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MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 11:33 AM Jun 2014

Obama is damned if he does; damned if he doesn't.

The President has decided to sent a limited number of troops to Iraq to protect our embassy there and to assist in helping people leave Iraq who don't actually need to be there. For that, he is damned by many, who see this as a re-engagement in Iraq.

In another incident, from the past, troops were not sent to Benghazi to protect the diplomatic mission there. Disregarding the fact that there was not time to do so, he is damned by others for the four lives that were lost there.

Being President of the United States is a tough job, indeed. There is no decision you can make that will not be damned by one group or another. In the current situation, we have a duty to protect our embassy personnel and we have time to make that happen. So, the President has decided to send some people there to do just that. Perhaps we should rethink our micromanagement of international affairs from the comfort of our keyboards in situations like this.

What do you think?

48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Obama is damned if he does; damned if he doesn't. (Original Post) MineralMan Jun 2014 OP
There are no winners here, only losers... truebrit71 Jun 2014 #1
The winners may well be the 5000 people connected with MineralMan Jun 2014 #2
Definitely MohRokTah Jun 2014 #5
I really hope you're right. I'd *like* to believe so. n/t nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #32
And therein lies the rub....the wingnuts lost their collective minds about 4 deaths in Libya... truebrit71 Jun 2014 #6
Different folks flinging the poo, though in each situation. MineralMan Jun 2014 #17
Yes, they give a free pass to the 4000 deaths caused by their former leader Rex Jun 2014 #26
Would those be the same people helping Maliki torture people? grahamhgreen Jun 2014 #14
I do not know. I doubt that most people connected with the MineralMan Jun 2014 #15
Great! How many days will it take to evacuate the embassy? Weeks? Months? Years? Decades? grahamhgreen Jun 2014 #19
I do not know. Do you? MineralMan Jun 2014 #20
1 week, 1 month tops. grahamhgreen Jun 2014 #21
That was a considerably smaller operation. MineralMan Jun 2014 #23
I hope that he isn't sending troops to Iraq just because he got a ration of crap tularetom Jun 2014 #3
I doubt that is the reason. MineralMan Jun 2014 #4
Thank you for explaining that to him so well. Cha Jun 2014 #45
He's not. He's sending a small number of armed people to protect MineralMan Jun 2014 #16
Agree with you AND Boom Sound 416 Jun 2014 #7
Well, it seems like a CYA move, but that's my petty political interpretation... malthaussen Jun 2014 #8
The President kept the city-embassy in Iraq. morningfog Jun 2014 #9
Yep he can't win with these treasonous scumbags malaise Jun 2014 #10
I think this has all the makings of renewed Benghazi style attacks on the president LordGlenconner Jun 2014 #11
I think I am tired of whiny threads about how Obama is treated so unfairly. Vattel Jun 2014 #12
Really? There are tools on DU that can help you with that. MineralMan Jun 2014 #18
You'd think there was no "trash thread" button. nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #35
Well, I don't use it, and I don't use Ignore. MineralMan Jun 2014 #36
As someone who has been burned by Obama over and over. I can give him grahamhgreen Jun 2014 #13
This message was self-deleted by its author Rex Jun 2014 #24
So we control the world from the comfort of our keyboards? Rex Jun 2014 #22
Of course we don't, nor did I say we did. MineralMan Jun 2014 #25
Nope you got me, thought it was totally serious. Rex Jun 2014 #27
Even though I'm a prolific writer on DU, I have no illusions MineralMan Jun 2014 #30
Keep writing. You are needed by many of us to keep us bolstered in our beliefs. lumpy Jun 2014 #37
That's very kind of you to say. MineralMan Jun 2014 #43
Yes this is a fun place full of some very interesting people. Rex Jun 2014 #39
I think and hope you're right. MineralMan Jun 2014 #41
I kinda think that'll be his legacy "d*mned he did or d*mned he didn't..... a kennedy Jun 2014 #28
I don't think so. I believe that once his two terms are up, MineralMan Jun 2014 #29
+1000 Louisiana1976 Jun 2014 #31
Total agreement.. without a doubt. thanks MM Cha Jun 2014 #46
I wish I could recommend this OP a million times. PragmaticLiberal Jun 2014 #33
One time is good. Thanks! MineralMan Jun 2014 #34
You're right treestar Jun 2014 #38
You are creating a false situation. former9thward Jun 2014 #40
I'm not in Baghdad and neither are you. MineralMan Jun 2014 #42
Me? former9thward Jun 2014 #44
PUNISH him by electing more liberal democrats across ever race IronLionZion Jun 2014 #47
Great suggestion! MineralMan Jun 2014 #48
 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
5. Definitely
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 11:43 AM
Jun 2014

Obama cares about doing what's right here, not in pleasing anybody for any political purpose. He's protecting the American embassy, as well he should, but he is not engaging in what is 100% and internal Iraq affair.

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
6. And therein lies the rub....the wingnuts lost their collective minds about 4 deaths in Libya...
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 11:49 AM
Jun 2014

...and here the President is being proactive about safeguarding 5000 and he STILL gets shit thrown at him...

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
17. Different folks flinging the poo, though in each situation.
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 12:27 PM
Jun 2014

There's always someone flinging poo at President Obama. I guess it comes with the job.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
26. Yes, they give a free pass to the 4000 deaths caused by their former leader
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 03:29 PM
Jun 2014

but howl at the moon over 4 deaths that were unavoidable...hence why wingnuts are cray cray and not to be trusted.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
15. I do not know. I doubt that most people connected with the
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 12:22 PM
Jun 2014

embassy in Iraq have anything to do with any such things. I also doubt that you have any real knowledge of it, either. My own opinion is that we should simply pull every last American out of Iraq and close the door behind us. I also believe that we should never have gone to any country in that region with armed troops or meddled with the affairs in any country in the Middle East. The fact is that we did, however.

My beliefs, however, have nothing to do with the need to protect embassy personnel and assist them in evacuating. That is a responsibility we have and one that President Obama is very aware of.

ETA: In reading the two articles at your links, one of them from 2011, I don't see where they support your claims. Perhaps you could point out the passages from them that you believe support your assertions.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
20. I do not know. Do you?
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 12:34 PM
Jun 2014

The logistics of that aren't something for which I have any expertise at all. Evacuating embassies during an active conflict can't be an easy thing to do. So, we'll probably have to wait to find out. I'm sure it will depend on many factors, but I do not know what those factors might be.

If you do, maybe you can lay out the process for us.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
23. That was a considerably smaller operation.
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 03:26 PM
Jun 2014

Less than 300 people needed to be evacuated. Reports have about 5000 in Baghdad. It could be quite an operation. We'll see.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
3. I hope that he isn't sending troops to Iraq just because he got a ration of crap
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 11:37 AM
Jun 2014

for not sending troops to Benghazi.

That would be the wrong lesson for him to take away from the Libyan incident. It sounds like something George Bush would do, not what we expect from this president.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
4. I doubt that is the reason.
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 11:40 AM
Jun 2014

The State Department is part of the Executive branch of government. The safety of State Department employees and contractors is the President's responsibility. President Obama appears to take such responsibilities seriously. It is currently a very dangerous situation in Baghdad. I cannot imagine any way he could avoid sending armed forces to protect those people.

I think it was an easy decision for him. I hope the force is adequate for the job and that all remain safe and those who need to evacuate are evacuated. Benghazi was a very different situation.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
16. He's not. He's sending a small number of armed people to protect
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 12:23 PM
Jun 2014

people associated with our embassy there. That's his responsibility, and he's acting on that responsibility.

 

Boom Sound 416

(4,185 posts)
7. Agree with you AND
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 11:51 AM
Jun 2014

He should just go on tv and make his case rather than let fox and friends make it for him and damn him either way.

malthaussen

(17,065 posts)
8. Well, it seems like a CYA move, but that's my petty political interpretation...
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 11:55 AM
Jun 2014

I made the point elsewhere that if Mr Obama thinks this will forestall criticism, he's whistling in the dark. But as I say, that's my petty political interpretation.

It could be seen as provocation, but I think the other guys are gonna do what they want to do no matter what we do. It was observed elsewhere that 275 Marines will "make them think long and hard" before they do anything. Maybe so. It certainly will have to be factored into any moves contemplated -- if any were contemplated. It should render moot any plans there might have been for a small unit attack.

Ultimately, better to have them there than not, although that doesn't mean things can't and won't go wrong. The real difficulty, I think, Mineral Man, is that too many people -- including, alas, those with power and influence, think that safety can be "ensured" in a case like this. Or affect that they do, anyway, which gives them latitude to criticize whatever is done/not done. You know, our whole Terrorist Industrial Complex is rooted in selling this idea that we can be "safe" from terrorism, that if we just throw enough money at the problem and surrender most of our liberties, we can keep the bad men from blowing us up. It's painful that so many people seem to want to buy what's being sold.

-- Mal

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
9. The President kept the city-embassy in Iraq.
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 11:56 AM
Jun 2014

The conditions in Iraq have been known for a very long time. That this sectarian war has reached a tipping point is not a surprise. The city-embassy could have been closed, it also could have been reduced in population and could have been evacuated long ago.

He owns this "emergency." The 275 troops going back are his decision and coupled with military action that will follow.

Anytime someone talks about the comfort from their keyboards, I know they are suspending their critical thought process.

 

LordGlenconner

(1,348 posts)
11. I think this has all the makings of renewed Benghazi style attacks on the president
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 11:57 AM
Jun 2014

Only this time it'll be coming from the far left.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
18. Really? There are tools on DU that can help you with that.
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 12:29 PM
Jun 2014

DUers can control their DU experience. That's the genius of this website.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
36. Well, I don't use it, and I don't use Ignore.
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 04:39 PM
Jun 2014

If I want to ignore something or someone, I just don't bother to read that. On DU, you can always expect to see almost anything. That's what makes it all interesting, I think. Best of all, you can post replies to anything you like. What a deal! Thanks, Skinner!

 

grahamhgreen

(15,741 posts)
13. As someone who has been burned by Obama over and over. I can give him
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 12:10 PM
Jun 2014

a pass on this if the troops stay within the mission of protecting personnel as the leave.

But if the next step is air strikes in league with the so-called axis-of-evil Iran, or further escalation, well, then, I guess Obama is vindicating Bush on the whole war... torture, kit, and kaboodle!

If he bombs it, he owns it. It will put our party back 10 years. We will get killed in 2014.

The end result of any escalation is simply more blood and treasure lost (WITH NO ONE SCREAMING ABOUT THE DEFICIT OR WHO WILL PAY FOR IT), and then 10 or 20, 0r 50 years from now, we will withdraw under the same conditions.

The fact that our decisions from our keyboards are more cogent than those being made in Washington is simply a fact, born out by history. End the war for oil. Prosecute the torturers. Expand renewables, it's a no brainer.

Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #13)

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
22. So we control the world from the comfort of our keyboards?
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 03:25 PM
Jun 2014

I think you need to make up something better than that. What a ridiculous notion, we reply to each other on one of millions of forums on the WWW...it is beyond silly to think we make any difference by our opinions here. I would say totally ridiculous.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
25. Of course we don't, nor did I say we did.
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 03:28 PM
Jun 2014

Our keyboard antics are ineffective in actually accomplishing anything much. That takes actual people on the actual scene actually doing something. I was being sarcastic, which I suspect you already knew.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
30. Even though I'm a prolific writer on DU, I have no illusions
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 04:13 PM
Jun 2014

at all about the effect of my writings. They have none, in reality, nor do the writings of any other DUer. DU is a place to air our opinions, only, and they don't have any particular weight outside of DU. Posting on DU is not activism, nor does it influence the operations of government. Anyone who believes otherwise is fooling him or herself.

My activism in the 21st Century is in electoral work within my own legislative districts, state and federal. Along with being very active in Minnesota's caucus and convention system, I engage in a wide variety of GOTV efforts, mostly within my own precinct in my current city. That has positive effects that can actually be observed with every election. My state Senate district incumbent is in office, in part, due to my work at the district convention and in campaign efforts for both the primary and general election in 2012. Of that, I'm certain, since he was a most unlikely candidate at the 2012 caucuses and district convention, which failed to endorse anyone for that office. That caused the incumbent state Senator to withdraw his candidacy, and Mr. Foung Hawj (pronounced Fong Her) campaigned hard in the primary election and defeated a strong opponent and was then elected in the general election. He's now doing a very good job, and is very likely to continue to be elected down the road.

Individual activism has its greatest impact in legislative and local elections, where it can alter the course of events. I've been engaged in such activism since the 1960s, along with other activism at earlier stages of my life. Now, at age 68, I no longer participate in broader activism, but remain very active in election activism at the local level.

DU is interesting. I like to write, and I like politics, so it's a great outlet for me. But, I have no illusions. It is just one of many political forums on the Internet. It has nothing to do with the outcome of national elections. Nothing. We ramble on here and second guess lots of major political topics, but it pretty much ends right here.

However, if every active DUer were equally active in their own districts, it could make a big difference. I remain hopeful that will be the case.

GOTV 2014 and Beyond! That's activism that works.

lumpy

(13,704 posts)
37. Keep writing. You are needed by many of us to keep us bolstered in our beliefs.
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 04:44 PM
Jun 2014

We need writers who can plow through speculative garbage and come forth with something closer to the truth.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
39. Yes this is a fun place full of some very interesting people.
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 06:11 PM
Jun 2014

I try my best, but at times sarcasm goes completely over my head.

We will CRUSH the GOP later on this year, they are weak and desperate to play these stupid games against Hillary so soon...and with Cantor out of office it changes the dynamics of the elections in November.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
29. I don't think so. I believe that once his two terms are up,
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 03:59 PM
Jun 2014

he'll be a well-beloved past President, and that he'll be active as a public figure. I can see him at some point sitting on the SCOTUS bench if we keep electing Democratic Presidents. And we should do that for a long time to come. I truly believe that Barack Obama's legacy is going to be a very good one, and that it will improve over the years.

former9thward

(31,802 posts)
40. You are creating a false situation.
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 06:21 PM
Jun 2014

That being that troops are needed to protect the embassy. Baghdad International is open and not under threat. If the embassy is endangered why not evacuate the embassy now? 5000 people can be moved out very quickly so why not do it? Why wait until the situation deteriorates? This is not Saigon, May, 1975 unless people want to create that situation.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
42. I'm not in Baghdad and neither are you.
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 07:41 PM
Jun 2014

I have no detailed intelligence on the situation, and neither do you. I know who does, though. I think I'll give those folks the edge over you. Really.

former9thward

(31,802 posts)
44. Me?
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 08:13 PM
Jun 2014

There are reporters in Baghdad. Are they suppressing what is going on there? This is a link to the airport. http://www.baghdad-airport.com/Departures.cfm

Situation normal. Are they faking it?

IronLionZion

(45,256 posts)
47. PUNISH him by electing more liberal democrats across ever race
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 09:53 AM
Jun 2014

GOTV!

Yes, I agree that any leadership decision will get disagreement from someone, always. First rule of leadership is its always your fault. I trust Obama and most Democrats to do the right thing on matters like this.

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