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ashling

(25,771 posts)
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 03:56 PM Oct 2015

Pope Francis Rejects Kim Davis’s Account Of Meeting And Refuses To Endorse Her Bigotry

Pope Francis Rejects Kim Davis’s Account Of Meeting And Refuses To Endorse Her Bigotry


http://www.politicususa.com/2015/10/02/pope-francis-throws-kim-davis-bigotry-bus.html

The Pope briefly met Kim Davis as part of a group, had no idea who she was, said hello to her, and moved on.

The Vatican’s version of events is the opposite of what Davis’s supporters are claiming happened. The anti-gay marriage crowd claimed that the Pope met with Davis in secret and expressed his support for her bigotry. The right has been using the imaginary meeting as an endorsement of their out of step views.

The extremist conservative movement’s attempt to use Pope Francis for propaganda purposes has fallen apart. Davis’s invitation had been extended by Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, the envoy in Washington. Viganò is well known to have gone further than others in the church in his campaign against gay marriage. The Pope did not invite Davis to meet him. In fact, according to the Vatican, Pope Francis had not been briefed on the situation and knew nothing about Davis.


also:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/before-kim-davis-the-pope-hung-out-with-a-gay-couple/408718/?utm_source=SFFB
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Pope Francis Rejects Kim Davis’s Account Of Meeting And Refuses To Endorse Her Bigotry (Original Post) ashling Oct 2015 OP
Figured as much. madamesilverspurs Oct 2015 #1
Then someone on his team needs to be canned. trumad Oct 2015 #2
The nuncio in Washington is apparently responsible. I don't know the politics pnwmom Oct 2015 #14
Apparently he is going to be out of his job hifiguy Oct 2015 #106
Then the gift of rosaries is also a fraud. madaboutharry Oct 2015 #3
While I'm not too privy to Catholic protocol, I'm guessing that if she can produce the rosaries, kevinbgoode1 Oct 2015 #39
A 4 time divorced Catholic can't partake in communion Generic Other Oct 2015 #49
And Henry the VIII chopped off a couple of his wives heads, too. demosincebirth Oct 2015 #54
Three times divorced. Doesn't make it any better. Thor_MN Oct 2015 #55
Easy to lose count with that one Generic Other Oct 2015 #57
Jesus said Geronimoe Oct 2015 #85
Jesus gave lip service to the religious teachings (Torah) of his time. BUT senz Oct 2015 #91
She's not Catholic. rug Oct 2015 #63
Her parents supposedly are Generic Other Oct 2015 #70
At this point I wouldn't believe LiberalElite Oct 2015 #66
Would she make the holy water boil? Generic Other Oct 2015 #71
everyone who sees the pope gets rosaries, it is cheap stuff. hollysmom Oct 2015 #52
It's like beads at Mardi Gras ballabosh Oct 2015 #77
you got me. +1 hollysmom Oct 2015 #98
She is trying to sell her book, this story is a good reason to pass her book, Thinkingabout Oct 2015 #4
great. so now she will profit restorefreedom Oct 2015 #48
Probably woth the guidance of her spiritual advisor Huckabee who tried to use this to get votes. Thinkingabout Oct 2015 #50
that slimy bastard restorefreedom Oct 2015 #53
But, but, but... bobclark86 Oct 2015 #5
But what about this being "shit I fucked up" CYOA revisionism? whatthehey Oct 2015 #11
No, he's neither. He's just someone who trusted the nuncio (top diplomat) in Washington pnwmom Oct 2015 #15
Maybe he didn't finish thumbing through "This week in attention whores" on the flight over. dakota_democrat Oct 2015 #28
Thread winner here bvf Oct 2015 #64
Which is weird, because he was on the cover of that issue. Iggo Oct 2015 #83
Forgive them, they did not know. The Pope's office hadn't put out their statement yet. Dont call me Shirley Oct 2015 #13
OK, here ya go: bvf Oct 2015 #44
The Pope most certainly doe s NOT say that any or all of those people are doomed to hell. Drahthaardogs Oct 2015 #59
By all means, do entertain us bvf Oct 2015 #60
Which monastery? rug Oct 2015 #65
The Abbey of the Genesee bvf Oct 2015 #68
Ah, Piffard. The bread monks. rug Oct 2015 #69
A few weeks, maybe close to a couple of months. bvf Oct 2015 #72
It's a place I'd like to visit. rug Oct 2015 #73
I think it's still there, but probably minus Brother Elias. bvf Oct 2015 #74
I doubt anyone knows God. rug Oct 2015 #75
This message was self-deleted by its author bvf Oct 2015 #76
I completely understand the RCC's bvf Oct 2015 #78
Quotation marks have a purpose. rug Oct 2015 #93
I think they're saying that hell is separation from God. Period. senz Oct 2015 #94
That's what they seem to be saying, bvf Oct 2015 #101
I agree. senz Oct 2015 #109
I find I have lot more respect for the views bvf Oct 2015 #114
Well, spiritual beliefs attained in adulthood usually have a different basis senz Oct 2015 #122
So please show me in the Catechism Drahthaardogs Oct 2015 #80
Show me you understand bvf Oct 2015 #100
I see very well that you caveated your response with an out for repentence. Drahthaardogs Oct 2015 #104
Stop putting words in my mouth. bvf Oct 2015 #105
Whatever. Drahthaardogs Oct 2015 #111
Yeah, "whatever." Good one. bvf Oct 2015 #112
I love how Catholics lay out these elaborate theology traps Lordquinton Oct 2015 #88
Do you feel trapped? rug Oct 2015 #96
This Pope will give many Catholics the cover they "need" demwing Oct 2015 #99
American catholics don't need any cover, IMO. bvf Oct 2015 #118
if you don't believe that stuff yourself, treestar Oct 2015 #115
Here are your answers. bvf Oct 2015 #119
I didn't believe it for one simple reason--because I have never seen a more professional, MADem Oct 2015 #79
He has publicly and repeatedly endorsed her bigotry. gcomeau Oct 2015 #6
Kickin' to read later. Faux pas Oct 2015 #7
That is far more than plausible. hifiguy Oct 2015 #8
Read this, tell me why you support it. Bluenorthwest Oct 2015 #27
Uh, they say nothing about supporting that..... daleanime Oct 2015 #32
His alliance with the FRC endorses her bigotry. PeaceNikki Oct 2015 #9
They refuse to read or acknowledge any of the facts because it is not their rights up for grabs. Bluenorthwest Oct 2015 #29
I hate to say it, but You are right on that. I can't believe the response I am seeing nt LostOne4Ever Oct 2015 #30
So much blatant lying FlatBaroque Oct 2015 #10
It was Huckabee leftynyc Oct 2015 #12
Then there's SitNextTo Kim Davis' Tweet. longship Oct 2015 #16
mark for later ...... Lil Missy Oct 2015 #17
Just points out the dishonesty of Kim & her friends. senz Oct 2015 #18
You can also buy them at https://pope.hhf Elmer S. E. Dump Oct 2015 #33
How Many More Times Is The Vatican Going To Re-Write This? NonMetro Oct 2015 #19
By now Thespian2 Oct 2015 #20
The Vatican is a grifting organization into wielding power and raking in $$, too. Arugula Latte Oct 2015 #26
Frank does seem like a nice guy. gvstn Oct 2015 #41
Actually, I do know a bit about Roman Catholics. Thespian2 Oct 2015 #61
The story of humaniy is "literally a story of rape, pillage and plunder." rug Oct 2015 #67
How did he reject her account? LostOne4Ever Oct 2015 #21
Good Question! NonMetro Oct 2015 #82
Holy F'ing Clairvoyance, Batman! Wow - this Pope really is miraculous! Tommymac Oct 2015 #86
And You Said It So Well! NonMetro Oct 2015 #87
Sheesh, how many people are going to repeat the nonsense skepticscott Oct 2015 #89
Oh wow, they LIED? Helen Borg Oct 2015 #22
I KNOW, I just cannnot beleive they would lie either! dae Oct 2015 #46
How do you reconcile the fact that he has spoken out against gay marriage and gay adoption? Arugula Latte Oct 2015 #23
Where is the part where he uses the term 'bigotry' about her? Is that just made up? Bluenorthwest Oct 2015 #24
Thank you. Well said. WestSeattle2 Oct 2015 #43
Who wouldda thunk? City Lights Oct 2015 #25
He endorses her bigotry every day...nt SidDithers Oct 2015 #31
That he does! Behind the Aegis Oct 2015 #56
This woman is showing her true colors:) Ahpook Oct 2015 #34
Such good church people. mdbl Oct 2015 #36
That's more or less how it went Ahpook Oct 2015 #38
That's what makes me so sick about these people. They can do anything they smirkymonkey Oct 2015 #81
I don't see how it much matters. Bigotry is bigotry. Prism Oct 2015 #35
Kim Davis, her Lawyer, and her supporters are lying liars Matariki Oct 2015 #37
archbishop realizes he overplayed his hand MisterP Oct 2015 #40
Yeah, Davis's story was unbelievable from the outset. Aldo Leopold Oct 2015 #42
Let's cut the crap sulphurdunn Oct 2015 #45
Pope Frankie McDreamy made a PR poo-poo; tries to backpedal in papal Humblemobile™ REP Oct 2015 #47
What does her religion say about lying? notadmblnd Oct 2015 #51
Is trolling the Pope and lying about him Generic Other Oct 2015 #58
Well, if you actually *planned* to troll bvf Oct 2015 #62
venal treestar Oct 2015 #117
Is the Pope trolling the world and lying to it Lordquinton Oct 2015 #120
Good question Generic Other Oct 2015 #121
There is little difference, except in tone, between Benedict and Francis Lordquinton Oct 2015 #123
Some of us are being prematurely hopeful maybe Generic Other Oct 2015 #124
Growing up I used to like the pope Lordquinton Oct 2015 #125
I'm still not going gaga over Pope Francis. I am happy to see him address income inequality and catbyte Oct 2015 #84
vatican fires gay priest on eve of synod (so much for not endorsing kimmy's bigotry) niyad Oct 2015 #90
I knew that the Pope could never have endorsed Kim Davis' behavior senz Oct 2015 #92
Pope Francis firmly believes skepticscott Oct 2015 #95
Apparently you haven't been paying much attention to him. senz Oct 2015 #97
So you're claiming that he's not a bigot, just a poor, misunderstood, powerless idiot mr blur Oct 2015 #102
No. Nothing like that. senz Oct 2015 #108
Apparently our friend had no answer for anything skepticscott Oct 2015 #113
people are very complex treestar Oct 2015 #116
Pope Francis firmly believes skepticscott Oct 2015 #103
Davis is a lying sack of crap hifiguy Oct 2015 #107
This is exactly what Thom Hartmann surmised on his show. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2015 #110

madamesilverspurs

(15,784 posts)
1. Figured as much.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 04:03 PM
Oct 2015

Our priest, sometimes accompanied by a visiting bishop, would stand at the door to shake hands with parishioners and exchange brief greetings with them. It’s a pleasant courtesy, but no one would ever try to spin it as a private audience. Well, almost no one.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
14. The nuncio in Washington is apparently responsible. I don't know the politics
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 04:54 PM
Oct 2015

of the Vatican enough to know how feasible it would be to can him.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
106. Apparently he is going to be out of his job
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 06:44 PM
Oct 2015

as soon as is "reasonably feasible."

You don't embarrass the Big Boss in public.

kevinbgoode1

(153 posts)
39. While I'm not too privy to Catholic protocol, I'm guessing that if she can produce the rosaries,
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 06:48 PM
Oct 2015

my suspicion would be on the DC Cardinal giving them to her rather than the Pop

I find it rather unusual that, if her parents are devout Catholics, that she ended up something else - or even a Protestant denomination that is fundamentally opposed to Catholic doctrine. I've thought from the beginning that the meeting was orchestrated and Cardinal Hate-The-Gays doesn't surprise me if he's the one behind the arrangements.

Generic Other

(28,979 posts)
49. A 4 time divorced Catholic can't partake in communion
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 07:25 PM
Oct 2015

and be absolved of sins. They are somewhere between limbo and excommunication. Not any Catholics I can think of who have divorced 4 times and had children out of wedlock. Henry VIII, and he had to become a Protestant. So did Ms. Davis.

 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
55. Three times divorced. Doesn't make it any better.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 09:17 PM
Oct 2015

One could argue only twice, since she remarried one of the ones she divorced.

Your points are all valid, just the count of divorces is off.

 

Geronimoe

(1,539 posts)
85. Jesus said
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 10:25 AM
Oct 2015

You only get one marriage, everything else is adultery. Except if husband dies, wife can marry brother and become a baby vessel for him.

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
91. Jesus gave lip service to the religious teachings (Torah) of his time. BUT
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 12:45 PM
Oct 2015

that was not the core of his teachings and not what he emphasized. So he would quote from the Torah and then add a twist that pulls everyone up short and makes them think differently. Because Jesus did not come here to load us up with a bunch of rules. He came here to open our minds and hearts, and that, which is the core of his teaching, is what gets lost when people try to turn him into a some disgusting rightwing taskmaster.

Here's the twist (from the Sermon on the Mount):

You have heard that it was said, “You shall not commit adultery.” But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
-- Mat. 5:27-28

Jesus wasn't concerned with sex and certainly not with gender issues and homosexuality. But he did want us to understand that who and what we are is more a matter of what's in our hearts than our outward behavior. Similarly, in the same chapter he says that feeling anger is on a par with committing murder.

Did he expect human beings to quit feeling lust and anger? Doubtful. But he did want them to become self-aware and stop feeling morally superior to others.

Generic Other

(28,979 posts)
70. Her parents supposedly are
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 11:36 PM
Oct 2015

so I am assuming she was once a Catholic girl. Until her many falls from grace. Then she went to the Duggar church of fundie extremism to be washed clean.

LiberalElite

(14,691 posts)
66. At this point I wouldn't believe
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 11:21 PM
Oct 2015

her if she did show us the rosaries. Anybody can buy rosaries. It's not like they're a rare item.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
4. She is trying to sell her book, this story is a good reason to pass her book,
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 04:12 PM
Oct 2015

I did not think she would stay in jail until the judge changed his mind, it was a sham.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
53. that slimy bastard
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 08:52 PM
Oct 2015

would sell out the catholics in 2 seconds flat if it suited his purposes but has no compunction about using the pope (and davis as a willing) as props

real "Christian" of them.

bobclark86

(1,415 posts)
5. But, but, but...
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 04:16 PM
Oct 2015

What about the OUTRAGE?!?! The OUTRAGE is more important than FACTS!!!! What about the "Fuck the pope" thread with 68 Rec's? http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027214856

(and for those as perceptive as a stoner Tyberian bat, )

whatthehey

(3,660 posts)
11. But what about this being "shit I fucked up" CYOA revisionism?
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 04:39 PM
Oct 2015

Why would she even be on his list at all? He's either an easily duped idiot or a willing bigot, and idiots haven't gotten to be Pope for the last 3 or 4 centuries.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
15. No, he's neither. He's just someone who trusted the nuncio (top diplomat) in Washington
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 04:56 PM
Oct 2015

when Davis was sent through with dozens of other guests.

And it isn't CYOA revisionism. It's correcting the false record put out by the rightwingers behind Davis.

Just use your common sense.. If he HAD wanted to make a pro Kim Davis or anti-LGBT statement while he was here, he had plenty of opportunities to do so. And he studiously avoided them. Why would have have colluded with them in this big show after he left?

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
44. OK, here ya go:
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 07:01 PM
Oct 2015

Fuck the pope regardless.

Even if it turned out that Frank never came within shouting distance of this little shit, that wouldn't change a thing.

He still maintains that gays and lesbians who unapologetically act on their sexuality are doomed to an eternity of suffering.

Same with women who have abortions.

Same with anyone using any form of contraception.

He's no less an asshole because some much smaller asshole concocted a fiction with him in a leading role. If anything, it just lets him add "world-class sap" to his credentials.

Meanwhile, a very large gaggle of child rapists remains under the protection of the institution he leads.

Fuck him.

Happy now?

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
59. The Pope most certainly doe s NOT say that any or all of those people are doomed to hell.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 09:36 PM
Oct 2015

You know nothing. No priest, no Bishop, No Cardinal, nor Pope would EVER claim to know who is damned and who is not. That is alone is only known to God. A priest will not even say that Hitler himself went to hell.

I do so love me those who think they know the Catholic faith when in fact they do not.

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
60. By all means, do entertain us
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 10:30 PM
Oct 2015

with your prodigious knowledge of the Catechism.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

A Jesuit education and a stay in a Trappist monastery weren't completely lost on me, friend.

On edit:

You do know what "unapologetically" means, correct? (Hint: I used it for a reason.)

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
69. Ah, Piffard. The bread monks.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 11:33 PM
Oct 2015

I thought it might have been St. Joseph's, the jelly monks.

How long was your stay?

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
72. A few weeks, maybe close to a couple of months.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 11:50 PM
Oct 2015

But I never got to help with the bread.

Interestingly, shortly after I returned to real life, I reclaimed my previous job as a clerk in a convenience store, where they had just started stocking "Monks' Bread." It wasn't a mover, and Millbrook dropped out as distributor shortly thereafter.

But we were talking about eternal damnation.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
73. It's a place I'd like to visit.
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 12:02 AM
Oct 2015

You should have asked Brother Elias if God has damned anyone.

Paragraph 133 at yor link states the teaching, that the rejection of God is one's own choice, not damnation.

To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

In my high school, Brother Watkins, a mere Irish Christian brother, often said that while the Church from time to time will declare someone to be a saint, it has never stated that anyone is in hell, including Judas

The concept of hell is a deliberate, knowing and conscious rejection of God. To do that, one does not deny the existence of God, but knows God, and then rejects.

As Bro. Watkins said, that is an enormously difficult, if not impossible task.

I believe that's what Francis meant when he remarked some time ago that atheists can go to heaven.

That said, I'd rather discuss bread and jelly.
 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
74. I think it's still there, but probably minus Brother Elias.
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 12:45 AM
Oct 2015

The concept of hell is a deliberate, knowing and conscious rejection of God. To do that, one does not deny the existence of God, but knows God, and then rejects.


See? This is the very kind of attempt at mind-fuckery that I find particularly galling.

Children of catholic families (in the main) certainly fall into the category of "those who know god," assuming the delusion holds sway into their adult years.

The message reads: think for yourself, and you're fucked.

---

I was especially fond of the Raisin Wheat loaf.

Brother Elias not only didn't (as I remember being told) utter a word, ever, but was also very selective about the visitors he allowed into his trailer in the woods, where he lived apart from the community.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
75. I doubt anyone knows God.
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 01:12 AM
Oct 2015

That is not mind-fuckery at all.

What I find galling is restating what is either misunderstood or disagreeable.

Regardless of whether or not anyone is in hell, the Catholic teaching is not at all that a psychopathic god is hurling people into hell for thinking.

I like raisin bread as well, preferably with icing.

Good night.

Response to rug (Reply #75)

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
78. I completely understand the RCC's
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 02:24 AM
Oct 2015

avoidance of the term "psychopathic" to describe their whatchamacallit. That would be stupid.

"Know god, and deny him, and well, fuck you for eternity"?

That seems a pretty harsh thing to teach a six-year-old, but millions are doing so as we speak. No denying that.

Religion is the single biggest reason the world is as fucked up as it is.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
93. Quotation marks have a purpose.
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 01:12 PM
Oct 2015

You misused them.

Off the top of my head I can think of four greater reasons why the world is as fucked up as it is (although punctuation is not one of them).

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
101. That's what they seem to be saying,
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 04:14 PM
Oct 2015

but they also seem to overlook this nugget:


The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."


Millions of kids have wretched shit like this shoved down their throats every day. It's contemptible.
 

senz

(11,945 posts)
109. I agree.
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 07:24 PM
Oct 2015

That's why I'm glad I was raised without religion. Much better to research these matters as an adult and then make up your own mind/heart with no parental or church interference.

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
114. I find I have lot more respect for the views
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:51 AM
Oct 2015

of someone who came to believe in the absence of childhood indoctrination.

That may sound haughty, but that's me.

In the words of the immortal Tom Lehrer:


To be an atheist is almost as arrogant as to be a fundamentalist. But then again, I can get pretty arrogant.
 

senz

(11,945 posts)
122. Well, spiritual beliefs attained in adulthood usually have a different basis
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 05:11 PM
Oct 2015

from those delivered by childhood authorities. Basic moral/ethical instruction is necessary, but a broader comprehension of the world, one's existential place in it, what it's for and what it means, comes more naturally and genuinely through observation, reason, contemplation, and lived experience. My parents and siblings were entirely materialistic (no religion and no one went to church), but I had a constant sense of "something deeper" in life and felt compelled to seek it. The resulting journey went from vague childhood feelings of love and gratitude toward something unseen and frequent encounters with intelligence in nature, to wide reading in the areas of spirituality, eastern religions, related philosophies (primarily existentialism), agnosticism, existential atheism (finding one's own meaning and moral system), brief, limited exposure to psychedelics with occasional visions and insights, and New Age explorations. I had no interest in Christianity, having observed Christians throughout my life. Then there was a fallow period underscored by slogging, undifferentiated faithfulness, when suddenly, unexpectedly, a shocking theophany left me in tears and changed my reality for good. I encountered and experienced the existence of a loving, personal, extremely powerful, suprahuman being. "God" is only a word, but it's a good enough word for it, for me.

I lived in that new reality for several years, letting it wander through me while continuing the ordinary activities of life which eventually led to a bit of reading in the New Testament and, to my amazement, falling in love with the astounding and perfect character of Jesus. I would never have expected this. Eventually that led to joining a church, getting baptized -- with a vague, troubling sense of making a mistake -- and after a decade of giving more than I had the energy to give, getting chewed up and spat out. Now I am gratefully unchurched again, still enriched by a continuing relationship with "God." Sometimes we have to go through these things; it's all a part of growing up, which, of course, continues into the foreseeable and unforseeable future.

Like they say, it's all good. Currently, my only spiritual reading is the emailed meditations of Richard Rohr, who is on pretty much the same wave length and admirably committed to sharing the beautiful insights that life brings into his mind and soul.

What I don't like is the assumption, based in millennia of organized religious activity, that one's personal experience/relationship/understanding of a suprahuman reality should ask or require anything whatsoever of anyone else. This is where I think all the friction and warfare come in. Afaic, all of that is crap, probably based in ego and dominance but possibly in simple human loneliness that wants to make everything into a group experience But when requirements enter the picture, it's crap. No one has the right to tell anyone else what to think, feel, or believe.

And don't worry about being haughty; it's just an attitude and probably won't last.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
80. So please show me in the Catechism
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 08:31 AM
Oct 2015

Where the Pope gets to judge on earth, and gets to tell everyone they are damned. Maybe you were not paying attention, or maybe you just had that classic Jesuit education on theology. Apparently the jokes are true?

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
100. Show me you understand
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 03:58 PM
Oct 2015

what "unapologetically" means. I think you missed it, despite my helpful hint.

And please review the link I provided. You must have missed that, too.

As far as jokes are concerned, I long ago dismissed the whole of religion as one, immense, tragic one, continually played on most of humanity, and usually starting in early childhood.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
104. I see very well that you caveated your response with an out for repentence.
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 04:32 PM
Oct 2015

My point is, the Pope does not go around condemning people to hell as you purport. Especially this Pope. In fact, just the opposite has happened. He has provided dispensation for ALL priests worldwide to give absolution for abortion (which is a big thing even though U.S. priests have had this for year). He speaks of social justice He has said there is more to talk about than abortion.

I am sorry you hate all religion. While there is bad, there is certainly much good to be gleaned from the teachings of Jesus. The Golden Rule pretty much espouses the Democratic platform.

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
105. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 06:17 PM
Oct 2015

I never said Frank "go(es) around condemning people to hell."

I'm done doing research for you. Have a look around and let me know if you think Frank's OK with gay sex, or whether he thinks dying without saying "I'm sorry for having it" doesn't send one straight to eternal fire.

As for absolution for abortion, it's tantamount to saying to women who have had to deal with the mental anguish that attends it that all can be forgiven by a man, as if there were anything here that required forgiveness at all. Fuck Frank for a PR move that only attempts to reinforce the subjugation of women. To utter pretty words about social justice while taking such a stance is unadulterated hypocrisy.

You speak of the golden rule as if some nonentity in a silly children's story owned rights to it. It's a distillation of a philosophy that is more or less culturally universal, and certainly predates some guy who supposedly hung around a lot of fishermen and made a name for himself performing party tricks.

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
112. Yeah, "whatever." Good one.
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 09:07 PM
Oct 2015

Remember all those headlines reading, "Pope Francis Rejects Church Doctrine"?

Me neither.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
88. I love how Catholics lay out these elaborate theology traps
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 11:29 AM
Oct 2015

in an attempt to assert dominance, but then are completely clueless that their current Pope literally travels the world fighting against LGBTQIA rights.

 

demwing

(16,916 posts)
99. This Pope will give many Catholics the cover they "need"
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 03:15 PM
Oct 2015

To vote for Bernie.

Love him, hate him, he's making economic justice a moral imperative, and many, many Hispanic voters are dedicated Catholics.

This Pope may help Bernie get elected. This Pope may help bring economic justice to America.

This must have some value to you?

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
118. American catholics don't need any cover, IMO.
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 01:40 PM
Oct 2015

In my experience, they basically adhere to the teachings of the church only when it proves convenient to do so. I grew up in a practically homogenous catholic neighborhood (OK, "parish," for those wishing to split hairs). Lots of abortions. Very few familiar faces at Sunday mass (which, as the son of a local businessman, I learned was merely a ritual observed by those wanting to keep up appearances).

American catholics are a shallow lot when it comes to their faith. Odd as it may be to say, I find that positively encouraging.

As for the throngs who turned out last week for Frank's visit, my guess is that most didn't have Clue #1 what he stands for. Just some famous, most-important god-believing guy who says what we already know: the climate is a mess, and rich people make too much money at everyone else's expense. Plus he doesn't wear the red shoes, which the guy on TV said is good for some reason.

When Frank says, "Vote for Sanders!" I'll pay closer attention. (Note to the thick: I know that's not going to happen, any more than that he'll be sporting a weathervane beanie anytime soon.)


treestar

(82,383 posts)
115. if you don't believe that stuff yourself,
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:59 AM
Oct 2015

how does the Pope or other people believing it have any meaning whatsoever?

And how are you going to convince them otherwise? Saying "fuck you" does not seem like it's going to work.

The progress that was made thus far was not made by people saying that kind of thing to those who they needed to evolve.

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
119. Here are your answers.
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 02:37 PM
Oct 2015

If you don't believe that stuff yourself,
how does the Pope or other people believing it have any meaning whatsoever?


In the sense that I don't believe the LGBT community deserves second-class status in a civilized society. I can cite at least five more examples, if you'd like.


And how are you going to convince them otherwise? Saying "fuck you" does not seem like it's going to work.


My post was in response to bobclark86, who snottily wondered where the "fuck the pope" posts were. I was happy to oblige (though I note he seems to have run off without responding).


The progress that was made thus far was not made by people saying that kind of thing to those who they needed to evolve.


What progress is that? I see a bunch of people gloating about how one homophobe tried unsuccessfully (maybe--the jury seems to be out on this) to game another homophobe. That's the opposite of progress, if you ask me.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
79. I didn't believe it for one simple reason--because I have never seen a more professional,
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 02:29 AM
Oct 2015

nuanced, "hit-the-right-notes" delegation of that size executed in a nearly flawless fashion--ever. From the speech to the mass and everything in between and afterwards, he just seemed to have everything scripted--but not over-scripted--to perfection. The spontaneous acts/comments just hit EVERY right note.


I just couldn't believe he'd leave on a cloud of goodwill, only to drop a turd the minute he got airborne. It just didn't resonate with me as believable, because no one who is that skilled at PR would fuck up that profoundly!

When the Vatican started using words like "exploited" and basically called her a liar, I thought to myself, "I'm betting at least two guys get some very 'interesting' assignments ... real soon."

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
6. He has publicly and repeatedly endorsed her bigotry.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 04:17 PM
Oct 2015

Trying to claim otherwise as this headline does is beyond dishonest.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
8. That is far more than plausible.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 04:21 PM
Oct 2015

Reichwinger makes up bogus story, screams to media.

Then it's completely debunked within 48 hours.

daleanime

(17,796 posts)
32. Uh, they say nothing about supporting that.....
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 06:05 PM
Oct 2015

not that that will make much difference to you. Have a great night.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
29. They refuse to read or acknowledge any of the facts because it is not their rights up for grabs.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 05:41 PM
Oct 2015

Right now I don't trust any of our candidates, this Party nor many of my fellow Democrats. They went with the bigot and did not even do due diligence. They just do not care what the truth is.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
12. It was Huckabee
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 04:40 PM
Oct 2015

who wrapped his arms around davis and this pope story. Wonder what he has to say about it now.

longship

(40,416 posts)
16. Then there's SitNextTo Kim Davis' Tweet.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 04:59 PM
Oct 2015
Sitnexto Kim Davis ?@nexttokimdavis
Not saying that @libertycounsel tricked @Pontifex into meeting #KimDavis. I am saying that we found a LOT of fake mustaches in her office.


This twitter account remains high art.


Another:

Sep 30
Sitnexto Kim Davis ?@nexttokimdavis
#KimDavis is holding communion in the break room. THOSE LOOK LIKE MY GODDAMN OREOS.
 

senz

(11,945 posts)
18. Just points out the dishonesty of Kim & her friends.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 05:17 PM
Oct 2015

They deliberately made it sound like the Pope supported her actions. Now we know that he had no idea who she was. And those rosaries he gave her that she so proudly presented to her parents? He gave them out to all the anonymous visitors he received.

NonMetro

(631 posts)
19. How Many More Times Is The Vatican Going To Re-Write This?
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 05:25 PM
Oct 2015

Based on previous announcements, I guess the Pope doesn't know what the Vatican is doing? How do we know whether the Vatican knows what the Pope is doing? When is the Pope going to call Kim Davis and her lawyer liars about this meeting? When?

Thespian2

(2,741 posts)
20. By now
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 05:26 PM
Oct 2015

the thinking public knows that Kim Davis is a grifter who took her "religious" stance as a way to make big money...and thanks to the pinheads who support her, she will...

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
26. The Vatican is a grifting organization into wielding power and raking in $$, too.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 05:36 PM
Oct 2015

Have you ever looked into the history of the RCC? It is literally a story of rape, pillage and plunder. Control of women and gays is high on the agenda, and always has been. Why pretend otherwise? Because Frank seems like a nice guy?

gvstn

(2,805 posts)
41. Frank does seem like a nice guy.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 06:50 PM
Oct 2015

Who might actually change the RCC into what it should be. Visit the sick and prisoners and the poor and give them kindness.

Frank may not be perfect but he has the balls to actually go out and preach the message. Plenty of Popes have been given the little black pill for speaking out of turn. Frank seems to not give a shit and is trying to change things for the better.

Hate him if you will but I think he is the best thing to happen to the RCC in a long time.

Thespian2

(2,741 posts)
61. Actually, I do know a bit about Roman Catholics.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 10:55 PM
Oct 2015

My point was about "religious" grifters like Kim Davis. I was not speaking about the Pope. I study religions; I do not like any of them.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
67. The story of humaniy is "literally a story of rape, pillage and plunder."
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 11:21 PM
Oct 2015

What's your point, that rape, pillage and plunder was invented in 33 CE?

LostOne4Ever

(9,267 posts)
21. How did he reject her account?
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 05:32 PM
Oct 2015

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]She Claimed all of the following:


1. That she briefly met the pope for less than 15minutes
2. They breifly discussed bravery
3. They hugged and promised to pray for each other
4. He told her to stay strong and thanked her for her courage
5. Finally he gave her two rosaries

What statement by the Vatican contradicts any of this?

The Vatican's only claims have been to NOT deny that the meeting took place, and to say that even if they did mean that doesn't necessarily mean he supports her.

The only thing that is really questionable is was it a private visit or not.

The statement about not "necessarily" supporting her being kinda of dumb seeing as he explicitly made a statement of support for her when he discussed conscientious objectors...so he already stated he supports her. Further, given that the vatican is against gay marriage should not surprise anyone.

So again, how was her account rejected?[/font]


NonMetro

(631 posts)
82. Good Question!
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 09:19 AM
Oct 2015

And now, we learn, a week since this controversy surfaced, that the Pope met with his gay friends? Why didn't anyone know about this before now? I guess it's: ignore Kim Davis and look: Pope Francis has gay friends!!

I'm still waiting for the pope to say Kim Davis and her attorney were lying. Like you, I haven't heard that yet.

Tommymac

(7,263 posts)
86. Holy F'ing Clairvoyance, Batman! Wow - this Pope really is miraculous!
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 10:29 AM
Oct 2015

Pope Frank musta had a divine insight that he would be meeting with Kim Davis in person in a ratfucking attempt to discredit him during his US visit - so he had his gay friend request a private meeting in DC weeks ago...and met with this friend the DAY BEFORE he saw Kim Davis who was planted in a receiving line set up by the local Vatican dudes to ratfuck him.

Yup, he covered his ass before the event even happened. That is one fucking miracle!


Seriously - that Right Wing Nutcase Kim Davis and her attorney are telling a fib. A fish story. A tall tale. a FUCKING LIE!!!!!!!!!!!

There - I said it.



 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
89. Sheesh, how many people are going to repeat the nonsense
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 12:38 PM
Oct 2015

that this was an attempt to "discredit" or "undermine" or "ratfuck" the pope, or some such? Davis's position and actions regarding same-sex marriage are perfectly in line with the pope's and with Catholic doctrine. So how is meeting with her an embarrassment for Francis?

If someone had snuck a rabid same-sex marriage advocate into a highly publicized meeting with the pope, THAT might have been an embarrassment for the pope and the church, but that's exactly the opposite of what happened.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
23. How do you reconcile the fact that he has spoken out against gay marriage and gay adoption?
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 05:33 PM
Oct 2015

Is that not bigotry?

If not, why not?

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
24. Where is the part where he uses the term 'bigotry' about her? Is that just made up?
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 05:34 PM
Oct 2015

Why do his defenders always make false assertions and refuse to learn the actual facts?
Vatican Strengthens Ties with Evangelicals and Mormons Against Gay Marriage
http://time.com/3597245/vatican-evangelicals-mormons-gay-marriage/


Any group that organizes against a minority and then denies it when found out is bereft of any sort of ethical sense at all.

Behind the Aegis

(53,833 posts)
56. That he does!
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 09:22 PM
Oct 2015

But speaking out against her homophobia is A-OK, speaking out against his makes you a "hater", "an ingrate", "unwilling to let go of the myth he is a bigot", and too stubborn "to apologize for calling him a bigot."

The message: Homophobia is BAD!**

**Unless you can make another homophobe look bad and have a gay friend...that you hug!

Ahpook

(2,747 posts)
34. This woman is showing her true colors:)
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 06:11 PM
Oct 2015

I have a few of these so called devout in my family that act very much the same. They will openly make racial slurs about almost anyone. And of course Obama is some covert Muslim hell-bent on destroying our country.

I dated a girl years ago who's parents were Pentecostal and just about as full of shit. Her mom was caught fucking the pastor and he was busted for some drug scandal, then the church burned down

These people are a joke

mdbl

(4,972 posts)
36. Such good church people.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 06:21 PM
Oct 2015

Don't forget, the sin is the work of Satan. That releases them from all responsibility for their awful behaviour.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
81. That's what makes me so sick about these people. They can do anything they
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 08:43 AM
Oct 2015

want. There is no morality. All they have to do is confess and pray and they are forgiven. There is no incentive to be a decent human being.

 

Prism

(5,815 posts)
35. I don't see how it much matters. Bigotry is bigotry.
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 06:11 PM
Oct 2015

No matter what the dimensions of the meeting were, he is still allied with her against LGBT equality.

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
45. Let's cut the crap
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 07:04 PM
Oct 2015

about this stupid theocratic puppet, her string pullers and all the religious frauds that support her. They are lying, snake oil peddlers on a nation scale. Their targets are self-righteous, low IQ religious bigots and other venomous haters. They are feted by commercial mass media because that narrative sells, is simple, emotive, and cheap to produce. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with religious or any other kind of liberty worth the name. The only question here should be who puts up the big money for it all and why?

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
62. Well, if you actually *planned* to troll
Fri Oct 2, 2015, 11:04 PM
Oct 2015

and deliberately lied about having done so, you win a place in one of the circles of hell.

Unless of course you say "sorry" at some point.

Ain't it a mystery, though?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
117. venal
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:06 PM
Oct 2015

trolling the Pope probably isn't a sin. I suppose lying is bearing false witness though. But for nonbelievers, it is arguably irrelevant.

Generic Other

(28,979 posts)
121. Good question
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 05:08 PM
Oct 2015

What happened to Ratzie? I hear he's in a Papal dungeon.

You really think it is all about damage control now? That he actually admires Kim Davis? That he's throwing her under the bus to avoid embarrassment? That makes him look pretty bad if it is true, so I can understand your skepticism.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
123. There is little difference, except in tone, between Benedict and Francis
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 05:36 PM
Oct 2015

Francis and Davis share their views on marriage equality, in fact I hear the Pope just opened the synod with a speech against it, so it's really hard to tell.

Generic Other

(28,979 posts)
124. Some of us are being prematurely hopeful maybe
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 06:17 PM
Oct 2015

I am not going to defend him or the church, but I do think the fundie Protestants purposely played him because they thought they would get away with it. It's really up to him to mend the fences. I am not a religious person, so my opinion means nothing. I do defend LGBT rights and women's choice which has always put me at odds with most church doctrine anyway.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
125. Growing up I used to like the pope
Mon Oct 5, 2015, 12:32 AM
Oct 2015

would always watch midnight mass and all that. I was able to hold onto that innocence until Benedict was elected, and then it became easy to dislike him, he started life literally a Hitler youth, and didn't progress much further (And he looked like an evil sorcerer) I had been speculating for a while that they would follow JP with someone horrible, then follow that Pope with someone who was great to kinda reset the papacy in terms of public perception.

Who comes next? Probably someone forgettable who will let the power structure recover from the scandals that have been rocking the church for decades (Longer, really. Has it ever been scandal free?) I really don't understand how anyone can look at what's happened and not turn around immediately.

The Pope isn't a good man, and that is not a specific charge against Frank, it's part of the role. They claim the hate is part of unchangeable scripture, and there hasn't been one to buck it in ages. Like I've said before, when he performs a marriage ceremony for two female priests we can talk progressive actions.

catbyte

(34,174 posts)
84. I'm still not going gaga over Pope Francis. I am happy to see him address income inequality and
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 10:20 AM
Oct 2015

climate change, but I still don't trust him to make any significant changes. I'm Ojibwe, so I'm naturally skeptical of the church. I hope I'm wrong.

niyad

(112,436 posts)
90. vatican fires gay priest on eve of synod (so much for not endorsing kimmy's bigotry)
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 12:40 PM
Oct 2015

Vatican fires gay priest on eve of synod

VATICAN CITY (AP) — The Vatican on Saturday fired a monsignor who came out as gay on the eve of a big meeting of the world's bishops to discuss church outreach to gays, divorcees and more traditional Catholic families.


Monsignor Krzysztof Charamsa, left, and his boyfriend Eduard, surname not given, pose for a photo as they leave a restaurant after a news conference in downtown Rome, Saturday Oct. 3, 2015.


The Vatican took action after Krzysztof Charamsa, a mid-level official in its doctrine office, came out in newspaper interviews in Italy and Poland saying he was happy and proud to be a gay priest, and that he was in love with a man whom he identified as his boyfriend.

"The decision to make such a pointed statement on the eve of the opening of the synod appears very serious and irresponsible, since it aims to subject the synod assembly to undue media pressure," the Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said in a statement.

As a result, Charamsa could no longer work at the Vatican or its pontifical universities, he said. Despite his dismissal, Charamsa remains a priest, although Lombardi hinted that his superiors could take further action.


. . . .

http://www.mail.com/news/world/3863332-vatican-fires-gay-priest-eve-synod.html#.23140-stage-hero1-8

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
92. I knew that the Pope could never have endorsed Kim Davis' behavior
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 12:57 PM
Oct 2015

and said so here on DU, for which I got two replies insisting that he did.

Kim Davis is self-righteous, judgmental, oppressive, and cruel. So too, in many respects, is the Catholic Church. But Pope Francis has already shown us over and over again that he is not like that. That is why so many people instinctively love this man and it is also the reason why conservatives don't trust him and don't like him.

It's ironic (and interesting) that both conservatives and virulent atheists share a rejection of this Pope's best qualities.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
95. Pope Francis firmly believes
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 01:30 PM
Oct 2015

and advocates publicly and vigorously that an entire class of adult beings should be deprived of their full human rights, simply because of who and what they are. Decent, thinking people unhesitatingly condemn that as bigotry, no matter how nice a face you or he try to put on it. Is that one of those "best qualities" that you accuse us "virulent atheists" of rejecting?

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
97. Apparently you haven't been paying much attention to him.
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 02:28 PM
Oct 2015

First, you need to understand that church doctrine cannot be changed by a Pope. So if he's going to keep his job (and his major identity in life), he cannot clearly and openly defy doctrine. Secondly, he has already said that the church has been talking too much about gays and abortion. When asked about gays, his response was, "Who am I to judge?" That's meaningful. As much as you might want to hang on to your safe and familiar hate object, it's out there and it's meaningful.

Secondly, he had a private meeting with a gay couple that was actually warm, personal, meaningful and accepting, unlike the Kim Davis lie.

?1443806943

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/before-kim-davis-the-pope-hung-out-with-a-gay-couple/408718/

 

mr blur

(7,753 posts)
102. So you're claiming that he's not a bigot, just a poor, misunderstood, powerless idiot
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 04:30 PM
Oct 2015

who doesn't really know what's going on but wanders through life inspiring people to "love" him? Kind of like. . . well, a Forrest Gump or George W. Bush?

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
113. Apparently our friend had no answer for anything
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 11:48 AM
Oct 2015

The denial is very strong among some here. Sad, on a progressive web site.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
116. people are very complex
Sun Oct 4, 2015, 12:05 PM
Oct 2015

the black and white if you're not with me on this one issue, you're not to be considered a fellow human, doesn't work anyway. How did we get as far as we have? By treating the ignorant and bigoted with hate and disdain? People must have changed their minds over the years - I've seen it happen over the last 40 years or so. How did that happen? And how can we enjoy the progress made if we are still going to hate people who ever thought wrongly?

Rage against the Catholic Church is not likely to make it any better. It changes very slowly, being an ancient institution. Up to 30 years ago, it was no different than most of society. How we change that is a question to be considered.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
103. Pope Francis firmly believes
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 04:31 PM
Oct 2015

and advocates publicly and vigorously that an entire class of adult beings should be deprived of their full human rights, simply because of who and what they are.

You don't even attempt to dispute that (probably because, as we both know, you can't). And apparently, it doesn't disturb you at all, though it's hard to understand how anyone who claims to be a progressive could fail be outraged by it.

As far as church doctrine, so what? Does it REQUIRE every representative of the church to campaign actively for human rights violations? No. And if you think otherwise, WTF are you doing supporting or defending such an organization?

And tell you what...why don't you put that cherry-picked "who am I to judge" quote in its full context? It's been mis-used so often that I'm amazed people still try to slip it by. As far as it being "meaningful", apparently not so much:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141223768
Vatican fires gay priest on eve of Catholic bishops meeting

Apparently that qualifies as "not judging" to you.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
107. Davis is a lying sack of crap
Sat Oct 3, 2015, 06:46 PM
Oct 2015

as is her nitwit lawyer. This was nothing but a bogus publicity stunt, as has been made exceedingly clear.

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