so that's not going to happen.

1) A pardon protects them under U.S. law, not international law.

2) They are NEVER going to be charged, even without a pardon. The U.S. is NEVER going to to prosecute a politician for war crimes. NEVER.

Understand, I would give a kidney to see it happen, but it just is not going to happen.

Only god knows what goes on in Romero's brain these days...

Unless this "pardon" proposal is some kind of bait to destroy Obama, since the left would abandon him en masse if he was dumb enough to do this...

Then their 5th amendment concerns go away, and they could be compelled to testify.

half of the sentence they received. They can't be pardoned without being convicted of something.
What has this man been smoking?

All he has to do is change a few names and phrases, hit print in his word processor, and viola, instant pardon for our favorite war criminals.

And they'll be remembered as "pardoned war criminals" forever.

It's not as much fun as imagining them in prison, but I'm afraid it's the best we're gonna get. And if Obama doesn't do it, it probably won't get done. No republican will touch this thing with a 10 foot pole. And that includes H. Clinton, since she's personal friends with most of them.

Thank you for the post, important to know this as the mass media scream for pardons for the war criminals they helped to create.

as mis-read. I apologize for my error.

Most administrations have pardon attorneys who follow strict guidelines to keep the process orderly. These pardons would not be subject to these guidelines

If Obama pardons Cheney and Siegelman in prison I will begin to support the calls for impeachment

as follows:

my error.

a reference I like that is easy to navigate:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/

Constitution; other legal documents and recent SCOTUS activity.

The ONLY limitations are that the president can only pardon federal offenses and that the crime has to have already been committed (can't preemptively pardon) b

Ford Pardoned Nixon sans conviction as did Carter with those who evaded the draft.

states -- for a pardon by a governor -- but it is not accurate for a presidential pardon for a federal crime.

Richard Nixon.

As accepting would essentially be an admission of guilt.

A trip to Europe would likely lead to arrest and trial.

When you google travel for Bush- https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Bush+can%27t+travel+to+countries

I think only one person was able to sue Cheney? and his case dropped off the face of the earth, probably settled /w non-disclosure. (or worse happened to him?)

THIS CARD MAY BE KEPT UNTIL NEEDED OR SOLD - handy

It's in the president's power to grant it, not theirs to accept it. It would simply be a fact, not an agreement between two parties.

Burdick v. United States (1915):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdick_v._United_States

United States v. Wilson 32 U.S. 150 (1833)
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/32/150/

I didn't know that. I don't really buy their reasoning, but that's the law as it stands.

The pardon is a unilateral act on the part of the embodiment of national law enforcement.

See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5931321

Dems just need the balls to use the info in the report to publisize the type of politicians the RW truly are.

The elites way of admitting to war crimes, but staying out of prison and not travelling to some places on the global But hey with the money the BFEE has, don't be surprised if they buy a country or part of one move there and build their own mercenary nation.

You just KNOW the next big thing in global warfare are mercenary nations.

In fact, Cheney bragged.

our duties and responsibilities under the Geneva Convention on Torture (signed by Reagan and ratified by the Senate during George H.W. Bush's presidency). That Convention has the same force and scope as the U.S. Constitution.

That was a smart move, either admit it or take them to court for what? Defamation of character or slander? However that does not mean they cannot be arrested and impounded (giggles) in another country like Germany. I dunno if that could be used as evidence in another nation's court, but they would have proof that the BFEE admitted to lying about a lot of things.

Put up or shut up. Fuck your museum you warmongering asshole. I'd love to see Cheney arrested in France or Germany.

I like the ACLU's approach here

Doing so would prevent torture in the future and allow them to testify against the people they gave orders to.

GOOOO ACLU! They're really kicking butt here.

But this seems a little much. Why would we grant a pardon? It seems irrelevant and circumspect to the laws of the land. We should prosecute the hell out of those fuckers and the fact that we don't says a great deal about the immunity already granted to the top privileged sectors of our society.

I say NO! Prosecute the bastards and now may actually be the time as the people will be pissed when the report comes or leaks out and that could make it possible. I'd be satisfied with Cheney. I don't think Bush is actually guilty. The guys Cheney's yahoo. He doesn't have the brains to be guilty of anything.

Just streaming of consciousness thoughts ... yeah I'm definitely against a "pardon".

Seriously, who can actually believe this argument? Let the powerful guilty walk away scot free and somehow, magically, torture will never happen again! That worked great with the financial sector.

Damn, this really is just disgusting. They'll gin up a few tears, trot out some bullshit like "mistakes were made," and go back to their mansions while the rest of the country gets to pay for their sins. Yeah, more consequence-free behavior for the rich and powerful is really what the country needs.

Pro = Bush and Cheney would be admitting guilt, even though they are forced to take it.
Con = The rat bastards would be out of hot water legally. At least in this country.

Damn.

Even if Siegelman did what is claimed against him, and I am not conceding that anything he may have done was illega., his act was nothing compared to the torture that Bush and Cheney and their staffs approved and ordered.

i differ with the ACLU on this. The harm that the torture did in at least one case as I understand to an innocent victim who was taken and tortured based on a false identification, cannot be healed or made good.

I think that Bush and Cheney should at least apologize first. Really. Torture hurts the soul of the victim. It is not an act that can just be walked away from. At the very least, Obama should not give a pardon unless Bush and Cheney and their staffs request one and admit to their crimes.

Siegelman and Kiriakou.

You can prosecute them. You can make them subject to foreign prosecution by releasing information that could lead to indictments abroad. But the president issuing backhanded Scarlett Letter pardons is a dumb idea.

American's need to see the trial of those that broke the Law. No special treatment just because the alleged offenders happen to be the Pres and VP of the US! We are all equal under the law ..... correct?

As opposed to letting people in power do whatever the fuck they want without consequence.

If they're not guilty they have nothing to fear vis a vis extradition. Right?

and did something wrong.
Major General Geoffrey D. Miller had no prehistory. No accomplices in high places through successive administrations. None at all. That's because shit happens, then it vanishes and yes, I'll have a coke and fries with that Big Mac. Who could imagine it without?

The US isn't a terrorist nation. Drones are benign. The US believes in the one true god, but except for in the "red states" downplays the sanctity of it, preferring to tout their love of democracy and freedom. They, the terrorists y'know, hate freedom. We all know that, it's bred in our bones. The hundreds of thousands of dead all deserved it. Muslims, Arabs, in this iteration, you know. Brown, or mostly brown - and speaking different languages. I'm sure the focus will shift for the next iteration of freedom loving US foreign policy but please, lets continue giving this iteration a righteous go. And why not? It's so much fun, it's so feel-good.

Terrorists are what the US is at war against, and the fact that the war is against terror justifies everything.
If you don't believe me, just read DU for a week or so. You're sure to be convinced.

To be effective, the person to be pardoned must accept it which would be an admission of guilt.I would love to see these rat bastards squirm trying to make that decision. My bet is that other than Cheney, the weasels would accept them.

Who wrote the script "the only other option is to look forward", whatever that might mean?

Where are you, on the highway to hell or something that you're white knuckling it onward? You have no choice to pull aside, find a room to rest, to pause and think coherent thoughts about the total surround situation? Is your reality entirely determined by FOX vs. MSNBC propagandists, by their mind-game?

obviously you missed the reference.

http://www.salon.com/2009/01/12/obama_prosecutor/



Obama's justice department grants final immunity to Bush's CIA torturers
Glenn Greenwald

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/31/obama-justice-department-immunity-bush-cia-torturer

"By closing two cases of detainees tortured to death, Obama has put the US beyond any accountability under the rule of law ..."

The suggestion that a pardon would somehow stop such a thing from happening again is laughable.
This is not a nation of laws.

A Brave New World Order Thing.

I had a lost luggage delivery service that was doing nicely. I was getting paid 1.50$ a mile one way. After 9/11 I lost the business instantly because the airport was swarmed with AR-15 toting soldiers and I was informed I needed a million dollars insurance to continue. This partially contributed to my decade of homelessness.

Fast forward to current events: It looks like they are going to get away with it no matter what. Its only us that have to obey the laws of the land, to follow the rules, to wear my seat belt, to have car insurance, to get a medical marijuana card. Anything to stay legal and do the right thing for me. These are violent criminals who committed violent crimes yet I would be in more trouble for speeding etc.

I HAVE HAD IT WITH THIS SHIT. No matter what happens about the report or prosecutions, my government will always be a dirtbag torturing sadist.

....of his actual CRIMES. On record in the history books for all time. Because this is the thing: there is no pardon without a crime having taken place.

So when I heard that the ACLU was proposing this for the same reason, well who better to propose this inherently distasteful,action?

There is no way TPTB, and that includes most in the Democratic Party as well as the Republican Party will admit any guilt as they seem fine with torture. They just.don't.care. There are no plans by the current administration to even charge them with those crimes against humanity. So, asking him to pardon them is making the assumption they would even be charged in the first place. They won't. So, it is a moot point. They are wasting their money with this one, because nothing is going to get done about it anyhow. So, with no trial or charges pending or even being planned, there is no point in doing this.

just because people have lobbied the white house to pardon those fucking war criminals, doesn't mean he will.

I will wait and see what happened before I go crazy with anger.

on edit, When I said link, I meant one that was not an opinion piece and was something with actual evidence of Obama leaning that way

torture had taken place under them. Not enhanced interrogation, but torture.

miserable lives behind the Invisible iron Curtain.

Part of international law allows for prosecution if a country (USA) is unable or unwilling to prosecute

i think not

the hatred obama is just too strong

.have the threat of international prosecution hanging over their heads the rest of their lives.

ACLU dude has lost it.

I'll never give a freakin' dime to the ACLU again.

How DARE they.

If Obama doesn't want the job of having his justice department getting involved, just dump Cheney on the front steps of the Hague. I'm sure there are countries that would stand in line to bring these guys to trial.

Just look at what we are turning into inside our United States… militarization of our own police forces? Secret budgets for decades and the left-overs from drug seizures and foreign theaters of operations are in our own back yard.

Yes, I'd say we are mired deep in torture. We have met the enemy. I have steadily since BushCo been so ashamed of being an American. Now we can all say it. We are the domestic terrorists as well as the ones in charge of what we easily termed, "the big lie" when it was the other guy.

That theory is such a load of bullshit. I'd say we have a better suggested course to repair the damage by -

1) Charging the Bush Administration with international war crimes

2) Dissolve the CIA. Blow it into a thousand pieces like Kennedy was ready to do. How much more harm can we afford.

...it tells readers and viewers they have committed criminal acts (war crimes).

nt