It could have been me wielding the knife 30+ years ago. I am fortunate that it wasn't. I understand what it feels like to be bullied, a person can completely lose their wits from constant abuse.

n/t

Howard Fast wrote that he used to get beat up and harrassed by some kids, and one day he got confronted by them, went back into his house and came out with an 8 inch steak knife and told them "if you ever touch me again, I will kill you".

Better though, to just make the threat rather than do the actual stabbing.

Last edited Thu Jun 19, 2014, 11:48 AM - Edit history (1)

And you say it's a case of self defense?

Despicable. This place falls even further every time I look.

Also, I read it. Here's a few parts that stood out to me.

“There was two people fighting and one just pulled out a knife and stabbed him. He stopped, and he went back, and he just dropped to the floor and started bleeding. And then the security guard and all of them just came and tried to help him, and they brought the boy with the knife into the school.”

“The security put his gloves on and he started to help him. And then a teacher went to her car, and she got a towel so they could stop the bleeding,” added witness Jaylene Then.

Police said he was stabbed multiple times.

“It was self-defense what he did!”

As for Crump, he was supposed to graduate from the eighth grade next week. But now, his family has begun planning his funeral.

Stabbing someone multiple times, murdering A CHILD, is NOT self-defense.

Here's a few parts that stood out to me.

suicide two weeks ago because of the bullying. When you are at the point where you are attempting to kill yourself because of bullying, you get hospitalized and the very day you get back you get beaten again, I'm pretty sure to a 14 year old it seemed like he had nothing to lose.

Have some compassion for the child that was being bullied, too.

The entire point of my post is that the victim--the dead victim--won't get the chance to recover.

DU demonstrates again and again that no point is so obvious that someone won't find a way to miss it. Well done.

You are grateful that the bullied child will have a chance to recover.

These were your exact words. Pretty clear meaning. If you meant something else, you should have said it.

Notice I rather specifically didn't call the bullied child "the victim."

Sometimes a lot more can be said by omission.
And sometimes it will sail right over the reader's head, as is the case here.

Bullied Teen stab's and kills tormenter.

Given that this topic is about the actions of a bullied teen, then it's a good bet that anyone saying 'bullied teen' or 'bullied child' will be referring to this person.

It's little things like this you need to look out for. You need to be clear in a post, and remove chances of confusion. Given the topic title, your choice of words - Rather the exact person you are referring to - is rather confusing.

In your zeal to demonstrate your righteousness, you're actually attacking one of the people whose opinion on this matter aligns with yours? Do you win a lot of allies like that?

You need to rethink how you pick your battles.

As I've said, in context using the words 'bullied child' refer to the one who did the murder, and not the child who was murdered.

I've pointed out how easy it is for your 'true' meaning to be confused for something else. If you are referring to the child who was murdered, and not his killer, then you can edit that post for clarification.

was that whereas the bullied child will have a chance to recover, the dead child will not.

He was assuming everyone would catch the obvious sarcasm without having to hit them over the head with it.

Is apathy for victims.

I'll shed a tear for the murdered, not the one who decided to murder a child.

It's possible to have compassion for criminals and that victims.

Try it sometime.

Doesn't change the fact that a child is dead, and any applauding such are monsters in serious need of a psychological evaluation.

Well that's ALWAYS useful.

"this place falls even further..." for others. People should read the article before posting; otherwise, one's comment may look a little ridiculous &, possibly, a little trollish. Just a tip.

Sounds like self-defense to me!!! n/t
I absolutely agree!
Yep, I can certainly relate to that! n/t
+1000s

I've read the article. A child was murdered. And people are applauding it.

Sickening, and proof of how far this site has fallen. Usually I'd have to go to a RW site to see people clapping about a child being killed.

It is possible that Estevez took out his troubles on someone less aggressive than his tormentors, but the facts are not yet clear.

That isn't in question. The kid tried to commit suicide - that isn't in question, either. He was afraid to go back to school, and had been beaten and robbed. None of that is in question.

This whole situation could have been avoided if some of the adults in the room and school would have stepped in and stopped the bullying. It's a tragedy - two lives are ruined by inaction.

the kid was stabbed to death.

If he or any other adult6s bothered to protect the bullied child, maybe the other child would still be alive.

Both of those children were failed by the adults who were supposed to provide a safe environment.

Think of Eddie Haskell. Mrs. Cleaver thought he was a wonderful boy. He bullied the Beaver every chance he got.

I don't know if this applies to Timothy, but it could.

14 year olds simply do not have fully developed adult brains, period.

required by law to attend school with the victim/tormentor.

there should be separate rules when you are required to be face to face with a bully.

after he was hospitalized for trying to commit suicide by hanging himself. The bully jumped him yet again the first day back. I can completely understand why he felt there was no way out. You can only be beaten up, robbed and bullied before something gives, and this kid nearly took his own life because of it.

Then he gets released from the hospital, forced to go to school, and it starts all over.

but ,my impression so far is the bully really had it coming. Not only that, this particular situation ended better than most, and better than it was headed when the kid tried to commit suicide.

Here's the deal: when you bully someone, you take your chances that they will fight back.

tried to commit suicide by hanging himself and was hospitalized. He said he didn't want to go to school because of the bullies, and this was his first day back. The one he stabbed jumped him and punched him right after his first day back.

I don't see how that is an adult charge, and frankly, what he needs is counseling, not prison. How many times should this kid be beaten, robbed and tormented nearly to committing suicide before he takes the matter into his own hands?

He's 14 for heaven's sake.

No group jumping on board to ban kitchen knives?

Both are inanimate objects and they can be used for good or bad. It all depends on whose hands they are in. It isn't the weapon as much as it is the user.

One thing that gun control advocates tend to ignore is that a gun or a knife can be used to stop an attack from a person who intends to severely injure or kill a victim. Often when the victim shows he is armed, the attacker flees.

I've punched thousands and thousands of holes in paper targets and a few aluminum cans. I have never shot or killed a living creature with one of my firearms nor to I wish to do so.

Regardless of whether a particular gun is used for such neutral purposes as perforating cans and paper targets, the gun's primary purpose is to launch a projectile at high velocity with the intent to damage, destroy, injure or kill its target.

A knife can indeed be used to kill, but it can also be used to heal and to create. As a tool, it has a far wider range of uses than does a firearm, so direct comparisons between the two are of limited value.

It is possible that the only reason I am here to reply to your post is because my mother was wise enough to have a tiny revolver in her purse one night in the 1920s.

She was walking back to her house after work when a man who had been hiding behind some bushes rushed her. She fired two shots over his head and he turned and ran.

Where I live now in an economically depressed country in Florida many people hunt deer and feral hog in order to put meat on their table. If they didn't we would be overrun with deer and feral hog. Even so there are so many deer in this area that traffic accidents involving deer are common. Both my son in law and daughter as well as a neighbor two houses from me have had such accidents. I barely avoid one on the outskirts of a neighboring town when four deer ran out directly in front of my car. Fortunately I was only going 35 mph as that was the speed limit at the town limit.

It's also not uncommon to discover a poisonous snake such as a rattlesnake in your yard. A shotgun can eliminate that threat quickly if you live in a rural area.

I will agree that a knife can be used for more things than a firearm. That's why I always have one on my person and I use it many times in a day. However there are plenty of good uses for a firearm.

As I wrote:

was not a good use of a firearm? Would she have been able to stop the attack as effectively with a knife?

Or that the fact that many people in my area put quality meat on the table for their family and help insure a healthy population of deer in the area is not a good use of a firearm? It's hard to hunt deer or hog with a knife, although there are individuals who hunt feral hog with a knife.

Or the fact that my daughter killed a pigmy rattler in her yard with a shotgun before it bit her young children or dogs was not a good use of a firearm? I wouldn't want to try to kill a rattlesnake with a knife.

Sometime today I will get a cardboard box with a shipment from Amazon. I will probably use my knife to open it. I may decide to peel an apple, slice a tomato or dice an onion and my knife will be handy. My knife can cut and strip wire if I need to accomplish that task. I could even shave with my knife, but I have a good safety razor that better fitted for that job.

Both firearms and knives are tools. Both have different uses. Unfortunately in the wrong hands both can do evil.

You wrote:

Some involve injuring or killing a person or animal for good reasons but some involve punching holes in paper targets or aluminum cans. A pistol or rifle target is designed to be used as a target for a firearm so the fact that a bullet or bullets punches holes in it doesn't mean that it is damaged, destroyed or injured. The target was made to have holes punched in it.

Often when a firearm is used for legitimate self defense it is not necessary to shoot an attacker to deter him. When a victim shows he/she is armed the attacker breaks off his attack and flees. Therefore in such cases the firearm proved to be an effective tool despite the fact that it was never fired.

I think that I largely disagree with your viewpoint as it insinuates that all firearms are evil. The good or evil that a firearm does is determined by the person whose hands it is in.

I have no problem with your definition of a gun's primary purpose.

Upon rereading my posts, I see that I left that point sort of vague. Unintentional, but it created confusion where there shouldn't have been any.

but still it was a polite back and forth. That is somewhat of an accomplishment in a debate on firearms here on DU.

No problem. I was just passing time while waiting to see what Obama had to say about Iraq. I would hate to have his job.

shoots the guy next door or across the street when all he meant to do was target shoot. One guy picked up his gun the wrong way just in the last couple of days and killed the guy next door. How about the guy who shot off his own penis? on and on and on.......

While handling a firearm you also should be constantly aware the it is an extremely dangerous item. You should practice muzzle safety and keep your finger off the trigger unless you wish to hear a loud noise.

You also have to realize that even though you may have many years of firearm experience in your past, you can still have an accidental discharge.

It's not rocket science but following the safety rules is EXTREMELY important.

what is a safe direction? If you point it in the air, the bullet will eventually come down. If you point it away from people in your house, it may go through the wall and shoot the guy next door. If you point it at the floor, the bullet can kill the person downstairs. I have heard of target shooting zones whose berms were not high enough and the bullet killed someone on the other side of blocks away who got killed or wounded. There are no safe directions. A bullet can travel for a mile or more can't it? How can you be sure that no one is in that area and will not walk into that area????

Here's a couple of definitions for muzzle safety.

the guy who shot off his own penis sure had taken those safety measures, if he was the cop that I remember his being. Whoever it was certainly thought it was safe. A number of those accidental shootings are cops who must certainly be trained gun owners!!! There just is no such thing as a safe gun.

I used to target shoot at an indoor police range that was open to the public. The police would qualify one night a week when the range was closed to the public.

One Saturday morning I arrived at the range and noticed a new TV in the lobby. I mentioned this to the range master who was a retired police officer. He told me that the old TV had been shot by the police firearms instructor when he was loading, unloading his Glock pistol. The range master said that the instructor said he had a "slam fire."

One month later I came again in on a Saturday morning and noticed the Pepsi machine in the lobby was had a sign on it that said it wasn't working. The range master laughed and told me that the same firearms instructor had managed to kill the Pepsi machine when loading, unloading his Glock and that the individual was no longer the firearms trainer for the police.

Several months after that the range master pointed out a hole in the carpet of the lobby. Apparently a cop who was qualifying managed to have a negligent discharge while holstering his Glock.

Eight feet from the Pepsi machine was a sand trap that was designed to be used when loading or unloading a firearm.

The instructor agreed with me that the civilians who used the range were far safer than the cops.

In passing a good number of the civilians who visited the range were far better at shooting than the average cop who only qualifies once a year and never visits the range to practice.

***

I will agree with you that firearms are extremely dangerous items. If you own one, you have to be very aware of that fact every time you handle it.

One time a friend stopped by my house and we discussed handguns. I showed him one of my Colt .45 pistols. Of course I checked to see if it was loaded. During the next hour we talked about target shooting and several times I picked up the pistol to demonstrate something.

When the visit ended and he was leaving he laughed and told me, "You checked to see if that pistol was loaded five times while we were talking, every time you picked it up."

I told him, "If the weapon leaves your hands, it's wise to check it again when you pick it up."

I assume all guns are always loaded until I check them.

in a totally different world than when the second amendment was written. We are not out in the country, we live much closer together. We don't hunt for our dinner. Shooting a machine might be funny but when it is another innocent person, it isn't funny!!! Just count up the small children who are shot/killed each year accidentally.

I live in a fairly poor rural area of Florida and many people here hunt deer and feral hog to put meat in their freezers. I remember talking to a lady in her late 60s who was bragging about the first deer she shot this year in the black powder season. I also remember going to a Christmas party and meeting a young girl who was 14 or 15. She had just bagged her first deer ever.

I am not a hunter, however I do enjoy target shooting handguns. It's a very challenging sport that often takes years to develop a good level of proficiency.

Obviously every young child that dies in a shooting accident is a tragedy. It's not all that difficult for parents to properly secure their firearms.

Some argue that the Second Amendment was not written just for hunters, target shooters and self defense. They point out that it is always possible that a tyrant or dictator may take control of our nation. I feel that that is unlikely but I could be wrong. Of course it is quite possible that an armed rebellion would be quickly squashed. However recently we have seen dictators in various nations lose power. Much probably depends on if such a rebellion would have a significant level of popular support. If not, I doubt that it would have any chance of success. At any rate I don't feel that such a popular uprising will occur in my lifetime.

in a shooting accident........ what is it when the ones shooting the kid is the parent or an uncle as in a recent 'accident'? People get so confident and comfortable with their guns and so sure in their belief the gun isn't loaded that they shoot their own kids. I'm sure they felt safe. As for living in a rural area, more and more of our population aren't living in a rural area. The closer your neighbor is, the more likely you will shoot him 'accidentally'.

I also realize that since I have been using firearms for well over 40 years I may over confident when I handle one. I remind myself of this every time I pick up a firearm. I consider every firearm I handle to be loaded until I check it and if it leaves my hands, I check it again when I pick it up.

I also realize that alcohol and firearms are a bad mix so I don't handle a weapon if I have had a couple of drinks.

Most accidental discharges are in reality negligent discharges. In my opinion anyone who buys a firearm or ammunition should have to show proof that they have had firearms safety training.

Recently the sale of firearms has skyrocketed largely due to the efforts of gun control advocates to pass another assault weapons ban. Firearms of all types flew off the shelfs of gun stores and there were long lines of people waiting to enter gun shows. Many of the new owners of these weapons have little knowledge of gun safety or experience in using these weapons. Many will fail to properly secure their weapons to insure that children can not access them. This will undoubtedly lead to many tragedies.

In a nation with 80,000,000 gun owners and 300,000,000 firearms, it would make sense to me to teach gun safety in high school along with a class on first aid. Of course gun control advocates oppose firearm safety training in schools as they fear that it will generate interest in owning these weapons. They may have a point, but I feel that in the long run it could reduce avoidable accidents.

a pair of scissors and if stopped and asked why say you hate when threads on your clothes come undone so you trim them off.

Scissors = knife.

You can make up similar stories for other common objects that can function as knives.

Also you're talking about carrying. When it comes to sale and manufacture it's even worse. We could easily live in a world where the sale of guns was illegal. No one ever is going to pass a law where kitchen knives are illegal to sell.

you can get in a world of trouble if caught carrying a pair of scissors in public.

18 or older and carrying on a semi professional demeanor with a good explanation? No. And that doesn't even address the concealment aspect. Plus small folding pocket knives are allowed in the UK and if you think outlawing all guns is nearly impossible outlawing small pocket knives is going to take divine intervention.

As for guns being illegal means that a lot of illegal guns will flow into the country is nonsense. As you said many drugs are illegal and get here anyway. Are you doubting they would be even more common if they were legalized? Same deal goes for guns. Outlaw and them some will still get through and some dedicated people will still build homemade guns. Will they be less common though? Yes.

As for predictions about future gun legislation... never say never. Stranger things have happened. No one ever would have predicted same sex marriage would happen any time soon 20 years ago.

Twenty years ago I would have never predicted that it would happen. Twenty years ago I would have been against it. Today I see no problems with it.

As far as knives much depends on what state you are in and where you are at. I've carried a fairly large hunting knife in a belt holster in the small rural Florida town where I live and it attracted no attention. It's legal. However if I open carried carried the same knife in downtown Tampa I might be stopped and questioned by the authorities. It is possible that I could be arrested and have to hire an attorney to argue the law for me. Therefore in large urban areas of Florida, i simply carry a concealed knife which is legal since I have a concealed weapons permit. Unlike most other states the Florida carry permit allows the holder to carry a variety of weapons.

thousands of knives in prisons. I'd be surprised if there were even a dozen guns (not counting guards of course). It's easy and cheap to make a knife it is not easy and cheap to make a gun. All one requires is something sharp or something that can be made sharp by grinding.

Moreover many everyday household devices function as knives - screwdrivers, scissors, etc.

in CA who recently committed mass murder and killed half the victims with a knife. In Austin, TX 5 were murdered with a car. No, your attempt to force-fit a narrative is the "fail."

Since you're fond of pejorative use of the word "controllers" to denigrate people who call for sensible gun regulation, would you be ok with the term "zealot" to describe people who resist such legislation?

I would hate to offend anyone's delicate sensibilities.

Noticeable number of those as well, in DU. You would agree?

"Zealot?" That's a breath of fresh air compared to vast numbers of penis, gun-humper, etc. remarks. If it's a trade-off, I'll take it!

As to "delicate sensibilities," the special unwritten dispensation to just blow it out anyway you want in GD -- if it involves Guns Deplored -- has set the tone of the debate within the new DU. Your concerns might be of value on a site with editing powers like the old DU, but now they are merely quaint.

My enthusiasm must remain unbridled.

and still you feel the need to bitch about how the poor gun owners are under attack. I find that beneath contempt.

and have certain opinions on people who hold those opinions.

Usually the person holding the firearm manages to pull the trigger.

Accidental discharges where the trigger snags on something usually involve handguns that are not in properly designed holsters. In my opinion there is not real reason for an honest citizen to not use a quality holster that protects the trigger. Criminals usually avoid holsters as they often throw a gun away while chased and don't want the cops to catch them with an empty holster.

From the link:

Nice try though.

an unsafe firearm.

I will agree that it takes more training and more commonsense to safely handle a firearm than to handle a knife. It also helps to be sober when handling a firearm or even a sharp knife. The shooter had a blood alcohol level of 0.079 when tested FOUR HOURS AFTER THE SHOOTING. Chances are he was WELL over that when he picked up the pistol by the trigger.

You can spin it any way you want.

Without the gun the father would still be alive.

that this was no accident.

We don't excuse stupidity as an excuse for a tragic incident involving a firearm. The individual picked the weapon up by the trigger and was amazed when it went off. He was also under the influence of alcohol and was quite possibly well above the legal limit to drive when he handled the pistol. Responsible gun owners know that alcohol and firearms are a BAD mix.

Why won't you acknowledge the part about the existence of the gun being the reason the guy was killed?

happened. I also pointed out that his having the pistol was illegal as he was a convicted felon.

I will guess that you advocate that all civilian owned firearms should be banned and confiscated.

That's a noble goal but perhaps unfortunately it is unrealistic at this time in our nation. It reminds me of Don Quixote tilting at windmills.

I don't like guns and I think owning one is stupid, but I don't think they should be banned or confiscated.

I personally know to many people that have been harmed by guns. I can give you examples of responsible gun owners that have had "accidents" resulting in injury or death if you want them.

A wise old man once told me that there are two types of shooters. Those who have had a negligent discharge and those who will.

That's why practicing muzzle safety is so important.

I'm done here.

Please.

and the school can't even prevent this from happening right outside the school? WTF? Tragic for everyone concerned.

They know this. The best a victim can do when no one wants to act (lest they become the center of controversy and attack) is to leave the school. Bullies have status, strong self-esteem, and power, and get more with each "success."

And everybody's talking about them, everywhere.

Your statement is very well stated, and I believe quite correct.

Can't link on this hand-held. Blows open the mythology surrounding bullies.

This is a tragic event, I never understood the my set of a bully, was it lack of home training or abuse at home that drove this kids to bully another kid? I’m not stranger to bullying but when It happened I didn’t want to kill anyone I just altered my routine to lessen the encounters, not saying that would work for everybody but there has to be a better answer then kill people.

The more I could avoid his presence, the better.

A few years later a judge gave him an ultimatum. Join the Army or go to jail. Karma caught up to him and he was killed in Vietnam.