duers are gleefully throwing around profanity, like the "F" word, I would never dream of doing the same.

And I also have a bridge for sale, prime real estate, located on the planet Mars, for a dirt cheap price!

We do have adolescents, though, some young and some older than others. I'm not concerned about young children accessing DU at all. Teenagers...well a lot of them are interested in politics. I do think about them when I post.

My son has grown up to be politically active. Protests. Officer of political groups in college. So, I think a little language is fine.

my wife dropped something and "oh shit" slipped out. So, for the next week, "oh sit" (he couldnt fully say sh) became his favorite thing to say

and his babysitter was scandalized he said the f word. all i could say is i guess i better wash my mouth out with soap...

go on any schoolyard. by 3rd or 4th grade if they don't pick up language at home they will get it at school. but i'm just an old potty mouth so fuck it.

My only sister is republican. My twin brother doesn't want to see any news, so I'm the only one in my family that is here.

I think many people are burned out of news, all news. It's always bad, except it was worst for republicans this week.

Sorry.

He was born just 5 days ago.

...are wonderful. They change your life...

Why would anyone here possibly care about anyone but themselves? It's the Ayn Rand view of "liberalism."

Thank you!

"Fuck Nader", "Fuck Greenwald", "Fuck Ron Paul" posts?

I didn't say I always got it right. In fact, I admitted that in my post. And, I'm not suggesting that DU should be free of that strong language, either. I'm suggesting that it's a good idea to keep the audience in mind. I don't believe I even mentioned words that shouldn't be used at all. That isn't the topic of the post. It's more about civility and general tone, not individual words, although there are certainly some words I would never use on this website.

as usual.

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply.

Tedious. At best.

rather than as an example of redemption and evolution from openly anti gay propagandist to something better.
A man who could type this OP knowing full well that he himself has posted seriously horrible things all over the internet, bigoted lies that probably did do harm to youth and parents of LGBT kids and others who read them without mentioning his own past actions as example is a man who has not incorporated the reality of his past actions into his thinking.
A guy who spent years typing hateful shit about minority groups on the internet is lecturing people on DU to be cautious of what they write, without even mentioning his own history. This is a depth of self service that I do not believe is appropriate.

This great grandmother doesn't appreciate those truly obscene and nitpicking posts and usually will pass over them.

The left constantly claims the intellectual high ground, while using the same base, intolerant language of those we mock ... All because we can.

Sad.

What it boils down to is really an excuse to be knowingly rude.

Thank you!

You said it. In a nutshell.

Must be hard coming down off that cross to converse with us proles.

. . .some folks just post to vent. That may well disrupt the showroom, but there are more amenable forums for direct marketing of something or the other, GD is an open forum and it's free-wheeling and diverse. Maybe not the best place for 'business', although, as in any volatile and dynamic gathering, there may well be opportunities to sell something. You take the good with the bad here, or you resign yourself to more targeted 'markets'.

This is the Underground where ideas are brought forth and hashed out, either approved or vehemently opposed.

It's up to the party to do the marketing.

For this post.

This post is a reminder to me, too.

We haven't had that luxury, to be raised in a Victorian concentration camp designed to enfeeble the mind and body and make willing body servants of the 99.5% if you throw in the women of the 1%.

One thing we are is Populist, Realist, small-d democrats. So cut the crap.

something it is not. I'm not talking about individual words that should or should not be used at all. I didn't mention that, nor am I referring to that.

My OP is about language and how we use it. It's not about a word list of some kind. It's about all of the words we include in our messages and how they are put together.

You slithered around using the actual words, "Don't use profanity," but the meaning is the same. Don't then add insult to injury by thinking we're stupid and don't know exactly what you're asserting because we do. Truly, MM, you're not that clever.

Thanks for reading my post. I'm sorry you were bored.

That is why they use the words so many women find offensive. The point is to demean, to wield power over those they consider inferior.

That's sad, I think. Very sad.

but in some high-profile ones.

issues can be influenced. I'm not sure it's something that is particularly worthwhile to attempt.

and we are witnessing that now. Suddenly demeaning and insulting women is proclaimed to be an expression of true liberalism. Evidently one can't be considered a liberal without hating the majority of the world's population. They have twisted the meaning of the word to the point where it has no political or social meaning and is entirely about self over community. "Liberalism" has become the display of power of the privileged over those they look down on, which is most of humanity. You see in this thread determined proclamation that they don't have to concern themselves with anyone else. Asking them to do so, they insist, subverts freedom. This is the Ayn Rand view of the world.

My conception of liberalism involves social justice, not self-absorbed nihilism. I cannot relate to or begin to understand the kind of mentality demonstrated over the past few days. The hypocrisy reflected in comments like "there needs to be a purge of those who try to censor speech" astounds. It is impossible to respect that level of intellectual dishonesty.

that despite the trend on so many other websites towards bickering and childish personal attacks, here there is a propensity toward thoughtful and honest posts. It's easy enough to ignore the crap because there are a lot of bright people here. I wouldn't want to see more stringent rules set up. Seems a good balance of structure (rules) and freedom has been reached.

Anytime we write to convince someone of anything, we're using marketing strategies. I agree that DU has a large number of very honest and thoughtful people. I enjoy reading and responding to those posts. I also think it has a decent set of boundaries and that it's community-based moderation system is exceptional among discussion forums.

As with all things, though, there's always room for improvement.

I kind of miss that.

to achieve, I think. It's a political forum, and politics is about goals. Underground, yes, but also dealing with mainstream realities. I'm here to try to find ways to move things in a progressive way, politically. That's not really an underground thing. It's about getting better people elected to office, since that's how we move things forward.

"getting a HIDE" from "net nannies."


That's the theme this week, anyway.

Some of the "nannies" were the worst offenders, too, back in the day.

Next week it will be pit bulls. Or breast feeding at the Olive Garden.

It is what it is. The landscape shifts and changes. People get sick of finger waggers, and they push back. Or they don't.

How long do you think any of these threads (WARNING WARNING WARNING--DO NOT CLICK ON THESE THREADS IF YOU ARE "OFFENDED" BY FOUL LANGUAGE) would have lasted in this current, hyper-alerting "community standards" environment? ALERT (all you need is one HIDE to live to alert again, and again, and again...) has become the substitute for HIDE THREAD, or a post replying "What a dumbass thing to say" or simply IGNORE:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1358069

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3503516

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2348165

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x7002695

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x6912818

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x58235

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2138010

I don't have a "solution" to this issue--I really can't see myself imposing my POV on the group, anyway--I simply offer this "tip of the iceberg" view of DU as an historical sampler.

Shit changes (if I can say "shit" without being unduly excoriated...think of the children! ) ....

the foul-language posts are undoubtedly effective. What is more troubling is the idea that political opinions are being formed and promoted on the same basis. A campaign on that basis is not something I want to be a part of.

It's much more than that, I think. It's a matter of attitude and manner of language use than just words.

Dismissive, sarcastic, demeaning uses of language are even less effective than resorting to foul language. None of those things convinces anyone of anything. It just puts more distance between your ideas and the people you're sharing them with.

It's a bigger issue than just individual words. Language is more than just the vocabulary we choose to express ourselves. That's why I didn't mention that, specifically.

Of course, if a person uses words that are considered obscene, bigoted, or otherwise beyond the pale, their ideas will be lost on a large part of the audience. But thinking about audience goes way beyond such simple choices.

What are you trying to do clamp down on free expression?

Strange that those fiercely opposed to criticism of the President are also opposed to bad language.

Writing is something very near and dear to my heart - I think my talent needs a lot more polishing before I can do it professionally - but it is my long term goal, to write for a living.

Some times I think about what sells, what I could write that would make me money. Then I realize that to me, the money isn't nearly as important as the content. I feel much the same way about vulgarity in writing. I use it, usually to stress a particular point, or in making a joke, or insulting idiots (typically of the republican and/or conservative christian variety). I have read the works of many, many wonderful authors who frequently use vulgarity within their novels. Generally, I appreciate them more than those that strain to avoid any offensive language.

It has always been my belief that truly great writing is something that comes from the heart as much as from the mind. I had a habit in school, of injecting my own passions into most of my writings, professors loved my style, but could rarely count on me to be neutral to the subject matter, because I preferred to write about things I cared about.

When we are discussing writing and the use of vulgarity or offensive language, I have one word (point, and concept) that I would like to stress to infinity and beyond: CONTEXT. We all make the mistake, at times, of taking the words of another writer (poster, whatever) out of context. Often, things that we read and find offensive become remarkably less so if we read the complete message. Frequently at DU I see raging battles waged over someone saying something that wasn't intended in the way the reader perceived. Often I see angry battles began over someone who read only part of, or only one sentence of someone else's writing.

I do not believe in policing language - and strongly disagree with anyone who thinks that vulgarity is a sign of immaturity or poor writing - does the content suffer because someone says "fuck"? I don't think so. On the contrary - some of the best writers I know curse like sailors.

It is kind and thoughtful to be considerate of others when we say things that may cause offense here at DU, but no one is any sort of authority on what language can and can't be used. Brilliant minds use the word "fuck", just as often as ignorant ones do.

If someone finds my writing, or the writing of anyone else, to be particularly offensive... they are welcome not to read it. That's the joy of the written word, we can choose to ignore it, we can choose to read it and argue with it. What we should never - ever - do, IMO, is seek to silence it. Let all opinions and voices be heard - if they are extremely ignorant, poisonous, or foul, they can be argued with and ultimately condemned through logic, reasoning, through empathy, through simple reality.

In the real world, I am a desk clerk for a hotel. There I must carefully watch my language. Here on DU? What the fuck would be the point? I'm not running for office, I'm not trying to appeal to a particular group of people, I'm not trying to sell anything. I come here to share my thoughts and feelings with other people who are doing the same. I'd actually prefer vulgar rants to posters making every effort to contain their feelings through politically correct language.

If we were all too afraid to ever offend anyone, then no one would ever say, or write anything useful.

Just my opinion. It could be a bunch of shit, but it's what I think on the subject.

in writing that seeks to persuade. I am not convinced that considering the audience has any place in the writing of good and great literature.

Personally, I believe that if you are overly concerned about what the audience will think or do, you'll never write anything worth reading.

For me, political writing always seeks to persuade. Aside from my work, most of my writing is political in nature.

I agree that the vast majority of political writing seeks to persuade but in your op, you said all writing.

to others with regard to my literary efforts.

!!

Hooray!

Clean language is appropriate at other times.

What bothers me about this place more than an occasional f-bomb, or even more than calling Ann Coulter the c-word (which I think can be appropriate at times), is how we treat each other. That's MUCH more of a turn off. And there doesn't need to be any course language involved for "the audience" of potential allies to look at this place and say "Fuck that shit. I'm not stepping into THAT den of vipers!"

I think there might even be some of that on this very thread. Of course, it's the internet, so anyone with any experience will understand going in that this is a den of vipers.

"Course language" would be a college lecture, or PowerPoint presentation, or the like.

I'm such a dipshit sometimes.
"Of coarse" I know that... Brain fart!

They are aware that their posts mock, demean, denigrate, and belittle women, people of color, the LGBT community, and others who-historically and currently-have had their rights and opportunities restricted by the dominant culture.

They are aware of all of this. That is why they continue to post offensive drivel. They enjoy it. It is intentional.

The more educated the bully, the less offensive the language appears...but it's always the intent and the content that matter, isn't it?

some posts that mock, demean, denigrate, and belittle women, people of color, the LGBT community on DU? You know, since this sort of offensive drivel is so commonplace.

Haven't anything to add to what you've stated so well.

Too much of the time these days I click past OP title after OP title and begin to wonder what I am doing here at all, aside from becoming desensitized to Geo Carlin's famous list of cuss-words. A few cuss words to express outrage are like a bit of jalapeno in your dinner, but you can't eat an entire entree of jalapeno and expect to be nourished.

Thanks once again MinMan.

Well said.

...with the smokers. And all the other societal rejects that don't meet your standards!!!

This place is supposed to be about....

[font size=10]INCLUSION[/font]

- And that ''let's all think of the little children and the grannies'' ploy, is a load of BS. Nice try.

"favorite" list.

Why the distinction? Sounds paternalistic, I think.

you'd have found those in the first sentence.

I agree completely.

to read my post.

... so just stop cussing motherfuckers because someone's Gam-Gam might read it...

and stays here should be able to handle a wide variety of discourse without clutching their pearls. If not, they should probably frequent a more watered-down, corporate-approved-and-censored site.

Not make it enforceable but people who post within it know they are posting for adults thus they don't have to worry about maybe posting something that would be offensive to people who don't want to be in the Adults Only Forum?

FUCK YES

It also uses an example most people would not find particularly relatable and compares a business transaction to a more social interaction, which is just a poor use of analogy. Ultimately you're comparing writing with two very different calls to action: buy my thing versus embrace my idea. The former needs to be blandly inoffensive because alienating anybody results in a loss of income, where the latter can't be because strongly worded ideas and clever phrases are more likely to stick with the reader, or simply to gain attention in a atmosphere where most writing will go unremarked upon.

Beliefs are influenced by appeals to emotion and not by appeals to facts, logic, or reason. The latest insights and knowledge from the cognitive sciences clearly demonstrate that this is true. The political right kicks the left's ass precisely for this reason; they, and their messaging machine have known this for 30 years.

I wouldn't suggest abandoning any sense of honesty, virtue, or ethics (as the right is completely willing to do) but I do suggest that the left stop making dry, factual, arguments and start make passionate appeals to right-and-wrong and stop taking it on the chin over and over.

fixed it for you!

--the preaching against free political expression. First of all, as an English professor, I can say that arguments asserting "good writers don't use vulgar language" are just wrong. Wrong. Great writers, brilliant writers, have made a sport of employing vulgar language in addition to the most delicate (and family friendly??) turns of phrase. For example, see Shakespeare and his contemporaries (who apparently would have been banned from this board for their liberal use of naughty puns and obscenities), Chaucer (one of the most deliciously obscene writers ever), Hemingway, Joyce, Anais Nin, the Beats, Salinger, and many, many others.

Teenagers, sisters, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers, sons, husbands, cousins and so on who visit this page should be mature enough to handle the content. We should not be expected to censor our posts to protect the sensibilities of a hypothetical visitor to the site. This is an open forum for the purposes of free, uninhibited, robust, and frank discussion of politics, not a restricted, bourgeois-approved, "watch out for the children!" zone in which certain words are on the "bad word" restricted list, and our hands are slapped if we use them because "the children" may be reading. DU is a free and open forum. Let's keep it that way -- warts and all.

Dropped the diploma she was handed by the school superintendent and right into the mike, screamed, "Oh fuck".

My daughter looked like she hoped the earth would swallow her up.

The rest of us have been laughing our asses off about it ever since. Her sister who was 14 at the time brings it up every holiday.

You can't say anything that these kids haven't already heard. Or said.

Elizabeth... this is the big one... I'm coming to you...

Doubt it will be the last time.

but I do regret it when I do...

to the religious forums.

I'm a grown up . I use grown up words. Sometimes there's just no other more effective word than "shit" or "fuck" and, AS a grown up, I reserve the right to use them or any other word that might get the self-rightous' panties in a wad.

I was totally unaware that DU was a magnet for children and church groups.

Passion often brings colorful language. Some people use language to show their intensity, some use to shock, some to intentionally offend and some because the action of speaking or writing those words brings a release of emotion.

When I was in college in the late 60s early 70s, I had a classmate who took it upon himself to get me to use the "f" word. He chanted it in my ear when he got the chance..... often in uncomfortable situations. I think he thought of it as desensitizing me to it. I cannot remember the event or situation that moved me that day.... but I searched our small campus that day so I could find him, grab him by the shoulders, look him in the eye and say "Fuck, Billy"..... he danced around.

I still say the word, but I choose the places and people to use it. In my work as a hospital nurse, I have encountered angry or confused or even just plain manipulative patients who swear a lot. I try to teach nurses young and old to just ignore it. If you show you are offended or upset by the words, you can see the reaction of power and control it creates. If you can learn to ignore it and continue with the subject at hand, the swearing can decrease (not always of course) it has lost it's power. Many nurses cannot do that, they are just too upset, I hope they can get better at ignoring, because pointing it out only encourages the speaker.

I will admit it was hard the first someone called me some of those awful words, now I just go on with what I need to do or say.

I think we just need to focus on the point we are making, but also to not make an intentional effort to offend, that is not productive, being overly sensitive is not either.

This is a very thought provoking post.

...is someone's son or daughter and/or mother, father, niece, nephew, uncle, aunt... so?

Having read my share of Internet-marketing tomes, I recognize a lot of what you are saying has merit in the context of being paid to write text for other people's web sites. But we're not writing text to be put up on web sites here at DU; rather, we are engaging in political discourse. And we are doing it by posting to a discussion board -- we are not being paid for our prose here on DU (hopefully), nor is our prose meant to be polished and edited and made suitable for publication. It's a conversation, not text for a web site, or a magazine article, or a chapter of a book.

So I, as a daughter and a granddaughter and a niece and a mother and an aunt, feel free to express myself however the hell I want to. Particularly on a political discussion board like DU -- and regardless of the opinions of self-appointed net nannies.

And, as a daughter (etc.), I hope that everyone else here feels equally free to express themselves -- whether or not I or anyone else agree with their position or like how they express it.