aren't the only native population in Australia.

As if the aborigines were not there first.

Even my parents, who considered themselves hippies in the 60's, have become sympathetic to some of his ideas.
We have heated debates over dinner about the refugee crisis and it's apparent that many people, conservatives and progressives alike, are scarred and ill advised.

The basic premise: Islam is an evil religion and there are ten thousands jihaddis on Europe's doorstep waiting to strike.
Imagine what would happen if ISIS starts attacking targets in Europe. It won't be long before the population will turn against innocent immigrants and the results will be catastrophic.

Fueling Islamophobia does not undermine ISIS, but supports it's objectives.

We'd have no trouble condemning Islamic ideas if they happened to be espoused by extremist Christians instead.

Most Muslims are good people as are most Christians. Islam and/or Christianity are not the problem. The problem is those flawed fanatics who profess to act on its behalf.

Considering an entire group of people as 'problematic' is itself problematic.

I agree with you, though: the fact is that most Christians and Muslims *are* good people, but that's despite of, not because of, what their holy books say. If you doubt this, I encourage you to read the Bible and the Koran, which are both manuals for conquest and genocide. Religion is very much a problem.

We had centuries of pushback against Christianity and the Enlightenment before you could speak your mind without being locked up in Europe, and Islam's never gone through that.

Belief systems can be problematic, and there's nothing wrong with saying so.

Islam is incompatible with western progressive ideals. There is no getting around that fact. It is not racist to say so.

Since you've got selective blindness to how regressive certain religions are on some parts of the Left, and vast masses of xenophobic right-wingers who use equally selective criticism of religion as a shield for racism, war, and hating all immigrants.

Between two sides trying to polarize the debate into "MUSLIMS: BAD OR NOT", a nuanced criticism of all religion makes you plenty of enemies...

I live in Minneapolis. Over the last 35 years we have had many immigrants from diverse places in the world - Mexico/Central America, Vietnam and Cambodia, and Somalia.

The Latinos and Southeast Asians assimilated to American cultural norms with amazing speed, and those who were born here are as all-American as Beaver Cleaver or Theo Huxtable. Sure, grandma and grandpa still speak the language of the old country, as do some of the kids, and traditional holidays are still celebrated (just like the Swedes and Norwegians who have been here for 150 years). But they wanted to be a part of the American social fabric, and so they became. And praise be to the FSM for the wonderful food they brought with them.

The Somalis are not doing what their predecessors did, at all. In diametric opposition to the Latino and Asian immigrants, they want to bring "there" (Somalia) here, in toto including traditional/fundamentalist Islam, which is in no way compatible with modern views of the equality of ALL people, not just men, before the law and in everyday society. They bring the hijab, they bring women sitting at separate tables even in Starbucks, they show no desire to become a part of the larger culture. The mindset seems to be that everyone else has to accommodate them, with no reciprocal accommodation of US culture on their part. I see this virtually every day, so spare me your snarky comments.

I can only imagine the problems that are arising in Germany and the rest of Europe. Unless people decide to adapt to and adopt the deep-rooted cultural norms of their new country, it cannot end well.

When in Rome do as the Romans do is still timely and wise advice.

Arab Americans. I meet Palestinians and Jordanians in the US all the time. They're just like everyone else. If anything, Muslims in America are mainly a huge success story. With about four million Muslims, they've assimilated pretty well. They're educated. It was so hard to radicalize them that the 9/11 terrorist attacks were carried out by Saudi students, in a country with millions of American Muslims.

Pakistanis do well, too. I think just about every budget hotel in America is Pakistani owned.

Another counter-example: Turkish people in Germany. Over a million Muslim Turks, often from the poorest, most religious parts of Turkey, came to Germany to work in the 70's. And they've assimilated, by all accounts, reasonably well. There have been ZERO terrorist attacks.

Yeah, Somalians are different, and they haven't assimilated well anywhere, but they aren't all Muslims, not by a long shot.

There's nothing INHERENT in Islam that means assimilation can't happen. I think a lot of it is just down to wealth and specific national culture. And how they're treated when they arrive.

This might be heresy on a left-wing site, but I think part of the reason European Muslims haven't assimilated so well is the relatively generous welfare. It's hard to sit around all day reading a Koran and getting pissed off about foreign policy if you have to work in order not to starve.

Somalis and Arab-Americans are very different subsets of Muslims. And educated Muslims from everywhere - I've been seen by very good doctors who were Muslims on a couple of occasions, one of whom was a woman - seem to have zero problems with American cultural norms.

But the basic tenets of Islam are unquestionably very much at odds with those of modern secular societies. I think many well-educated Muslims and those who really do want to adopt a new country become "cafeteria Muslims" in the manner of many Catholics.

You have to want to fit in to the culture, and its basic norms, of the country to which you move. That's the real issue, and those who do have no problems.

dominant culture to be received well. Almost all of our immigrant ancestors, while holding on to certain cultural tradition, bent over backwards to become Americans first. For some reason, immigrants from Muslim countries have no respect for the laws and traditions of the host country. Even when the younger generations try to adapt, the older generations punish them for adopting western ways. I think it's even more of a problem in Europe than it is here.

the Somalis and many other Muslim immigrants.

And "arrogance" is exactly the right word. Overweening arrogance. The Latino, Vietnamese and Hmong/Khmer kids Americanized immediately and fit in very quickly. The Somalis seem dead set against any kind of compromise with US cultural norms, including the one about not screaming every conversation in a coffee shop at the top of their lungs. I wish to hell they would leave. I am sure some are cool people who want to be a part of this culture rather than completely separate and apart from it, but they are few and far between.

Here's a very short video you should watch. It was made during an Islamic conference in Norway, although for some reason this clip at least is helpfully in English:

I would say the same about any other religion. There are evil interpretations and people in each and and many people in all of them who are not evil people and don't believe in the evil interpretations that some others do.

But do NOT want to accept these facts as true. Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens and others have made this all plain as a pikestaff, but it cannot be repeated often enough.

Excellent post and welcome to DU!

Just saying.

I'm gay, and happen to live around a lot of Muslims.

Honestly, they don't give a shit about two guys walking around holding hands. You'd think if it's in the Koran they would and all, but they just don't.

I would say that it's more nuanced than you're letting on. Yes, Islam is literalist, and that is a problem, but it's also often pluralist. Muslims lived alongside other religions for thousands of years, which Christians didn't. To a Muslim, Christians and Jews are all people of the book, and their beliefs should be respected.

The only really obnoxious proselytism I've encountered has been Christians, who preach their bullshit all the damn time and really want others to convert. Muslims just don't seem to do that.

The only people who've ever given me grief about being gay have been Christians, both black and white. African and Carribean Christians are particularly homophobic.

My criticism of Islam is that it's insular, discriminates within the community, and intolerant to some very, very specific forms of provocation from outsiders (like drawing Muhammed; basically, blasphemy). It doesn't work well with an ethic of free speech. But mostly, if you live around Muslims, they're a lot better than Christians from equivalently developed nations.

Just my extra bit of nuance, just to muddy the waters.

Criticism on Islam or any other religion or ideology is justified.
But you have to be specific and can only judge or condemn individuals by their actions.
That's the bottom line. Holding a group or culture responsible because of certain individuals or its control structures is dangerous and irresponsible.

Does that not include the concepts of patriarchy and white privilege, among others?

that all white males are always responsible for the failings of American society. Collective guilt now and forever is the marching song of many.

And the same with patriarchy and males. It seems hard to square this with being against collective responsibility.

What does it mean to be in favor of collective responsibility and what are the implications?

doesn't it....

Fundies of all stripes either need to embrace a secular society or stay out of it. It's not going to be the other way around-

I was wondering about that. Much like David Dukkke couldn't get one for the UK.

called the Diffies because it would be a huge success worldwide now .

yeah the "Difficult " transportation has made it easier for people to be more devolved .

should have our own country. Socializing would be greatly devalued and never imposed on anyone,, logic and reason would be highly honored and serve as the basis of governance, and extroverts would be banished, the loudest ones first.