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eridani

(51,907 posts)
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 05:33 AM Dec 2014

Democrats Are Petrified of Defending Government, but They Need to Start

Does it piss you off when Dems cover at the accusation of being "tax and spend liberals"? It just so happens that taxing and spending is the government's fucking JOB. Naturally, red state conservatives want to tax blue states and spend the money on themselves. I think that defending public goods is critical, and you fund public goods with taxation.

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/27324-democrats-are-petrified-of-defending-government-but-they-need-to-start

If you number yourself among my longer-suffering readers, you may know that one of the occasional hobbyhorses I ride for 800 words is my immense frustration that Democrats are terrified of defending government. Oh, some of them do sometimes. But mostly they defend ends, not means. That is: They defend this or that program or policy goal, but they don’t defend the vehicle that provides it, the federal government.

Now you are already sitting at your whetstone, sharpening your knife, ready to instruct me in all the reasons it would be preposterous for the Democrats to do this. I know the reasons already. But they’re wrong. Because look, folks: The Democrats are the party of government. It’s the basic reason a person is a Democrat in the first place—Democrats disagree about loads of things, but the one principle they all subscribe to is a belief that the federal government can and must intervene in the economic and social spheres to even things out. And the rejection of that belief is the basic reason a person is a Republican.

So government is the fundamental dividing line. And yet, for the past 30 years, what kind of debate about this have we had? We’ve had one side relentlessly attacking government as incompetent to evil, and the other side saying nothing, being too cowed to stand up and say that government is, and does, good. Elected officials don’t do it, and even the progressive political professionals don’t do it.

Think of this: Of all the dozens of groups out there that make up what we call the liberal infrastructure, the think thanks and interest-group nonprofits and so on, there is not a single entity whose goal is the defense of government. Given this, it’s perfectly reasonable that such large majorities think the government is awful, because you have the government haters telling them for three decades how awful government is and the government defenders saying nothing.

That is the real importance of Chuck Schumer’s speech last week. The central message has been crowded out to some extent by Schumer’s comments about how the president and the party should have concentrated on middle class economic matters before pursuing health-care reform, which other Democrats have criticized him for (and which he’s said before, incidentally). If all you know about the speech is that, then you might have a negative impression of it. I implore you to watch it, because it’s better than that.

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Democrats Are Petrified of Defending Government, but They Need to Start (Original Post) eridani Dec 2014 OP
"Gov't is not the solution to our problem, Gov't is the problem" CincyDem Dec 2014 #1
Well said. freshwest Dec 2014 #3
That would make a great OP Pacifist Patriot Dec 2014 #16
Where does capitalism end and American socialism begin? aspirant Dec 2014 #31
"large majorities think the government is awful" seveneyes Dec 2014 #2
I just renewed my driver's license eridani Dec 2014 #4
Refreshing to hear seveneyes Dec 2014 #6
Haven't had a problem with the DMV since the 90s. joshcryer Dec 2014 #7
I had a little hiccup with the DMV Sherman A1 Dec 2014 #9
I find services from both local and federal government employees to be .... Scuba Dec 2014 #8
Government service these days is much better than commercial here in CA. bemildred Dec 2014 #12
I deal regularly with both government agencies and humongous corporations. Pacifist Patriot Dec 2014 #17
Corporations ARE bureaucies... Wounded Bear Dec 2014 #26
Yes I know that... Pacifist Patriot Dec 2014 #28
Do you enjoy aspirant Dec 2014 #32
Too many don't want to hear it... freshwest Dec 2014 #5
The problem is we dont frame the wording to throw it in the Republicans face santroy79 Dec 2014 #10
We're also woefully bad at framing things in ways that will emotionally resonate with conservatives. Pacifist Patriot Dec 2014 #23
I read "The Righteous Mind" BlueEye Dec 2014 #24
George Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant?" Pacifist Patriot Dec 2014 #25
Ah yes, that is the one, thank you! BlueEye Dec 2014 #27
It won't do a lot of good to simply defend government, part of the job of the party of government TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #11
Unless they do something about corruption, it's all going to be futile. bemildred Dec 2014 #13
Government ought to be limited in the sense that it should not be a totalitarian force BlueEye Dec 2014 #14
"Ironically said by a Republican." I didn't know that. RiverLover Dec 2014 #15
To be fair, it was said by a Republican in 1863. The respective party platforms... Pacifist Patriot Dec 2014 #22
Distinction aspirant Dec 2014 #33
this "government", this current regime, must be taken down, and a new one built Demeter Dec 2014 #18
The Obama Administration is a regime now? brooklynite Dec 2014 #19
Not just.... BrettsJets Dec 2014 #20
Reagan stupidity rules ... GeorgeGist Dec 2014 #21
I don't think many of our Dem leaders fail to defend government because they fear Baitball Blogger Dec 2014 #29
Good/Bad cop routine aspirant Dec 2014 #34
hey, Dems and Krugmanites always defend war, TPP, policies copied from Gingrich MisterP Dec 2014 #30
Wish I could rec a hundred times. Worth the time to read!! CrispyQ Dec 2014 #35
Taxing and spending is how we fund public goods eridani Dec 2014 #36

CincyDem

(6,281 posts)
1. "Gov't is not the solution to our problem, Gov't is the problem"
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 06:44 AM
Dec 2014


Saint Ronny uttered these words (or something very very close to it) in his first inaugural address. My what a long way we had fallen in 20 years from the day JFK said "Ask not what you're country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".

In the 30+ years since St. R's first inauguration, we have allowed the right, often through their own purposeful actions (and crimes) to destroy the dignity of "governing". So much so that even those who have admirable goals don't want to be seen defending the actual work of governing. Governing is work. Unfortunately, we hire (through our elections) saboteurs intent on not only destroying the future but destroying our capability to get there.

Imagine, in what other job interview could someone be asked "why do you want this job" and answer "because I want to diminish you're company's ability to compete in the marketplace". WHAT ? You want to come work here to screw us up ???

But that's exactly who we hire. People who want to screw everything up. People who have no training, no skills, no talents, and often no experience to prepare them to govern. They might be good doctors, lawyers, accountants or plumbers but there're not prepared to govern. And to some degree, that's true on both sides. The right wants to tear down and the left doesn't really know how to defend the honor of serving in government.



 

seveneyes

(4,631 posts)
2. "large majorities think the government is awful"
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 07:00 AM
Dec 2014

I blame most DMV departments, IRS and other public facing "workers" for the disparagement. Either hire better workers or at least train them that they are there to SERVE the public, not punish them.

Government does need to be as ugly as it appears sometimes.

 

seveneyes

(4,631 posts)
6. Refreshing to hear
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 07:11 AM
Dec 2014

I just got pulled over by a cop recently for speeding and he was kind enough to let me go on my way without even a warning.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
7. Haven't had a problem with the DMV since the 90s.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 07:14 AM
Dec 2014

Everything is electronic these days, in and out, up and down. Super easy to renew, they even have a separate line, they check you, check your vision, have you sign your fingerprint, done.

Donate to the blood / donor list a couple of bucks for the quick service.

Sherman A1

(38,958 posts)
9. I had a little hiccup with the DMV
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 07:49 AM
Dec 2014

early in the year. Got a letter telling me I was being revoked (hadn't had a ticket in 35 years). After visiting the local police department, the local DMV office I was given a number to call at the State Capitol. 45 minutes on hold, but was lucky to get someone who was understanding and could figure out it wasn't my conviction at a town I had never visited. A week later I received a letter correcting the first one.

Apparently a typo by either a court clerk or someone at the DMV had caused the problem, but it was a nerve wracking afternoon on the phone and for the next few days just knowing it was on my record.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
8. I find services from both local and federal government employees to be ....
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 07:29 AM
Dec 2014

... far more efficient and friendly than similar services I receive from corporations. Certainly no government agency has ever treated me or my family the way our insurance company did.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
12. Government service these days is much better than commercial here in CA.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 08:13 AM
Dec 2014

Last edited Wed Dec 17, 2014, 09:33 AM - Edit history (1)

Commercial takes your money and leaves you on the phone for hours if their stuff doesn't do the job.

Pacifist Patriot

(24,647 posts)
17. I deal regularly with both government agencies and humongous corporations.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 08:27 AM
Dec 2014

I actually enjoy my interactions with the bureaucrats and positively dread having to pick up the phone and speak to someone at a corporation. The former know their jobs and easily determine what I need. The latter sound like they've had minimal training and I spend as much time trying to explain what I need as I do in the hold queue.

Pacifist Patriot

(24,647 posts)
28. Yes I know that...
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:03 AM
Dec 2014

I was using the connotation distinction, not the denotation. I'm sure anyone reading my post will still understand what I'm expressing.

 

santroy79

(193 posts)
10. The problem is we dont frame the wording to throw it in the Republicans face
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 07:59 AM
Dec 2014

Obama lowered taxes for middle class and poor but they dont freaking know it.

We have to push that Republicans are raising taxes on middle class because they wont tax the top 10%. So school taxes go up, gas taxes go up, fees for services go up ...etc to cover the short fall of the money government does not get from the wealthy. Schools go without, less police, less firemen ....etc


we do not fight back back!

Pacifist Patriot

(24,647 posts)
23. We're also woefully bad at framing things in ways that will emotionally resonate with conservatives.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 09:02 AM
Dec 2014

I don't know if Jonathan Haidt's work is generally respected, condemned, or unknown around here, but personally I find his work in moral psychology fascinating. His moral foundations theory does provide a compelling hypothesis as to why conservatives and liberals are unable to communicate effectively with one another. As long as Democrats appeal to the moral foundations that have less importance to conservatives than to liberals, they aren't going to sway anyone.

http://www.moralfoundations.org/

BlueEye

(449 posts)
24. I read "The Righteous Mind"
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 09:35 AM
Dec 2014

and yes, I could not agree more. Appealing to values like sanctity and tradition may not excite liberals, but it would be an excellent strategy to appeal to the "middle third" of Americans who don't always grasp the rational appeals of the Democratic party, at least not when they are lambasted with over-the-top hyperbole from Republicans who equate even mundane policy debates with a battle for the nation's soul.

There was a book published a few years ago (the name escapes me at the moment) that was authored by a Democrat with a background in psychology, and his argument was essentially that Democratic rhetoric is too cold and logical sounding for the American people, and that the GOP thrives because of its ability to frame things with urgency. He cited the "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act" as a name that loses people, whereas the Republicans come up with bills like The USA PATRIOT ACT, etc.

Pacifist Patriot

(24,647 posts)
25. George Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant?"
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 09:45 AM
Dec 2014

I used to teach a graduate program in humanist leadership. That book and the Haidt book you mention were required reading for my class.

TheKentuckian

(24,934 posts)
11. It won't do a lot of good to simply defend government, part of the job of the party of government
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 08:04 AM
Dec 2014

is diligence in making sure government serves the people. That requires accountability and transparency not cover ups, secret laws, legalized bribery, and looking the other way for the rich and powerful. It means protecting the rights and liberties of the people not undermining and undoing them.

It means truly internalizing that any power a servant of the people is borrowed from the governed in stewardship not and ends unto it's self.

Government is not the problem nor necessarily the solution it is a tool that can be used for great good and towering achievements beyond the reach of individuals but it can also he a tool of heinous evil, cruel abuse, and slavery.

Like all tools in the hands of humankind it depends on the use and who is using it and to what ends.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
13. Unless they do something about corruption, it's all going to be futile.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 08:14 AM
Dec 2014

A government that can be bought, will be bought.

BlueEye

(449 posts)
14. Government ought to be limited in the sense that it should not be a totalitarian force
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 08:15 AM
Dec 2014

in our lives. That's what the founders were talking about whenever they mentioned "limited government" in their writing, since things like torturing political dissenters was quite common in most of Europe at the time.

But how Today's conservatives got the idea that "government is bad" from the ideals of liberty set forth in the Constitution, I will not understand. Our government was formed to serve its people in a manner the people demand (the people being white males at the time, but it's more inclusive today).

When progressives attack the government today, it should be to denounce the government's actions that aren't in the best interests of the people, like endless war, bank deregulation, etc. But should we defend taxation and spending to help folks out and make things more equitable? Hell yes we should, loud and proud.

"Government of the people, by the people, for the people shall, not perish from the Earth."

Ironically said by a Republican.

Pacifist Patriot

(24,647 posts)
22. To be fair, it was said by a Republican in 1863. The respective party platforms...
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 08:57 AM
Dec 2014

at the time do not align with their policies and values today. Members of both parties who could time travel would likely gravitate to the other side.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
18. this "government", this current regime, must be taken down, and a new one built
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 08:28 AM
Dec 2014

using the gifts our Founders gave us, and the hard-won experience of the past 250 years, to form a nation "conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men AND WOMEN are created equal"..."ENTITLED TO LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS".

BrettsJets

(11 posts)
20. Not just....
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 08:41 AM
Dec 2014

Defending Gov, but defending anything. Dems let Republicans run & control pretty much any/every message they want. Likely because they are both in cahoots for the most part, and the majority of members in each party all support the same special interests. Oh, and they support themselves.

Baitball Blogger

(46,570 posts)
29. I don't think many of our Dem leaders fail to defend government because they fear
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:04 PM
Dec 2014

criticism. I think they (coporate dems) do it because they found a convenient way to do business by skirting the same rules of regulations that are inconvenient to Republicans.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
30. hey, Dems and Krugmanites always defend war, TPP, policies copied from Gingrich
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 03:13 PM
Dec 2014

remember, without Dem votes the USPS wouldn't be saddled with that 75-year retirement-funding mandate

CrispyQ

(36,221 posts)
35. Wish I could rec a hundred times. Worth the time to read!!
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 04:09 PM
Dec 2014
...someone should make damn well sure that the people of Ocala, Florida, and St. Joseph, Missouri, and Sioux Falls, Iowa, know about every dollar. This hatred of government we see in this country is sickeningly childish and hypocritical. The rot starts from the top—the appalling Republican members of Congress who voted against the 2009 stimulus and then had the audacity to go cut ribbons in their districts at venues given life because of that very stimulus bill they traduced as Satan’s handiwork.

But it extends down to the millions of people who accept and applaud the right-wing rhetoric even as they suck on the government tit every day of their lives in one way or another, either without knowing it or (worse) knowing it but denying that they do because they’ve stuffed their own heads full of some nonsense narrative about how tough and independent they are.

This is the fight. Government’s role in people’s lives. It’s a fight Democrats have been, for pretty much my whole adult lifetime, utterly petrified at the thought of having to take on. But they will never be the consensus-majority party again, as they were when I was born and when Chuck Schumer was a youngster, until they do take on this fight again, and win it.


I have friends who fall under the 'tough & independent' clause.

Dems should have countered the tax & spend with, "Would you rather have a tax & spend democrat or a cut & spend republican," but no, they have not thought to hire someone like George Lakoff to frame the issues in our favor & to counter Frank Luntz. Or perhaps they have thought of it but they don't want to back up populist campaigns with real policy.

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