", I'm wondering how you would know anything about my writing when, by your own admission, "I tend not to read you. Never have."

If you "never have" read me, how do you know anything about what I have written, or how I have written it?

You might want to think things through before you post ...

some of us are actually committed to expanding our minds a wee bit, Nance.

I tend not to read you, Nance, is not an admission that I have never read you or never attempted to read you. I have, but you simply haven't the chops you evidently believe you have. If you have something compelling to say, you haven't been able to successfully convey that.

Too bad.

... K&Ring DU posts to be expanding one's mind?

I have never held myself out as having great writing 'chops' - I consider myself to be a servicable writer, nothing more than that.

As for my ability to successfully convey my thoughts, I think I've done fairly well in that regard, given that my articles have been published on countless websites over the years, as well as reprinted in newspapers, along with several having been read on-air by radio show hosts, including Thom Hartmann and Stefanie Miller.

Yeah, too bad.

.....inquiring minds and all. I do have to agree with Cali and question your opinion of yourself as being "a servicable (sic) writer".

I've always found you mundane and egotistical...but hey what do I know?

rumours of Snowden are on board anything is possible especially with this administration when it comes to whistleblowers and the NSA!

and I , too, love a good laugh! i often visit Democrats for Progress or Obama Diaries for that. Obama Diaries is like something out of North Korea with the adoration.

... you're being waaaay too obvious.

... based on an article whose only 'source' was an unidentified "enthusiast" who tracks aircraft flight patterns on his computer.

The article's author goes on to state that the plane allegedly sent to scoop up Snowden in Russia landed in Copenhagen, but - again according to the author - "didn't make it all the way to Moscow."

Apparently that was 'proof positive' for a lot of people here - despite the fact that there is ZERO evidence that this flight had anything at all to do with Snowden, or was headed to Moscow in the first place.

The tinfoil hattery is becoming a treasure trove of hilarity!

You mean the "left" is bitching that's it's all President Obama's fault? Not from what I've seen.

"Word' from Robert Reich's dad..."

Found on FB...

Robert Reich

"I'm here in Florida visiting my father, Ed Reich, who, at the young age of 100 and a half, just came up with one of the most incisive assessments I've heard of what's happened in Iraq: "George W. Bush and the crooks he hired are responsible for this. If they hadn't lied to the American people about weapons of mass destruction we wouldn't have lost nearly 5,000 American lives and god knows how many Iraqi lives, and stirred up this hornet's nest. Obama has spent his entire administration cleaning up Bush's shit, like someone with a giant pooper scooper." Dad has lived during the administrations of 17 presidents. "Bush was the worst," he says. "Reagan the second worst."

Over 200 Recs..
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10025097253

Bush should be held accountable for his actions. I think it is clear by now that Obama is NOT a pro war hawk that would start WWIII (McCain). He actually has a calm demeanor about him, not that nervous energy Dubya always had. Duyba always worried me that he would push the button or something so stupid but dire...he came close - let the towers fall, failed to catch the guy while in sight and invaded a country and made the region 10 times worse.

This has nothing to do with Obama. This is all the BFEEs fault, but some would pretend they are just a LOL myth.

He was handed a situation with no good options. None.

Everything he touched, turned to shit.

Some days I just despair.

all their minions. May they someday ALL experience the Hell that they deserve! Every. Single. One.

That "someday" may never occur on Earth, however.

The mess in Iraq is not Obama's fault. Obama wanted to leave some troops in Iraq but Maliki wanted us out and so we left.

Edited to add: Not that leaving a few troops in Iraq would have made things better. The Republican view that Obama could have somehow held Iraq together is pure fantasy.

.... and probably only just this once when it comes to Obama, I agree.

You have to twist the facts until they cry to find a way to blame anything about Iraq on Obama. He inherited a disaster and merely followed through with a plan for withdrawal that was already in place when he took office.

Rec

Kinda sad that this even needs to be said.

This is simply one of the inevitable consequences of the original invasion and occupation policy commenced in 2003.

The further back you go the better, hell lets blame Nixon, he's dead and nobody liked him.

If he allows one drone or air strike or "trainer" to enter Iraq he is completely to blame for that and all that follows. And anyone who does not believe that is completely removed from reality.

And that statement is pretty removed from reality. Putting blame on Obama for everything that follows if, say, the U.S. does advance with limited airstrikes ignores everything that happened there in the wake of the U.S. invasion. It also implies that the situation would be fine and dandy if we stayed out. Clearly if we stay out, the situation will only continue to dissolve - going in, even if it's through limited options, won't make that statement any less true. So, no, Obama doesn't deserve a lion's share of the blame of the continued collapse even if he decides to do something.

No, the situation is not going to be "fine and dandy" as you put it. Too bad. It not going to be fine and dandy in Egypt either where Obama said it was going to be the "transition to democracy". And it is not going to be fine and dandy in Libya where Obama intervened. And not in Syria where we are arming the so-called 'eat the hearts of our enemies' rebels. We need to stay out. Too bad you can't understand that. If Bush was president you would be demanding we stay out but now you are trying to justify whatever Obama does as a "Bush made me do it." BS.

Just ignoring it isn't going to change the fact Iraq is quickly turning into a cesspool of terrorism. I don't advocate Obama do anything, but to say if he does, especially if it's just one drone assault to take out a group of terrorists, that he owns Iraq now is ridiculous - just as ridiculous as those saying his leaving the country is the reason to blame for the problems there. The problems existed already and will only continue to exist.

Now if Obama beefs up forces there and sends troops and American lives are lost, yes, he deserves a huge share of the blame for that.

free and clear of the mess if he stays the hell out of there. Thank God the Iraqis didn't go along with the expansion he stupidly sought or he'd be owning this nearly certain outcome, don't go for a single additional bite of the poison apple hanging out there.

There was no possible good or even acceptable outcome once we busted up the stability, the only shot was a clean decapitation followed by setting up another minority strongman to rule with an iron hand with the benefit of relatively controlled factions and intact infrastructure. We went shock and awe and bowed to the fucking Saudis and the Turks and set up a damn Jinga where collapse was only a matter of time so there is no putting Humpty Dumpy together again.

They are already trying to stick him with it as is, see if they don't succeed if he fiddles with this. Just watch and all the angry protest and vigorous fingerpointing in the world won't help.

The only thing more incredibly foolish than "looking forward" is getting convinced to going "back to the future" on this, doing both would be stupicidal in the extreme no matter what excuses you think can be formulated or how vigorously you think fingers can be pointed.

I wish it was. But I understand the complexity of this issue. Obama is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. This is literally a no-win situation for the President. He doesn't do anything, and terrorism grows in the region, turning it into an even worse Afghanistan, then what? What if these leaders start planning to attack America or our allies in the future?

That's the concern I think the White House is realistically looking at here. If Iraq falls and becomes Afghanistan pre-2003, where does that leave our safety? It's fair to say the blame there DOES belong to Bush - but Obama is president NOW. He doesn't have the luxury to just sit back and hope things don't worsen to the point Iraq becomes a legitimate threat to the United States.

You're right, though. If he goes in, and breaks it even more, he owns at least part of the problem. But the problem won't go away if we stay away. It'll just fester, potentially get bigger and become a far greater threat to our country in the long run.

You know how I know? Because it happened with Afghanistan in the 80s and 90s.

Ultimately, I think any action will be extremely limited. Obama isn't a warmonger, despite what many paint him as here on DU. But I don't think calculated airstrikes, like with what we saw in the 90s, automatically means the Iraq Mess is his mess. No more than saying Clinton is as equally responsible for the Iraq War as Bush because he bombed 'em a few times.

rewriting history. Very 1984ish of them.

I fail to see how the clusterfuck over there could be stretched to be Obama's fault. And if someone thinks leaving Iraq was the wrong decision, their judgement is questionable enough that they should just be ignored.

Which would probably be the same thing