General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIs the c word a word you would like to see bantered about DU often?
As if the word as used in the US isn't a misogynistic slur. Do you believe you should be able to call any woman or male one.... at any time, in any context?
As a community standards issue, I would like to gauge the communities thoughts on this? We are mostly self moderated. We see George Carlin being touted and his 7 words you can't say on television. So, I assume there must be support for it unfettered usage here. And any objection to that is a violation of free speech in some minds.
Of course context should be taken into consideration. Ie if the word itself is being discussed, so people know what you are talking about. So, please let's not get side tracked.
Or is it a free speech issue here on DU, where it should be no holds barred?
Yes = you would like to see it bantered about on DU in any context
No = you don't want to see it bantered about on DU.
Please try to refrain from calling me the PC Police, word police, prudet (sic LOL), needing a fainting couch, a book burner, a squelcher of free speech. I am looking for honest opinions.
24 votes, 3 passes | Time left: Unlimited | |
Yes | |
4 (17%) |
|
No | |
20 (83%) |
|
3 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll |
Egnever
(21,506 posts)The only reason any word would bother me in the least is the effect it has on others, I am rarely if ever bothered by any word or its usage.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I was a bit taken aback when I saw that in GD.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)If there were, it would be a TOS violation worthy of admin PPR'ing the poster.
So long as admin chooses not to do so and also chooses to leave it up to DU jurors who may have just joined the site to troll, the word may be unacceptable to some of us but the owners of this site have endorsed the usage here.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)unless we're selected for the jury.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)and that leaves it to admin who have pretty much been MIA on this issue.
That of course is their prerogative as owners of the site.
Violet_Crumble
(35,954 posts)If it isn't, there's not even a need to look for a reason to leave the OP unlocked. Using the c-word (and I hate having to be coy and not just say the word) isn't a SOP violation. It's up to juries. And if I were on a jury, I'd vote to hide if another DUer or women in general were called that, but I wouldn't vote to hide if it were aimed at conservative extremists, part of an article that's being copied and pasted, or a discussion of the usage of the word. It's about context for me, but I don't have a really strong reaction to the word, probably because it's used reasonably commonly where I live, and in a whole lot of different contexts...
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)based on offensive word usage, or homophobia or sexism or racism or any other -ism.
The SOP does say "no whining about DU" except nearly every alert on that basis ends up as a LEAVE.
I read the host discussions and know that hosts are acting in good faith but hosts are so constrained in GD it makes me wonder why there are hosts at all.
As for using euphemisms like "the c-word," nothing other than your own sense of courtesy to others compels you to do that. I dislike using that or c*** and instead try to avoid direct references. I'd prefer to write out the word because for me it only has power when it's used as an insult but I recognize that spelling it out in academic discussions here would still offend too many people, thus I don't spell it out.
BainsBane
(53,001 posts)and that word expresses hatred toward women. That is all theoretical, of course, since it is rarely enforced. As you say, the owners decide what they find acceptable or not.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Also admin's consistent resistance to address misogyny directly (right down to ignoring ATA questions about it) makes it clear to me that it's acceptable here.
BainsBane
(53,001 posts)which is why we see more and more of it all the time.
BainsBane
(53,001 posts)When they just ain't. The part about being funny obviously escapes them.
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,919 posts)AND They don't realize Carlin took no prisoners
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)but the Rude Pundit's posts should be exempt IMO. You know what they are and don't have to read them.
lamp_shade
(14,796 posts)mokawanis
(4,434 posts)by the Rude Pundit? I don't care.
Journeyman
(15,001 posts)and be generous in forgiveness, and open to empathy and understanding. Do this, and the world will be a brighter place. Or at least your perception of it will be.
I really like what you just said.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
.... just because a word is appropriate in one context does not make it appropriate in all contexts. The C word is an ugly one that would only be appropriate in certain limited contexts.
But there are very few words that are off limits all the time IMHO.
ms liberty
(8,478 posts)Gidney N Cloyd
(19,781 posts)Lancero
(2,979 posts)But what a lot of people who pull on it forget is that his material was a product of HIS time, not the CURRENT time. While a lot of his material is applicable today, and some can be with slight changes, not everything translates to the modern day.
Back when he came up with that routine, it was applicable for the time. It fell in with the current standards of that day, and it fell in with the causes of that day.
2014 is a lot diffrient then 1972.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,161 posts)conservatism now and then.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)I would like to see "conservative" bandied about DU 24/7/365.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I mean, if said word is being used, or even appears to be used, in a truly misogynistic or even just plain sexist context, then yes, I would want that hidden by a jury. But if not.....well, viewer discretion advised, as they say on TV.
dilby
(2,273 posts)Word does not bother me but I have thick skin and not many words do.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Hey, portraits in courage, stand by those votes and show us what you're made of!
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)Here (the UK), it's a commonly used and non-gender-specific insult. I've used it twice on this board, in fits of anger. Once I got a polite email that I might want to change that word (which I did once I'd calmed down), the other was hidden pretty much instantly.
I'll be honest. It's not a word which I find offensive. That said, the UK and US have different standards for offensiveness and since the majority he are American, I try to remember to apply your cultural standards (as I said, teh twice I used the word were both when I'd lost my temper and completely flipped out).
Squinch
(50,773 posts)things are offensive. I am guessing that there are words that are offensive in the UK that are culturally less offensive in the US.
Glitterati
(3,182 posts)authoritarian trying to justify their behavior of decided FOR adults what they should read, consume and discuss.
I chose the "Pass"
Leave DU alone so I can make my own choices to click on which threads I choose to read, click on the X to hide those I find offensive, and move on.
Find a different hobby. Please.
Squinch
(50,773 posts)limiting your choices. Unless your choice is that people shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions.
Paladin
(28,202 posts)....I don't want any more Rude Pundit columns or Tom Tomorrow cartoons eliminated on account of a very few people getting in a snit over a word or two. I think we're better than that.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,072 posts)I don't believe I've seen the c word ever used on DU till the Rude Pundit controversy.
Someone said Anne Coulter was called that by him. Whether one chooses to call her a "cunt", "bitch" or any other derogatory term the fact is she's a rather cruel mean spirited person. Those two words are generally used to describe a woman of that nature.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)ban·ter {ban-ter}
noun
1. an exchange of light, playful, teasing remarks; good-natured raillery. verb (used with object)
2. to address with banter; chaff.
verb (used without object)
3. to use banter.
<snip>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Synonyms
1. badinage, joking, jesting, pleasantry, persiflage. 2. tease, twit; ridicule, deride, mock.
ban·dy {ban-dee}
verb (used with object), ban·died, ban·dy·ing.
1. to pass from one to another or back and forth; give and take; trade; exchange: to bandy blows; to bandy words.
2. to throw or strike to and fro or from side to side, as a ball in tennis.
3. to circulate freely: to bandy gossip.
<snip>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Synonyms
1. reciprocate, interchange, swap, barter.
So naturally, as someone who feels strongly about language and correct usage, I voted I voted "yes" in your poll, since why should anyone object to good-natured raillery?
polly7
(20,582 posts)Got my vote, too. Who doesn't like good-natured bantering.
So tired of authoritarian word police who insist on everyone else ignoring context and abiding by their rules. This is an adult, progressive site, and we're not fucking six year olds.
pleinair
(171 posts)I was going to say the same thing
bluedigger
(17,077 posts)If it was directed at a member or group specifically it would be alert worthy, most likely. If a member used it constantly, that would be disruptive behavior to be dealt with by admins. Context is everything, though, and if someone occasionally comes off as too uncivil, I can cope with that easier than arbitrary censorship. I don't see it trending, at any rate.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)I'll be "cocky" and say it!
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)The problem is when someone posts in reference to George Carlin (who was a funny guy) dirty words like the thread that is up right now. In that case it actually causes more problems than it is worth.
I was just on a jury for one of the replies way down thread and haven't seen the outcome yet.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)a word.
Yes, it might be used to insult all women, but it seems more commonly used to insult particular women. Pretty much the same way male dangly bits are used to insult particular men, which seems OK around here.
Why is it not considered a sign of true equality using equivalent terminology for males and females? Or is there some reason why females require greater consideration, protection even, in public discourse?
The simple truth seems to be that referring to nasty bits is crude and not acceptable in polite company. But, if we ignore that social rule for some, why not for all?
Codeine
(25,586 posts)Change for the better as far as I'm concerned.
Uncle Joe
(58,111 posts)talented individuals with a good capability to get their message across.
To my way of thinking using that kind of language only serves to debase our discourse and alienate people here that would otherwise totally agree with your point of view.
Sometimes the cuss words only get in the way of the message.
Thanks for the thread, boston bean.
Response to boston bean (Original post)
mia This message was self-deleted by its author.
Squinch
(50,773 posts)some DUers have introduced another and are gleefully tossing it around like a badminton birdie. I guess the old c word just didn't convey enough depersonalization and disgust. It just didn't give an accurate picture of how much these men really despise women. And it's really important to them that they be accurate. So now we have to ask, "Which c word?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025127500#post125
Further down the thread, the objection to the characterization of women as objects into which men dump their garbage was that it does not pay sufficient respect to the sanctity of a man's "royal jelly."
ha ha ha ha
My guess is that they think they're just nice guys and don't even know they are carrying around that billboard that everyone else can see that says, "I fear and despise women."
PS: It appears that conversation survived a jury.
newcriminal
(2,190 posts)I have been here for years and have never been so offended as I was yesterday. I definitely have a new view of a lot of members here, I am truly disgusted.
Squinch
(50,773 posts)theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)Even the gutter would have spat out a lot of those posts.
Exposethefrauds
(531 posts)The only speech that should be banned is death threats anything less some thing other then free speech but DU is private and they, the owners, have total say as to what can and cannot be said.
If we want free speech here, you will not find it, you get approved moderated speech only.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)seaglass
(8,170 posts)f*ggot and n*gger here if not for their cowardice. I would not believe their denials.
I just watched briefly George Carlin discussing the word n*gger. He said we shouldn't be concerned about the word itself but instead the racist asshole who uses it. The part he didn't get was the USE of the word by people outside the group targeted in most contexts makes you that racist asshole.
If I look at how the word c*nt has been used on DU in the last day or so, it has been used primarily as revenge for a post being hidden (get some perspective people!). That's the context, payback, putting those jury b*tches and alerter in their place. So yeah, my concerns are the sexist assholes.
ms liberty
(8,478 posts)This isn't and shouldn't be an either/or issue. I'd go into more depth but I'm on my phone. I'm too slow at it, and my thoughts are just too fast for my one-finger hunting and pecking to keep up with. Especially with my obsession for grammar, spelling, and proper punctuation!
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)the same way that Blacks can use a word that I don't use, not being Black. And I think that men should be able to use it only when referring to a part of the female anatomy. And if a man uses it to call another woman a cunt, that man deserves everything he gets. But when a woman uses it to refer to another woman there are so many possible meanings---including a very friendly joke that signifies that the two women are the best of friends who are absolutely comfortable with each other---that you can not take the word away from them.
If you ban the word cunt, you also have to ban dick. So, go ahead, ban both of them. Or neither of them.
(Sitting back to see if this post will be banned for the use of the word cunt. This should be interesting).
boston bean
(36,186 posts)I agree wholeheartedly that discussion of the word itself within that context is not offensive. I'm very consistent with that. I hated to even put the term "c word" in my subject line.
I also mostly agree with what you post. But I differ that a woman can use it at any time for any purpose. I draw the line at was it meant as a slur.
CTyankee
(63,769 posts)I am highly sensitized to the relationship of language and culture since I tutor ESOL adult students as a Literacy Volunteer. My students today (I tutor only Intermediate and Advanced students) were both from Taiwan and relatively new to the U.S. They are acutely aware of the importance of having the right cultural awareness when speaking our language. Today we discussed "greetings,compliments, congratulations and condolences." They are eager to learn the "right" way to say things. So this is very much on my mind as I read this thread...
A kind of funny story: I was traveling in Sicily in 2005 and had a non-native English speaking guide at a church in the countryside who referred to the way a certain martyred female saint was traditionally portrayed in paintings of the early Renaissance, "with her tits on a plate."
She said this in the presence of the church's priest, and i am certain she just got the translation wrong...she was very serious, not trying at all to be funny. We let it pass but I regret that I didn't speak to her in private about usage of American English slang...
boston bean
(36,186 posts)However, sometimes it is not used as a slur by in groups. Nor is it a slur, in my opinion, when the word is spelled out when discussing the misogynistic meaning and effect it's usage has on society.
I get why and can understand why some people feel the way they do and it is a valid point.
CTyankee
(63,769 posts)And I think it should be discussed. I have argued elsewhere that we should have a more finely tuned attentiveness to exactly how it is used and how that is a slur against women.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)even if a woman is doing it. But consider this. Every time anyone got in trouble for using the word "cunt" or "pimp" about Hillary---the anti-Hillary people always turned around and blamed Hillary. As if, somehow, she used the power of her laser-beam eyes to stifle their free speech. Everyone in the press who suddenly got a bad case of potty mouth became a martyr.
boston bean
(36,186 posts)ie, The bitch made them do it. It was her own fault.
It's not because someone spoke to how misogynistic the comment was.
deathrind
(1,786 posts)Words can only hurt you if you let them.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)dembotoz
(16,737 posts)i thought about removing the word shit and replace it with crap
but is kinda like the way silly shit rolls off the tongue
not literally of course.....
i do attempt to keep what i say here fairly clean
and that is perhaps a good rule to follow.
i do appreciate that sometimes in a rant from others--whole lines of blue stuff may come out.
This is why it is called a rant. If it were all cleaned up and made pure it might be called --an observation.
i think reading rants is more fun than reading observations
Lets not get carried away here.
This is a site of politics and passions
lets keep it that way
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)down in the primary. That is the reason we are having a discussion of "language" right now. To set the rules before we get into the primary. Sort of like setting the rules before you start the world series.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Certainly using it as a personal insult is straight out. But that is a specific use case. IMO the word is no different than vagina, which certainly is ok to use, and is no different in substance than dick, which again is ok to use. Since it has been stated here that some of our community find any use of the common Anglo-Saxon word for vagina insulting, it should not be "bantered about". However, if for example somebody is quoting some text that contains the Anglo Saxon word for vagina, and the intent is not simply to insult people here, then what the fuck is the problem?
I was in San Francisco two weeks ago and my brother dragged me to a San Francisco Opera production of the musical Showboat. Right in the first scene of the first act, the N-word gets blurted out twice. There was an audible gasp from the audience. The word is in the original text, and it is there for very good reasons. One of the themes of the show is our racist culture and the lives of African americans in post reconstruction America. Should they have edited the text? What would that accomplish?
boston bean
(36,186 posts)instead of trying to fit me into some box as someone who just wants to ban words.
If you want to have an actual conversation with me, please let's have one. But these accusations and suppositions you come up with to try and state what it is you believe I feel, when it is in contrast to the truth, really just pisses me off. It makes me not want to respond to you. When you do some reading, just in this little thread, about my thoughts, come back to me with something that resembles the truth to how I actually feel, if you have any doubts or further questioning. I'm not dealing with interrogation..
Response to boston bean (Original post)
Post removed