several members of Western society

"Never trust a man who has read just one book."

I adore Letters from Earth.

"...upwards of a thousand lies."

Late in life, after having been roughed up pretty thoroughly by life:
"God is a malign thug."

I was once speaking to an acquaintance with whom I try and refrain from talking religion.

I was talking about stress and the 'fight or flight' physiological reaction in relation to our current workplace. I said that the human species had not really evolved beyond where we were 20,000 years ago with fight or flight and was getting ready to say that you can't really spear your supervisor if they put you through a mind f**k.

His response? "That's NOT what the Bible says..."

Another time, I was eating with this same fellow, and was talking about current events. Suddenly, he spoke up and said, "I get MY news from the Bible."

Geez. What a conversation killer. I don't associate with this guy anymore because he just can't get beyond the myth and I'm sick of banging my head against a brick wall.

I don't even converse with these morons anymore - good morning, good afternoon and go to hell - my three phrases for all Fundies. They are a vexation to my spirit.

Must have missed whatever story this is based on...

Sounds like typical politician vote-grubbing to me. But good to know!

There are some intelligent people in our society who think the Bible is important so I tend to discount anyone's profession of religion unless it's truly 'out there'.

What Clinton said simply goes straight to my internal rubbish bin. It doesn't even register.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

do something along those lines to try to squeeze the 'vote sponge' for all votes they can get.

Isn't Jimmy Carter a minister?

"Though its author called it The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, the prominence of said author led to the inevitable informal title by which it is known today: The Jefferson Bible. American legend THOMAS JEFFERSON (1743-1826)-author, statesman, and third president of the United States-was a deist, a believer in, at best, a watchmaker god, one who did not take a personal interest in the goings-on of humanity. But Jefferson took great comfort from the teachings of Jesus, and so, by editing and rearranging the traditional books of the Bible, Jefferson here retells the story of Jesus in chronological form, removing all supernatural elements but retaining the beauty and the wisdom of the philosophy of Jesus. Jefferson, who had no desire to preach, refused to let his Bible beyond a circle of close friends, and it remained unpublished until 1895. Today, it is one of the most astonishing-if oblique-works of cultural and theological criticism in the English language."

Science still wasn't there to explain enough to them so mythical stories passed on by generations (generational brainwashing) made more sense.

In the 21st century there is no excuse. We know how the sun works, we have a great understanding of the universe, we know how our solar system was formed. We know what causes earthquakes.

As far as Jimmy Carter goes, I think he is a really nice guy with a good heart, but never found him to be particularly smart.

I'll have to look that up!

and you "give a pass" to anyone that has religious beliefs before that discovery.

Okay.

the Bible is certainly not the most influential book they read. I would suggest texts from the enlightenment had a more profound effect.
(Jefferson's Bible sans God also shows it's limited influence)

But to clarify - you are scared by Christians who actually revere the Bible?

Bryant

How do you become a fundamentalist without actually following the holy book of the religion you are a fundamentalist of? And why would that be less scary?

Or is Fundie in this particular context mean any religious person? If so that's a bit confusing.

As for following a holy book, it would scare you if i said "I believe in treating others as I would like to be treated, as it suggests in the Bible."

Bryant

Okay, the last one doesn't happen really ever, it would if xtian fundies followed what their holy book says though!

I'm afraid of that too.

Do you think Hillary Clinton is likely to blow up Abortion Clinics?

Bryant

Religion has no place in government...none.

have no place in Government.

Bryant

...so I would prefer that they not be in government, or at least that their superstitions cannot influence their decisions and performance in government.

Obviously you don't have the power to accomplish this - but if you could - would you disenfranchise believers?

Bryant

Their majority, or at least their self perceived majority, is the reason that people like HRC pander to them and why atheists like me cannot be viable candidates for national office in this country. We are the ones who are effectively disenfranchised in that we cannot ever expect a candidate who represents wholly secular interests, or one who rejects superstitious fairy tales as explanations of the world around them.

A world in which believers are disenfranchised. You'll forgive me if I don't support your vision.

I do agree though that it's wrong that Atheists have such a hard time running for office; I certainly wouldn't have a problem voting for one (and have donated to atheist candidates in the past) although I am, as you know, a believer.

Bryant

What part of "of course not" did you construe to mean "I support disenfranchising religious citizens?" Sheesh.

"Do you think religious people should be allowed to vote?"

"Of course not."

How do you read that exchange?

"Of course not" was my answer to your question "should religious voters be disenfranchised?" (paraphrased from memory)

according to biblical "laws".. that specifically is the issue. Keep your faith to yourself if you're holding office. Pray to whatever god(s) you want . but do it away from the public space.

Kind of like having sex. express your passion as you will with who you want, but please don't do it in my face.

In addition to a rousing tale, Homer's epic tale, The Iliad, is also an ancient Greek discussion on political ethics. The characters' many quarrels, laments, reconciliations, and vows of loyalty and friendship all critically model the principles underlying Greek political ethics of collective responsibility and relationship. Much of modern Western political thought focuses on classical Greek discussions of this particular 1000+ year old fairy tale.



Frightening indeed...

If a persons critical thinking is such that they think mythology is true...that's unsettling to me.

It explores that theme, but offers little usable advice on the topic.

loons, and don't get me started on "Mein Kampf"...

We know more today than we did yesterday. We recognize "new" problems, have new ways to address old problems. And we kinda already know not to take dietary advice from a talking snake.

Just once I want a politician to tell me that they are guided by the scientific method, logic, reason, critical thinking, and modern ideas about equality and justice.

Until then, I will continue to vote lesser of the evils.

Or any of a large number of groups, that person is slammed. But saying nasty things about religion is perfectly acceptable. Why is that? Selective indignation?

Warms my heart.

And now we're done.

"No" is not an answer.

You ducked the question.

people in congress who believe that, statistically unlikely that there are no atheists in congress (think I heard that on Bill Maher not too long ago). But they can't afford to admit it publicly if they want to get elected.

it's actually hard to think of a single book that is "the" most important influence on one's life.

that's if you're trying to answer correctly in an academic sense.

in a political sense, you certainly want to make your answer resonate with potential voters, and "the bible" is the obvious, safe answer; in contrast, pretty much anything people might hear as "not the bible" is risky.

It's pretty easy to tell that was an answer for political consumption.
What politicians do, believe, and say are not the same, and it never has been.

People here may think that a requirement for President, but I can assure you the voting public does not.

Why are people so easily steered?

I am willing to bet that 50-60% of the people on DU read stuff like that and shrug their shoulders and think, "well, I highly doubt THAT is actually true"...and then they go on about their day and don't give it another thought...yet, on the other side of the spectrum, on the crazy lunatic fringe of the right (and sadly on too many in the so-called middle), ~50-60% of people read stuff like that as a kind of personal affirmation, a nod from the elites that their wacked out beliefs are truly valid and "important" and thus any politician who pays insufficient lip-service is punished and all must "bend the knee" so to speak to saying that they are really, really super guided by god and his son who is really himself.

The inanity of organized religion aside, I am far more curious of the psychology involved in this phenomenon on both sides of the equation and how much this inherent quality of the electorate - this NEED to be reassured, even when sentient beings would HAVE to realize they are being lied to at their own request - plays into the dominance of money in politics.

Let's break it down to simpler terms and throw the religion angle out...people in the electorate clearly show two things: 1) they are easily duped by even the most insincere gestures of a politician saying they agree with a favored position (say abortion rights or restrictions or immigration reform or marriage equality), 2) they are hideously malleable through the use of 15 second sound bites on TV, radio and advertising. How is it that Americans are so willing to self-delude? Why are campaign ads virtually unchanged for 50 years minus the volume of them? ("Candidate X? Too Y for Z..." - insert name for X, pejorative adjective for Y and city or state or America for Z....lather, rinse, repeat)

It makes me horribly sad to know that many people feel so powerless in their lives that even a modicum of acknowledgement, even something so crass as political pandering is all it takes to win their vote and then their fierce loyalty to the "team". We can't fix America until we figure out how the hell to fix Americans.

Your entire post.

"The need to be reassured" and to have their own view of the world mirrored in the public eye, through politicians as well as the media. That is evidenced in how upset some become when MSNBC derivates from their views.

and like it or not, we're living on a planet of children. It's all about surrendering to the will of an all-powerful, all-knowing entity because the alternative is that you have to think for yourself. And you need brains for that. Consider that the vast majority of fundies are on the far right where thinking for yourself is anathema. Easier to just do as you're told.

I can't stand Hillary and don't want her as POTUS, but ffs get over it people.

Most Christians don't interpret the Bible literally -- Hillary Clinton is a Methodist,

not a Fundamentalist.

Looks like my response was incorrect. Most of the jury found your post not worthy of hiding. I am pleasantly surprised.
On Mon Jun 16, 2014, 10:02 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

It's like being a little bit mentally handicapped...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5105383

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Comparing Christianity to a mental handicap. I don't care which side of the argument you're on, that's offensive to someone!

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Jun 16, 2014, 10:06 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see anything negative or inappropriate in that post
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I think I recognize this poster from somewhere...
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: A better analogy could have been stated but it appears the person who alerted to this post is rather thin skinned when it comes to religion. Unfortunately I would bet that most of the jury will feel the same way, thin skinned and overly sensitive.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is offensive to anyone who has any sort of religious faith.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I mean, isn't that offensive to the mentally handicapped?

it probably is an insult to the mentally handicapped. No matter what analogy one uses one will insult the group or species they are referring to. On the other hand primordial ooze might be a better analogy that way no group or species is slandered.

A three-post troll decides to post a very over-the-top attack against a large group of people, including many DUers.

I'm sure his cave buddies are laughing about your defense of this guy.

That is why I got snarky with my primordial ooze comment. A little salt in their wound. Whoever alerted the post in question is rather thin skinned has I posted as a jury member. I was surprised that the post in question was not hidden. That made my day!

I rather got some chuckles out of the comment south of this one: "Fortunately most Americans do not share your disgust for the majority of human beings on the planet." It looks like someone is not too pleased with Ramhead's post. Too bad for that person.

Not every school of thought in bible studies is about literal belief in all of it.

You can guarantee it's a hit with the public. Fortunately most Americans do not share your disgust for the majority of human beings on the planet.

(never mind that Jesus has an older brother)

I believe it. I don't mind that you don't.

I am not big on the New Testament but I will say if Christians read the words of Jesus and took them to heart there would be a lot less problems being caused by Christians. Same can be said for religious Jews like myself, luckily Jews realize the Torah and it's laws only apply to us so we don't run around being critical of others. If you are scared that there are people who read religious texts and gain knowledge from it, I think that says more about yourself than the people who read the text.

Last edited Tue Jun 17, 2014, 11:39 AM - Edit history (1)

the combined whole is one large political document written by peoples with agendas throughout time.

What did you find so appalling?

Just like Fuxx Noise, has a large audience, yet no relevance. Neither reference the truth, just offer opinions. Words committed and used absent of thought are worthless.

That being said, just like Fuxx Noise, The Big Book Of Lies is a useful tool for politicians seeking to render their positions to those of low IQ and little intellect.

or perhaps she is referring to the general concepts of love and kindness to fellow humans, or whatever else the bible is supposed to mean, big-picture-wise.

As an aside, Little Bear was one of my kids' favorite shows - and a very sweet, kindhearted show, to boot.

I've read so many that had such profound wisdom or that just tickle me at my very essence it would be impossible to state that just one was most important.

is that it encourages a very short attention span. There is absolutely no sustained narrative in it. No wonder the fundies deny climate change, because to understand it means understanding an argument that is more than five sentences long. Or that they think when we invade Iraq or Afghanistan it will be over in a week or two, because to understand that such a thing would take longer requires thinking about it for more than two minutes.

And you could have given the context in the OP. I was going to ask but fortunately someone else did before I got to this thread.

I do agree that a lot of politicians will say that even if they don't mean it.

In my opinion much of what is in the Bible, even without going to a literal interpretation and trying to reconcile all the inherent discrepancies, means you have to think that certain horrors are good things. God telling some guy to kill his son? THAT'S something to admire? And worse yet, the guy starts out quite willing to do so? When I learned that story -- and as someone raised Catholic I came to many of the Bible stories quite late -- I was horrified.

And I have seen college educated, otherwise intelligent people absolutely believe that back then some people did live hundreds of years. Wasn't about to ask them about some of the other stuff.

But it's also fucking scary in addition to being lip service.

Those things can be explained as metaphors. I worry about the dependency on 'belief' as a foundation for reason, 'faith' abused to allow injustices, a human-centric view of the universe that cripples our understanding of our own world and our place in the universe, and the desperate need to be the 'one and only religion'. What incredible atrocities have been committed because of such a perspective. I can handle metaphor, it's all the other "stuff" that clings to it that makes it so nauseating and frightful.

nt

I think you do a disservice to believers and non-believers alike with your facile dismissal of some of the most ancient and influential works of literature in the world.

however, it is not the ONLY book I read...I am an avid reader and I read a variety of books....so many here so quick to judge others...makes me sick!

would not expect from a progressive forum.

Is that the Holy Staff or The Rod of The Almighty?

literally. In fact you value judgement on other's religious beliefs is quite narrow minded.

As long as someone doesn't push their religious agenda on you, why does it bother you?

children love it.

so none of the lessons or morals that the show teaches have any meaning.

though he was a monk and obviously the bible was the most important book in his life. To reduce the bible to to '900 year old humans and virgin births' makes me want to facepalm.

I will take Hillary any day over that fuck-up

I suspect that Hillary like myself does not believe the whole thing is literal. I get many of my values from the life, work, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Yes, the Bible is an important book to me.... but to me it is not a book to be taken above all others i.e. if the Bible says XYZ and there is overwhelming evidence that says otherwise - that's not how I go.

A lot of what is in the Bible are stories that tell of a deeper message of truth. Jesus spoke in parables.

If I had no other book then I'd be doing an awful lot of praying because not all the answers are in the Bible.

As for 900 year old men, and making the world in 6 days... that's fiction. As for virgin births... well there is the concept of the miracle.

That a possible Democratic presidential candidate is dumb enough to make a statement that the bible is the most important book in her life,

or

that she is cynical enough to assume that progressive voters will realize that her statement is just bullshit and vote for her anyway.

bronze age?


Well, shit.


(That said, it's a pretty normal thing for a politician to say in a nation wherein 60-70% of the population is nominally Christian)

Believing in an invisible MAN in the sky, not woman, not transgender but MAN, oh and white man no less...

what in the hELL! do i need to say more

Nah I'm just kidding, it makes total sense!

We should be better than that

Great stories, great poetry (King James version, at least.) Some (I'm one) people see it as remarkably accurate allegory (if an allegory can be seen as "accurate&quot for the human condition/experience. There are, of course, many other remarkable philosophies/faiths that also work wonderfully in our need to understand ourselves. That said, I am put off a bit by Hillary's statement.

In the Bible, I found the Great Commandment.. and then was blessed to find it in every other major religion.. this is just a few that I keep.

You paint with a mighty big brush there.. I find Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Jesus etc people I gladly admit influence my life and my thinking

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All things that you would want done for you, Do for others.. Matt. 7:12
Christianity

What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowman...Talmud: Shabbat 31a
Judaism

Hurt not others in ways that you would not find hurtful Udana-Varga 5,18
Buddhism

This is sum of duty, Do naught unto others, which would cause you pain if done to you.. Mahaebharata 5,1517
Brahmanism

Surely it is the maxim of loving kindness: Do not unto others that you would not have them do unto you
Analects 15,23
Confucianism

Regard your neighbors gains as your own gains and your neighbors loss as your own T'ai Shang Kan Yingp P'ien
Taoism

That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself
Dadistan-I-Dinik 94,5
Zoroastrianism

No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother which he desires for himself. Sumnah
Islam

We need a no nonsense, take no shit, kind of president. Kissing the ass of Christians may be necessary to get elected in this country, but a quote like that is over the top. The right will mock her for lying, and the left will slam her for kissing ass. I hope we can do better with our next (Democractic) president, so there's no way I'll vote for Hillary. Not Okily-Dokily!

To do so means suspending thought. I had doubts from childhood about my religion, finally started to study it in earnest around the end of high school. That's when I discovered that an emperor named Constantine in the third century called a council to create a comprehensive book for the entire religion. They cherry picked from the many books circulating at the time to create the bible. Constantine actually burned more books than he included. It was all to consolidate his power base. Small wonder that the bible is still being used for such purposes.

That said, while I haven't been religious for decades I still think Jesus was one of the greatest teachers who ever lived. He taught love, tolerance and peace. Teachings many fundamentalists today choose to ignore in favor of bashing anyone who doesn't share their beliefs. If their savior were to return he'd be giving them this

BTW many in my family are still religious and have no problem with my turning away from the church. I explained my reasons and they accept my choice. Of course, they don't take the bible literally . . .

Or would you just be more comfortable if there weren't any believers?

Bryant

That makes it a pretty important book, don't you think?

You shouldn't need a book to tell you these things. The bible is a book of cruelty slavery and oppression. Even the sermon on the mount is a mess of nonsense

Sorry if you are going to run on we don't need a book to tell us how to be good people then we don't need laws either.