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boston bean

(36,186 posts)
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 09:26 AM Dec 2014

You know what puzzles me...

women being murdered in middle eastern countries by their husbands in honor killings shock the conscience of most.

Yet here in the US, women are murdered daily by their husbands/boyfriends. Every day 3 women are murdered by their significant other. Yet, domestic violence ending in the death of wives or girlfriends here in the US just doesn't shock people.

Is it because a gun is usually used, and not stoning or beheading?

The US holds no moral high ground on this issue. It's all about control of women.

It should shock our conscience, every murder of this type should be major news, it should be shown around the world what a sick cultural problem we have affecting women in this culture.

Is it too much to ask?

92 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
You know what puzzles me... (Original Post) boston bean Dec 2014 OP
the very quiet elephant marions ghost Dec 2014 #1
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2014 #2
Because there are very specific cultural issues that play into boston bean Dec 2014 #3
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2014 #6
Look back at all the "name auto removed" on this thread! nt alp227 Dec 2014 #61
You are wrong and... tkmorris Dec 2014 #4
Mysogynist gun troll go bye-bye. nt onehandle Dec 2014 #11
That video is hilarious! nt cwydro Dec 2014 #70
Because it points to deeper sickness within the culture el_bryanto Dec 2014 #5
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2014 #10
Religion is the difference Renew Deal Dec 2014 #7
There is a common mindset, within the men boston bean Dec 2014 #12
People get outraged because it is either not a crime or accepted in other places. Renew Deal Dec 2014 #14
But the underlying causes of it are the same. boston bean Dec 2014 #17
Your premise is that it doesn't shock people Renew Deal Dec 2014 #22
Actually, chervilant Dec 2014 #24
No, people like me are outraged because lexington filly Dec 2014 #76
It is a "crime" throughout the entire Western World whathehell Dec 2014 #90
Again, it's extremely rare for PARENTS to Kill their Daughters over "honor" whathehell Dec 2014 #26
Fathers having sexual relations with their daughters are far more common than admitted Stargazer99 Dec 2014 #43
That happens worldwide also, and HIDEOUS as it is, it's neither ACCEPTEd or Proscribed whathehell Dec 2014 #49
Religion is frequently used by abusers to chervilant Dec 2014 #23
+1 .. n/t obnoxiousdrunk Dec 2014 #27
I think the problem is that in that part of the world - the motives and rationale are very clearly el_bryanto Dec 2014 #8
Those holding a gun have more rights in the U.S. than women. onehandle Dec 2014 #9
How so? Renew Deal Dec 2014 #16
Mabye, but women can own guns too.. whathehell Dec 2014 #59
It should be pointed out that when a man kills a domestic partner or wife, truedelphi Dec 2014 #68
I wasn't aware of a sentence discrepancy.. whathehell Dec 2014 #69
I just asked a lady researcher for a link. truedelphi Dec 2014 #72
I really do hope whathehell Dec 2014 #84
What the hell - truedelphi Dec 2014 #87
Thank you, Trudelphi whathehell Dec 2014 #89
And coincidentally, here is a discussion about the problems women face truedelphi Dec 2014 #81
Thanks for some much needed perspective. We treat women badly here in the US. We need to clean.... marble falls Dec 2014 #13
Men treat women "badly", but parents RARELY kill their own daughters over "Honor" whathehell Dec 2014 #28
No we kick them out of their homes. We treat children badly in this country...... marble falls Dec 2014 #34
"how bad we maim, murder, ignore children in this country." Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #42
I accept your grammar comment in the spirit in which it was shared. We murder an awful lot of ...... marble falls Dec 2014 #67
+100. nt whathehell Dec 2014 #91
Again, sadly done all over and simply NOT Equivalent to "Honor Murder" whathehell Dec 2014 #54
it mercuryblues Dec 2014 #15
not too much to ask at all heaven05 Dec 2014 #18
I am so sorry! boston bean Dec 2014 #19
i am so sorry, heaven noiretextatique Dec 2014 #62
It will be interesting if men will ever stop talking about these murders as individuals gone crazy KitSileya Dec 2014 #20
Not being able to handle a breakup... shedevil69taz Dec 2014 #29
Look at the numbers. KitSileya Dec 2014 #35
+1000 heaven05 Dec 2014 #63
Not too much to ask.. no, not at all. mountain grammy Dec 2014 #21
Please..Spouses kill each other everywhere. Killing Daughters & Sisters for "honor" whathehell Dec 2014 #25
What do you know about Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto CJCRANE Dec 2014 #44
Please -- If there is a high incidence of parents killing their children and brothers killing whathehell Dec 2014 #46
Our media is restricted and monolithic. CJCRANE Dec 2014 #51
The U.S may "hold no moral high ground", but Western Values do, in that they do NOT whathehell Dec 2014 #30
actually, many times, men do murder their children before or after they've boston bean Dec 2014 #31
Not as a matter of a "code", religious or cultural..It's not a pattern and it's NOT accepted, whathehell Dec 2014 #58
Then as a matter of what precisely? LanternWaste Dec 2014 #88
What the hell is wrong with you? Maedhros Dec 2014 #52
What the hell is wrong with You? whathehell Dec 2014 #57
Because in those cultures edhopper Dec 2014 #32
Let's move past the point that it is not legal to murder your wife here in the US. boston bean Dec 2014 #33
I don't think it is accepted at all edhopper Dec 2014 #37
Do you see the outrage all over the news boston bean Dec 2014 #38
I agree with it being edhopper Dec 2014 #39
I was specifically speaking to husbands murdering their wives. boston bean Dec 2014 #47
When has a woman been murdered in the US in an episode of domestic violence Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #45
It is not looked down upon as a sickness in this country. boston bean Dec 2014 #48
"It is taken as individual acts, not as a cultural issue." Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #64
Thanks for pointing out the obvious. whathehell Dec 2014 #92
k&r nt raccoon Dec 2014 #36
A couple other considerations: women here may also kill themselves in higher KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #40
What first comes to mind is honor killings are permitted, if not expected Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #41
It's because one is a crime and the other treated as socially acceptable-- even expected. Marr Dec 2014 #50
of course it is too much to ask! you are acting like women matter, or something. niyad Dec 2014 #53
It does outrage us. But they are different. enki23 Dec 2014 #55
Easier to point fingers ismnotwasm Dec 2014 #56
False equivalence Android3.14 Dec 2014 #60
Yup. Agschmid Dec 2014 #74
"The US holds no moral high ground on this issue. It's all about control of women." Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2014 #65
America cannot smell it's own shit. Jamastiene Dec 2014 #66
They are different circumstances LittleBlue Dec 2014 #71
K&R valerief Dec 2014 #73
K&R Solly Mack Dec 2014 #75
So called "Honor killers" are often not punished, even though their crimes are known ConservativeDemocrat Dec 2014 #77
The difference is that no one here excuses these murders as "honor killings." pnwmom Dec 2014 #78
This message was self-deleted by its author WhiteAndNerdy Dec 2014 #79
What? Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2014 #82
I don't know what was unclear about my post. WhiteAndNerdy Dec 2014 #83
What? n/t JTFrog Dec 2014 #85
Huge K & R lovemydog Dec 2014 #80
Oh, another one of THESE threads librechik Dec 2014 #86

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
1. the very quiet elephant
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 09:34 AM
Dec 2014

in the room. The lack of acknowledgment of the daily death toll carried out by the killer you know. Add in the numbers of women who are killed by strangers and it easily adds up to the acceptance of honor killings in the middle east.

Not nearly enough done.

Response to boston bean (Original post)

boston bean

(36,186 posts)
3. Because there are very specific cultural issues that play into
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 09:59 AM
Dec 2014

the types of crimes.

And a thread about it specifically, is worthy and should be discussed, without derailment.

Response to boston bean (Reply #3)

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
5. Because it points to deeper sickness within the culture
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:02 AM
Dec 2014

Particularly when we are lecturing another part of the world for what they are doing. They are doing openly (killing woman because they are the property of men) what is happening all to often here in this country as well. While there will continue to be murders if we stop seeing women as the property of men, surely abandoning that sick concept can only be a positive.

Bryant

Response to el_bryanto (Reply #5)

Renew Deal

(81,801 posts)
7. Religion is the difference
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:05 AM
Dec 2014

Religion is usually the justification for the murder in these other places. Often there is no separation between religion and government, so the murder is "legal" or accepted.

Murder is completely illegal in the US. That is not always the case in other societies. The problem really is them and not the US in this case.

boston bean

(36,186 posts)
12. There is a common mindset, within the men
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:18 AM
Dec 2014

who commit these crimes?

It is about control, no?

Are you meaning that just because it is illegal here in the US that a problem does not exist?

Renew Deal

(81,801 posts)
14. People get outraged because it is either not a crime or accepted in other places.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:23 AM
Dec 2014

In the US it is a crime. The government doesn't ignore/justify these crimes. So in the US people see it as part of the days news. In other places people see that there is no justice. The governments or societies are in on the crime.

boston bean

(36,186 posts)
17. But the underlying causes of it are the same.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:30 AM
Dec 2014

Even though it is against the law, there are 3 women murdered a day because the men in their lives want to have the ultimate control.

How do you explain that?

I'm not just talking about how people react to it, although it is part of it (a big part), but the culture... in which men commit these acts, even in the face of criminal justice system.

It starts with society examining these issues, it's not a matter of it just being against the law.

I see the reason for your confusion, but possibly open your mind a bit to see a deeper meaning.

Renew Deal

(81,801 posts)
22. Your premise is that it doesn't shock people
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 11:35 AM
Dec 2014

"Yet, domestic violence ending in the death of wives or girlfriends here in the US just doesn't shock people."

I explaned why. (Religious, cultural, legal differences). Now you want me to explain why the crimes take place? And I think it does shock people when it involves people they know.


chervilant

(8,267 posts)
24. Actually,
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 11:48 AM
Dec 2014

this is a macro-level observation, that "domestic violence ending in the death of wives or girlfriends here in the US just doesn't shock people." Relationship violence seldom makes the news, and intervention groups are quietly funded (underfunded) and expected to "solve" the problem.

I've been an advocate for survivors of relationship violence for more than thirty years. I can assure you that a fairly consistent percentage of relationships are marred by violence, and the perps are almost always males. Survivors have more resources available, but it is still common for family and friends to deny or minimize the violence, or to convey such messages as "you've made your bed, now you have to lay in it," or "I can't believe John would do such a thing!"

Even your posts are indicative of the type of defensiveness that relegates relationship violence to that "elephant under our collective living room rugs."

I hope you will 'hear' what BostonBean adjured herein above, and open your mind to the reality of systemic violence against women and children right here in the good ol' US of A.

lexington filly

(239 posts)
76. No, people like me are outraged because
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 02:16 AM
Dec 2014

women die. Are murdered. Lose their lives. To us, so what if it's termed a crime? Our focus is on stopping women and their children from being killed or harmed. The point of the original post as I read it, is that Americans are horrified at stonings and not the fact that a woman is considered property and the society enables men to kill them like our society enables these crimes and the culture of the particular mind-set that females "belong" to males or are to be dominated by males. Some ways these domestic crimes are enabled are: by being so blasé as to not enact laws with teeth to protect women from domestic abuse before they're murdered and special gun restrictions as well as provide significantly more resources for women and their families in these environments as well as public education. For starters, off the top of my head...

whathehell

(28,969 posts)
90. It is a "crime" throughout the entire Western World
Sat Dec 20, 2014, 11:20 AM
Dec 2014

and virtually every other part of the planet -- It's called Murder.

whathehell

(28,969 posts)
26. Again, it's extremely rare for PARENTS to Kill their Daughters over "honor"
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:06 PM
Dec 2014

in places and cultures outside the Muslim World -- That's where your attempted "equivalence"

ends, I'm afraid.

Stargazer99

(2,538 posts)
43. Fathers having sexual relations with their daughters are far more common than admitted
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:24 PM
Dec 2014

here in the US. That is another form of killing, only you kill the spirit of the child. No they may not do "honor" killings, but they kill in the US none the less.
You can kill the body but also the spirit..something a person who has gone through this understands without descriptive words.

whathehell

(28,969 posts)
49. That happens worldwide also, and HIDEOUS as it is, it's neither ACCEPTEd or Proscribed
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:01 PM
Dec 2014

like outright MURDER of your daughters or sisters based on some

sick "code of honor"...But please -- Keep Reaching.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
8. I think the problem is that in that part of the world - the motives and rationale are very clearly
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:05 AM
Dec 2014

expressed. In the United States, the motives and rationale (i.e. women are property of men) is sometimes expressed, but oftentimes it's not. A man standing up and saying "Look I am allowed to kill my wife/girlfriend because she is my property," would be mocked and attacked. That doesn't mean there aren't people who feel that way - there clearly are. They just, for the most part, aren't going to say it is clearly as someone in the middle east might.

That gives us coverage to look the other way and pretend that it is about another issues.

Bryant

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
9. Those holding a gun have more rights in the U.S. than women.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:07 AM
Dec 2014

This is not conjecture. This is fact.

Those holding, manufacturing, or selling a gun, have 'fewer' reasons to be questioned, period.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
68. It should be pointed out that when a man kills a domestic partner or wife,
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:43 PM
Dec 2014

he often gets six years.

When a woman - even a woman whose history has been one of dometic violence - kills her partner or spouse, she will get at least 25 years.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
72. I just asked a lady researcher for a link.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 12:16 AM
Dec 2014

It is a bit hard to sort out using google, as there doesn't seem to be any way of getting a fix only on spousal/partner murder, with gender specific sentencing discrepancies.

I imagine she will get back to me by tomorrow.

whathehell

(28,969 posts)
84. I really do hope
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 09:38 AM
Dec 2014

you're not being snarky with the "lady researcher" thing..I'm a female, & anyone who knows me

knows I'm one of the strongest feminists on this board...I honestly didn't know about the

sentence discrepancy.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
87. What the hell -
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 05:33 PM
Dec 2014

No snark intended.

Really and truly no snark. I mentioned it was a lady researcher, as those are the people I go to these days for such stats. There are now numerous men's group' bulletin boards, where there are statistics offered, but often the amount of vitriol like "Not just her -- All Bitches should be killed" kind of thing makes it hard to go to those sites.

If you know me at all, I have been on this board a long time, and most days I do try to be polite. The only people I am known to jump on are those I consider to be trolls, and I don't judge 99.8% of the folks here. (I do have three DU'ers on ignore. But that is it.)

I still feel bad that I sort of jumped on a fellow DU'er who goes to a big box store I think we all should avoid. Happened a year ago, maybe? Still feel bad about it.

whathehell

(28,969 posts)
89. Thank you, Trudelphi
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 05:55 PM
Dec 2014

I. believe you and appreciate your response...I kind of thought I might be wrong, as I don't remember

ever "locking horns" with you before, so to speak. I was probably being over sensitive due to a recent exchange

on another thread in which I was misinterpreted in a major way.

You sound like a very nice person and I'm sorry for sounding so defensive -- Thank you for the link, by the way,

I will definitely be checking it out.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
81. And coincidentally, here is a discussion about the problems women face
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 06:20 AM
Dec 2014

When they atempt to protect their children from men who are abusive and violent, a discussion going on right now over at DailyKos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/21/1315473/-When-Are-Police-Allowed-to-Do-Nothing-After-a-Child-is-Abducted

marble falls

(56,358 posts)
13. Thanks for some much needed perspective. We treat women badly here in the US. We need to clean....
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:18 AM
Dec 2014

our own house before we get too preachy about anyone else.

whathehell

(28,969 posts)
28. Men treat women "badly", but parents RARELY kill their own daughters over "Honor"
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:13 PM
Dec 2014

I'm afraid, and that's where this transparent "reach" for PC Equivalence

fails completely.

marble falls

(56,358 posts)
34. No we kick them out of their homes. We treat children badly in this country......
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:37 PM
Dec 2014

Do you have and statistics on how many "honor" killings there is anywhere on the planet?

Because there are plenty facts about how bad we maim, murder, ignore children in this country.

Child abuse
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Child Maltreatment" redirects here. For the journal, see Child Maltreatment (journal).
Family law



Child abuse is the physical, sexual or emotional maltreatment or neglect of a child or children.[1] In the United States, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Department for Children and Families (DCF) define child maltreatment as any act or series of acts of commission or omission by a parent or other caregiver that results in harm, potential for harm, or threat of harm to a child.[2] Child abuse can occur in a child's home, or in the organizations, schools or communities the child interacts with. There are four major categories of child abuse: neglect, physical abuse, psychological or emotional abuse, and sexual abuse.

In Western countries, preventing child abuse is considered a high priority, and detailed laws and policies exist to address this issue. Different jurisdictions have developed their own definitions of what constitutes child abuse for the purposes of removing a child from his/her family and/or prosecuting a criminal charge. According to the Journal of Child Abuse and Neglect, child abuse is "any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation, an act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm".[3]

Douglas J. Besharov, the first Director of the U.S. Center on Child Abuse and Neglect, states "the existing laws are often vague and overly broad"[4] and there is a "lack of consensus among professionals and Child Protective Services (CPS) personnel about what the terms abuse and neglect mean".[5] Susan Orr, former head of the United States Children's Bureau U.S. Department of Health and Services Administration for Children and Families, 2001–2007, states that "much that is now defined as child abuse and neglect does not merit governmental interference".[6]



Types

Child abuse can take several forms:[7] the four main types are physical, sexual, psychological, and neglect.[8] According to the 2010 Child Maltreatment Report (NCANDS), a yearly Federal report based on submission by state Child Protective Services (CPS) Agencies in the U.S., "as in prior years, neglect was the most common form of maltreatment." The cases were substantiated as follows: neglect 78.3%, physical abuse 17.6%, sexual abuse 9.2%, and psychological maltreatment 8.1%.,[9] According to Richard Wexler, the Director of the U.S. National Coalition of Child Protection Reform, of "those labeled "substantiated" or "indicated" by protective workers, relatively few are the kind that leap to mind when we hear the words "child abuse". By far the largest category was "neglect". Often, these are cases in which the primary problem is family poverty."[10]
Physical abuse

Physical abuse involves physical aggression directed at a child by an adult. Most nations with child-abuse laws consider the deliberate infliction of serious injuries, or actions that place the child at obvious risk of serious injury or death, to be illegal. Bruises, scratches, burns, broken bones, lacerations, as well as repeated "mishaps," and rough treatment that could cause physical injury, can be physical abuse.[11] Multiple injuries or fractures at different stages of healing can raise suspicion of abuse. Physical abuse can come in many forms, although the distinction between child discipline and abuse is often poorly defined. However, the Human Rights Committee of the United Nations has stated that the prohibition of degrading treatment or punishment extends to corporal punishment of children.[12] Since 1979, 34 countries around the world (at 2013) have outlawed domestic corporal punishment of children.[13] In Europe, 22 countries have banned the practice. Cultural norms about what constitutes abuse vary widely: among professionals as well as the wider public, people do not agree on what behaviors constitute abuse.[14] Some professionals claim that cultural norms that sanction physical punishment are one of the causes of child abuse, and have undertaken campaigns to redefine such norms.[15][16][17] Psychologist Alice Miller, noted for her books on child abuse, took the view that humiliations, spankings and beatings, slaps in the face, etc. are all forms of abuse, because they injure the integrity and dignity of a child, even if their consequences are not visible right away.[18]
Sexual abuse
Main articles: Child sexual abuse and child-on-child sexual abuse

Child sexual abuse (CSA) is a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent abuses a child for sexual stimulation.[19] Sexual abuse refers to the participation of a child in a sexual act aimed toward the physical gratification or the financial profit of the person committing the act.[11][20] Forms of CSA include asking or pressuring a child to engage in sexual activities (regardless of the outcome), indecent exposure of the genitals to a child, displaying pornography to a child, actual sexual contact with a child, physical contact with the child's genitals, viewing of the child's genitalia without physical contact, or using a child to produce child pornography.[19][21][22] Selling the sexual services of children may be viewed and treated as child abuse with services offered to the child rather than simple incarceration.[23]

Effects of child sexual abuse on the victim(s) include guilt and self-blame, flashbacks, nightmares, insomnia, fear of things associated with the abuse (including objects, smells, places, doctor's visits, etc.), self-esteem issues, sexual dysfunction, chronic pain, addiction, self-injury, suicidal ideation, somatic complaints, depression,[24] post-traumatic stress disorder,[25] anxiety,[26] other mental illnesses including borderline personality disorder[27] and dissociative identity disorder,[27] propensity to re-victimization in adulthood,[28] bulimia nervosa,[29] and physical injury to the child, among other problems.[30]

In the United States, approximately 15% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children.[31][32][33][34][35] Most sexual abuse offenders are acquainted with their victims; approximately 30% are relatives of the child, most often brothers, fathers, mothers, uncles or cousins; around 60% are other acquaintances such as friends of the family, babysitters, or neighbours; strangers are the offenders in approximately 10% of child sexual abuse cases.[31] In over one-third of cases, the perpetrator is also a minor.[36]

In 1999 the BBC reported on the RAHI Foundation's survey of sexual abuse in India, in which 76% of respondents said they had been abused as children, 40% of those stating the purpetrator was a family member.[37]
Psychological/emotional abuse
Main article: Emotional abuse

Emotional abuse is defined as the production of psychological and social defects in the growth of a child as a result of behavior such as loud yelling, coarse and rude attitude, inattention, harsh criticism, and denigration of the child's personality.[11] Other examples include name-calling, ridicule, degradation, destruction of personal belongings, torture or killing of a pet, excessive criticism, inappropriate or excessive demands, withholding communication, and routine labeling or humiliation.[38]

Victims of emotional abuse may react by distancing themselves from the abuser, internalizing the abusive words, or fighting back by insulting the abuser. Emotional abuse can result in abnormal or disrupted attachment development, a tendency for victims to blame themselves (self-blame) for the abuse, learned helplessness, and overly passive behavior.[38]
Neglect
Main article: Child neglect

Child neglect is the failure of a parent or other person with responsibility for the child to provide needed food, clothing, shelter, medical care, or supervision to the degree that the child's health, safety, and well-being are threatened with harm. Neglect is also a lack of attention from the people surrounding a child, and the non-provision of the relevant and adequate necessities for the child's survival, which would be a lacking in attention, love, and nurture.[11] Some of the observable signs in a neglected child include: the child is frequently absent from school, begs or steals food or money, lacks needed medical and dental care, is consistently dirty, or lacks sufficient clothing for the weather.[39]

Neglected children may experience delays in physical and psychosocial development, possibly resulting in psychopathology and impaired neuropsychological functions including executive function, attention, processing speed, language, memory and social skills.[40] Researchers investigating maltreated children have repeatedly found that neglected children in foster and adoptive populations manifest different emotional and behavioral reactions to regain lost or secure relationships and are frequently reported to have disorganized attachments and a need to control their environment. Such children are not likely to view caregivers as being a source of safety, and instead typically show an increase in aggressive and hyperactive behaviors which may disrupt healthy or secure attachment with their adopted parents. These children have apparently learned to adapt to an abusive and inconsistent caregiver by becoming cautiously self-reliant, and are often described as glib, manipulative and disingenuous in their interactions with others as they move through childhood.[41] Children who are victims of neglect have a more difficult time forming and maintaining relationships, such as romantic or friendship, later in life due to the lack of attachment they had in their earlier stages of life.



We need to clean our own house first.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
42. "how bad we maim, murder, ignore children in this country."
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:20 PM
Dec 2014

You're comparing being ignored to the violence of maiming and murdering? I'll wager those being maimed and murdered wish they would be ignored by their attackers.

I'm also not seeing the connection between child abuse and the honor killing of adult women.

marble falls

(56,358 posts)
67. I accept your grammar comment in the spirit in which it was shared. We murder an awful lot of ......
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 09:23 PM
Dec 2014

children in this country for us as a nation to get too righteous about how any other country or cultural group treats children.

whathehell

(28,969 posts)
54. Again, sadly done all over and simply NOT Equivalent to "Honor Murder"
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:19 PM
Dec 2014

and you know it.

The bending over backward for some sort of completely dishonest "equivalence"

in the name of Political Correctness is just SO sad.


Perhaps you'll convince the few "PC at any Cost" fans here, but these pathetic

attempts are just that. That being said, I'm sure you'll keep trying.

mercuryblues

(14,491 posts)
15. it
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:24 AM
Dec 2014

disgusts me that many will gladly blame the victim. Why didn't she leave sooner, why was she out that late at night etc.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
18. not too much to ask at all
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:46 AM
Dec 2014

I lost a sister to a crazed individual she loved.....murder/suicide.....no, not too much to ask at all...

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
62. i am so sorry, heaven
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 04:18 PM
Dec 2014

both of my sisters were in abusive relationships that could have ended the same way. i am so sorry for your loss

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
20. It will be interesting if men will ever stop talking about these murders as individuals gone crazy
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 11:04 AM
Dec 2014

As isolated events, and start discussing it as something that shows that the way men are raised in this culture has some fundamental flaws, and these flaws make men more likely to be unable to handle break-ups, and more likely to give them a sense of ownership over women. I refuse to believe that this is something innate in men, that it is biological and can't be changed, because I think better of men than that. Unfortunately, many men don't think that their gender is better than that, and that makes it less likely that they will start the hard work it will be to change culture so that these men are more likely to have the mental equipment they need to handle relationships and break-ups better.

shedevil69taz

(512 posts)
29. Not being able to handle a breakup...
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:14 PM
Dec 2014

is not the sole domain of men...there is a women in jail where I am stationed right now on attempted murder because she firebombed the car of a Soldier of mine because he broke up with her...when he was sitting in it.

So could it be some underlying social issue in the way some people are raised? It sure could be.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
35. Look at the numbers.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:47 PM
Dec 2014

I didn't talk in absolutes. I said less likely. That doesn't mean that if we succeed, no man will ever kill a woman for jilting him, nor does it mean that no woman today kills over a break-up. Of course it isn't the sole domain of men, but it is nearly the sole domain. Why? And what are we, and more specifically, what are men going to do about it?

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
63. +1000
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 04:29 PM
Dec 2014

some are crazy though, hidden until 'ownership' is claimed and then all hell breaks loose...yes I do agree most of the problem is the culture and how it tells men to be when what they are told is all wrong. Many men are hard at work to change that aspect of masculinity and loss.

whathehell

(28,969 posts)
25. Please..Spouses kill each other everywhere. Killing Daughters & Sisters for "honor"
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:00 PM
Dec 2014

is Rare to Non-Existent outside of Muslim countries and cultures.

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
44. What do you know about Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:24 PM
Dec 2014

Latin American, Eastern European, African etc. cultures and how they treat women?

Another example of the urge to make one group unique, when it isn't. That tactic worked in the early to mid 20th and caused a lot of conflict.

What's more, macho and patriarcha culture is a big problem in many parts of the world.

However, let's just own up to our problems instead of pointing the finger elsewhere all the time.

whathehell

(28,969 posts)
46. Please -- If there is a high incidence of parents killing their children and brothers killing
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:52 PM
Dec 2014

their sisters of a quasi-religious "Honor code", I'm all ears.

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
51. Our media is restricted and monolithic.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:13 PM
Dec 2014

There are 7 billion people in the world. Our media only focuses on a tiny fraction.

However, I'm not here to prove that one group is worse than another. What do I gain from proving that China is worse or India or the Caribbean or Africa etc. is worse in its treatment of women?

My point is don't let your prejudices blind you.

30 years ago fundamentalist Islam didn't exist as a mass movement. We created them to fight Communism.

Remember Communism, that urgent evil threat that we spent decades fighting and killing people all over the world to defeat? (And suffering thousands of casualties on our own side).

Don't be caught in the amnesia of the moment.

whathehell

(28,969 posts)
30. The U.S may "hold no moral high ground", but Western Values do, in that they do NOT
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:16 PM
Dec 2014

allow, let alone "proscribe" murdering your own children in the name of "honor"...Please get real.

boston bean

(36,186 posts)
31. actually, many times, men do murder their children before or after they've
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:18 PM
Dec 2014

blown out the brains of their wives.


whathehell

(28,969 posts)
58. Not as a matter of a "code", religious or cultural..It's not a pattern and it's NOT accepted,
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 03:03 PM
Dec 2014

much less proscribed and CONDONED as it is in so many muslim cultures.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
88. Then as a matter of what precisely?
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 05:38 PM
Dec 2014

"Not as a matter of a "code", religious or cultural..."

Then as a matter of what precisely?

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
52. What the hell is wrong with you?
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:15 PM
Dec 2014

This OP is about bringing attention to a very serious issue in America, and you feel the need to chide the poster for expressing concern?

Your ideas are worthless.

/ignore.

whathehell

(28,969 posts)
57. What the hell is wrong with You?
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:56 PM
Dec 2014

I have NO problem with bringing attention to a "very serious problem in America" -- and the world, for that matter -- I'm a feminist myself and take that issue quite seriously.

What I DO have a problem with is the OP's USING that situation to make
dishonest, tortured analogies to the UNIQUE, culture-specific ugliness
of "Honor Killings", in the interests, it seems, of minimizing the instances of it
for ridiculous "pc" reasons.

This "code of Honor" is especially shocking in that it actually proscribes
parents and/or male relatives MURDERING their own female family members, often
for something as minor and inconsequential as "flirting", for instance.

It has NO parallel in Western cultures, or, AFAIK, non-Islamic cultures.

Yes, there are still "dowry murders" in India, I understand, and that is disgustingly
"unique" as well, but even that isn't QUITE as contrary to the basic human
instinct to protect, rather than kill, your own progeny, especially for something
as minor as the things these girls are killed for.


edhopper

(33,204 posts)
32. Because in those cultures
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:20 PM
Dec 2014

it is accepted and even approved of by the larger society,

Here ts is condemned and though it happens way too much, the men are not excused and usually punished.

That is a distinct difference.

boston bean

(36,186 posts)
33. Let's move past the point that it is not legal to murder your wife here in the US.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:34 PM
Dec 2014

Why, still, are so many women murdered by their husband or boyfriend here in the US.

I don't think the reason society doesn't pay much attention to it, is because it isn't legal.

I think that many people think this is just a part of life and it is accepted that it will happen. It is a cultural issue.

edhopper

(33,204 posts)
37. I don't think it is accepted at all
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:00 PM
Dec 2014

I don't think murder is accepted in our society (except by police).

Do you have examples of the murder of women here that is looked at as the right thing to do, that the man acted in the proper way. Because that is what happens in those cultures.

There are people who say we can't do anything about it (usually to stop gun laws) but that is more about throwing their hands in the air, than thinking it is okay.

But there is a larger issue of why there is so much violent crime, and this is part of it.


Don't get me wrong the issue about the treatment of women in this country is a major issue. You are right about that.

I just think it is different than how other cultures view honor killings.

boston bean

(36,186 posts)
38. Do you see the outrage all over the news
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:01 PM
Dec 2014

about 3 women who probably yesterday were murdered by their husband/boyfriend.

No, it's common news and very rarely reported on. It's accepted that it happens. It's the same old story, different day.

Did you read my OP?

edhopper

(33,204 posts)
39. I agree with it being
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:05 PM
Dec 2014

a serious issue.

i just think it is a different issue than honor killings.

I don't want to sound like i am criticizing how important you say it is.

boston bean

(36,186 posts)
47. I was specifically speaking to husbands murdering their wives.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:52 PM
Dec 2014

Maybe should have been much more clear to avoid these types of derailments.

Because the motivation is the same.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
45. When has a woman been murdered in the US in an episode of domestic violence
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:26 PM
Dec 2014

and it NOT been reported, let alone reported with a sense of outrage that would accompany -- say -- the report of a store owner murdered during the commission of a robbery?

Hell, Ray Rice didn't even murder his fiancé and the public outrage directed at the DA and the NFL was something to behold.

The US has domestic abuse shelters and other programs to help victims escape and rebuild their lives. Yes, it happens but as a society we find it morally repugnant. We find many things morally repugnant, yet they still occur. That is the perpetrator making their choice in spite of the law, morality and social norm. Their personal failing is not a collective crime.

boston bean

(36,186 posts)
48. It is not looked down upon as a sickness in this country.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:54 PM
Dec 2014

It is taken as individual acts, not as a cultural issue.

Whereas, in the ME we have no problem identifying it as a cultural problem.

The motivation of the singular acts are on in the same for both geographies. To control women.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
64. "It is taken as individual acts, not as a cultural issue."
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 04:46 PM
Dec 2014

If society criminalizes, prosecutes and punishes abusers as well as provide resources to victims and decries unpunished acts by what measure do we call this a "cultural" failing?


The motivation of the singular acts are on in the same for both geographies. To control women.

Okay, but that is not a cultural issue if one culture condemns and formally punishes.
 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
40. A couple other considerations: women here may also kill themselves in higher
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:09 PM
Dec 2014

numbers than would otherwise be the case in order to escape situations of domestic abuse. While these suicides are not technically speaking cases of spousal homicide, they also should receive attention. And, almost as important, a woman is beaten in this country every 9 seconds by a male partner. That climate of societally accepted misogyny is a context within which femicide takes place.

As a man, I'm not entirely sure what the remedy(s) is\are -- short of a full-on democratic socialist revolution, how does one go about overthrowing a cultural climate where misogyny is accepted and even valorized? -- but I agree with you that it is a sign of a deep pathology in American culture.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
41. What first comes to mind is honor killings are permitted, if not expected
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 01:11 PM
Dec 2014

whereas here it is a crime, and in many instances a capital crime.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
50. It's because one is a crime and the other treated as socially acceptable-- even expected.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:05 PM
Dec 2014

I don't think you can reasonably say that people "aren't shocked" by these murders here in the west. We put people in prison for doing it.

niyad

(112,434 posts)
53. of course it is too much to ask! you are acting like women matter, or something.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:19 PM
Dec 2014

I was pointing out to someone just yesterday that there really is little difference between using a blade or a gun when you kill someone. no real difference between beheadings and shootings (unless you count who is beheading and who is shooting)

enki23

(7,786 posts)
55. It does outrage us. But they are different.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:26 PM
Dec 2014

Over here, we don't see families demanding people kill their daughters for the crime of being raped very damned often. We have our own issues about rape and domestic violence, and they are big ones. But they aren't as big as *that*. You really can't get much bigger, or worse, than that. Next to murdering schools full of children. That's the summit of outrage mountain. Murdering your niece or cousin or fucking daughter for being raped is just an inch or two from the peak. Maybe. Or maybe they share the top. That's why they win a big share of the outrage prize, out of all the outrages humanity bombards us with every goddamned day.

And their outrageous religious bullshit, and their outrageous cultural bullshit makes it happen. Make it "okay." Make it fucking required, in many cases. And that is where outrage goes to fucking die. Hollows you out and leaves you full of dead nerves and heart attack over how fucked people can be if they think some fucking holy book or fucking holy man or fucking holy tradition tells them how to be fucking pure. They'll be as evil as they think they have to be in order to be good enough for their fucking culture. And that means humans are walking, talking robot meatbags whose only real law is "belong." And if there were a god, that would be the biggest outrage of them all.

ismnotwasm

(41,919 posts)
56. Easier to point fingers
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:32 PM
Dec 2014

Than examine ones own culture. Easier to deny than face the truth. Easier to distort statistics as well as mocking or even Threaten activists who point out gender inequality than do the painful self examination it takes to make that first change.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
60. False equivalence
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 03:35 PM
Dec 2014

First, most people in our country are shocked and dismayed by domestic homicides, even if apathetic.

Second, the story of a domestic homicide is so common that only local news outlets tend to cover it. Nor would their be enough time in a news media production to cover three domestic homicides every day. I feel your pain, but it simply is impractical.

I don't believe the presence of a gun affects the acceptability. It is the sheer number of domestic homicides that makes this subset unworthy of national and world news.

So while your sentiment is commendable, yes, showing "every murder of this type" is too much to ask.

Forcing gun manufacturers and a portion of gun rights clubs to pay for PSAs to discourage gun murder (similar to the tobacco companies paying for anti-tobacco media) would be more appropriate.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
65. "The US holds no moral high ground on this issue. It's all about control of women."
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 05:31 PM
Dec 2014

On paper we do.

Recently.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
66. America cannot smell it's own shit.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 06:44 PM
Dec 2014

And by shit, I mean the horrid shit that Americans do, like treating women like objects to torture and kill, while pointing fingers at other countries.

Another point: If serial killers killed men, they'd be caught much faster. Most serial killers that ARE caught, killed lots of men or boys. The ones who kill women don't tend to be caught as often. Even in my tiny little oh so "safe" (according to the locals who tried to inform me how dangerous upstate NY was going to be ) area, there has been a serial killer killing women by slashing them up for over 20 years now. The local cops didn't even want it mentioned in the local newspaper, but the sheriff in the county next to us allowed it in their newspaper. That's the only way I found out about it. No one I know in my county has even heard about it. There are no warnings to women to watch out for this serial killer and try to be a tad bit safer. They just. don't. care. It's women. If it was men, you can bet they would be working hard to try to catch this serial killer. It's women though. We don't fucking matter. Never have and never will. Most men in my area look at women as things to be controlled, not as humans. Women are not even allowed in the local homeless shelter here.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
71. They are different circumstances
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:57 PM
Dec 2014

In the US, spousal murder is more of a private thing that happens and their relatives are shocked afterwards.

In the Middle East, a girl (many aren't even 18) can be dragged into a town square and stoned to death. Often with her own father participating. That is obviously much more shocking than a husband murdering his wife. And individual can do anything if he's mentally unstable enough. That one rapper cut off his own penis and jumped out a building, for instance. But a whole village stands there while a girl is pelted to death? We're not used to that in modern times.

And besides, stoning a girl to death in many other countries is legal. Killing your wife isn't.

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)
77. So called "Honor killers" are often not punished, even though their crimes are known
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 03:09 AM
Dec 2014

Don't kill your wife and then go bragging about it, not in the United States. Especially not in the South.

There is a difference between crime and officially recognized, often legally sanctioned, killings.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
78. The difference is that no one here excuses these murders as "honor killings."
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 04:00 AM
Dec 2014

They recognize the evil, unlike those who support men in upholding their "honor" by killing their wives.

Response to boston bean (Original post)

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
80. Huge K & R
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 05:22 AM
Dec 2014

Domestic violence is one of the biggest problems in our country. We can do much better to reduce the numbers of men killing women. It's atrocious. It shocks the conscience.

librechik

(30,663 posts)
86. Oh, another one of THESE threads
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 11:31 AM
Dec 2014

"can we discuss how we in the US may be as guilty of ______ as others?"

The answer is NO! not without cynical attacks on every opinion. Especially the sunny liberal ones.

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