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Hey! Looky here! No connection between lax gun laws and gun related deaths. (Original Post) onehandle Oct 2015 OP
Hey! But you don't the exact difference between this one kind of semi-automatic villager Oct 2015 #1
could you plcdude Oct 2015 #2
Added it to the bottom of the OP. nt onehandle Oct 2015 #3
Try again. JonathanRackham Oct 2015 #4
I bet it is really hard for you not to say CHICAGO Skittles Oct 2015 #52
Hilarious and true. And the counter is usually New Orleans TrollBuster9090 Oct 2015 #73
excellent post Skittles Oct 2015 #78
Yeah but the Wash Post fact checked the President to keep the Repubs happy underpants Oct 2015 #5
The WaPo TeddyR Oct 2015 #9
Precisely. Mashing up homicides and suicides only confuses the issue. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #13
It only confuses the issue if one thinks people who killed themselves kcr Oct 2015 #16
Not remotely true. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #17
Very true. kcr Oct 2015 #18
Ah, another "tele-psychoanalyst!" Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #20
Of course not kcr Oct 2015 #21
Good riddance to you. Human101948 Oct 2015 #30
"You are merely rationalizing it by claiming the motivation matters. It does not." beevul Oct 2015 #55
What do you mean by eliminating the root cause? kcr Oct 2015 #67
Who knew. beevul Oct 2015 #70
It's a wonder is still working! pocoloco Oct 2015 #96
This message was self-deleted by its author postatomic Oct 2015 #15
Yes, waiting periods are the one column on the chart relevant to suicides. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author postatomic Oct 2015 #34
No, not remove. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #35
It's like they miss the essential truth malaise Oct 2015 #36
Except when that isn't true. Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2015 #39
Dude, you've been HAD by a "Chaffetz-Chart." GunFact.info is showing you "All Homicides" TrollBuster9090 Oct 2015 #76
The chart I posted deals with violent crime regardless of weapon used. Yours only Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2015 #77
So what was your point? TrollBuster9090 Oct 2015 #80
The absence of guns is not the same as the absence of violence. Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2015 #83
The two issues ARE related, at least on the small scale. Since most of the crackpots who carry out TrollBuster9090 Oct 2015 #74
The WaPo is wrong kcr Oct 2015 #25
Thank you underpants Oct 2015 #31
Hmmmm...... CajunBlazer Oct 2015 #50
talk to the unicorn HERVEPA Oct 2015 #54
Not familar with the term - is that your way of saying you don't have a good answer? (n/t) CajunBlazer Oct 2015 #65
Guns tend to escalate, rather than diffuse aggressive situations. Does anybody really believe that TrollBuster9090 Oct 2015 #79
Excellent post. (n/t) CajunBlazer Oct 2015 #98
The first box in the Illinois column says FOID shenmue Oct 2015 #6
Firearm Owners ID Scuba Oct 2015 #7
K&R Scuba Oct 2015 #8
Good article Gothmog Oct 2015 #10
I question the validity of the information on this chart. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #11
You mean you question SOME of the information Flying Squirrel Oct 2015 #40
How many errors are there? Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #43
You tell me n/t Flying Squirrel Oct 2015 #60
That's the point. We don't know. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #61
Then we're done here Flying Squirrel Oct 2015 #64
If there is an error for the information on one state, then it is likey there are other errors. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #82
By your logic Flying Squirrel Oct 2015 #84
Even with the permit to purchase they still do a NICS check. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #86
So is calling an entire piece of research invalid Flying Squirrel Oct 2015 #88
That's my point. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #89
I got your point right away Flying Squirrel Oct 2015 #91
Ok, me too. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #92
Most of those regulations wouldn't affect suicides. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #12
The statistics suggest that's not the case WestCoastLib Oct 2015 #19
See post #9 (nt) Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #22
That WaPo article he cited but didn't link to is wrong. kcr Oct 2015 #26
Post#9 supports what I said. WestCoastLib Oct 2015 #27
I suspect waiting periods certainly do. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #32
so you're arguing there's a high correlation between states geek tragedy Oct 2015 #28
A lot of them are largely rural. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #29
Iowa, Nebraska, Vermont and New Hampshire are all rural states. geek tragedy Oct 2015 #33
One other major fact is ignored in states that have the higher rates. 7962 Oct 2015 #94
Great information and all in one place Blus4u Oct 2015 #14
Wrong. Washington DC has a higher murder rate by far than any state LittleBlue Oct 2015 #24
Uh, your first statement is incorrect. "By far" makes it more misleading. louis-t Oct 2015 #37
Wrong. Sort by gun murders per 100000 LittleBlue Oct 2015 #42
Not according to the chart in the OP. louis-t Oct 2015 #44
The chart in the OP includes suicides LittleBlue Oct 2015 #45
Which star on the American flag belongs to the 'State' of Washington DC? onehandle Oct 2015 #38
Suicide is not gun crime LittleBlue Oct 2015 #46
The word 'crime' is nowhere in the OP. onehandle Oct 2015 #48
Of course it's not. Why include it when you can leave people misinformed? LittleBlue Oct 2015 #49
Pointing out NH and VT Flying Squirrel Oct 2015 #41
That chart is bogus LittleBlue Oct 2015 #47
Nobody? Flying Squirrel Oct 2015 #63
That will be ignored or rationalized by people that love their guns. Rex Oct 2015 #51
have you noticed the influx of gun-humping newbies? Skittles Oct 2015 #53
Yes I think they are scared of losing their Precious. Rex Oct 2015 #56
Theres 'rates', and theres reality. beevul Oct 2015 #57
Hmmm. Maybe because it reflects the reality truebluegreen Oct 2015 #58
Hah. beevul Oct 2015 #59
Despite the misleading title, truebluegreen Oct 2015 #66
None of what you say changes the facts. beevul Oct 2015 #71
Most normal posters post a link to their source. Where is yours??? nt Logical Oct 2015 #62
Here ya go. beevul Oct 2015 #72
Won't matter... LannyDeVaney Oct 2015 #68
More facts for the Pro-Gun crowd patsimp Oct 2015 #69
Wrong. It's because bicycles are more dangerous than guns! Like duh. nt Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #75
I stand corrected patsimp Oct 2015 #87
Explain Washington. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2015 #81
have to cynically laugh on IA Vs MN PatrynXX Oct 2015 #85
Hey How'd you do that? MrMickeysMom Oct 2015 #90
Damn rethuglicans in Florida are going to permit open carry. Lunabell Oct 2015 #93
You forget facts don't matter to rethugs Cosmic Dancer Oct 2015 #95
Well Said.....facts like this post don't matter to the rethugs..k and r..again..nt Stuart G Oct 2015 #97
 

villager

(26,001 posts)
1. Hey! But you don't the exact difference between this one kind of semi-automatic
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 11:13 AM
Oct 2015

...and this other one, with a slightly different magazine capacity!

Therefore, your entire post is invalid!

JonathanRackham

(1,604 posts)
4. Try again.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 11:22 AM
Oct 2015

They should do that again by major cities so as to not discriminate against rural people. It would highlight the socioeconomic disparity which is related to violence.

TrollBuster9090

(5,953 posts)
73. Hilarious and true. And the counter is usually New Orleans
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 03:54 PM
Oct 2015

But seriously, as we all know, if they're giving away guns in Cracker-Jack boxes in Georgia, it makes very little difference if New York has gun laws. Third parties just buy them en masse in Georgia, and fence them to crooks in New York. The only solution to any of these problems is a national gun registry, so that every time a crook is caught with a gun they're not legally allowed to have, you can look up who was SUPPOSED to have it, and then go ask them why they no longer do. Nothing will ever change until the gun show loop hole is closed, and STRAW PURCHASERS start going to jail.

One possible way to do this is to simply make a federal mandate that the STATE governments have to maintain individual gun registries. That might shut up just enough of the "the federal gubmint's trying to steal our gunz" crazies get it passed into law.

Skittles

(152,964 posts)
78. excellent post
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 05:36 PM
Oct 2015

I completely agree with your assessment

and I am SO fed up with the latest influx of NRA-fueled gun nuts showing up on DU

underpants

(182,273 posts)
5. Yeah but the Wash Post fact checked the President to keep the Repubs happy
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 11:29 AM
Oct 2015

I can't post the link but there was a thread yesterday.

 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
9. The WaPo
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 11:39 AM
Oct 2015

Pointed out that once you remove suicide by firearms then this chart is dramatically different. For example, Utah I believe moves up to 8th while NY drops to 15th or so and half of the top ten become states with more lenient gun control laws. And Maryland, among the most stringent states, drops all the way to 45th because of the pervasive gun violence in that state. So the chart, without context, proves nothing. The WaPo also pointed out that there is little evidence that stricter gun control laws reduce suicide rates, so it is sort of disingenuous to include suicides when discussing gun control. But if the facts don't fit your story then just ignore the facts I guess.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
13. Precisely. Mashing up homicides and suicides only confuses the issue.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 01:06 PM
Oct 2015

That's because the two forms of "gun death" are so vastly different in virtually all contributing causal factors (which means the solutions to each problem are going to be similarly different).

kcr

(15,300 posts)
16. It only confuses the issue if one thinks people who killed themselves
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 01:48 PM
Oct 2015

are somehow less dead. Or simply doesn't give a shit about them.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
17. Not remotely true.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:20 PM
Oct 2015

Again, they are two very different situations in terms of the causal factors behind them, the motivations behind the acts. When problems have different causes, they'll have different solutions (obviously...).

kcr

(15,300 posts)
18. Very true.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:23 PM
Oct 2015

Dead is dead is dead is dead. You are merely rationalizing it by claiming the motivation matters. It does not. Suicide by gun is every bit as violent and every bit as dead.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
20. Ah, another "tele-psychoanalyst!"
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:24 PM
Oct 2015

*yawn*

Buh-bye...not interested in wasting any more time or keystrokes on inanities like that.

kcr

(15,300 posts)
21. Of course not
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:25 PM
Oct 2015

Much easier to pretend that people who blow their brains out don't count as gun victims.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
55. "You are merely rationalizing it by claiming the motivation matters. It does not."
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 10:06 PM
Oct 2015
"You are merely rationalizing it by claiming the motivation matters. It does not."


I've always suspected this was, by and large, the position of most 'strict' gun control proponents.

You're right in one sense:

The motivation only matters to people that are interested in eliminating the root cause, rather than going after guns.

I appreciate your candor.

kcr

(15,300 posts)
67. What do you mean by eliminating the root cause?
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 10:08 AM
Oct 2015

There is no one single root cause. But there is one single root instrument. It's not that hard to suss out, but good on you for figuring out the position of gun control proponents. Bonus points.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
70. Who knew.
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 03:24 PM
Oct 2015
But there is one single root instrument.


Theres only one instrument involved in suicides and murders?

Who knew.

Response to TeddyR (Reply #9)

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
23. Yes, waiting periods are the one column on the chart relevant to suicides.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:29 PM
Oct 2015

That's why the distinction between murders and suicides matters: for the most part, effective solutions to each problem will be very different. There are a few examples of crossover, like waiting periods. They're not that common.

Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #23)

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
35. No, not remove.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 03:05 PM
Oct 2015

Study each type separately, for the reason I mentioned previously: the causal factors behind each type are mostly different, and that means a different solution set. The steps most likely to reduce gun-related murder aren't going to be the same ones that reduce suicides, even those steps directly relating to access to guns. I think waiting periods might be a good example of an exception, of a step that could reduce both...but such "crossovers" are rare.

malaise

(267,808 posts)
36. It's like they miss the essential truth
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 03:11 PM
Oct 2015

The more guns are available the more people die from guns...like WTF!!!

TrollBuster9090

(5,953 posts)
76. Dude, you've been HAD by a "Chaffetz-Chart." GunFact.info is showing you "All Homicides"
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 04:29 PM
Oct 2015

They show us gun ownership vs. "all homicides," ignoring the fact that 60% of homicides in the United States are homicide by gun, compared to 3.9% of homicides by gun in Estonia, 1.7% in South Korea, 11% in Slovakia, and basically all of the other countries that are either thrown in or omitted in order to mess up the correlation between gun availability and gun homicide.

Dude, you've been had by a "Chaffetz-Chart"

Check the reliable information which this chart was creatively 'extracted' from:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

TrollBuster9090

(5,953 posts)
80. So what was your point?
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 06:51 PM
Oct 2015

I thought you posted the graph to counter Malaise's argument that

"The more guns are available the more people die from guns."


(The graph, in fact, doesn't do that. As you pointed out, it compares ALL homicides to the rate of gun ownership. But I fail to see why anybody would be interested in comparing the rate of gun ownership in South Korea to the number of people killed by being hit over the head with Hyundai parts. So, I can only conclude that the chart is deliberately meant to deceive people into thinking there's no correlation between gun ownership and gun homicides. At least in the developed world, anyway.)

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
83. The absence of guns is not the same as the absence of violence.
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 07:15 PM
Oct 2015

Taiwan and Korea have very low gun ownership yet significant violent crime rates. Some places have high gun ownership rates but low violent crime rates, i.e. Sweden. If the presence of gun were as direct a correlation to violence as offered this would not be the case.

Moreover, gun ownership has been increasing in the US while violent crime rates have been decreasing in direct contraction to the theory suggested by Controllers.

TrollBuster9090

(5,953 posts)
74. The two issues ARE related, at least on the small scale. Since most of the crackpots who carry out
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 04:06 PM
Oct 2015

..most of the crackpots who do the mass shootings are bent on suicide, and are just hoping to go out with a blaze of "glory." The mass shooters go in with the suicide by gun group (although they're obviously a very small minority of the suicide group, and are a completely different breed from the criminals and gangsters. Criminals and gangsters kill people, but always with the intention of surviving.

My first concern is getting the guns away from the criminals and gangsters. And honestly, the gun control people, with their quest for universal background checks for firearms sales of any kind, are the only ones who are proposing a realistic course of action to prevent criminals from getting guns.

We go through this every time there's a mass shooting.
1. People who are proposing sensible gun control laws that would prevent criminals from getting guns point to the mass shooting, and use it as a call to action on background checks.
2. The right wing crazies point out (accurately) that the crackpot got his guns had no criminal background, and therefore the proposed gun legislation wouldn't prevent mass shootings.
3. The call for legislation is therefore shouted down on those grounds.

We gun control people are just shooting ourselves in the foot (pun intended). We should be stressing the issue that we want background checks to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but NOT ordinary citizens.

underpants

(182,273 posts)
31. Thank you
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:49 PM
Oct 2015

I stated that WaPo bent backwards to give the President two pinoccchios but I didn't have the back up on that part of it. Now I do.

CajunBlazer

(5,648 posts)
50. Hmmmm......
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 09:51 PM
Oct 2015

Is it possible that if there wasn't a gun available when someone gets very depressed that the person might be less likely to commit suicide?

Isn't it possible that there weren't guns available when two people get very angry at each other that there would less killing in such situations?

Isn't it true that guns kept for self defense in home are more likely to be used to kill or injure an innocent people than threatening intruders?

Isn't it true that countries with stricter gun laws have less firearm fatalities?

Before you answer, don't bother, these are rhetorical questions. I have multiple statistics from multiple sources for each question. Essentially the answers bare out the old saying, freedoms always have costs", in this case human lives.

TrollBuster9090

(5,953 posts)
79. Guns tend to escalate, rather than diffuse aggressive situations. Does anybody really believe that
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 06:41 PM
Oct 2015
Does anybody really believe that a pathetic loser like George Zimmerman would have been going around CONFRONTING teenaged boys that he thought "didn't belong" in his neighborhood without the knowledge that he had a gun in his belt, and thought it made him invincible? Hell no. He would have done what he initially did....called the police....and that would have been the end of it. He would have stayed in his SUV, the police would have arrived and (probably) confirmed that Treyvon Martin was NOT a "punk" who was there to steal stuff, and Martin would still be alive, and Zimmerman wouldn't be an outcast to all but the moonshine crowd.

Does anybody believe that a middle aged computer programmer like Michael Dunn would have confronted a car full of teenaged African American boys over the music they were playing if HE hadn't had a gun stuffed down his pants which he believed made him invincible? Hell no. He'd have just muttered a few racist slurs to his girlfriend, driven off, and continued living in a gated community, and sending his kids to private schools where he doesn't have to SEE people of another color.

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
11. I question the validity of the information on this chart.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 12:54 PM
Oct 2015

It says that there no required permit to purshase nor is a background check is required to purchase a handgun in Minnesota. That is false. Both are required.

 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
40. You mean you question SOME of the information
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 03:49 PM
Oct 2015

A couple of errors don't invalidate the preponderance of correct information presented in graph form.

 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
64. Then we're done here
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 11:13 PM
Oct 2015

You identified a single state with an error, provided no link to prove that error, and then generalize from that alleged error that the entire chart is full of errors; I'm not going to do the research either because I believe the premise of the chart - it makes intuitive sense. Also the fact that some of the states which are clearly exceptions to the general rule (VT, NH) were not changed to fit the profile leads me to believe that the maker of the chart was honestly portraying facts.

 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
84. By your logic
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 07:28 PM
Oct 2015

You are a human being, therefore you have made some errors in life, therefore I should not believe anything you say.

Also, following your link I read that if you have a permit to carry, you don't need a separate permit to purchase, and this permit to carry is good for 5 years of unlimited purchases of firearms. So for 5 years there will be no backround check or permit to purchase a gun in MN, regardless of what may have changed unless the sheriff's office happens to catch it and revoke your permit to carry. That's an awfully long time IMO. It's possible that the person creating the chart interpreted this as not being specifically required to submit to a background check for each purchase nor specifically required to obtain a permit to purchase a gun if you already have a permit to carry.

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
86. Even with the permit to purchase they still do a NICS check.
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 10:44 PM
Oct 2015

So if someone was convicted of a felony or had a DV issue, they would be denied the purchase. That DV part of the law was passed on a bi-partisan vote last spring.

Comparing a piece of research with important details to a person's life is quite ridiculous.

 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
88. So is calling an entire piece of research invalid
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 11:21 PM
Oct 2015

Based on one fact in question. Clearly gun laws have helped where they have been put into effect.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
12. Most of those regulations wouldn't affect suicides.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 01:04 PM
Oct 2015

And those per-capita rates include suicides. Some of the worst rates are in states with particularly high suicide rates. A much more compelling case for the effectiveness of gun control regulations of those kinds in reducing gun deaths could be made by addressing only those deaths which the regulations can actually affect.

WestCoastLib

(442 posts)
27. Post#9 supports what I said.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:37 PM
Oct 2015

You are trying to untie suicides with murder. So, the statistics suggest that gun laws DO have an impact in preventing/enabling suicides by gun

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
32. I suspect waiting periods certainly do.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:50 PM
Oct 2015

The other columns? Highly unlikely. Concealed carry regulations, registration, etc., have no obvious relevance to suicide, I'd say.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
28. so you're arguing there's a high correlation between states
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:40 PM
Oct 2015

having lax gun laws and being miserable shitholes where people kill themselves to escape?

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
29. A lot of them are largely rural.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:46 PM
Oct 2015

To the best of my knowledge, places with larger numbers of people living in relative isolation tend to have higher suicide rates.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
33. Iowa, Nebraska, Vermont and New Hampshire are all rural states.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:51 PM
Oct 2015

Florida, Michigan, Nevada, not so rural (virtually everyone in NV lives in Reno or the Vegas area).

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
94. One other major fact is ignored in states that have the higher rates.
Thu Oct 8, 2015, 08:08 AM
Oct 2015

No way in hell will I mention what it is either.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
24. Wrong. Washington DC has a higher murder rate by far than any state
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:30 PM
Oct 2015

And their gun laws are among the strongest in the nation.

Gun murder rate per 100,000 in 2010

Washington DC 16.5
Louisiana 7.7
Missouri 5.4
Maryland 5.1
South Carolina 4.5
Delaware 4.2
Michigan 4.2




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

Vermont and New Hampshire have the lowest murder rate and some of the lightest gun laws.


Including suicides is intentionally misleading.

louis-t

(23,199 posts)
37. Uh, your first statement is incorrect. "By far" makes it more misleading.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 03:24 PM
Oct 2015

There are 8 states that have a rate that is equal to or greater than D. C. Read the chart.

louis-t

(23,199 posts)
44. Not according to the chart in the OP.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 08:33 PM
Oct 2015

The date says 2013, so different date. The 2013 chart certainly is more current than your numbers. Wikipedia can be altered, and it says the page was altered today. Hmmmm.

For your entertainment, here is an example of a good guy (girl) with a gun.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/10/06/cpl-holder-opens-fire-shoplifter-home-depot/73468588/

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
38. Which star on the American flag belongs to the 'State' of Washington DC?
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 03:27 PM
Oct 2015

How is suicide by gun not a gun-related death?

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
46. Suicide is not gun crime
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 08:41 PM
Oct 2015

If this is about gun crime, then we can talk about reducing crime.

Suicide is obviously a mental health issue. Adding guns to imply high crime statistics is disingenuous

DC is a special district that essentially functions like a state. It's a useful illustration that gun crime is mainly urban. Adding suicides, which could be committed by any other method, is a liar's tactic.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
49. Of course it's not. Why include it when you can leave people misinformed?
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 09:17 PM
Oct 2015

Sort it from gun crime, which has been declining for decades. The best way to manipulate the issue is to include suicides.

Basing one's argument on a lie... Well no wonder the gun control crowd is failing miserably.

 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
41. Pointing out NH and VT
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 03:53 PM
Oct 2015

Is essentially pointing out exceptions to the rule, as can be seen from the chart. Pointing out exceptions to a rule does not disprove the rule.

 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
63. Nobody?
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 11:07 PM
Oct 2015

Just like a gun is a quick, easy way to kill someone else that makes murder happen more often, it clearly makes it easier to kill yourself as well thus ensuring that it will happen more often. So speak for yourself because I'm not nobody.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
51. That will be ignored or rationalized by people that love their guns.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 09:54 PM
Oct 2015

You cannot have a conversation with fanatics.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
56. Yes I think they are scared of losing their Precious.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 10:08 PM
Oct 2015

It is like Stormfront barfed in DU GD!

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
57. Theres 'rates', and theres reality.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 10:09 PM
Oct 2015



Kindly explain why so much of this map - which shows actual gun violence - shows quite the opposite of what your chart claims to indicate?
 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
58. Hmmm. Maybe because it reflects the reality
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 10:27 PM
Oct 2015

of where people actually live? Higher numbers of residents will have higher numbers of "actual" gun violence, which doesn't say diddly about the rate.

Nice try.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
59. Hah.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 10:49 PM
Oct 2015
Hmmm. Maybe because it reflects the reality of where people actually live? Higher numbers of residents will have higher numbers of "actual" gun violence, which doesn't say diddly about the rate.


Thank you, that's exactly the answer I was looking for, as it is the correct one.

The OP is titled "Hey! Looky here! No connection between lax gun laws and gun related deaths".

The OP is NOT titled "Hey! Looky here! No connection between lax gun laws and gun related death rates".


The singular comment from the poster of the OP is:

The States With The Most Gun Laws See The Fewest Gun-Related Deaths


The comment by the poster of the OP makes it quite clear that the message he/she intends to convey is that states with the most gun laws have the fewest gun related deaths. The poster then posts up as evidence, a chart that measures rates, not deaths. The poster makes a claim using one metric, and in support posts a chart that uses another metric.

It was just as intellectually dishonest and intended to mislead in this incidence, as it has been every time it has been done.

Fact is, states with the most gun control, with few exceptions, have the most gun deaths, which dovetails with what you said about them also having the highest population, but it proves my point, and shows the OP as the disingenuous claptrap that it is.

Nice try.


Pfft. There was no try about it. The map I linked both measures in the metric that the OP uses in his/her claim, AND disproves his/her claim, although in fairness, you helped make my point.





 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
66. Despite the misleading title,
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 01:02 AM
Oct 2015

(which seems to be stem from the original article) the point of the chart was gun deaths per thousand, correlated with a given state's gun laws. So imo you are cleverly defeating a classic straw man. You remind me of the right-wingers who point to an overwhelmingly red map (based on counties' votes) as proof that the country is conservative, despite the fact that those huge red areas are places where nobody lives.

So, nice try.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
71. None of what you say changes the facts.
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 03:36 PM
Oct 2015

The States With The Most Gun Laws do not see the fewest gun related deaths, in fact, the generally see the most - in spite of their gun laws.

 

LannyDeVaney

(1,033 posts)
68. Won't matter...
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 10:10 AM
Oct 2015

nothing matters. Nothing makes a difference.

Too many folks addicted to their guns, and perfectly willing to wake up each day complicit to murder.

They are willing to accept thousands of deaths.

USA.

patsimp

(915 posts)
69. More facts for the Pro-Gun crowd
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 01:00 PM
Oct 2015

let me guess their argument -
if you remove the people who were actually killed by guns, then no one was killed by guns.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
81. Explain Washington.
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 07:02 PM
Oct 2015

A better correlation between suicide (which is what this chart primarily is) and states isn't gun law but standard of living.

States with poor economic prospects figure prominently at the bottom of the list. That they also feature Republican government and therefore the gun laws you'd expect from Republicans. Gun laws are a secondary correlate to republican government and resultant shitty standards of living.

RKBA is a prominent feature in Washington's constitution. But Democratic governance and a good economy is a prominent feature of the state too.

I don't have a problem with gun control in principle, but
a) I've not yet seen a specific proposal which would reduce the incidents about which we're in such outrage.
b) It is demonstrably an electoral loser.

PatrynXX

(5,668 posts)
85. have to cynically laugh on IA Vs MN
Wed Oct 7, 2015, 08:32 PM
Oct 2015

my pro gun brother hates MN because of their Strict Gun laws. if I look at that IA is stricter other than the waiting period I believe it stems from the fact MN doesn't recognize IA's concealed weapons permit. well apply up there too States rights. = Conservatives

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