you can get away with it. No reason for any good liberals to suffer for a Koch.

Boo fucking hoo

Perfectly stated.

we can wait for people to get so fed up that they roll in the guillotines (seriously rebel and/or start another civil war) or we can figure out how to start taxing appropriately and spreading some of this wealth. The pendulum has swung way too far on the side of the billionaires. Those are the choices. I vote for non-violent.

and couldn't care less if the health or welfare of humans or animals in the area are compromised as long as it doesn't hurt them. AND, if they are caught, they pay pennies on the dollar in fines or get off if their army of lawyers can find a loophole. Of course, ALEC and other think tanks are paving the way for them with more loopholes, as I type.

It isn't that we are against wealthy people who got to that level through their own labor and sweat, it's those who manipulated the laws and our government structure to take from the middle class so their wealth would grow.

Most of those types of thieves are in prison, only they weren't too big to prosecute and the Kochs are.

To the OP, have you researched the Koch brothers? Perhaps you should. "We" can't all be wrong.

I really don't get into the "bad actor" bit. These guys are capitalists and they are doing what capitalists are rewarded for doing.

It is capitalism which is inherently unequal and unfair - and it needs to go.

It seems that people here can't be bothered to distinguish between individuals, hence all Kochs are bad, all wealthy people are bad. This attitude is simplistic and wrong.

It's the old "Robin Hood" myth.

But this guy who cheated the Koch brother is no Robin Hood, stealing from the rich to give to the poor.
He's a con artist and liar who keeps all the money he steals.

George Soros is rich, so it's ok to cheat him too! Right?

People aren't cheering on the con artist, but deriving pleasure in the misfortune of someone associated with inflicting misfortune on many others.

I certainly didn't, until I saw your post. And I think you for that important info!

Hatred and vitriol dominate many lives and these feelings are expressed and given an outlet, not just here but all over the internet. I do not want to be like that, even people who I disagree with strongly and nearly despise I cannot be brought to hate or even wish ill upon them. I do not want that mojo, it's bad stuff and rots us from the inside out.

If somebody is going to be a victim, who better than a Koch?

just because it's legal in a corrupt system doesn't mean it gets a moral pass.

The Koch Bros. have benefited greatly at the expense of exploiting many others.

My argument is not really against the individuals though, it is the acceptance of a system which is inherently unequal and unfair to the majority of people. Capitalism needs to go.

Far classier and effective to not send that energy that way but instead, to take actions, large and small, to make sure that selfishness is punished and philanthropy is rewarded.

History is filled with wealthy folks who have done a lot of great works for the common man and woman.

I couldn't have attended a five-year college program for free if not for an endowment by a successful and wealthy person.

We do ourselves no good by trashing others gratuitously.

Recommended thoughtfully,

NYC_SKP

He isn't funding the teabaggers. Hes not behind Citizen's United or any other crap his brothers do. He sued his brothers for ripping off Native Americans and the US government. Out of his pocket he funded an all-woman's America's Cup team... that was a $100M program back then. If the guy wants to spend a fraction of his money on wine and art, so what?

I'm disgusted with the hate on display here, by people who obviously have done no homework.

Not aware that he sued to protect Native Americans, would like to see proof of that.

The America's Cup Team, was that so he could have something to do and watch the event?

Look, if he is a good guy, then show us the proof, if he isnt, then while I dont chear on cheating, I do get a kick out of who got cheated.

But, if you are right about his history, I can change my mind.

... on Indian and Govt land. He won the lawsuit, his brothers were fined and forced to buy out Bill's interest in Koch Industries.
He is a conservative, but not as extreme as his brothers and doesn't deserve to be lumped in with them, imo.

America's Cup... he's been a sailor for a long time. He started his own America's Cup team, and won. Rather than defend the win, he turned his equipment over to the women's team to use in preparation and training. When the women weren't able to secure sponsorship for new boats and the competition, he funded that out of his own pocket.

I don't like him, nor hate him. Some DUer's however, appear to seethe with hatred for no reason other than he's wealthy and has a couple despicable brothers. Everything is black or white to them, as is often found in authoritarian conservatives. If you don't worship the ground Obama walks on, then you must hate him. Fuck that attitude. I recognize good, and bad... often they coexist. I'm fine with that. Causes me no cognitive dissonance to see both good and bad in people, actions, events.
What we have here is a victim of criminal fraud. He did nothing to deserve being swindled. He could have kept quiet and sold the bad wine to someone else. He did not do so. He prevented the fraud from being perpetuated by providing evidence the wine seller was a crook. Good on him for that. Good on him for other good things hes done.
If you want to pile on the guy for other shit... have at it. Makes no difference to me. But piling on him in this instance is very misguided, and many of the comments are disgusting.

He was awarded $12,000,000


FTR, I am not 'piling on' him. I have not commented in the thread linked in the OP. I just think it's hilarious to be 'disgusted' at a bit of schadenfreude. I think it's weird to think this brother is any different. He's not. He's spends billions fighting against regulation and alternative energy.

People aren't cheering on the con artist, but deriving pleasure in the misfortune of someone associated with inflicting misfortune on many others. And yes, even this Koch brother is responsible for causing misfortune of others and especially wreaking havoc on our environment. Fuck him.

My the arrogance and hypocrisy runs deep. The tables may be turned on you someday.

You sure seem to read only what you want into things, huh?

I hope you didn't injure yourself on that stretch.

I have no sympathy for them.

Are ALL Kennedys alike?

All of them philanderers with an "above the law" outlook?

Are all the Kennedys alike?

Obviously, no.

Likewise not ALL the Koch brothers are alike.

I am not saying it is right to cheat them but I won't cry for them.

Bingo.

... out of his pocket when they couldn't find sponsors willing to support women knocking down the barriers of a male-dominated sport. That was about $100M, out of his pocket. No tax deduction.

That's just one example, but its a pretty big one.

Quite obviously you don't have a fucking clue, and have done zero homework. Bill Koch isn't the same as his brothers. Painting him with the same broad brush only puts a spotlight on the ignorant hate and prejudice boiling over inside you.

Just as saying 'if he's Hitler' is not the same as saying 'if he's got a mustache'.

without looking at the details of the individuals life.. they will fall for any jingoism that will support a point of view.. that is how the tea party evolved.

It is sad indeed.

It is not the Democratic way.

Sure, why not? Most rich people got that way by stealing from the poor. And money is just a small aspect, they have nice stuff to liberate too.

Obviously I'm joking, though I do feel many wealthy people do get that way by exploiting the poor.

It's about the person doing the act.

The same argument used to justify stealing from the Koch brothers is the one used to justify the use of torture. "They were bad guys, the worst of the worst," and so it was okay to waterboard them, and freeze them, and hang them by their thumbs...

Is it carved on the tablet, "Thou shalt steal only from the rich or evil" or does that tablet read "Thou shalt not steal."

Trying to feed their families, pay for shelter, healthcare, clothing, heat, etc?

before people began to champion the rights of the rich. We've already been told how white men are so oppressed. Now the circle is complete.

That doesn't mean I think fraud is acceptable. It is not, but of all the things to worry about, I am shedding no tears over a Koch losing some cash.

A con man feeding off the vanities of the very wealthy.

Both the criminal and the victim are vile in their own ways. At least the con man wasn't stealing from middle class working people.

Its hard to sympathize with family that fleeces the poor and who have no regard for government protection for anyone, they can afford their personal security.Nobody was robbed ,he was conned ,big difference to me,he had the money to find out he was conned. To me this family is doing the conning to the American people.The Lord works in mysterious ways.

Rich people are targets for all sorts of scammers. The whole thing gets worse when they're stingy rich people who want the best of everything at a bargain basement price.

Billy Carter was an ignorant redneck and public drunk. I doubt DU would paint Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter with the same broad brush as their brothers.

You see, Clinton and Carter are one of OURS, so it's wrong to condemn Jimmy and Bill, for what their stupid relations do.

But it's ok to cheat any of the Kochs.

Fuck the Kochs. They are trying to steal this country.

Now if a small-time crook steals from John Gotti, he does so at his own risk. Gotti is still the worse one of the two. This poor bastard who faked wine vintages is now paying the price, unlike Koch. I don't approve of the fraud, but I also don't care. And in this case, it's kind of hilarious. Tough shit for the Koch, and for your bizarre moral calculus. Is this the sort of thing that gets your outrage up?

The lesbian daughter of Dick Cheney.

Hey, it's all right to cheat the Koch brother *ONLY* because he is a Koch, so since Dick Cheney and Liz Cheney are vicious liars and war criminals, so is Mary Cheney, *ONLY* because she is a Cheney.

Remember John Derbyshire, who got canned from the National Review Online?
He openly advocated killing Chelsea Clinton, *ONLY* because she is a Clinton.

That is the "logic" behind this "It's ok to cheat any and all Kochs!"

it doesn't matter to me who the cheater is cheating, it's still cheating and disgusting.

I'm glad William Koch spoke out about the scam artist.

damage to a wide swath of Americans.

Fleeced by millions on fake wine? You must be trolling!

Let me know when you lock up Mary Cheney for the sins of her father and sister.

And they're using it to destroy America by buying ultra corrupt politicians like Scott Walker and Rock Scott. Sorry but I can't feel sympathetic for evil men wasting their money foolishly.

be considered karma.

Which the Koch brothers have something to do with, so no sympathy from me.

Let me know when a struggling family getting ripped off by a shady used car lot or a break-in at a badly maintained apartment building gets any kind of press at all or a worker getting shorted on their wages by a Koch-owned company gets any press at all. Those are all proportionately much bigger losses and they happen routinely to people who can not absorb them without struggle.

To some misguided soul above because he did something nice for ladies once.

Let's hope he learned a lesson.

I'm...what's the opposite of sickened?

So yeah, he doesn't deserve that.

You can see it in multiple threads on multiple subjects.

Did he cry when a routine medical procedure threatened to catapult the 99-er into bankruptcy?


He could lose 99% of his assets and still have more than most people will see in their lifetimes.

I'm not praising anyone for committing fraud, and the fraudster should suffer the full penalty for his crimes. But Koch has the resources to employ a top-notch team of advisers, researchers, and experts, and if he failed to do so simply to save money on a preposterous purchase, then that's entirely his own damn fault.

I don't feel bad for him in the slightest.

Cheney.

However there is nothing wrong with enjoying the schadenfreude of the Koch’s even though it happened to one of the less dickish of the brothers.

Theft is theft, and fraud is fraud.

If it's Dick Cheney selling America the Iraq invasion so he can boost Halliburton's stock or a fruit stand selling as fresh dead oranges that have been frozen twice and re-thawed--it's still theft, plain and simple. The motive is greed, which, despite what a certain fictitious character once said, is NOT "good.".

He can afford to do RESEARCH on his highly expensive, very rare bottles of wine. Instead of spending 25 million to pursue people after the fact, he could have spent a few million on Private investigators before hand. In buisness, you are expected to check before you leap, but as he has inhertied wealth, he has never learned to do that, and he can at least hire people to do that for him.

But let's adress this whole "theft is theft" idea...how, pray tell, did this person get so rich? Part of it is his spending millions to buy politicans and media time, to outright LIE, and kepp his taxes low. Those taxes are what he owes us for making a society that can buy all those Dixie Cups he sells. His trucks roll on roads we paid for, his banks are stablizied by our FDIC, and yet, he has been trying to make sure he, and other people like him, pay less and less taxes. Even as our deficit runs higher, even as we fight wars to ensure HIS supply of oil, he steals millions from us! The problem is that we do not see the theft from millions of us as a crime, only we are supposed to weep because of what happened to one person that, in the end, will not have to worry about medical care, food, rent, cancer from pollution, mounting debt, or anything else we do because of HIS willingness to STEAL OUR GOVERNMENT FROM US!

Let's be honest, if he agreed to the CLINTON tax rate, which was far from the Eisnehower one, the Cliton taz rate, would he still be able to collect enough vintages that he could turn his wine cellar into a museum? Yes. But he will not even settle for that, no, this is a persopn that wants to get rid of Social Security, the one little bit of money that has not been stolen from us. The point is, stealing is wrong, but I know who the real deadly thieves are.