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Octafish

(55,745 posts)
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 12:04 PM Jun 2014

Your Military Industrial Complex at Work

On Dec. 8, 1992, after George Herbert Walker Bush was defeated at the polls by Bill Clinton with an assist from Ross Perot, he ordered the U.S. military into Somalia. Operation RESTORE HOPE was sold at the time as a "Humanitarian Mission," a phrase rarely used in conjunction with anything the guy did as president, as vice-president, as a Congressman from Texas or in his time at CIA for anyone other than his cronies and partners in crime.



What Poppy Bush's last new mission in Somalia did accomplish was to leave a crisis -- a huge dog turd in a burning bag of a crisis -- on the welcome mat at the front door of the White House for incoming President Bill Clinton. After that, things got off on the "right foot," from peace and prosperity for all to healthcare for the public and continued welfare for the wealthy. And the humanitarian mission? It quickly devolved into a fiasco of the first order, culminating in the disaster seared into the public consciousness as "Black Hawk Down."

Oh. Not that it's on tee vee or anything where millions might see it, but we're still in Somalia.

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Your Military Industrial Complex at Work (Original Post) Octafish Jun 2014 OP
Why are you using a geological map? Fred Sanders Jun 2014 #1
I've got three guesses. JEB Jun 2014 #2
Because that's where the oil is. Octafish Jun 2014 #3
So...where is the oil on the map, I am not a geologist. Fred Sanders Jun 2014 #4
Is the google broken? laundry_queen Jun 2014 #6
Notice the yellow areas interrupted by the Gulf of Aden... Octafish Jun 2014 #7
And their starvation never seems to end...nt Mnemosyne Jun 2014 #5
That is one of the things that most bothers me, Mnemosyne. Octafish Jun 2014 #8
Dear God.... daleanime Jun 2014 #9
I recently came across Kevin Carter's photo, maybe here, of the buzzard stalking the child in Mnemosyne Jun 2014 #23
It Beams .. It Burns ymetca Jun 2014 #10
Thank you, ymetca. I did not know any of that... Octafish Jun 2014 #16
truth to power, Octafish grasswire Jun 2014 #11
Where did the Peace Dividend Go? Octafish Jun 2014 #17
Why doesn't this thread have hundreds of recommendations? Enthusiast Jun 2014 #12
NYT Op-Ed: US Needs MORE War for Economy to Grow Octafish Jun 2014 #18
Thanks. I'm sure we agree that our national interests would be far better served if Enthusiast Jun 2014 #20
We could have rebuilt the energy grid with 100% renewable systems for the cost of the Iraq war... Octafish Jun 2014 #21
Wasn't that the plot of the movie Black Hawk Down? Initech Jun 2014 #13
Don't believe Poppy wanted that -- do think he wanted to give Clinton a quagmire. Octafish Jun 2014 #19
these things always turn out to be permanent Doctor_J Jun 2014 #14
Quagmire as American Foreign Policy Octafish Jun 2014 #22
K&R JEB Jun 2014 #15

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
3. Because that's where the oil is.
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 01:25 PM
Jun 2014
East African Oil – Hot Tip of the Decade!

And for at least half a century, where the oil is is where the MIC goes. Consider Vietnam, where Texas oil man George Herbert Walker Bush went on CIA business:



CIA Helped Bush Senior In Oil Venture

By Russ Baker
WhoWhatWhy.com, Jan 7, 2007

Bush has long denied allegations that he had connections to the intelligence community prior to 1976, when he became Central Intelligence Agency director under President Gerald Ford. At the time, he described his appointment as a ‘real shocker.’

But the freshly uncovered memos contend that Bush maintained a close personal and business relationship for decades with a CIA staff employee who, according to those CIA documents, was instrumental in the establishment of Bush’s oil venture, Zapata, in the early 1950s, and who would later accompany Bush to Vietnam as a “cleared and witting commercial asset” of the agency.

According to a CIA internal memo dated November 29, 1975, Bush’s original oil company, Zapata Petroleum, began in 1953 through joint efforts with Thomas J. Devine, a CIA staffer who had resigned his agency position that same year to go into private business. The ’75 memo describes Devine as an “oil wild-catting associate of Mr. Bush.” The memo is attached to an earlier memo written in 1968, which lays out how Devine resumed work for the secret agency under commercial cover beginning in 1963.

“Their joint activities culminated in the establishment of Zapata Oil,” the memo reads. In fact, early Zapata corporate filings do not seem to reflect Devine’s role in the company, suggesting that it may have been covert. Yet other documents do show Thomas Devine on the board of an affiliated Bush company, Zapata Offshore, in January, 1965, more than a year after he had resumed work for the spy agency.

It was while Devine was in his new CIA capacity as a commercial cover officer that he accompanied Bush to Vietnam the day after Christmas in 1967, remaining in the country with the newly elected congressman from Texas until January 11, 1968. Whatever information the duo was seeking, they left just in the nick of time. Only three weeks after the two men departed Saigon, the North Vietnamese and their Communist allies launched the Tet offensive with seventy thousand troops pre-positioned in more than 100 cities and towns.

While the elder Bush was in Vietnam with Devine, George W. Bush was making contact with representatives of the Texas Air National Guard, using his father’s connections to join up with an elite, Houston-based Guard unit – thus avoiding overseas combat service in a war that the Bushes strongly supported. -

CONTINUED...

http://whowhatwhy.com/2007/01/07/cia-bush-senior-oil-venture/



Which helps explain, for me at least, WTF we were doing wasting all those lives in Vietnam.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
7. Notice the yellow areas interrupted by the Gulf of Aden...
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 02:02 PM
Jun 2014

...the arrows connect oil-rich areas on the Arabian peninsula with those on the Horn of Africa. That's where the oil is.

Opinion on why it matters from an Establishment expert:


First, as recognized by a wide range of officials ranging from President Bush and Alan Greenspan to Prince 'Abd Allah and President Chavez – energy is a strategic commodity. It is the lifeblood of our economic wellbeing, fuels the troops that protect our homeland, provides essential services in growing our crops, heating and lighting our homes, transporting goods to market, moving local, regional, national and international commerce, making information transfer via the internet possible, and providing us with the quality of life and mobility that we have come to enjoy and expect.


SOURCE w details for geologists and non-geologist alike: http://www.resilience.org/stories/2005-11-02/us-foreign-policy-petroleum-and-middle-east

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
8. That is one of the things that most bothers me, Mnemosyne.
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 02:16 PM
Jun 2014

I was going to post an image of a starving child, but the children in the photos are too heartbreaking to use to make a point.

Another thing that's important to remember is what happens when "money trumps peace" becomes a regular way of thinking:



Belgian soldiers, part of the UN peace keeping operation, use enhanced interrogation technique on a Somali child.

Details:



Belgian military authorities launched an investigation into the atrocities following publication of a front-page story by Belgium’s Het Laatste Nieuws. In early July, Privates Claude Baert and Kurt Coelus, the two paratroopers photographed dangling the Somali child over a flame, were acquitted by a military court, which ruled that the incident — described by Baert and Coelus as a punishment for stealing — was "a form of playing without violence," according to prosecutor Luc Walleyn. And what of discipline from the UN, whose "Code of Personal Conduct for Blue Helmets" requires that peacekeepers "respect and regard the human rights of all"? Gould reports that a UN spokesman dismissed the acquittal of Baert and Coelus by insisting that "the UN is not in the habit of embarrassing governments that contribute peacekeeping troops."

SOURCE: http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/UN/peace.html



The sadness about this all weighs so heavily on my heart, I feel like "looking forward" etc. The reason I don't -- and you don't, Mnemosyne -- is that there are still so many kids starving, so many kids being tortured, so many kids without hope, we must keep going.


Mnemosyne

(21,363 posts)
23. I recently came across Kevin Carter's photo, maybe here, of the buzzard stalking the child in
Mon Jun 23, 2014, 08:32 PM
Jun 2014

Somalia and cried. Starvation is slow torture, imo. Then I cried some more after learning he killed himself three weeks after awarded the Pulitzer prize.

I could not have walked away and he definitely suffered horrible regrets from his decision. I will never understand why he walked away though.

Kids in Gitmo tortured, kids in Iraq tortured, kids in Somalia tortured, kids in Abu Ghraib tortured, what a world...

I guess what is the most upsetting is feeling so helpless to do anything that would help much and knowing the suffering continues. I just want to grab onto every tortured child and hold them safe.

So much for UN "peace keeping", pisses me off as much as Rwanda.

ymetca

(1,182 posts)
10. It Beams .. It Burns
Sat Jun 21, 2014, 02:54 PM
Jun 2014

Everything seems to run on burning things up, based on a coveting eye ("it beams&quot . The human species worships a solar deity (i.e. "it burns&quot Veni, vidi, vici.

The Four Powers of the Sphinx, in Masonic lore are To Know, To Will, To Dare, and To Keep Silent. Notice how that works in the National Security business?

Crowley, the Great Beast himself, spilled the beans on the super-ultra-secret Fifth Power, which was the power only the gods possessed --the power To Go. (Shit! They're onto us! Burn everything and let's get the fuck out of here!)

The Great Secret (as always) is the tale about the Big One that Got Away...

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime." - Honore de Balzac

Or, "strategery" at its foulest...

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
16. Thank you, ymetca. I did not know any of that...
Sun Jun 22, 2014, 11:54 AM
Jun 2014

...except the "To Keep Silent" thing. From the Tao:



Tao Te Ching

Chapter 56


Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know.

Keep your mouth closed.
Guard your senses.
Temper your sharpness.
Simplify your problems.
Mask your brightness.
Be at one with the dust of the earth.
This is primal union.

He who has achieved this state
Is unconcerned with friends and enemies,
With good and harm, with honour and disgrace.
This therefore is the highest state of man.

- Lao Tzu (translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)



The opposite of strategery: Doing without action.

I would never talk or write about any of this if I didn't think the United States, its Constitution, and our Democracy matter. They do. Thanks for caring about them.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
17. Where did the Peace Dividend Go?
Sun Jun 22, 2014, 12:18 PM
Jun 2014

When the Cold War ended, the Pentagon budget was going to be reduced and the monies saved used for peaceful purposes.

Well, a funny thing happened. The USA gave a green light to Iraq to settle its "Arab-Arab" dispute Kuwait. Suddenly Saddam became the New Hitler and the MIC had a new target of opportunity on the way to Baghdad in 1991. And the peoples of Iraq, the United States and the world have suffered for it. Well, the 99-percent, anyway.

And few, if anyone in government or Corporate McPravda, have brought up the Peace Dividend since.

PS: You are most welcome, grasswire! Your friendship means the world.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
12. Why doesn't this thread have hundreds of recommendations?
Sun Jun 22, 2014, 02:51 AM
Jun 2014

Do you imagine the assertions in the OP to be a fantasy? Better wake up.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
18. NYT Op-Ed: US Needs MORE War for Economy to Grow
Sun Jun 22, 2014, 12:44 PM
Jun 2014
The Pitfalls of Peace

The Lack of Major Wars May Be Hurting Economic Growth

Tyler Coswen
The New York Times, JUNE 13, 2014

The continuing slowness of economic growth in high-income economies has prompted soul-searching among economists. They have looked to weak demand, rising inequality, Chinese competition, over-regulation, inadequate infrastructure and an exhaustion of new technological ideas as possible culprits.

An additional explanation of slow growth is now receiving attention, however. It is the persistence and expectation of peace.

The world just hasn’t had that much warfare lately, at least not by historical standards. Some of the recent headlines about Iraq or South Sudan make our world sound like a very bloody place, but today’s casualties pale in light of the tens of millions of people killed in the two world wars in the first half of the 20th century. Even the Vietnam War had many more deaths than any recent war involving an affluent country.

Counterintuitive though it may sound, the greater peacefulness of the world may make the attainment of higher rates of economic growth less urgent and thus less likely. This view does not claim that fighting wars improves economies, as of course the actual conflict brings death and destruction. The claim is also distinct from the Keynesian argument that preparing for war lifts government spending and puts people to work. Rather, the very possibility of war focuses the attention of governments on getting some basic decisions right — whether investing in science or simply liberalizing the economy. Such focus ends up improving a nation’s longer-run prospects.

It may seem repugnant to find a positive side to war in this regard, but a look at American history suggests we cannot dismiss the idea so easily. Fundamental innovations such as nuclear power, the computer and the modern aircraft were all pushed along by an American government eager to defeat the Axis powers or, later, to win the Cold War. The Internet was initially designed to help this country withstand a nuclear exchange, and Silicon Valley had its origins with military contracting, not today’s entrepreneurial social media start-ups. The Soviet launch of the Sputnik satellite spurred American interest in science and technology, to the benefit of later economic growth.

War brings an urgency that governments otherwise fail to summon. For instance, the Manhattan Project took six years to produce a working atomic bomb, starting from virtually nothing, and at its peak consumed 0.4 percent of American economic output. It is hard to imagine a comparably speedy and decisive achievement these days.

SNIP...

Living in a largely peaceful world with 2 percent G.D.P. growth has some big advantages that you don’t get with 4 percent growth and many more war deaths. Economic stasis may not feel very impressive, but it’s something our ancestors never quite managed to pull off. The real questions are whether we can do any better, and whether the recent prevalence of peace is a mere temporary bubble just waiting to be burst.

Tyler Cowen is a professor of economics at George Mason University.

SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/upshot/the-lack-of-major-wars-may-be-hurting-economic-growth.html?_r=0

PS: Thank you, Enthusiast. Your friendship means the world to me.

PPS: I may have to write a movie to make the words understandable through moving pictures -- fiction, of course as few can believe the reality.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
20. Thanks. I'm sure we agree that our national interests would be far better served if
Sun Jun 22, 2014, 01:04 PM
Jun 2014

directed toward harmless alternative energy development.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
21. We could have rebuilt the energy grid with 100% renewable systems for the cost of the Iraq war...
Sun Jun 22, 2014, 01:15 PM
Jun 2014

Of course, this would impact those holding petroleum industry stocks, so we must be very very careful to tread softly...



For the Price of the Iraq War, The U.S. Could Have a 100% Renewable Power System

By Washington's Blog
Global Research, April 11, 2013

What Are We Choosing for Our Future?

Wind energy expert Paul Gipe reported this week that – for the amount spent on the Iraq war – the U.S. could be generating 40%-60% of its electricity with renewable energy:

Disregarding the human cost, and disregarding our “other” war in Afghanistan, how much renewable energy could we have built with the money we spent? How far along the road toward the renewable energy transition could we have traveled?

The answer: shockingly far.

Cost of the Iraq War

The war in Iraq has cost $1.7 trillion through fiscal year 2013, according to Brown University’s Watson Institute for International Studies. That’s trillion, with a “t”. Including future costs for veteran’s care, and so on, raises the cost to $2.2 trillion.

SNIP...

If we had invested the $2.2 trillion in wind and solar, the US would be generating 21% of its electricity with renewable energy. If we had invested the $3.9 trillion that the war in Iraq will ultimately cost, we would generate nearly 40% of our electricity with new renewables. Combined with the 10% of supply from existing hydroelectricity, the US could have surpassed 50% of total renewables in supply.

However, this is a conservative estimate. If we include the reasonable assumptions suggested by Robert Freehling, the contribution by renewables would be even greater.

Freehling’s assumptions raise to as much as 60% the nation’s lost potential contribution by new renewables to US electricity supply by going to war in Iraq. With the addition of existing hydroelectric generation, the opportunity to develop as much as 70% of our nation’s electricity with renewable energy was lost.

And unlike the war in Iraq, which is an expense, the development of renewable energy instead of war would have been an investment in infrastructure at home that would have paid dividends to American citizens for decades to come.

CONTINUED...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/for-the-price-of-the-iraq-war-the-u-s-could-have-a-100-renewable-power-system/5330881



Thanks to capital's saptraps, our "capitalist system" has become a form of slavery for the masses. I am most grateful to know so many are not afraid to see it for what it is.

PS: Brought this up at a wedding reception last night. Everyone who heard grokked immediately. Unfortunately, I made everyone who heard sad to think that Washington's gridlock benefits a certain criminal class. So, after that, I was all happy talk.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
19. Don't believe Poppy wanted that -- do think he wanted to give Clinton a quagmire.
Sun Jun 22, 2014, 12:48 PM
Jun 2014

A prescient Letter to the Editor...



Give Diplomacy a Chance to Revamp Somalia; Clinton's Quagmire?

Published: December 9, 1992

To the Editor:

For President Bush, Somalia is a win-win situation. If he wraps it up in his remaining lame-duck Administration, he has another Desert Storm illusionary victory for the history books. If the incursion fails, Mr. Bush will have left Bill Clinton in a quagmire that will stymie his domestic efforts just as Republican cries in the 60's that Lyndon Johnson was soft on Communism kept him preoccupied with Vietnam, undercutting his Great Society programs.

History will not judge Mr. Bush's decision at this late date to be a humanitarian effort to save the starving Somalis but rather as an intentional political move. After all, the situation has existed for more than a year and nothing was done.

The people have elected a new President and the ball should be in Mr. Clinton's court. Had not the Founding Fathers needed the months to count the popular vote in the early colonies and to vote in the Electoral College, the time between the general election and Inauguration Day wouldn't be two and a half months, which in our technological society gives the outgoing President too much time to create mischief for the incoming administration and thus dictate the new President's agenda.

DANIEL SEGAL Malibu, Calif., Dec. 4, 1992

SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/1992/12/09/opinion/l-give-diplomacy-a-chance-to-revamp-somalia-clinton-s-quagmire-013892.html



How many wars could we have averted? How many lives would be saved? How much treasure could have gone to build rather than destroy? A lot, I bet.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
22. Quagmire as American Foreign Policy
Sun Jun 22, 2014, 01:28 PM
Jun 2014

President Obama recently praised the Vietnam War. DUer David Swanson brought the artful erasing what Poppy called "The Vietnam Syndrome" to our attention:



Obama's Campaign to Glorify the War on Vietnam

By davidswanson - Posted on 13 August 2013

Wars exist because lies are told about past wars.

When President Obama escalated the war on Afghanistan, he revived virtually every known lie about the war on Iraq, from the initial WMD BS to the "surge." While Americans remain unfathomably ignorant about the destruction of Iraq, a majority says the war shouldn't have been fought. A majority says the same about the war on Afghanistan. This is, pretty wonderfully, impeding efforts toward a U.S. war on Syria or Iran.

The new wars were supposed to cure the Vietnam Syndrome -- that public reluctance to support mass murder for no good reason. The Pentagon is now turning to the source of the disease. The war in most need of beautification for Americans, the military has decided, is the war the Vietnamese call the American War.

Most people in the United States have no idea that this was, like all other recent U.S. wars, a one-sided slaughter -- in this case, of 3.8 million Vietnamese men, women, and children. But most Americans know the war was awful, even on the side of the aggressor. The Vietnam Syndrome (popular opposition to wars) still frightens war makers.

Obama is usually opposed to any "looking backwards," as doing so might involve prosecuting criminals for their crimes. But, making a big exception, he is dumping 65 million of our dollars into prettying up the war on Vietnam.

Please read the following statement, put together by some U.S. veterans of that war, and sign onto it here.



An Open letter to the American People about a Project to Accurately Commemorate the American War in Viet Nam

We are coming up on the 50th anniversary of key moments in the American war in Viet Nam. As peace and justice activists, we believe it is crucial that the realities of the war be faced squarely. President Obama has announced his plan for a 13-year-long commemoration funded by Congress at $65 million, featuring a full panoply of Orwellian forgetfulness and faux-patriotism. On May 25, 2012, President Obama proclaimed: “As we observe the 50th anniversary of the Vietnam War, we reflect with solemn reverence upon the valor of a generation that served with honor. We pay tribute to the more than 3 million servicemen and women who left their families to serve bravely, a world away from everything they knew and everyone they loved ... fighting heroically to protect the ideals we hold dear as Americans. Through more than a decade of combat, over air, land, and sea, these proud Americans upheld the highest traditions of our Armed Forces.”. The purpose of the official proclamation -- rather than honestly looking backward so as to glean and educate about important lessons -- will be to promote an ex post facto justification of the war, lay lingering doubts to rest, and provide a stamp of approval without attending to or contending with the horrors of the war that many of us opposed.

The whole idea is a bit staggering, that this project was put into the hands of the Department of Defense (DoD) so that they can attempt – a half century later – to rewrite a tragic history which already has been distorted and manipulated by those in power in the US. The DoD is recruiting "partner" organizations from across the country to help them distort and silence much of the real history. Numerous events are scheduled over the next 12 years to “honor” our soldiers and extol the selfless sacrifices of Americans during an ugly period of our history. There will likely be little mention of the Vietnamese, and what the nation and the society of Viet Nam suffered as a result of U.S. intervention, nor of the resistance to the war by courageous and committed Americans. Almost certainly, the DoD project will not pay tribute to the voices and postwar reconciliation activities of many antiwar veterans.

Those years many of us remember, with painful acuity, as other than glorious. We feel compelled to make sure that the history of US involvement in Viet Nam is told truthfully.

Rather than let this Madison Avenue PR campaign just roll over us, we are viewing this as an opportunity to truly examine what happened during those tragic and tumultuous Viet Nam years, and use those lessons to turn American policy and shape a better future for ourselves and other nations. The US seems as committed as ever to military interventions heedless of the consequences for the invaded and occupied people or even for those called upon to invade and occupy.

We believe that an honest remembrance of what actually went on in Viet Nam is essential – to face the realities for the millions of Vietnamese civilians killed, maimed, poisoned, and traumatized; our soldiers propagandized, thrown into a ‘war of choice’; and subsequently largely abandoned to cope with postwar stress, our citizenry lied to and manipulated who came to recognize the war’s futility, if not its immorality.

It is incumbent on us not to cede the war’s memory to those who have little interest in an honest accounting and who want to justify further acts of military adventurism. The experience of the war ought to be cautionary against the fantasy of world dominance that besots many of our political and military leaders. What are the consequences of trying to control the fate of a people from afar with little understanding or interest -- except for the purposes of counterinsurgency -- in their history and culture, or their human desires? What are the consequences of dehumanized ideologies used to justify wars of aggression? To honor the Viet Nam generation and to inform current and future generations, we should make every effort to pass on a critical and honest history of the war.

As part of our counter-commemoration, we also will also pay tribute to the broad-based resistance to the war. Taking inspiration from the civil rights movement, an unprecedented opposition movement arose not just on campuses, but in the streets, in the military, and around family dinner tables. Millions of Americans resisted the war spontaneously, as well as in organizations ranging from the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee to the Chicano Moratorium, Women’s Strike for Peace, the War Resistors League, the Fellowship of Reconciliation, American Friend Service Committee, Students for a Democratic Society, Labor for Peace, Business Executives Move for Viet Nam Peace, and Vietnam Veterans Against the War, not to mention countless community groups. The movement made the morality of the war an issue for Americans, moving beyond the cost-benefit analysis favored by the punditocracy. The war was wrong, not just too costly; as Martin Luther King warned in his “Beyond Vietnam” speech: “the US was on the wrong side of the world revolution.”

In tandem with the civil rights, Black liberation, and women’s movements, the anti-war movement fostered a cultural and intellectual revolution which undermined Euro-centrism and traditional hierarchies while honoring the previously marginalized. Our grasp of history, culture, and human capacity was qualitatively expanded. We learned and demonstrated that history could be made by ordinary people; by people of color, by women, by the ignored and excluded.

The work around the quincentennial of Columbus’s voyages is a useful precedent. Originally designed as a celebration of Eurocentrism and empire, widespread grassroots action instead turned the quincentennial into a critique of the conquest and destruction of native peoples.

We therefore are inviting you to join us in developing a strategy for an antiwar commemoration with direct relevance for today. Here are some beginning, suggestive ideas to expose the truths of war and pose alternatives to its normalization by developing:

A central storehouse of information, a web site, and digitized archives;
Curriculum for schools and colleges;
A speaker’s bureau;
A program on the model of the Viet Nam era’s teach-ins and Winter Soldier investigations;
Our own commemorations of significant war and antiwar events.

Sign here.


SOURCE: http://warisacrime.org/content/obamas-campaign-glorify-war-vietnam



And, thus money still trumps peace. Perhaps some things can never change.

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