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So let me get this straight? To understand the poor, you once had to be poor... (Original Post) trumad Jun 2014 OP
Apparently Evergreen Emerald Jun 2014 #1
That's about right. Doncha just love DUers, sometimes?...nt SidDithers Jun 2014 #2
bzzzzt. see post 3, sid dear. cali Jun 2014 #4
Is this a Clinton day or an Egypt day, dear cali?... SidDithers Jun 2014 #8
Right, what's with these moonbats? MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #12
it can be both sid, my delightful little canadian pal cali Jun 2014 #14
Well, I look forward, with eager anticipation, to whatever you come up with... SidDithers Jun 2014 #40
there are things in this world to be outraged by, sid my little canadian songbird cali Jun 2014 #50
you have it precisely wrong, tru cali Jun 2014 #3
Or simply reading those same comments without supporting context to more conveniently realize existi LanternWaste Jun 2014 #23
^^^^^THIS^^^^^ n/t ljm2002 Jun 2014 #57
and the same people promoting this meme love them some FDR FSogol Jun 2014 #5
To understand the poor, you do have to meet the poor and listen to them struggle4progress Jun 2014 #6
+1 nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #70
I don't think you necessarily had to be poor to understand, panader0 Jun 2014 #7
Exactly! pipi_k Jun 2014 #24
Agreed DustyJoe Jun 2014 #36
Thank you! Academic experience has its worth and benefits, but can never replace lived experience. Coventina Jun 2014 #31
Does it help? How does that explain Boehner? Freepers? I'd say first/foremost empathy helps. KittyWampus Jun 2014 #54
Maybe the experience of being poor is necessary but not sufficient. Jackpine Radical Jun 2014 #89
You don't have to be poor to understand, but talking about helping the poor while amassing millions Lee-Lee Jun 2014 #9
No Gman Jun 2014 #11
I disagree Lee-Lee Jun 2014 #19
Bill Gates is misguided in many of his attempts to help those less fortunate than he. Education is Squinch Jun 2014 #96
Why would they ring hollow? el_bryanto Jun 2014 #13
Making money is fine. Making millions or billions while complaining about inequality is hypocritical Lee-Lee Jun 2014 #20
I don't agree el_bryanto Jun 2014 #26
Income inequality is income inequality Lee-Lee Jun 2014 #27
OK - let me clarify something - are you in favor of a capitalist economy el_bryanto Jun 2014 #28
I'm a capitalist too JustAnotherGen Jun 2014 #34
If I had my way, pure socialism Lee-Lee Jun 2014 #38
I'd set the arbitrary overall amount higher Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #45
Social democracy (a la Denmark) is my ideal. nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #71
I don't even have a problem with that, my issue being full of shit pushing free trade deals, TheKentuckian Jun 2014 #75
I have seen no examples in my personal life PowerToThePeople Jun 2014 #37
Costco. n/t tammywammy Jun 2014 #46
+1 Hell yes... SomethingFishy Jun 2014 #64
What happened to provoke this? el_bryanto Jun 2014 #10
See "General Discussion." n/t FSogol Jun 2014 #15
Thanks for narrowing it down. I would have wasted hours in the Classic Films group. nt el_bryanto Jun 2014 #18
. BootinUp Jun 2014 #32
Not for everyone. Bonobo Jun 2014 #16
+8000000 nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #44
Pretty much. n/t nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #72
I hope not. MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #17
No 4Q2u2 Jun 2014 #21
"But if you are super rich and pass legislation that hurts poor people..." nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #73
Well I wouldn't pipi_k Jun 2014 #22
Seems like the opposite is true too - To understand the wealthy, you Rex Jun 2014 #25
I have been poor and I have been relatively "comfortable." merrily Jun 2014 #86
No idea, I've been poor and middle class. Rex Jun 2014 #88
Fine by me--as long as you say within your band of merrily Jun 2014 #94
In a country well governed Ichingcarpenter Jun 2014 #29
When will Hillary start 'commenting' on impoverished people? leftstreet Jun 2014 #30
She isn't campaigning firstly BootinUp Jun 2014 #35
What is this philanthropic organization of which you speak? tularetom Jun 2014 #42
Not campaigning? LOL merrily Jun 2014 #85
Technically correct, lol. BootinUp Jun 2014 #95
She's on a book tour. She's not campaigning for anything at the moment. Beacool Jun 2014 #90
I'm not sure what sparked this JustAnotherGen Jun 2014 #33
Yes, there is no such thing as "thinking" and "empathy" and "philosophy" betsuni Jun 2014 #39
So it's okay for the well-to-do to lecture the poor? nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #74
If you're going to not be poor and try to comment on the poor tularetom Jun 2014 #41
"...at least attempt to sound a bit sincere and convincing." nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #77
Nope. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #43
Isn't it grand here..we all had the same experience growing up so, well, we could never relate to... Tikki Jun 2014 #47
meme? reddread Jun 2014 #48
What about FDR & the Kennedy's? WI_DEM Jun 2014 #49
Did they say they were broke or they weren't really well off? merrily Jun 2014 #61
Simple, they were never broke. Beacool Jun 2014 #91
As to FDR and JFK, you don't know what they did or did not owe, since merrily Jun 2014 #93
FDR spent summers in a polio spa where the poorest people in Georgia Demeter Jun 2014 #84
Okay, I'll walk into the trap. I don't believe you can understand merrily Jun 2014 #51
Good post trumad Jun 2014 #59
! A surprised thank you. merrily Jun 2014 #60
Don't be surprised... trumad Jun 2014 #63
Thank you, but that so seldom seems to matter on this board. merrily Jun 2014 #83
great post, merrily. cali Jun 2014 #68
Having good friends from a variety of backgrounds also helps. nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #79
Experience gives one knowledge that abelenkpe Jun 2014 #52
It is a very particular, and irreplaceable, kind of knowledge. n/t nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #80
"By their fruit you will recognize them..." Romulox Jun 2014 #53
This is right in my wheelhouse nilesobek Jun 2014 #55
Why not? hughee99 Jun 2014 #56
Is this a sincere question, or is it just about Hillary? LWolf Jun 2014 #58
It can be both, no? merrily Jun 2014 #62
Yes. LWolf Jun 2014 #78
I am glad that help was available. merrily Jun 2014 #81
To truly understand it? Yes. You may be able to empathize with it... SomethingFishy Jun 2014 #65
If you have never been poor RainDog Jun 2014 #66
You can understand the poor, just don't patronize them by saying dilby Jun 2014 #67
I disagree that people who have never been poor can understand the poor. merrily Jun 2014 #82
Depends what you mean by "understand." Anyone can sympathize, even empathize to a degree. nomorenomore08 Jun 2014 #69
I know rich people who were once poor, and they're big assholes mainer Jun 2014 #76
I agree. There's some misconception that being poor inherently makes you a good person. Beacool Jun 2014 #92
Apparently so............. Beacool Jun 2014 #87

Evergreen Emerald

(13,069 posts)
1. Apparently
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:07 AM
Jun 2014

And you damn well better not mention the word money if you have any, or want any, or don't want any.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
8. Is this a Clinton day or an Egypt day, dear cali?...
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:16 AM
Jun 2014

Or is there some other, yet to be posted about outrage, that you're going to go off on today?

Sid

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
12. Right, what's with these moonbats?
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:20 AM
Jun 2014

Reading their claptrap, if a person didn't know any better, they might think this isn't the best of all possible worlds!

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
14. it can be both sid, my delightful little canadian pal
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:21 AM
Jun 2014

not that you've ever given any indication that torture is something to be outraged by, honey.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
40. Well, I look forward, with eager anticipation, to whatever you come up with...
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:26 AM
Jun 2014

Spin that wheel, dear cali.



Sid

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
50. there are things in this world to be outraged by, sid my little canadian songbird
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 11:00 AM
Jun 2014

torture would be one of them. continue with your oh so courageous indifference, siddy.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
3. you have it precisely wrong, tru
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:09 AM
Jun 2014

it's about being tone deaf and making stupid ass fucking comments that get blared ad nausem from the MSM.

simple.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
23. Or simply reading those same comments without supporting context to more conveniently realize existi
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:31 AM
Jun 2014

Or simply reading those same comments without supporting context to more conveniently realize existing biases...

panader0

(25,816 posts)
7. I don't think you necessarily had to be poor to understand,
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:14 AM
Jun 2014

but it sure helps. There are those who have never suffered poverty than can empathize, just as there are those who are not black that
may empathize about racism, or men who can empathize about rape. But until you have lived those things, it's only empathy.

DustyJoe

(849 posts)
36. Agreed
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:09 AM
Jun 2014

I equate it to going to an unmarried marriage counsellor.

They're not married, never lived thru any marital problems,
they empathize, but their only real understanding came from
reading a book about it.

Coventina

(26,808 posts)
31. Thank you! Academic experience has its worth and benefits, but can never replace lived experience.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:00 AM
Jun 2014

I don't understand why that seems to be so hard to grasp.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
54. Does it help? How does that explain Boehner? Freepers? I'd say first/foremost empathy helps.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 11:58 AM
Jun 2014

I think there are millions of people who grew up poor who don't "get it" and vote Republican.

Boehner was born in Reading, Ohio, the son of Mary Anne (née Hall) and Earl Henry Boehner, the second of twelve children. His father was of German descent and his mother had German and Irish ancestry.[3][4][5][6][7] He grew up in modest circumstances, having shared one bathroom with his eleven siblings in a two-bedroom house in Cincinnati. His parents slept on a pull-out couch.[8] He started working at his family's bar at age 8, a business founded by their grandfather Andy Boehner in 1938.[8] He has lived in Southwest Ohio his entire life. All but two of his siblings still live within a few miles of each other; two are unemployed and most of the others have blue-collar jobs.[9][10]

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
89. Maybe the experience of being poor is necessary but not sufficient.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:55 PM
Jun 2014

Anyway, there are levels of understanding. I think being poor provides the opportunity for a gut-level knowledge that the more well-off will never get. There are concomitants such as hopelessness that just don't translate well.

On the other hand, one can have a sort of intellectual understanding of poverty without having been immersed in it.

I am neither black nor female and would never claim that I fully grok the circumstances of either, but I can certainly have some intellectual understanding of their conditions, and I can have empathy.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
9. You don't have to be poor to understand, but talking about helping the poor while amassing millions
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:17 AM
Jun 2014

Is disingenuous at best.

If you preach against income inequality while your net worth is measured in millions and rising your words ring pretty hollow.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
19. I disagree
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:25 AM
Jun 2014

What is his net worth? 80 Billion or so?

What tiny percentage does he give back?

In what world, ever, does anyone need 80 BILLION dollars?

He does good work, sure, but don't kid yourself- it is a tiny fraction of his net worth and what he could be doing.

Relative to his wealth is is little more than window dressing.





Squinch

(50,670 posts)
96. Bill Gates is misguided in many of his attempts to help those less fortunate than he. Education is
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 06:32 PM
Jun 2014

one area where this is particularly glaring. Especially his ideas about education when those ideas are applied to education in poorer neighborhoods.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
13. Why would they ring hollow?
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:21 AM
Jun 2014

If someone runs a successful business that doesn't abuse its employees or harm the environment, that provides a service people want or need, and makes money off of it - why shouldn't such a person make money?

Or do you believe that in order to succeed in capitalism you have to abuse your employees?

Bryant

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
20. Making money is fine. Making millions or billions while complaining about inequality is hypocritical
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:30 AM
Jun 2014

If you want to make millions, and can, that is great for you.

But you can't be both out there making yourself far richer than most people will every be, having more money than you could ever need to live- and at the same time claim to honestly be bothered by income inequality. Because if you are amassing a net worth of millions pushing yourself deep into the 1% range and life you are part of the problem with income inequality.

A person whose net worth is measured in millions telling us that income inequality needs to be fixed is disingenuous at best.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
26. I don't agree
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:44 AM
Jun 2014

First of all the wealthy not only have outsized wealth they have outsized power. Things shouldn't be that way, but they currently are. Your policy would commit us to essentially kneecapping ourselves, by taking people who can reach politicians and taking away that ability.

Secondly, and importantly, it depends on how they make their millions - having a lot of money doesn't automatically make someone a selfish bastard - people make money in all sorts of ways.

Bryant

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
27. Income inequality is income inequality
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:50 AM
Jun 2014

How somebody made their money doesn't change it one bit.


Accepting inequality as long as the person continuing to make themselves even more unequal to the rest of us talks about how bad it is- that doesn't seem very smart, does it?

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
28. OK - let me clarify something - are you in favor of a capitalist economy
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:53 AM
Jun 2014

Well regulated capitalism such as we see in much of Europe, for example.

Or do you favor some other economic system?

I am a capitalist myself, which means that you are going to have winners and loser, in which case it does matter how someone makes their money.

Bryant

JustAnotherGen

(31,631 posts)
34. I'm a capitalist too
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:04 AM
Jun 2014
And I do think it depends on how someone makes their money - as well as those who work for them.
 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
38. If I had my way, pure socialism
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:10 AM
Jun 2014

But since that will never fly here, we need much more highly regulated capitalism.

Winners, sure- but limits on how much winning.

There is no legitimate reason to allow people to accumulate a net worth over a reasonable limit- say 3 million dollars. You could give me 3 million and I could live the rest of my life in comfort and never need another dime.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
45. I'd set the arbitrary overall amount higher
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:50 AM
Jun 2014

possibly even much, much higher, but have an transfer/inheritance cap, such that your total transfers during your life or inheritance after your life of wealth would cap out at maybe 5M per person.

So if you have 500M during your life, the most you can give to any one individual either during your life or after is 5M, and if you don't want the gov't to take most of it on your death, you better find 100 people you want to give 5M to at your death.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
71. Social democracy (a la Denmark) is my ideal.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:06 PM
Jun 2014

I recognize that some will, inevitably, always have more than others, but the "losers" should still have a minimally decent standard of living. I don't want to live in a glorified Third World country.

TheKentuckian

(24,904 posts)
75. I don't even have a problem with that, my issue being full of shit pushing free trade deals,
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:16 PM
Jun 2014

promoting austerity, enabling corporate capture, designing phony oversight schemes that put the abusers in the Catbird seat, killing welfare, eroding and corporatizing public education, deregulation, and busting unions.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
37. I have seen no examples in my personal life
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:09 AM
Jun 2014

Where

someone runs a successful business that doesn't abuse its employees or harm the environment, that provides a service people want or need, and makes money off of it - why shouldn't such a person make money?


Resulted in millionaires or billionaires.

Examples of such occurrences would be appreciated.

SomethingFishy

(4,876 posts)
64. +1 Hell yes...
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 04:46 PM
Jun 2014

Limits on management and executive pay, decent salaries and full bennies for the employees, and any savings is passed on to the customer. The model of ethical business.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
10. What happened to provoke this?
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:19 AM
Jun 2014

This is a RW Meme of course - it's what the phrase limousine liberal points to. And of course those who are upper middle class or wealthy are big hypocrites for not giving away all their money to the poor.

But not sure that's what you are talking about here.

Bryant

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
16. Not for everyone.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:22 AM
Jun 2014

But when someone doesn't get it, it is pretty fucking obvious.

Like a person who says they have worked "hard" to get as rich as they are (even though they collect tens of thousands of dollars for a single speech written by someone else) or that they "aren't obsessed with money" (failing to recognize that it is because they are privileged so that they never HAVE to worry about it)/

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
21. No
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:31 AM
Jun 2014

But if you are super rich and pass legislation that hurts poor people (Welfare Reform?) or makes lots more of them (NAFTA?).
All the while sitting in your Non-Prophit Ivory Tower behind the solid Mahogany Desk the OPTICS do not align.

Then your child of privilage tells the grueling tale of being a professional student and job hopping till the "right one" comes along. What are the chances it is at Mommies and Dadies Non-Prophit.

BTW Hubby called and he has to cancel dinner at Nobu. He is doing God's Hedge Fund work. You know so they have enough money to help the poor.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
73. "But if you are super rich and pass legislation that hurts poor people..."
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:11 PM
Jun 2014

Which is why, if you go by the Gospels, the Paul Ryans of the world are going straight to hell.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
22. Well I wouldn't
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:31 AM
Jun 2014

begrudge anyone the right to comment on the poor, but seriously, I would question how anyone could be able to truly understand the poor, or what it's like unless they've been there.


Just like anyone who's never been filthy rich can only imagine what it's like to be filthy rich.

Or how someone who's never lost a child can only imagine what that's like.


So I say, people can comment all they want to on various conditions or situations in life...just don't insult someone who's been there by saying "I understand what _____ feels like". Because unless you've been there, you don't understand at all.




 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
25. Seems like the opposite is true too - To understand the wealthy, you
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:34 AM
Jun 2014

once had to be wealthy and if you were never wealthy, how dare you comment on the wealthy.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
86. I have been poor and I have been relatively "comfortable."
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:47 PM
Jun 2014

May I comment on the poor and the "comfortable?"

merrily

(45,251 posts)
94. Fine by me--as long as you say within your band of
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 06:26 PM
Jun 2014

the middle class. The term covers a lot of territory. Americans with a very wide range of assets and income consider themselves middle class. Hillary compared herself now with those who are "really well off," implying she isn't. And Bill Maher also attempted to distinguish himself by referring to to something like the .0001% as the wealthy.

On the other end, I bet you could find someone making 19K a year who would self-identify as middle class.

So, don't be posting too much above or below your lane, now, or I'll be after you, hear?

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
29. In a country well governed
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:55 AM
Jun 2014

In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of.
Confucius

leftstreet

(36,064 posts)
30. When will Hillary start 'commenting' on impoverished people?
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 09:59 AM
Jun 2014

That would be nice

All she's doing, in typical fashion, is talking about herself

BootinUp

(46,848 posts)
35. She isn't campaigning firstly
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:04 AM
Jun 2014

secondly she IS working for a philanthropic organization. Check it out, this years events are happening all week.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
42. What is this philanthropic organization of which you speak?
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:35 AM
Jun 2014

And how does her book tour further her volunteer work for said philanthropic organization?

Will she be donating the proceeds from book sales to it?

Beacool

(30,243 posts)
90. She's on a book tour. She's not campaigning for anything at the moment.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:55 PM
Jun 2014

Of course she's talking about herself and her book.

Book tour - political campaign, are not one and the same.

JustAnotherGen

(31,631 posts)
33. I'm not sure what sparked this
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:02 AM
Jun 2014

But I think you need to empathise with those who are poor. You have to listen to what they are saying. And it doesn't hurt to go out into the community and help the poor.

I'm talking about hands on - volunteers and do booster work for a food bank. That's a good place. Because there you will find the Americans who work their fingers to the bone but still don't have enough to eat.

betsuni

(25,060 posts)
39. Yes, there is no such thing as "thinking" and "empathy" and "philosophy"
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:16 AM
Jun 2014

If you do not experience something yourself, it does not exist. How dare doctors tell diabetics what diet they should follow if those doctors are not diabetics themselves. The nerve.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
74. So it's okay for the well-to-do to lecture the poor?
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:13 PM
Jun 2014

That's what your doctor/patient analogy seems to suggest, intentionally or not.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
41. If you're going to not be poor and try to comment on the poor
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:31 AM
Jun 2014

at least attempt to sound a bit sincere and convincing.

Bill Clinton was an expert at it. He could talk about how much he loved the poor even while he was implementing policies that screwed them.

Obama is pretty good at it as well.

The Romneys, of course, sucked at it. They sounded condescending and insincere. Hillary is pretty much in the Romney mold. And since timing is everything, Chelsea needed to wait awhile before blurting out to god and everybody how much she didn't care about money while she was drawing a fat salary working at daddy and mommy's big money "foundation".

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
77. "...at least attempt to sound a bit sincere and convincing."
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:18 PM
Jun 2014

And try to hide your contempt for average working folks - which Romney couldn't manage. At all.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
43. Nope.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:44 AM
Jun 2014

But if you and your immediate family are all worth 8 figures, you don't get to go around talking as if you're poor, or blithely saying you don't 'care' about money without people realizing you're completely out of touch with 99% of America.

Tikki

(14,532 posts)
47. Isn't it grand here..we all had the same experience growing up so, well, we could never relate to...
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:50 AM
Jun 2014

what ms. Clinton Mezvinsky is talking about and her lack of abundant love for money.

I don't love money, as an adult I only let it do what I specifically want it to do.
As a child I was held an emotional hostage by two people who used money to avoid me at all costs.

Yeah, I never went hungry and always had a place to sleep and I understand the importance of that.

But, ms. Clinton Mezvinsky's only problem with her statement is that she didn't spill her guts as to
why she feels that way so that you all could talk about every little detail of why she made that statement.

Tikki


merrily

(45,251 posts)
61. Did they say they were broke or they weren't really well off?
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 12:49 PM
Jun 2014

Not part of the income equality problem because they pay income taxes?

Beacool

(30,243 posts)
91. Simple, they were never broke.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:58 PM
Jun 2014

If you owe $12M and don't have even a third of that amount, aren't you broke? She never said that they weren't able to make money after they left the WH.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
93. As to FDR and JFK, you don't know what they did or did not owe, since
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 06:16 PM
Jun 2014

owing is your criterion, so you have no clue whether they were ever broke or not, by your criterion. But that was not my question about them anyway. "Simple, they never said it" is the right answer to my question. The whole point of this is Hillary's claiming she was broke, so rich Presidents who never tried poormouth have no relevance.

If you owe $12M and don't have even a third of that amount, aren't you broke?


First, I don't agree that was Hillary's economic situation. Second, if your net worth is down, but you have ample resources and know that you are going to be much richer very soon, who the fuck cares if you owe money for a minute and a half? You are not poor, period.
 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
84. FDR spent summers in a polio spa where the poorest people in Georgia
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:41 PM
Jun 2014

provided his care and invited him into their houses.

He OBSERVED, and shared their poverty. Then he went to Washington and did something about it.

The Kennedys, raised as Catholics back when Catholicism stood for good works, had similar exposure.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
51. Okay, I'll walk into the trap. I don't believe you can understand
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 11:29 AM
Jun 2014

what it is to live like a poor person unless you've been a poor person.

You can have sympathy. You can care. you can be willing to "transfer wealth", but, unless you've lived it, you will never get what it is like to worry every day of your life that your kids might need something that you can't provide, let alone almost never being able to give them what they want. Or that your fever might go high enough that you won't be able to work and you'll miss a day's pay.

And no, living in your mansion on a welfare budget for a week by choice doesn't come close. Not even the same universe. It's the grinding poverty, day after day, the stress, the fear for your kids, etc.


Nor can I understand what it is to have more money than I or the next several generations of my descendants will need unless that somehow becomes my reality someday.

Seriously, is this really a controversial concept?

The expression "until you've walked a mile in my [his][her] shoes" did not become an expression for no reason.

But, Hillary and Chelsea make a couple of tone deaf comments, so we are going to deny the existence of something we once all assumed without question was true? Something most or all of us have probably said or posted or thought ourselves more than once, believing it to be true?

This is about the most ridiculous I've seen this place get.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
83. Thank you, but that so seldom seems to matter on this board.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:40 PM
Jun 2014

You make good points and they are ignored. The other poster just moves the goalpost somewhere else or changes the subject entirely. There is an agenda to be pushed, not a desire to consider other views.

That is my perception anyway.

So, given your OP and my experiences on this board, yes, I was surprised. Gratified and delighted, yes, but also surprised.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
68. great post, merrily.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 04:56 PM
Jun 2014

I'm in the odd position of understanding both. I'm actually grateful for the experiences.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
79. Having good friends from a variety of backgrounds also helps.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:25 PM
Jun 2014

The kids I grew up with ranged from near-poverty to very upper-middle-class, so I at least got a small taste of life experiences quite different from my own.

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
52. Experience gives one knowledge that
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 11:48 AM
Jun 2014

Others cannot ever really fully grasp though they may try. It doesn't mean that wealthy people can't attempt to empathize or learn about poverty. But they can't fully grasp it unless they experience it.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
53. "By their fruit you will recognize them..."
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 11:54 AM
Jun 2014
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:16

nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
55. This is right in my wheelhouse
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 11:58 AM
Jun 2014

so I will give it a shot. Some of the poor, like me, know that they are totally vulnerable to criticism from people who are better off and have not made the same choices as I have. Some of the poor don't deserve the criticism because there were no choices involved in driving them to poverty. It only takes one injury or chronic illness to take a whole family down and make them homeless. What would be the criticism of them? "You wouldn't have got cancer if you took better care of yourself," or something like that.

I had this idea to create a reality show. You take billionaires and put them on the street with nothing. This would last months and years at a time. They don't get any cash, credit cards or vehicles, just the clothes on their backs. What I'm really curious about is whether or not the billionaires, with their enterprising spirits, being the job creators and all those qualities the GOP promotes, would do better than the average homeless dude. If you leveled the playing field would they survive? There is something visceral and stimulating about living rough. Even though I'm not in camp anymore I'm still in "camp mode." Sleeping in 2 or 3 hour shifts, being super alert like a watchdog and always looking for opportunities to get well.

I'm definitely of the opinion that all discourse about the poor should be discussed.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
56. Why not?
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 12:07 PM
Jun 2014

I've heard this type of argument applied to various minority groups, women, and teachers. Why not the poor, too?

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
58. Is this a sincere question, or is it just about Hillary?
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 12:39 PM
Jun 2014

Leaving HRC out of the issue...

I think that, in most cases, to understand the poor, you have to have walked in their shoes for awhile, at least.

Empathy, compassion, and action to help the poor don't have to come from being poor, but true understanding? For most, at least some kind of background experience might be necessary.

As far as HRC goes? I don't give a shit. Her dumbass words are being used against her. She's a politician. That's par. She's a politician. She can take it.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
62. It can be both, no?
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 12:59 PM
Jun 2014

I agree with you almost completely, maybe completely, depending on the meaning of this:


I think that, in most cases, to understand the poor, you have to have walked in their shoes for awhile, at least.


If you were poor for a while, with little to no prospect of not being poor, but then you won the lottery, maybe. And, even then, you will not have experienced what it is to be poor, day in and day out, year in and year out until you drop.

But, if you living in poverty doing it as an experiment, or while you are in Harvard Medical School, knowing full well it's only temporary, I am not sure that, even then, you can get it.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
78. Yes.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:18 PM
Jun 2014

Living in "poverty" as an experiment, where there is a clear way "out," is not the experience of living with no way out.

I have lived in poverty. I still struggle to a lesser degree, but I remember what it was like to be evicted and have no place to go.

I remember what it was like to have the utilities turned off and no $$ to turn them back on.

I remember what it was like to have no food in the cupboard, and no surety of getting any soon.

I remember what it was like to fear losing a job because I had no way to get there.

I spent a decade, beginning at age 17, living like that.

I always worked hard. Laziness was not the problem. I knew how to live frugally; I didn't really know any other way. The only way out was help from others.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
81. I am glad that help was available.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:33 PM
Jun 2014

And since you lived in poverty for a decade with little hope, you probably get it.

But that is very different from the examples I gave.

Blessings.

SomethingFishy

(4,876 posts)
65. To truly understand it? Yes. You may be able to empathize with it...
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 04:51 PM
Jun 2014

but until you've had to decide whether to buy necessary medicine for your child, or food for the whole family, until you've worked 80 hour weeks and still came home and weren't able to properly provide for your family, no you have no fucking idea what it is like. You have no idea the weight people carry.

I assume this has to do with Hillary. You know, she going to be the candidate, and I really try to like her, but commenting on how "broke" you are trying to pay for multiple mortgages and an Ivy League education, does not endear yourself to someone who is trying to pay for medication and food. You know, actual necessities.

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
66. If you have never been poor
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 04:52 PM
Jun 2014

you cannot know what it is like to be poor.

This is a reality.

You simply cannot know what it's like.

Of course people can comment on the poor, but, no, you cannot fully understand what it's like.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
67. You can understand the poor, just don't patronize them by saying
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 04:54 PM
Jun 2014

you were poor when you had millions in assets.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
82. I disagree that people who have never been poor can understand the poor.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:35 PM
Jun 2014

I think Hillary's comments demonstrate that amply.

She is clueless about a life of poverty.

And also clueless about what to say on the subject.

Both are true.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
69. Depends what you mean by "understand." Anyone can sympathize, even empathize to a degree.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 04:59 PM
Jun 2014

But can someone really have full knowledge or comprehension of a situation they've never experienced firsthand?

mainer

(12,010 posts)
76. I know rich people who were once poor, and they're big assholes
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 05:17 PM
Jun 2014

They think "if I could do it, then everyone who can't is a loser and deserves poverty."

So no, I think some rich people are a lot better at understanding the needs of the poor.

Beacool

(30,243 posts)
92. I agree. There's some misconception that being poor inherently makes you a good person.
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 06:01 PM
Jun 2014

I've seen both. Great, caring people who are wealthy and some downright bastards who happened to be poor. Since when does income define the quality of the person? I don't get people here.

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