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WilliamPitt

(58,179 posts)
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 04:17 PM Jun 2014

I may be sticking my head into the lion's mouth here...

...but I don't see what's so inherently preposterous about a person stating that the Bible is a major influence in their lives.

My Alabama grandmother was a kindergarten teacher for more than fifty years. She had me reading before I was three, and her main teaching tool was the New Testament. To this day, I still have large swaths of it memorized, and I think it's entirely fair to say that the good stuff in there had a positive influence on my belief system. To wit:

* If you have two cloaks, give one to someone who has none;

* Treat others as you wish to be treated;

* Heal the sick;

* Consort with people others might look down on, because you'll make great friends and learn a hell of a lot about the judgementalism of others;

* The nobility of personal sacrifice;

...and my personal favorite:

* If you're going to pray, go into your room and close the door, and do not spray your piety into the public wind to show everyone how holy you are.

^^^ That one, in particular, could use a lot more deployment in this country ^^^

I grew out of believing in the magic tricks - water to wine, raising the dead, walking on water, healing the lepers, etc. - a long time ago. I'm not sure Jesus existed, and am not sure God exists. I haven't been inside a church since my wedding, and God only knows (literally, because I don't) the last time before that. But I will freely admit that the Bible, and specifically the New Testament, owns top-three status on the list of books that have deeply influenced me. Remove the mysticism and the jumbled lessons, and the New Testament turns out to be a pretty nifty guidebook on how to be a good person in the world.

...and that influence has cut both ways. For all the important lessons I have taken from my interpretation of the text, I have taken at least as many good lessons from watching cretins abuse those texts to do exactly, precisely what Jesus said over and over not to do. The book is instructive in both its use and misuse, and both have deeply informed my political view of the world.

I am never going to be mistaken for a big Hillary Clinton fan, but people flipping out over her naming the Bible as her most important book confuse me. To be sure, she has never, ever been any kind of Bible-thumper in public life...so really, what's the big deal?

(/2 cents)

On edit: I should have mentioned that I'm not dumb. Watching politicians go through the tired ritual of paying obeisance to Christianity in America got old a very, very long time ago...but then again, if you follow politics, seeing it happen should be about as surprising as getting wet when you step into the shower. Like I said above, I can't remember Hillary Clinton bringing up the Bible before, so it's not like she's serially guilty of flouting religion for political gain as far as I can remember.

107 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I may be sticking my head into the lion's mouth here... (Original Post) WilliamPitt Jun 2014 OP
i just think it's tired political/religious ritual they put all candidates through. unblock Jun 2014 #1
I can see that. WilliamPitt Jun 2014 #3
When asked about bald eagles, must they all behave like Stephen Colbert and his eagles? Bluenorthwest Jun 2014 #18
Bingo! So much for "no religious test." Dark n Stormy Knight Jun 2014 #91
it's a red flag issue for me.... mike_c Jun 2014 #2
thing is, at the presidential level at least, there's no getting around it. unblock Jun 2014 #5
Hillary is a Methodist, I believe. JDPriestly Jun 2014 #27
I used to teach at a Methodist college.... mike_c Jun 2014 #38
I went to a Methodist college. We did not go to asjr Jun 2014 #48
in Annville, by any chance? mike_c Jun 2014 #53
Tennessee Wesleyan College--Athens TN asjr Jun 2014 #89
If Methodism preaches that a 2000 year old human sacrifice "saves" people, yes, it's nutty. phil89 Jun 2014 #42
Sounds like you are about as big a fan of the cult of the CJZ (Cosmic Jewish Zombie) as myself! Moostache Jun 2014 #57
^^ The answers to edgineered Jun 2014 #79
I have just returned from my granddaughter's bat mitzvah... CTyankee Jun 2014 #39
Mazel Tov on your granddaughter's leftynyc Jun 2014 #95
thank you. It was great. Her two older sisters had to step up and do some prayers on the CTyankee Jun 2014 #97
That's wonderful leftynyc Jun 2014 #99
my granddaughter's other grandmother (who is Jewish) and I wrapped the tallit around CTyankee Jun 2014 #100
When you stop and think leftynyc Jun 2014 #102
The party was a blast! It really is a big deal. But the kids had a great time and they had my CTyankee Jun 2014 #105
Sometimes they even get grandma leftynyc Jun 2014 #106
thanks CTyankee Jun 2014 #107
Same here. SammyWinstonJack Jun 2014 #55
Same here. Soylent Brice Jun 2014 #68
Well, one can easily form those ethics without the Bible Scootaloo Jun 2014 #4
That's it, right here. It's the pandering that I can't stand. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2014 #9
So let me get this straight... Jeff In Milwaukee Jun 2014 #83
Well, if you want to call yourself a dumbass, I guess I won't argue Scootaloo Jun 2014 #85
You're one, what am I? Jeff In Milwaukee Jun 2014 #86
You called yourself a dumbass. I decided to not argue with that. Scootaloo Jun 2014 #87
you might want to take a reading course before you post again dsc Jun 2014 #93
I'm putting you on Ignore Jeff In Milwaukee Jun 2014 #101
"It's pandering, and it's pandering that targets people who are never going to vote for her anyway." Scuba Jun 2014 #92
It might also be subterfuge nolabels Jun 2014 #96
I don't have an issue with it. I have an issue with playing politics with it. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2014 #6
How long will it be until HRC pledges fealty to Israel? elias49 Jun 2014 #7
Did you mean "loyalty" when you said "fealty"? Lady Freedom Returns Jun 2014 #15
Yes. nt elias49 Jun 2014 #74
It's not about Hillary's faith in the bible Oilwellian Jun 2014 #8
Yep. Interesting how that is so obviously overlooked all the time, Nay Jun 2014 #10
+1 Exactly. nt alsame Jun 2014 #11
Al Gore described him as a "friend and a hero" per Wiki nt moriah Jun 2014 #13
How often and how recently? Hekate Jun 2014 #31
And at whose annual prayer breakfasts Obama speaks at... joeybee12 Jun 2014 #51
There is no evidence she still prays with them. joshcryer Jun 2014 #73
Don't believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, either. blkmusclmachine Jun 2014 #12
And that is your right! hamsterjill Jun 2014 #22
Speaking of faith... WilliamPitt Jun 2014 #14
Her answer... KoKo Jun 2014 #104
Dr. Seuss did it for me. GeorgeGist Jun 2014 #16
You know it is about the Family, Hillary's long lasting opposition to equality and of course Bluenorthwest Jun 2014 #17
Hillary is a Methodist. JDPriestly Jun 2014 #24
Yeah, I know. But she cites Doug Coe as her mentor in spiritual matters and he's no Methodist Bluenorthwest Jun 2014 #33
I think the Methodist Church does not back gay marriage. JDPriestly Jun 2014 #36
Coe was Chuck Colson's mentor, too. grasswire Jun 2014 #56
Doug Coe was also Ensign's spiritual advisor. Not a good sign. A bit superficial for my taste. JDPriestly Jun 2014 #72
I grew up in the Methodist Church, too, but never joined. amandabeech Jun 2014 #64
Her involvement in that group troubles me because I wonder whether she is able to stay JDPriestly Jun 2014 #71
I can't add to what you wrote. You said it all. amandabeech Jun 2014 #75
your concern is mine also..... KoKo Jun 2014 #103
It would be nice to see one of them break ranks and say AtheistCrusader Jun 2014 #19
I agree. Thank you, WilliamPitt. JDPriestly Jun 2014 #20
Sticking your head in a lion's mouth gets pretty bad when the lion sneezes. tclambert Jun 2014 #21
HRC has been an "out" Methodist her whole life, but no Bible-thumper Hekate Jun 2014 #23
Allowing Others To Know Fred Gilmore Jun 2014 #25
I think anyone familiar with HRC would know that she is well-versed in Science, Math and History justiceischeap Jun 2014 #30
Agreed! Fred Gilmore Jun 2014 #41
I don't have a problem with people claiming that their belief system has or had a Swede Atlanta Jun 2014 #26
Well to state the obvious: it is pandering. Warren Stupidity Jun 2014 #28
Your grandmother taught it one way...there are other ways to teach it and many taught the other ways Tikki Jun 2014 #29
As an LGBT person, who has had the hateful book and religion worshipers make it a point to try to Zorra Jun 2014 #32
It's not about influence. It's about literal interpretations. Avalux Jun 2014 #34
I am with you on this one, Will. You don't even have to subscribe to the religion to recognize kelliekat44 Jun 2014 #35
it's the glib, talking-out-of-both-sides-of-the-mouth sheer hypocrisy MisterP Jun 2014 #37
Jesus without the miracles. Like Thomas jefferson GusBob Jun 2014 #40
Yeah, as if a politician would ever say that. JackRiddler Jun 2014 #45
The only bible Thespian2 Jun 2014 #60
It was for MLK and Gandhi... hlthe2b Jun 2014 #43
Leviticus? Genesis? Methuselah? Sodom & Gomorrah? JackRiddler Jun 2014 #44
You are right but sometimes the BS gets so tiresome that one Vattel Jun 2014 #46
Big problem - you and your Grandmother are cherrypicking the pretty bits intaglio Jun 2014 #47
You say the NT justifies slavery. WilliamPitt Jun 2014 #52
You have to first understand that the ancient world was a slave economy and that slavery was normal. Warren Stupidity Jun 2014 #69
Ephesians 6:5 intaglio Jun 2014 #81
A Jewish friend of mine learned Hebrew and Aramaic to read the Torah in the original DFW Jun 2014 #49
The Bible demands extreme honesty in all dealings. Bluenorthwest Jun 2014 #50
Just because I don't get religion doesn't mean nobody else is allowed to get religion. Warpy Jun 2014 #54
I remember as a child... kentuck Jun 2014 #58
I find that terribly sad.... mike_c Jun 2014 #90
Anybody catch Gohmert's recent pontifications? madamesilverspurs Jun 2014 #59
A big AMEN to your sentiments. Pretty much describes my own. maddiemom Jun 2014 #61
I was raised in the Methodist church. TNNurse Jun 2014 #62
Who read from the Bible this time? Aerows Jun 2014 #63
It's not the first time she's brought up religion TexasBushwhacker Jun 2014 #65
Because I'd prefer my representatives to be influenced more by reason. alarimer Jun 2014 #66
OK. For openers.... Jeff In Milwaukee Jun 2014 #82
Superb post. thucythucy Jun 2014 #88
Political public piety og1 Jun 2014 #67
Thank you for posting this. Ilsa Jun 2014 #70
I have no problem with Hill's Methodism. Jackpine Radical Jun 2014 #76
There is tremendous wisdom in the bible. DCBob Jun 2014 #77
My story's somewhat similar Prophet 451 Jun 2014 #78
"George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq' ... TeeYiYi Jun 2014 #80
I can imagine the threads if Tom Cruise became a Methodist. rug Jun 2014 #84
In this country still - TBF Jun 2014 #94
WHOA! WHOA! WHOA! Dirty Socialist Jun 2014 #98

unblock

(51,974 posts)
1. i just think it's tired political/religious ritual they put all candidates through.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 04:21 PM
Jun 2014

eventually you get asked the favorite book question, and the correct answer is the bible, period.

any other answer creates a mini-scandal of religiously offended people, what kind of person puts any book ahead of god's book, that sort of thing.

any politician with the slightest interest in winning knows to answer "the bible" no matter what answer they might privately prefer.


the question and its answer are about insightful as "are you an american?" "yes".

 

WilliamPitt

(58,179 posts)
3. I can see that.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 04:22 PM
Jun 2014

It's like asking a politician how they feel about bald eagles. (line I read somewhere today)

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
18. When asked about bald eagles, must they all behave like Stephen Colbert and his eagles?
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:11 PM
Jun 2014

My family is full of religious folks, none of whom support politics I religion or vice versa, and none of whom dig shit like The Family. None of them ever opposed equal rights for minorities on the basis of their 'faith'. Ask them about their faith, and they can in fact reply without shitting on gay people and exploiting God for their own agenda. It is possible. People do it every day.

mike_c

(36,213 posts)
2. it's a red flag issue for me....
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 04:22 PM
Jun 2014

I'm very anti-religion-- your mileage might differ, but that's just me-- so whenever I hear politicians pandering to religion it chaps my ass. It just does. It's something that always rubs me the wrong way.

unblock

(51,974 posts)
5. thing is, at the presidential level at least, there's no getting around it.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 04:28 PM
Jun 2014

in an ideal world, i, too, would prefer religion, religious beliefs, etc., to be considered irrelevant and immaterial in determining which candidate to vote for.

but that's not the way our political system currently works.

any candidate who doesn't display proper fealty to the right god is toast at the presidential level.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
27. Hillary is a Methodist, I believe.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:24 PM
Jun 2014

So was George McGovern.

You might find this interesting.

http://stephenrankin.com/george-mcgovern-the-quintessential-methodist/

Methodism is not a nutty, fundamentalist sect. It is about living a good life and caring for others.

My problem with Hillary is that she hob-nobs with the rich instead of really standing strong when it comes to the issues that will help the poor and the middle-class. My only problem with Hillary's religion is when she doesn't live it.

mike_c

(36,213 posts)
38. I used to teach at a Methodist college....
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:39 PM
Jun 2014

'Struth. It wasn't a great fit, but we tried to make it work. I am familiar with them. Nonetheless, as I get older I find myself with less patience regarding religion generally.

mike_c

(36,213 posts)
53. in Annville, by any chance?
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:11 PM
Jun 2014

That's where I was on faculty for my first couple of years out of grad school. Central Pennsylvania.

 

phil89

(1,043 posts)
42. If Methodism preaches that a 2000 year old human sacrifice "saves" people, yes, it's nutty.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:54 PM
Jun 2014

Methodism is absurd.

Moostache

(9,895 posts)
57. Sounds like you are about as big a fan of the cult of the CJZ (Cosmic Jewish Zombie) as myself!
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:21 PM
Jun 2014

[img][/img]

The entire thing - from any level of belief beyond metaphorical or allegorical - is (and has always been) utterly absurd. I loathe the fact that otherwise rational and sane men and women running for public office prostrate themselves in front of this superstitious crap constantly.

The right answer to any question with any religious implications regarding a candidacy is "I believe in the founding principles of the United States of America as set down in the Bill of Rights and support every American's right to freedom of religion."

If pressed by the asshat brigade of the media whoredom, continue "For me to imply or state a personal choice in faith is only to make some portion of our people, maybe even a very small one, feel marginalized, or fearful that I would not have the best interests of ALL Americans at heart as their leader. I am running for <insert office here> and not Bishop, or Rabbi, or Iman, or any other religious post. Each faith has selected many wonderful leaders to care for the spiritual and faith needs of the local communities, to extend that to Washington DC any further is offensive and should not continue."

Of course, then the shrieking loons of Faux Noise and the right wing would pounce on them and gin up fury and anger as if they actually gave a damn about the answer in the first place.

CTyankee

(63,768 posts)
39. I have just returned from my granddaughter's bat mitzvah...
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:39 PM
Jun 2014

My daughter married a Jewish man..She and her husband are raising my 3 granddaughters as reform Jews. I
have been enormously impressed by the scholarship and deep commitment to their ideas of justice, peace and love that emanates from their temple. They do not attend services regularly but consider a basic Jewish education as essential to their girls living their lives and good people. And they are very liberal and progressive.

Plus, I have a stepdaughter who is a reform rabbi! What a joy her ordination ceremony exactly a year ago was! I treasure the photo of the "laying on of hands" of the senior rabbi who ordained her...quite a moving and wonderful moment for this Texan...a former Protestant with a niece who is an United Methodist Church minister...

CTyankee

(63,768 posts)
97. thank you. It was great. Her two older sisters had to step up and do some prayers on the
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 08:55 AM
Jun 2014

bima (in Hebrew). Lots of music, too...a terrific cantor, her voice was lovely and she played the guitar vibrantly.

My husband and I also had a prayer to read...I was up at dawn that morning practicing it and that paid off...it went well and I even got compliments...

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
99. That's wonderful
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 09:25 AM
Jun 2014

I was not Bat Mitvah'd (my parents were very into finding your own way with religion - how my sister and I both wound up more religious than our parents is a mystery to everyone) but have gone to many for family. I have always been very grateful they find a prayer in English for me to recite (generally the prayer for peace) because it's quite the honor to be called to the bimah. It's a wonderful service and shows a commitment that's rare for those so young. Even if she never goes back to Hebrew school, chances are she'll remember her havtorah when she's old and gray.

CTyankee

(63,768 posts)
100. my granddaughter's other grandmother (who is Jewish) and I wrapped the tallit around
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 09:30 AM
Jun 2014

our granddaughter's shoulders and the rabbi explained the knots on the tallit's fringe...how they are meaningful...I had noticed the cantor fingering the knots on her tallit while she sang and played. I had wondered if she was nervous, but now know that it was an act of devotion.

I had to fight the tears several times during the service...

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
102. When you stop and think
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 01:21 PM
Jun 2014

about how long Jews have been doing this ceremony - literally thousands of years - it's hard not to get choked up. It's very meaningful. It seems much has changed (not in the ceremony but in the reception) since my friends were doing it - much fancier, much bigger parties (almost like weddings). I'm so glad you were part of it (placing the tallit is VERY meaningful).

CTyankee

(63,768 posts)
105. The party was a blast! It really is a big deal. But the kids had a great time and they had my
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 02:10 PM
Jun 2014

granddaughter up in a chair and played Hava Nagila." The solemn and then the joyful.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
106. Sometimes they even get grandma
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 04:16 PM
Jun 2014

up in the chair!! It sounds like you had a wonderful time. That makes me very happy.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
4. Well, one can easily form those ethics without the Bible
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 04:26 PM
Jun 2014

Clinton did not specify ethical beliefs, just that the Bible is the biggest influence in her life. As you say, she's no bible-thumper. In my opinion she's too well-educated and intelligent to place a mishmash of Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, and Canaanite mythology on such a pedestal.

It's pandering, and it's pandering that targets people who are never going to vote for her anyway. This is what she was doing in 2007-08 as well. it's not a "big deal" but it IS getting really fucking annoying to see someone who will sell themselves out presented as our "Only Hope" - two years before anyone appears on a fucking ballot, no less.

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
9. That's it, right here. It's the pandering that I can't stand.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 04:33 PM
Jun 2014

I can't stand it when Obama does it. I can't stand it, primarily when ANY Democrat does it. The only one I don't mind doing it is Jimmy Carter because I know that he is sincere about. Most other politicians, regardless of political stripe, are full of shit, in my view.

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
83. So let me get this straight...
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 10:02 PM
Jun 2014

Hillary Clinton is pandering because, in your opinion, she's just too darned smart to have faith.

So what a ignorant mother-fucker the Martin Luther King Jr. must have been, am I right? And Gandhi? Dumber than a sack of doorknobs! What an ultra-maroon! What about Obama himself -- twenty years attending the same stupid church! He must be as ignorant as all of those posters on Storm Front say he is.

But just to be kinky, here's a quote from an interview with Elizabeth Warren:

I grew up in a Methodist church and I was a Sunday school teacher when we lived back in Texas. When I was making the decision whether to get into this Senate race, one of the important touch points for me was to read my bible. And it’s Matthew 25:40, you know the passage? For me, that passage is the heart of what I believe. Because what it says is “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of these the least of these my bretheren. ...” (I still use the King James version, it’s beautiful).


What a dumbass, am I right?

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
85. Well, if you want to call yourself a dumbass, I guess I won't argue
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 10:17 PM
Jun 2014

I mean you clearly failed to grasp a very basic statement I made, so... you know whatever.

Clinton stated, "the Bible was and remains the biggest influence on my thinking." Yes, I think she's too smart for the Bible to be the biggest influence on her thinking today. I'm of a mind that a political science major who studied law at harvard and is seeking the highest offivce of the country on the democratic Party ticket very likely has many much more solid influences than the bible.

She can be as faithful as she wants, there's tons of "faithful" people who aren't claiming that the Bible is the biggest influence on their thinking. You know, people like Gandhi, who wasn't a Christian. In fact his philosophy was derived from ethical thought and belief in human rights, rather than religious adherence.

And since you brought him up, you know Dr. Martin Luther King, jr. was a minister, right? I mean really, if a minister tells me "the bible is the biggest influence on my thinking," that's perfectly believable, because, uh... minister.

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
86. You're one, what am I?
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 10:25 PM
Jun 2014

Seriously, are you in the eighth grade? All of things you say that you said in your stunningly erudite response were not actually in the post to which I responded.

In my opinion she's too well-educated and intelligent to place a mishmash of Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, and Canaanite mythology on such a pedestal.


That was what you said (before you added some faux-context to avoid sounding utterly foolish) and that's what I responded to. But now you're saying that Gandhi wasn't really a Hindu? Really? Seriously?

Try on this one: "I am proud to belong to that Hinduism which is all inclusive and which stands for tolerance. Aryan scholars swore by what they called the Vedic religion and Hindustan is otherwise known as Aryavarta. I have no such aspiration. The Hindustan of my conception is all-sufficing for me. It certainly includes the Vedas, but it includes also much more. I can detect no inconsistency in declaring that I can, without in any way whatsoever impairing the dignity of Hinduism, pay equal homage to the best of Islam, Christianity, Zoroastrianism and Judaism. Such Hinduism will live as long as the sun shines."

Have you ever considered reading a book? Any book.
 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
87. You called yourself a dumbass. I decided to not argue with that.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 10:35 PM
Jun 2014

Doesn't seem like an argument I'd win, after all.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. And that's exactly what the bible is - a mishmash of Babylonian, egyptian, Cannanite, and greek mythology. And yes, I believe that Sec. Clinto is too intelligent and too educated to put such a book on the top of her "MOST INFLUENTIAL IN MY LIFE!" list. since you brought up Senator Warren, at least she cited some particular passages, rather than the whole book.

it was lazy pandering on Sec. Clinton's part, and I don't think she did herself any favors with it.

And I told you Gandhi didn't claim the Bible as the biggest influence on his thinking, and that he was not a Christian. Also that his ethics did not come from adherence to a particular faith. In fact his statement you quoted very strongly indicates the reverse; that his faith was formed by his ethics, standing above dogma and scripture, making no sect lines between good ideas worth embracing.

You're trying too hard to be outraged. You could stop.

dsc

(52,129 posts)
93. you might want to take a reading course before you post again
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 08:18 AM
Jun 2014

the poster didn't call him or her self a dumbass the poster called Elizabeth Warren a dumbass. The irony of your post literally burns ones eyes.

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
101. I'm putting you on Ignore
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 10:45 AM
Jun 2014

We've dusted up in the past, and clearly your ability to put together a coherent argument is not improving. And now that you're stalking me across threads, I think it's time we parted company.

Arguing with you is like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. You'll make a ludicrous statement, and when you're called on it, you'll either deny you said it at all or simply gin up some after-the-fact context to make it appear somewhat less ludicrous -- and toss in a couple of juvenile insults. This subthread is a pretty good example of that.

But before we move along, let's return to Ghandi.

From Post #83: She (Hillary) can be as faithful as she wants, there's tons of "faithful" people who aren't claiming that the Bible is the biggest influence on their thinking. You know, people like Gandhi, who wasn't a Christian. In fact his philosophy was derived from ethical thought and belief in human rights, rather than religious adherence.


So the point that you've made here is that Gandhi's ethical system was not influenced by his religious beliefs, but rather by his "ethical thought" (whatever ever the hell that means) and his belief in human rights. This is a patently absurd and would be to anybody who has even a passing knowledge of Gandhi's biography. Try reading something (anything) before saying dumb stuff like that:

http://books.google.com/books?id=KLM8kMZZu-IC&pg=PA93&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

I believe the problem that you (and others) have is that when someone says, "The Bible was the biggest influence in my life," you're assuming that they're saying that one can only develop an ethical system if they're exposed to Christianity. That is, of course, not what Hillary said and it's not what any Liberal Christian would say.

Belief is not a zero-sum game where somebody has to win and somebody has to lose, and liberal Christians are generally happy to acknowledge that theirs is not the only path to an ethical and honorable belief system.
 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
92. "It's pandering, and it's pandering that targets people who are never going to vote for her anyway."
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 06:56 AM
Jun 2014

Bingo.

nolabels

(13,133 posts)
96. It might also be subterfuge
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 08:54 AM
Jun 2014

With Iraq back in the headlines, certain votes might not seem so favorable

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
8. It's not about Hillary's faith in the bible
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 04:31 PM
Jun 2014

It's about the anti-labor/anti LGBT/anti-abortion/one world religion Dominionist she often prays with and described in her book as a mentor.

hamsterjill

(15,214 posts)
22. And that is your right!
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:14 PM
Jun 2014

It is also the right of Hillary, me, or any other person, to believe as we see fit.

The respect of allowing and accepting that some believe while others do not is a two way street.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
17. You know it is about the Family, Hillary's long lasting opposition to equality and of course
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:07 PM
Jun 2014

she said it was the greatest influence on her thinking not 'a major influence in her life' but THE greatest influence on her thinking.
It is interesting that you quote the 'go into your room to pray alone' passage. If politicians practiced that law of their dang faith, we'd not suffer through their imposing their superstitions onto political and social issues. If they followed their own faith, the faith would not be a problem. But they do not follow it, they gather for National TV Prayer Breakfasts With Bigots.
It is the religious who publically associate their faith with bigotry and discrimination who are harming their faith. They do so in spite of commands within that faith, from the very man they claim 'died for their sins'.
If a person claims they are a Kosher eater while chomping a pulled pork sandwich should their Kosher habits be taken seriously? If one says they are Christian but do not follow the basic Jesus rules for how to pray, should that statement of faith be taken seriously?
If someone is slugging back some shots of smooth single malt while claiming they are religiously opposed to drinking, must we abstain from calling out that hypocrisy?

I'd like to hear Hillary address this Family shit, express her unmitigated support for total equality and make some amends for the years of subtle trash talk against gay people.
Is that too much to ask? Or must I take her support for my basic rights 'on faith' as she eats a pulled pork sandwich and prays in public?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
24. Hillary is a Methodist.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:16 PM
Jun 2014

It is not a superstitious religion. I grew up in it and then became a Unitarian. They are both very liberal churches (or used to be although I understand that the Methodist Church is being taken over by fundamentalists as have been so many other churches).

Methodism emphasizes clean, correct living, loving others and taking care of others. Methodism is one of the most active churches in social reform with a tradition of strong abolitionism for example.

George McGovern was a Methodist.

http://stephenrankin.com/george-mcgovern-the-quintessential-methodist/

Elizabeth Warren is, I believe also in the tradition of sane, liberal religion.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
33. Yeah, I know. But she cites Doug Coe as her mentor in spiritual matters and he's no Methodist
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:31 PM
Jun 2014

She also personally opposed marriage equality citing religion for years and years, until just a few months ago, she was one of the last Democrats to claim to have changed her mind. But she continues to associate with bigoted hate mongers.
The Methodist Churches I know were very early supporters of equality and gave much comfort to people during the early days of AIDS. However, I have never head Hillary speak of any of that. I have heard her say she opposed equality and that she adores Doug Coe.

Methodist or no, anyone who thinks LGBT people should be treated without equality is touting superstition. Sorry.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
36. I think the Methodist Church does not back gay marriage.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:35 PM
Jun 2014

A person in the know says it is because the Methodist Church is international and while in the US, many Methodists are in favor of gay marriage, the churches in other parts of the world vote against it. I cannot guarantee that is the true story, but it sounds quite right to me, and the person who told me that is quite reliable.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
64. I grew up in the Methodist Church, too, but never joined.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:47 PM
Jun 2014

My church was in a very small midwestern town, and although there were some excellent people involved, there were some people who really might have felt better in the Wesleyan Church. Some of them did leave the UMC and continue to do so over the LGBT issue, which seems to be tearing the UMC apart, much as it is the Episcopalians, or that is what I hear.

There has always been much freedom of the pulpit in UMC churches, and I don't know what Hillary's church was like. I have no problem with any moderate to liberal religious people. It's this business with the "Family" or the "Fellowship" that makes me extremely uncomfortable. They seem more like the folks in my little church who went over to the Wesleyans, and I don't want to vote for anyone who is remotely attracted to that tradition, whether or not they profess an acceptable position on LGBT issues.

I can't see myself voting for any of the Puke candidates, and I never have. But I really need Hillary to be honest on this issue. Why in the world did she get involved with this group?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
71. Her involvement in that group troubles me because I wonder whether she is able to stay
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 08:19 PM
Jun 2014

true to herself in situations in which there is social pressure to go along and conform with the crowd. That is the biggest challenge for politicians, to follow their own path, their conscience.

She voted for the war. She takes a lot of money from Walmart and the banks. She is not as strong on unions and economic fairness as is Elizabeth Warren.

I question whether she has the integrity and moral courage we need in the country right now. She is, I am sure, a nice woman. But what does she stand for? What does she think about the decline of unions, Social Security and Medicare, charter schools and trade agreements?

What is she willing to do to make the wealthy individuals and corporations either pay their taxes here where they sell their goods or just stop importing their goods?

What will she do to end the situation we are in? Our soldiers and drones, planes and ships go to the ends of the earth at taxpayer expense to defend the trade routes and oil rights that make it possible for already rich people to get richer and hide their money overseas but that cause Americans to be unemployed or to work for a lousy minimum wage. We need a president who can do the math and understand that American workers, the American middle class is being suckered while the big corporations produce goods with cheap foreign labor and don't create jobs here.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
75. I can't add to what you wrote. You said it all.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 08:37 PM
Jun 2014

I love Elizabeth Warren, but I'm not sure about her as president. If she were president, she'd be bogged down in all kinds of stuff that is beyond her current area of expertise, and she is so good at what she does. I'd like to see her in a really powerful position in the senate so that she could really focus on what has been her passion.

I'd like to see someone in the White House who is completely ready to support Sen. Warren in what she is doing, but who has some expertise in other areas--more of a progressive generalist.

What I'm looking for, and what I have been on the lookout for since 1980, is a new FDR. His heart was in the right place, he picked good people, and he backed them with incredible political skill. Some here mention that FDR was not brave in extending himself in favor of minorities, women and the LGBT community, but I think that if he were running things today, he would, and I would not accept anyone who did otherwise.

Anyway, if I were given the choice between Ms. Clinton and Ms. Warren, I'd take Ms. Warren. But I think that she wants to concentrate on what she is good at, and won't run. Alas.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
103. your concern is mine also.....
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 01:36 PM
Jun 2014

What does she stand for. At this point she is compromised by her past positions on issues.

And her association with "The Family" is very concerning. You don't dump those who "brung you to the Party" when you are at the level the Clintons are at this point in time. Her positions on Wall Street Bailouts and lack of prosecution of those who caused the financial meltdown and many other issues she's sided with Republicans on are a legacy which needs more scrutiny before she wins the nomination if she decides to run.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
19. It would be nice to see one of them break ranks and say
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:11 PM
Jun 2014

either

'None of your 'effin business' (or suitably diplomatic version of that)
or
'We have bigger problems than who I pray to at night, and the answers won't be found in that book. Can we talk about something more directly important to the nature of Politics and good Governance?'

That's all. Disappointing.


Granted, in fairness, Hillary has her own trend to buck, being female, and the dearth of female politicians that have inhabited the Oval Office to date. I guess I can't expect one person to shoulder every single load in sight.

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
23. HRC has been an "out" Methodist her whole life, but no Bible-thumper
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:15 PM
Jun 2014

Her religious feelings have never been a secret, but have never been trotted out ostentatiously the way so many RW-GOP politicians do. She's never invoked "Gawd's Will" for her successes or failures.

Methodists tend to be about "works" and there've been some really influential Methodist preachers who have influenced their flocks (college-age, especially) to go into social justice causes. Hillary's very public record her entire adult life shows she has engaged in social justice causes for women, for children, for minorities.

Will, I am completely baffled at the level of venom around here at the moment. Bringing up The Family and the Dominionists, for gods' sake -- what next, Satanic rituals?

For the second or third time in a week I find myself in agreement with you, LOL. It's almost like the good old days when DU had Bush to unite it.

 

Fred Gilmore

(80 posts)
25. Allowing Others To Know
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:19 PM
Jun 2014

That your thought processes are derived from fairy tales, myths, and lies, does not make one suitable for elected office.

Elected officials should be well versed in Science, Math, and History.

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
30. I think anyone familiar with HRC would know that she is well-versed in Science, Math and History
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:27 PM
Jun 2014

I'm an atheist who couldn't care less what anyone believes in or doesn't (except when they use their beliefs as a way to discriminate against people). However, people were told fables in early childhood back in the long ago as a way to teach them things--morality, caring, caution, planning, etc. As WillPitt said, if you strip out the ludicrous magic stuff and look solely at Jesus' teachings, the Bible, even if it is "fairy tales, myths and lies" still teaches good lessons just like fables do.

It's all in the interpretation and what people take from the Bible that's important, not whether or not it's factual. What does it hurt for someone to read the ten commandments in the Bible and then follow them? It hurts exactly no one and I think more people should follow the commandments than do now because it would make the world a better place.

 

Fred Gilmore

(80 posts)
41. Agreed!
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:50 PM
Jun 2014

I too am an atheist, and the one thing, above all others, that sets me off, is when someone says to me......"it's in the bible".........as if that makes it so. With the thousands of years of translations, the hundreds of thousands of interpretations, and the untold amounts of differing punctuations, it is my opinion that there is NOTHING worth the effort of reading in such a book. And certainly, there is nothing in such a book worth considering living one's life by.

As with any written document, the stories of the big book of lies can be, and are, interpreted to suit the agenda of the person doing the reading. I, for one, denounce the big book of lies as holding any useful purpose, other than to humor children not of sufficient age to reason on their own.

Further, I am a supporter of Hillary Clinton. I voted for her in 2008, and really wish that she had been elected POTUS. We would have far less rancor and divide had she won. The racism of the goopers has put a lid on any real attempts to make some of the "changes" promised. After all Barack Obama has really let down the base over his 6 years so far. Gittmo is still open, there are still troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the prior administration was given a free pass on the war crimes that they committed. These are some of the defining issues of that 2008 campaign, and they remain ignored or disregargded.

 

Swede Atlanta

(3,596 posts)
26. I don't have a problem with people claiming that their belief system has or had a
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:22 PM
Jun 2014

significant impact on their lives. As a Christian I would say that aside from my beliefs surrounding why I am on this earth, what I should strive to accomplish and what that all means to my eternal existence, the Bible's general moral principles have guided much of my life.

I believe that stealing is wrong, I believe that taking another's life is wrong (whether that is in war, with malice or negligence or by society in the form of capital punishment. The list goes on.

I have a problem with people who claim their religion has influenced their lives and they
* Cherry pick religious texts to attack and denigrate others while ignoring texts which proscribe other activities
* Talk the talk but don't walk the walk
* Allow religion to be so "fundamental" that they are unable to balance the "mystical" from the "practical". In other words they believe their religious texts or traditions to be so true and so infallible that no amount of science or logic are allowed

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
28. Well to state the obvious: it is pandering.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:25 PM
Jun 2014

I really doubt Clinton honestly believes what she said. It is no big deal. All of the establishment candidates are pandering asswipes. I've known that for at around 50 years. It is the depressing reality of a corrupt debased dysfunctional democratic republic.

Tikki

(14,537 posts)
29. Your grandmother taught it one way...there are other ways to teach it and many taught the other ways
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:26 PM
Jun 2014

don't end up with the kindness toward all message.


Tikki

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
32. As an LGBT person, who has had the hateful book and religion worshipers make it a point to try to
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:29 PM
Jun 2014

make my life as difficult as they possibly could over the course of my lifetime, I don't trust anyone who calls herself or himself a christian until I have a good handle on the actual "works" of their life.



I do tend to trust those Christians, or people of other spiritual paths, who genuinely believe that there is a living God, that God is Love, and go on to live their lives like they know it's a fact...these types of Christians/Others are among some of the finest people I know, and make good friends and acquaintances.

Atheists/Agnostics with a do unto others like you want them to do to you code of ethics are generally awesome people as well.

So, I simply don't have a clue as to where Mrs. Clinton stands in this respect.

That said, as far as I know, I don't know anything.

pretty flowers

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
34. It's not about influence. It's about literal interpretations.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:33 PM
Jun 2014

I agree that anyone who has read the bible and uses the 'stories' as a way to positively impact their life - or has read any other religious text and achieved the same, it's a really good thing. No problem there at all. The bible is a fascinating book if used as a learning tool.

Those who believe that each word is a literal interpretation, and that those who don't are going to hell - they're the ones who give the bible a bad name.

I was raised Catholic, but no longer think religion is necessary to have a connection to god, or the energy source to which we are connected. I still enjoy reading the bible sometimes.

 

kelliekat44

(7,759 posts)
35. I am with you on this one, Will. You don't even have to subscribe to the religion to recognize
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:34 PM
Jun 2014

the positive and inspiring words contained in many religious books. If it doesn't work for you than I say don't read it but certainly do not mock or criticize those for whom it works. We all could do worse than follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, whether you believe in Him or not.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
37. it's the glib, talking-out-of-both-sides-of-the-mouth sheer hypocrisy
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:36 PM
Jun 2014

the Bible's being used as a totem, not as a text: it's just a badge for the in-crowd, like when * said Jesus was his "favorite philosopher" (not man-God?)

and once you're In, you don't have to follow any of its precepts or keep up on hermeneutic debates; it's like how "Biblical literalism" has nothing to do with READING the thing, it's a mere group identifier

GusBob

(7,286 posts)
40. Jesus without the miracles. Like Thomas jefferson
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:39 PM
Jun 2014

It is good to read study and understand the Bible. The same could be said of mein kaumpf

Believing in the words is your own personal choice

Thespian2

(2,741 posts)
60. The only bible
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:30 PM
Jun 2014

worth reading and studying is the one written by Thomas Jefferson. All about the morality without the bullshit.

hlthe2b

(101,705 posts)
43. It was for MLK and Gandhi...
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:55 PM
Jun 2014

One need not "believe" in the teachings (New Testament) as anything more than philosophy but as far as I'm concerned, there is nothing in the actual tenets of Jesus that would not be a progressive value today.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
44. Leviticus? Genesis? Methuselah? Sodom & Gomorrah?
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:58 PM
Jun 2014

The ark story? Revelations? Etc. etc. Without specifics, if one says "the Bible," you know well that there is a bible belt in this country where a great many people take that shit seriously, and aren't just for the nice Gospels of love your neighbor and share your stuff. And of course a politician let's it all ride, let the rubes think what they will long as they vote for me. It's a deeply cynical move at a time when political discourse is so amazingly stupid already.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
46. You are right but sometimes the BS gets so tiresome that one
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:04 PM
Jun 2014

reacts emotionally and says something really negative about the BSer.

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
47. Big problem - you and your Grandmother are cherrypicking the pretty bits
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:04 PM
Jun 2014

I don't deny there are good and useful teachings in the Bible but there is also much that is hateful, nonsensical and ignorant - and that's just in the New Testament. You say that the NT is a pretty nifty guide book on how to be a good person but it also contains words that praise injustice, denigrate women and justify slavery. There is also your blanket condemnation "cretins abuse those texts to do exactly, precisely what Jesus said over and over not to do," but those same "cretins" can and do say the same for you and other liberal Christians - why, for example are you not following the Old Testament Laws? Jesus was pretty clear that his teachings took away not one jot or tittle from those laws.

 

WilliamPitt

(58,179 posts)
52. You say the NT justifies slavery.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:09 PM
Jun 2014

I know the Old Testament sure as hell does. Can you shoot me the verse in the NT where this happens? I don't remember it, and would have to do a pretty big re-evaluation if it's in there.

Mind you, I'm talking about the first four books, as explained above. That being said, if it's elsewhere in the NT, I would welcome the verse(s).

Thanks.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
69. You have to first understand that the ancient world was a slave economy and that slavery was normal.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 07:03 PM
Jun 2014

So within that normalcy, first ask, does the NT oppose slavery? Nope. No statements opposed to slavery in the NT. What does the NT say about slavery? Not much, but here are two examples:


Paul's violation of the Mosaic Code on slavery:

While in prison, Paul met a runaway slave, Onesimus, the property of a Christian -- presumably Pheliemon. He sent the slave back to his owner. This action is forbidden in Deuteronomy 23:15-16:


"Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee."

"He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him."

Rather than give the slave sanctuary, Paul returned him to his owner. Paul seems to hint that he would like Pheliemon to give Onesimus his freedom, but does not actually request it. See the Letter to Philemon in the Christian Scriptures.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm

Ephesians 6:5-9

5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; 6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7 With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.

https://bible.org/seriespage/25-submission-and-slavery-ephesians-65-9

The supporters of the slave economy of the south were on pretty solid ground claiming biblical support.

DFW

(54,050 posts)
49. A Jewish friend of mine learned Hebrew and Aramaic to read the Torah in the original
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:07 PM
Jun 2014

I asked him what for? He said it was basically philosophy, and he found something new every time he read it. There are something like 72* volumes and he is on his fourth time around. Not my thing, but it is his, and he has NEVER tried even once to force any of it on me. As I read neither Hebrew nor Aramaic, there is little danger of discussing passages with him except in the most general of terms, and we haven't even done that. But he finds great meaning in it, and if he does, I'm the last one to tell him to stop. You see, he is sensible enough to be the last one to tell me to start.

*I may have the number wrong, but there are a lot of them anyway.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
50. The Bible demands extreme honesty in all dealings.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:08 PM
Jun 2014

Here Hillary's characterization of the passage of DOMA:
"And what DOMA did is at least allow the states to act. It wasn't going yet to be recognized by the federal government. But at the state level there was the opportunity. And my husband, you know, was the first to say that the political circumstances, the threats that were trying to be alleviated by the passage of DOMA, thankfully were no longer so preeminent, and we could keep moving forward. And that's what we're doing."

Here is what Bill Clinton said when he signed DOMA:
"I have long opposed governmental recognition of same-gender marriages, and this legislation is consistent with that position.”
"And my husband, you know, was the fist to say...."

"Let your yes mean yes and your no mean no, for anything more comes from evil." That's actual Jesus talk from the Bible of your Gran.

Warpy

(110,900 posts)
54. Just because I don't get religion doesn't mean nobody else is allowed to get religion.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:15 PM
Jun 2014

Even the OT has hundreds of verses about being generous to anyone poorer than you are and only a few verses about slaves obeying their masters and none about venerating the rich.

There are actually worse books out there to influence a politician's life--Ayn Rand's paeans to greed and selfishness come to mind, as well as Coulter's polemics against the 99% of people in America who are nicer than she is.

I backed out of that thread at warp speed.

kentuck

(110,950 posts)
58. I remember as a child...
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:27 PM
Jun 2014

the Bible was the only book in our home. I loved to read Proverbs and the Four Gospels.

TNNurse

(6,911 posts)
62. I was raised in the Methodist church.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:43 PM
Jun 2014

I am pretty nice. I am liberal. I have more than a college education (I have two bachelor's degrees). I give to charity. I do not attend church but do not question that others do.

If you put "Pray for our Country" on your campaign sign, I will not vote for you. We should function by the Constitution and not the Bible. WE ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION"..... we were created for religious freedom and if you are trying to force your religious beliefs on others you are A LOUSY AMERICAN.

TexasBushwhacker

(20,043 posts)
65. It's not the first time she's brought up religion
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:51 PM
Jun 2014

I remember several years ago that she mentioned she had a personal prayer book that she kept with her through the years.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
66. Because I'd prefer my representatives to be influenced more by reason.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 06:56 PM
Jun 2014

Besides the Bible (and Koran) has a lot of really horrid shit in it.

You can't just pick and choose the parts you like.

And another, it is simply pandering to the religious morons in this country, those who think atheists are unamerican. Fuck them.

Because they foolishly believe (and our politicians at least pay lip service to the idea) that you can't be good without God, which is nonsense.

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
82. OK. For openers....
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 09:46 PM
Jun 2014

Faith and Reason are not mortal enemies, and there are several hundred years of philosophical discourse on the topic to back that up.

"You can't just pick and choose the parts you like." Uh, actually, you can. And I've never met a Christian who doesn't do this - consciously or unconsciously. Liberal Christians tend to emphasize the gospel and ignore most of that "Wrath of God" shit in the Old Testament. Conservative Christians obsess on some vague passages dealing with human sexuality and marital relationships, and mostly ignore the whole "pray in private" and "blessed are the peacemakers" shit in the New Testament.

Finally it's one thing to state that the Bible was a significant influence on your life (because for the overwhelming majority of Americans, that's the truth), and another thing to state that one can only develop a moral sense through Bible studies. Hillary said nothing even remotely of the sort, and I'm guessing that she doesn't believe anything even remotely of the sort.

Ilsa

(61,675 posts)
70. Thank you for posting this.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 07:24 PM
Jun 2014

I posted something similar in another thread, but not as eloquently.

I see no reason for DUers to not respect others' beliefs if they derive comfort from the Bible or feel like they can be a better person through its teachings.

All of the other major religions have in common in some form two requirements: 1) honor god; 2) treat others as you wish to be treated.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
76. I have no problem with Hill's Methodism.
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 08:49 PM
Jun 2014

The methodists I know range from theists to agnostics, with a fair number of deists in the middle. They are unified by the wisdom they find in Christ's words--and they would also acknowledge the wisdom in other religious traditions as well. And they are united by the idea of doing good works. Some may be homophobes or anti-choicers for all I know (and I haven't heard these notions expressed by any of them), but it is not part of the doctrine as far as I know.

No. I don't have any problem with Hillary's Methodism.

What I have a problem with is her association with the Christian Dominionist group known as "The Family." These people have their Christianity all tangled up with anti-labor, pro-free-market, hard-core capitalism and a belief that they have a divine mission to take over the world. Yes, Goddamit. I have a problem with that.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
78. My story's somewhat similar
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 09:09 PM
Jun 2014

I was raised by my grandmother. She was devoutly (albeit quietly) Christian and, more importantly, she actually tried to live Jesus's teachings. She spent her whole life looking after disabled and disturbed kids. First, she was a nursery nurse (what we'd now call a pediatric nurse), then she ran a children's home and then she convinced the local council to lease her a big Victorian house that she filled with foster kids. The last of those kids was with her right up until she went into hospital about two weeks prior to her death. She tried to live Jesus's teachings and I know, from the numerous times we argued about religion, that she drew a lot of comfort and inspiration from her faith.

I don't share that faith. I'm a Luciferian Satanist which means I worship the devil and think god is a sadistic maniac. Mine is an experiential faith (that is, constructed individually through experience with the deity) but it's still faith and the smug superiority of the anti-theists here drives me nuts. Partly because I'm bored with having my faith equated with Santa, partly because I'm sick of the assumption that all theists are fundies who take their holy book literally (my faith doesn't even have a holy book) but also because I'm a big believer in "whatever gets you through the night". If someone finds comfort or inspiration or strength through their faith, who the fuck are you to try and take that away from them?

TeeYiYi

(8,028 posts)
80. "George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq' ...
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 09:14 PM
Jun 2014
President told Palestinians God also talked to him about Middle East peace

Ewen MacAskill
Friday 7 October 2005 02.28 EDT



George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, according to a senior Palestinian politician in an interview to be broadcast by the BBC later this month.

Mr Bush revealed the extent of his religious fervour when he met a Palestinian delegation during the Israeli-Palestinian summit at the Egpytian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, four months after the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

Mr Bush, who became a born-again Christian at 40, is one of the most overtly religious leaders to occupy the White House, a fact which brings him much support in middle America.

More: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

This is why.

TYY




TBF

(31,919 posts)
94. In this country still -
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 08:30 AM
Jun 2014

no one will get elected to a major political office without promising to be Christian. Sadly, truth.

Dirty Socialist

(3,248 posts)
98. WHOA! WHOA! WHOA!
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 09:16 AM
Jun 2014

What are all these librul references from the Bible? It sounds like a Commie document! No Commie propaganda like the Bible should be read in 'Murica!

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