as Fox News and talk radio prove. Anyone who gets in the way is bound to be attacked.

It's not just busting unions. They want to bust Democracy.



The plan spelled out, by a lawyer for Big Tobacco soon-to-turn Supreme Court justice:

It would help you understand how the media became so, uh, conservative.

Confidential Memorandum: Attack of American Free Enterprise System

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/powell_memo_lewis/

Remember, Logical: Ignorance is not bliss.

I don't see it.

the rest of us rightly pointed out how much BS the OP was, plus the follow up posts don't help much either.

What have you got to say about Amazing Randi or debunking or piling on?

Does any of that change the truth?

attempting to discredit his skepticism work. You failed, I'm pleased to say.

If I had posted this OP I would be embarrassed.

Oh, wait, lol! I just checked the thread!



Octafish is one of DU's best btw ... one of the reasons people still come here.

As I said, looking at the thread, I completely understood where you were coming from. It made me laugh, which is always a good thing imo.

who don't live in reality...

I wrote about it on DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023811787

but hey, it makes it entertaining!

Most of the people who use that phrase use it to shut down discussion. For example:

"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories." -- George Walker Bush, GOP-appointed pretzeldent of the United States

I'm interested in political power and those who wield it, particularly when those "in authority" do so in secret. Here's a good example:

[font color="red"]Nixon approved hiring a Secret Service man who said he'd 'kill on command' to guard Ted Kennedy. [/font color]

You can hear Nixon and Haldeman discuss it, about 40 minutes into the HBO documentary "Nixon by Nixon." While I had read the part of the transcript available years ago, and wrote about it on DU, almost no one I know has heard anything about it.

people see that now, it has the opposite effect of what they intend. It causes people to wonder 'why are they trying to silence people'?

It's so well known now where the tactic of using that phrase came from that the minute it appears it's time to start getting interested in whatever they are trying to hide.

Keep up the good work Octafish, all the 'right' people would prefer you didn't.

Sid

with replies #83 and #94 we see Octafish's agenda and who he sees as authoritative sources.

I'll stick with Randi.

It's finding and sharing Truth. My approach is closer to that of Charles Forte. Lo:

http://www.forteana.org/

You're the first person to shout "SMEAR!!!" anytime anyone's critical of one of your heroes.

The truth is, you've sourced material from authors who've committed far greater sins, and hold far more odious opinions, than James Randi. Your continued linking to Paul Craig Roberts is the obvious example.

I guess I find blatant hypocrisy kinda funny.

Sid

The fact you serve to confuse the issue, SidDithers of DU, shows who the hypocrite is.

Sid

Like showing Randi to be a hypocrite.

That's been amply demonstrated over the many years.

Sid

Otherwise, you'd show where, instead of just saying.

Speaking of just talk: You never do explain why you have spent years following what I write. Why is that? It it to discredit me?

Look, I don't know the facts of the case and I am not going to say that Randi handled it as well as he should have. What I will say however is that when someone who claims their dogs have ESP accuses another person of lying because they did not properly document their criticism of the dogs with ESP claim, I am generally going to believe the guy who doesn't believe that dogs can see the future.

Dogs do not have ESP, who knows, but I am with the guy with a 50 year career reputation.

They know when it is time to be fed, when you go for a walk, and when you come home from work. They have good hearing and can recognize the sound of your car well before it comes into view.

Because they can hear much better than us, doesn't mean they have ESP.

My Cockatiel would start calling well before I got home. She could hear my car too.

But it's not that impressive. He moves his lips as he sounds out the words in his head. He's 1st grade level at best.

TlalocW

when its half an hour away. She has his random routine figured out too. She has really good ears.

Predators learn the behavior of their prey.

The incident with Sheldrake exposes Randi as a dishonest man with zero integrity.

If you read the article, Randi admits he's a liar. The director of a flattering film about Randi admits he's a liar and states that “Sometimes there are greater truths you can reach when you don’t adhere to the facts.”

To be clear, we're not talking about "lying" in the context of a performance or as some type of misunderstanding or miscommunication -- we're talking about a deliberate attempt on Randi's part to deceive people.

Can you show us your data on this?

Randi *admits* to lying. Once you've established that someone will LIE in pursuit of their desired outcome, you can no longer believe anything they say.

But by all means, carry on with your denial-fest. Oh, the irony.

also seems to deliberately misunderstanding burden of proof as well. There's no irony here, just bitter, gullible people who want their pet superstitions and beliefs to be reinforced and are downright pissed that someone helps shine the light of critical thinking and doubt on their cherished beliefs.

Randi ADMITS he lied. The director of his film ADMITS Randi is a liar (whose lies he justifies in pursuit of "greater truths&quot And yet, Randi's loyal followers continue to defend him with the fervor of religious zealots.

The irony abounds.

Its obvious who is being dishonest here.

ON EDIT: Also, and this is the important part, what is he lying about?

Randi, in his interview with Dog World magazine, lied about having replicated Sheldrake's research. His whole story began to fall apart and he made up another embarrassing lie about having lost all his data in a hurricane. Eventually he admitted lying.

If you actually read the article in the OP, you'll find there are a number of examples of Randi being caught lying. This man has zero integrity. Sorry, not sorry if that gives you a sad.

But Sheldrake, who still hasn't had his research properly published, nor revealed all his data, he's the honest one.

Your post summed it all up succinctly.

I don't think you know what irony is.
How ironic...

...or for anyone's data who had reproduced the claimed effect.

It's easy enough to do it for a few dozen or even a few hundred owners, but it'd cost a bit of money. I keep looking for a blind, scientific, fully thought out approach to doing it. But I have found nothing.

And yes I doubt Sheldrake has done a blind experiment of the level required. There are a lot of variables to take into account.

Yeah, and our cats always seem to know when we're coming home. Time after time, they're in the windows looking out at us when we pull up in the evening - it must be ESP!!!!!

Something that James Randi (and many other skeptics) has been talking about for decades.

Science and skepticism. The only solution.

Seeing ESP in dogs is probably a misunderstanding of the behavior of a social animal.

Otherwise Randi would have to give out that million dollars that he has dangled for so many years. Many applicants, no winners, mainly because woo-woo is imaginary, not real.

John Edward???? (The cheesy cold reader, and the biggest douche in the universe -- according to South Park).

Sylvia Browne???? (OOOPSIE! She's dead, without ever having taken the challenge that she said she would.)

Faith healers. Well, Randi exposed more than one of those slimy devils, including Peter Popoff on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show. It did not matter. Popoff is back at the same game. Frauds like him are unsinkable rubber duckies. Don't get me started about Bennie (yup, all evangelical pastors have comb overs) Hinn.

Etc.

But don't you just love the pet psychic? She said that some dude's pet alligator was hungry. Perfect! Who could have predicted that? It is just too bad the alligator did not sate himself by swallowing the pet psychic. Now that would be perfect television.

However, as Randi has said many times, the scammers never, ever take the challenge. It is only those who are delusional, or mad as hatters. People like Sylvia Browne, John Edward, Uri Geller, etc. never take the challenge because they KNOW that they are scamming.

Miraculous proof of canine precognition? - You decide.

If I recall correctly, the claim was that the dogs were able to repeat their correct predictions no matter how much the pattern of the owner's movements was changed. Or rather, even when there was no pattern. And as I recall, the dogs predicted the imminent arrival of the owners as they were still some considerable distance away and well outside of the dog's range of hearing.

What's important here is not the validity of Sheldrake's work (I wouldn't know about that either way), it's the fact that Randi lied about it.

Here's an article that discusses the problems with Randi's million dollar challenge in depth:

http://www.dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge

And here's an interesting short video I found of Sheldrake himself discussing his dealings with Randi:

Say who? The guy who lied about Dog ESP????


No complaint about Randi has ever been verified by someone without an agenda.

Charlatans hate to be found out! Sylvia Brown used to claim the most ridiculous things about Randi.... none ever verified.

This is just more of that kind of stuff.

I think people should be just a little more skeptical about someone who claims dogs have esp.

I'm with you - who cares? Why should anyone care about someone else's inner thoughts about how the world works unless and until those thoughts cause them to inflict harm on others?

Marketing is something else altogether.

If someone believes in homeopathy and wants to use it for themselves, no harm done. If someone wants to push it to make a profit off of others, that's another thing entirely.

Fine by me if you want to condemn the latter. Not fine by me if you want to condemn the former. People ought to be free to make their own choices without being accused of committing mind-crimes.

the article illuminates nothing negative about James Randi's activities outside of he sometimes makes mistakes, big deal. He debunks faith healers, homeopathy, psychics, etc. People, companies, and groups that actively seek out some of the most vulnerable in our society and take advantage of them.

How does it take advantage of vulnerable people? It's just an idea that some might find intriguing and others not. So what? Have we reached the once-and-for-all decisive pinnacle of all human knowledge and there now remains nothing unexplained or unexplored?

to have "scientific proof" then try to shift the burden on those asking for that "proof".

Oh, and don't call it scientific, or science, and don't claim that a conspiracy is suppressing your "research" when you cannot produce consistent results using scientifically valid controls for accuracy.

And no we don't have to be at the pinnacle of knowledge to know certain things aren't true, indeed, in science, we ADMIT we don't know, we don't try to shoehorn in superstitious beliefs about ESP, etc. to pretend to have knowledge, that isn't knowledge, that is belief. People need to learn the difference.

Dogs most likely don't have ESP, certainly not in any way that Sheldrake believes, indeed, we would have to wrong about a LOT of biology and the nature of matter for his beliefs to be factual. What dogs do have, though, are extraordinary senses compared to humans, they can hear sounds and smell smells that I can't even imagine, just like I can see more shades of color and with more vibrancy that they could ever imagine.

could have, if he wanted to be, have become rich being Uri Geller before Uri Geller was even around, but instead decided to NOT take advantage of the gullibility of people and instead decided to expose those who would defraud others.

Look what it does for the GOP!


(It harms people by allowing them not think reasonably....and be OK with it.)

That sounds awfully authoritarian to me. Who gets to decide which kind of thoughts are "reasonable" and which kind of thoughts are not?

We ought to be free in our own minds to think whatever the hell kind of thoughts we want to think.

You can think any damn fool thing you want.


And you can also be called a fool for doing so.


This attitude that all opinions are equally OK and deserving of respect is what is sending the US back to the stone age!

If your notions are stupid, unfounded and ridiculously untrue.... then they should be mocked and then dismissed. Who wants to live in a world of made up fantasied and ideas that are just plain wrong?.... besides a toddler (and religious people).

Grow up! It's often dangerous to ignore what is true.

Do you believe unicorns exist? Or fairies in you garden? Or that you can fly if you just believe hard enough?

No?

How authoritarian of you!

Government to run everyone's life, for their own good of course?

Personally I like people who are independent, even if I personally don't agree with them.

Sounds to me like you want everyone to march in lockstep with the Government keeping a close eye on them.

I prefer a free country where we have our eccentrics and loners and individuals, who harm no one, but simply have different views on things.

I am seeing that a lot here, the attempt to control people.

I'm sorry, I thought that was a classic case of something the government should do, didn't know we have ancaps here.

I don't mind stupid people, as long as they confine their stupidity to themselves, but far too many don't, instead they preach it, and preach it with a religious fervor, until they convince others that they are right. Evidence, facts, or knowledge are NOT required, indeed, these are considered anathema, only good for those experts, you know, scientists, doctors, chemists, pharmacists, etc. Facts, knowledge, theories, etc. are only good to lord over the common people with their expertise, their education, their experience, and their scientific studies. Its not like these people spent years in school learning things such as biology, chemistry, physics, and of course, the dreaded maths. Or spent even more time studying the subjects they are interested in, backing up what they learn with additional facts and figures.

We aren't talking about kooks who believe aliens built the pyramids or that bigfoot walks around in Washington state. No, we are talking about faith healers who tell people to throw away their prescriptions. Or those parents whose kid was diagnosed with autism 6 months after their first round of vaccinations, and assumes a causal link, contrary to all evidence, and then tells other parents to NOT vaccinate their kids. But hey, that's fucking harmless, isn't it? Its not like any child ever died during a pertussis outbreak, am I right?

Or what about the alternative medicine industry, which is full of companies taking advantage of people's ignorance to market homeopathy, vitamins, supplements, additives, oils and herbs, etc. Most of which are NOT regulated hardly at all in this country, not even for so much as safety. So you have pills and pills of shit filled with wheat flour or rice flour and not the stuff claimed on their labels, ground glass found in capsules, etc.

Then you have herbal "remedies" that also don't have everything they advertise within them, many of which actually do have a pharmacological effects on the body, but with dosages being unregulated, side effects not advertised, etc. Oh, and then people who buy this unregulated crap then goes on and on about the "evils" of Big Pharma, who, at the very least, have to inform the public of the side effects of their product, not to mention many other regulations.

So fuck me for wanting to find ways to remedy this, some through regulation, a lot through education, and James Randi is doing a fucking service.

stops when you are blocking traffic on the interstate looking up at the sky

you are missing a lot.

"Would you rather look at freeway traffic than the sky? You know you are missing a lot."

The top photo wash taken by French air chief in 1954 over Rouen, France. The bottom pair by a farmer in McMinnville, Oregon in 1950.



http://www.aenigmatis.com/rouen-ufo-1954/fig-1.htm

Then there are the stars...

they told the folks to just toss their meds because they were HEAAAAALED by JEEEEEEESUS and of course they weren't! it's all explained in the excellent documentary about him that is mentioned in the OP. no he does a service by debunking these snake oil salesmen who cause harm or bilk people from their money. I will ALWAYS support those who expose fraud and never understand why people mock or belittle rational thought.