General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe person most responsible for the attack in Brussels is....
Dick Cheney.
He was the voice and the leader of the invasion of Iraq in 2003.
It was that invasion, regardless of what the right-wing might say, that caused the disintegration that we see in the Middle East today.
It is that disintegration that created ISIS.
It is that disintegration that caused ISIS to move its terrorist actions to Europe.
It doesn't matter if Obama has been in office 7 years or if he has been in office 70 years, the primary cause of all of this death and destruction is Dick Cheney.
and it doesn't matter if Obama is now the President.
wouldsman
(94 posts)I think Kissinger and the philosophies he pushed on the American foreign policy machine rates as equally responsible. Two very dreadful men.
fasttense
(17,301 posts)Without the Supreme Court's help, Cheney could never have done what he did.
Jeffersons Ghost
(15,235 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)outside of Iraq. Unfortunately, Clinton and Petraeus created new hornet nests and armed them across the MENA region.
ISIS may have originated in Iraq, but it was a mere footnote until the US joined its regional "allies" in setting up, funding, and transporting the flow of heavy arms and Jihadi fighters out of Libya into Syria, and from its major base in Syria outward to Europe and much of the rest of the world, including cells and recruits inside the US.
That's an established fact, and the former Secretary of State and CIA Director should be held accountable for pushing that policy against Obama's better judgement with foreseeable catastrophic results.
That's the bigger picture that those who want to simply isolate the attacks down to deranged individuals of Mideastern origin. The policy of systematic regime change carried out by key neoconservatives within multiple US Administrations is the major cause of these terrorist attacks.
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)...who ever set off the bombs and whoever helped build them.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)Terrorist attacks are only the fault of the people that commit them. As much as I'd like to blame Cheney or Bush or Rice...they didn't do this.
If we want to take that tack, history has long coat-tails...much like the argument that Gavrilo Princep is responsible for two World Wars, the Holocaust and the Cold War. If he hadn't shot Archduke Ferdinand and Princess Sophie, about 90% of the major conflicts of the 20th century never occur. While it's easy to tar individuals for unforeseen consequences of their actions, it's a cop-out.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)People are responsible for their own actions. I blame the terrorist attacks on the terrorists.
The OP is excusing them and trying to shift blame elsewhere.
Jitter65
(3,089 posts)KansDem
(28,498 posts)So when will charges be brought against Bush et al for their murderous war-mongering? They lied us into war in Iraq, so why are they still walking free?
When will they be held "responsible for their own actions?"
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)But the OP was about the blame for the terrorist attacks.
Start a topic on the Bush wars and who is to blame, and I'll point the finger at Bush right away.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)It's an acknowledgment of cause and effect, the long arm of history, and the urgent need for people, particularly leaders, to think about the ramifications of any action in the long term.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,063 posts)I hate Cheney with a passion but let's not make excuses for murderers.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)You are correct. And proximally you are correct.
In the much longer view of history it is far more complex than just Chenney as the OP wrote. Or the Paris Conference of 1917, which is quite brutally honest part of the answer. One the bombers were not acting on.
The bombers were acting, and they are responsible, on hate and fear from their present lives. But if we are to solve this, not today or tomorrow incidentally, we all need to confront the biases we all hold, colonialism and empire building. The OP is just blaming the latest failed colonial project.
By the way this does not absolve the bombers. And complexity is not an Anerican thing. I understand
Duval
(4,280 posts)annabanana
(52,791 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Jeffersons Ghost
(15,235 posts)[the NSA said fuck-off Chinese satellite punks]
Z_California
(650 posts)to ignore the root cause is to continue this pattern of assigning responsibility to individuals and moving on from attack to attack much like assigning responsibility to mass shooter lone wolves and moving on from slaughter to slaughter right here in the ol US of A.
Our policy of death and destruction in the Middle East motivates those responsible and creates and accepting environment for them back at home.
No, Cheney isn't responsible for this particular attack, but it could be that if Cheney never existed this attack may have never happened.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)But I think we forget Dick Cheney's evil antics, so it is well worth reminding ourselves and refreshing our memories!
LS_Editor
(893 posts)dlwickham
(3,316 posts)Exactly right
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)gabeana
(3,166 posts)wow what a simple world view
noting happens in a vacuum
ever hear of cause and effect?
Sometimes Dems are so week, can't call it for what it is
EX500rider
(10,517 posts).....the person who commits a horrible crime is always the one most responsible.
gabeana
(3,166 posts)at all, bad foreign policy has bearing is that what you are saying?
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)And no ones forces people to go blow themselves up around innocent people.
And parts of the Islamic world were getting more radical with or with out Bush/Cheney.
If I was going to "blame" a countries foreign policy I would be blaming Saudi Arabia for spreading their fundamentalists Wahhabism.
gabeana
(3,166 posts)Things happen in a vacuum with you, events just arise out of thin air
no depth to your analysis
black and white view
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)The billions they make selling oil are what funds the spread of fundamental Islam.
mahatmakanejeeves
(56,884 posts)kentuck, please get over the Cheney Derangement Syndrome. It's not helping.
Waldorf
(654 posts)busterbrown
(8,515 posts)After all killing as many as 600,000 civilians, illegally torturing thousands of Iraqi Citizens and all because of a lie about weapons of mass destruction.. You are full of hypocrisy..unless you agree with my statement.
ghostsinthemachine
(3,569 posts)Dick
Cheney?
Yavin4
(35,354 posts)The lesson here is, Don't be a Dick.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Absolving the terrorists for their terrorist acts is despicable.
kentuck
(110,947 posts)the person "most responsible" does not absolve anyone of their actions. He only created the conditions for it to happen. Without the invasion of Iraq, it is doubtful this would ever have happened.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)if there was no Saddam, there would have been no bushite invasion...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)In fact your response literally is the definition of absolving, which means to release a person from responsibility.
It is completely ridiculous to claim that Dick Cheney is the most responsible for what happened in Brussels today.
Why not say that Saddam Hussein is most responsible for the attacks? After all, if it wasn't for him, then the US would not have invaded Iraq and then none of this would've happened according to your construct.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)part in this.
And it's a damn fine thing to say. I agree.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)3000 on 9/11/2001 alone.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)that we live in a terrorist Country... Just remember the terror we imposed on the Iraqi citizens based on a lie.. This! Remember?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_and_awe
DustyJoe
(849 posts)simple .....
muhammed
Angel Martin
(942 posts)busterbrown
(8,515 posts)for the terror we imposed on Iraq is
Simple
God..
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)Man made God in his own image, not the other way around.
Z_California
(650 posts)Is that one on Jesus?
TheCowsCameHome
(40,161 posts)You are truly a decent person.
Response to kentuck (Original post)
Post removed
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)It's convenient to place blame on Gavrilo Princip for World War 1, and I imagine many grade-school text books do just that. However, as adults, we are compelled by accuracy to look at all causes (rather than blame) and weigh them against each other within the full historical context.
Overly complex alliance systems, imperialism, nationalism, arms races, decline of some nation states and the rise of others, inconsistency of national alignments, resource allocation, etc. are all part and parcel of the causes leading to that conflict (and ironically enough, this current conflict as well), and all aspects share guilt-- even the benign ones.
How we weigh that guilt will come much later-- in history books written far in the future, in which objectivity is more assured than the current nationalism, politicism, and religions (and a host of other fictional constructs we all of us predicate our daily decisions upon) we are currently subject to.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I honestly do
trotsky
(49,533 posts)but I am 100% in agreement with you, nadinbrzezinski.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)We all know it's not that simple.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I would put the blame on the bombmaker and the one that blew himself up detonating it. Why do so many on DU make excuses for terrorists?
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I remember the Munich Olympics, and that was long before Bush and his henchmen.
Yes, Bush has blood on his hands.
However, Obama, with his drone war, has probably just as much blood on his.
Terrorism has been around for a long time. I was a kid in the 70s and I flew a lot in those days with my parents. There were a lot of hijackings in that decade.
I became a profiler at an early age.
Why the pretending that Islamic terrorism is something new? Also the complete ignoring of the fact if the Palestinians had taken the state they were offered in 1947 instead of going to war, they would be much better off today. How many do-overs does a group get?
cwydro
(51,308 posts)This nonsense has been going on before any of us were born.
Islamic terrorism is a real threat, and I find it amazing that anyone here tries to make excuses for it.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)It's why the left has the reputation for being weak on defense. If they can't blame the west or Israel for a problem, it's like it doesn't exist.
melman
(7,681 posts)In another thread they were saying this has nothing to do with refugees and that these guys were likely born and raised in Belgium.
So if they are Belgians living in Belgium, what the fuck does this have to do with Dick Cheney and Iraq?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)but I'm sure they'll find a way to make it the fault of the west....or Israel. Those are the only guns in their arsenal.
RobinA
(9,874 posts)the US is responsible for all geopolitical evil in the world today. We invented war 200 years ago and it's been nothing but America-inspired trouble ever since. The ME would be a calm desert paradise if it weren't for us. Talk about American exceptionalism! WE are the only ones who can cause trouble. With maybe some input from western Europe, who invented colonialism and was its sole practitioner.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)and cheapens every single argument they could actually make that would be consistent and right on the money. It makes their opinions on the matter worthless.
DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)But I bet most here ignore that.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)Dont we? Remember Shock and Awe and the word Torture.. and the killing of several hundred thousand civilians? ........Were not making excuses for these fanatics, rather we are trying to gather the whys of such despicable events ..
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)was around LONG before bush was selected President. Or do you not remember Munich? We wont even get into the Sunni/Shia divide that has a VERY long history of violence.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)Wasnt it?...Iran ( overthrow of an elected govt) South America, Supporting Right Wing Terrorists dictators,
The Raping of economies in South America.. And of course the most recent Terrorist Action in Iraq: The murdering of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians and torturing thousands all based on a freaking lie.
elljay
(1,178 posts)we can keep going back and back into history and we will see more of the same all over the world. We are often not a nice species.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)Poverty breeds crime.. Money begets tyrants...
madokie
(51,076 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)yes, the murderers are the most to blame then there are the sick, twisted enablers like cheney.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)davidn3600
(6,342 posts)As much as I hate to sound like I'm defending GWB, he's not the only reason Islamic terrorism exists.
This is a very old problem.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)And most of we deal with today stems from that stupid decision.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)has had a huge effect on the current horrible events in the middle east, which has now escalated to Western Europe.. Yea, Hundreds of thousands of Innocent Civilians murdered by our lies..
GeorgeGist
(25,294 posts)how soon we forget who was President.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)LiberalArkie
(15,686 posts)Grenada again?
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)It will continue for decades to come, unfortunately.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)have no interest in the consequences of our illegal invasion of Iraq..
Remember Shock and Awe?
Think that didnt bring about terror into the Iraqi population?
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)I don't remember anyone at DU supporting it then, though. And it seemed like what has been the outcome was "predicted" by the masses at DU. Of course, that really wasn't hard for anyone to see, outside of the White House and other halls of power, anyway.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)do not wish to talk about the devastating effects, our invasion of Iraq has had on the entire Middle East and now Western Europe..
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)We all have our defense mechanisms. It could be people who were just not old enough at the time to understand the reality, or....
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)The uncanny ability to wash one's hands of any misdeeds committed by our government. Even though the war created a bunch of new terrorists, it's still their fault alone. The war was "bad," but it is totally divorced from the horror it continues to create. That's why Hillary can claim her vote was a "mistake," and many accept that as a rationsl, reasonable comment.
pampango
(24,692 posts)did not kill innocent civilians in Brussels to teach Bush a lesson.
scscholar
(2,902 posts)He called for an attack in Brussels.
ladjf
(17,320 posts)humbled_opinion
(4,423 posts)We were not in Iraq prior to 9/11/01, except for no fly zone, there is a much deeper cause and effect here than one bad VP.
Response to kentuck (Original post)
DUbeornot2be This message was self-deleted by its author.
valerief
(53,235 posts)that war is a racket--a big money-making racket.
Response to kentuck (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
rafeh1
(385 posts)But saddam kept the crazies like isis in check.
Murdering saddam killing million of iraqis and placing iraq in chaos is a clear war crime forwhixh cheney should answer
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)And his evil brats would have turned on each other, with the survivor severely weakened. With Saudi Arabia AND Iran wanting them gone, it was only a matter of time before they were gone.
The Hussein dynasty in Iraq had a short shelf life. With or without the invasion of Iraq, the rise of modern Islamic militancy has been underway since the early part of the 20th Century.
elleng
(130,126 posts)but he's #1 on my 'hate' list.
thesquanderer
(11,953 posts)meaculpa2011
(918 posts)He declared himself King in 1794 BC and attacked the neighboring Assyrians.
After that, all of this trouble became inevitable.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)Could the Brussel's attack not be for the exact same reason as the 9/11/2001 attacks? To commit terror?
lark
(22,993 posts)They conspired to create that war which caused the middle east chaos.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)"Dick Cheney was the worst President of mylife time."
The people who are responsible for the bombing are the terrorists who exploded them.
MowCowWhoHow III
(2,103 posts)TipTok
(2,474 posts)Anything to deflect responsibility from the folks who actually did it.
Not even responsible as a 3rd or 4th order effect but the person most responsible? Give me a break.