Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:39 PM Mar 2016

Re:Brussels, it makes no sense to claim "Islam is a religion of peace"

I understand religion has a specific forum, but I am reacting to a post here, in 'General Discussion', which claimed re:Brussels that "Islam is a religion of peace"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7705340

So, as the board rules mention that "Open discussion of religion is permitted during very high-profile news events which are heavily covered across all newsmedia.", without any animus towards Muslims, I wish to just simply state why it is wrong to claim that "Islam is a religion of peace", especially in context.

First, define Islam? It's impossible. (*)
- The texts are unreliable and contradictory. Muhammad's biographies and hadiths were written about two centuries after Muhammad. The Quran contradicts itself on key tenets of doctrine (what Adam was made of, how to deal with unbelievers, etc)
- the interpretation of the texts are contradictory: from peaceful Sufis to ISIS, from gay Muslim centers to the hanging of gays in the name of Islam.

Second, can Islam be decreed peaceful?
- part of the texts incite to violence: some Quran verses and hadiths
- the way a plurality of Muslims understand Islam is not peaceful: half of the world Muslims believe their religion calls them to stone adulterers. Can this be called peaceful?

Third, in the context of Brussels, I understand part of the reason people would want to make that claim: to shield innocent Muslims from people who would advocate a blanket indiscriminate backlash. But misleading sentences do more harm than good, especially when they appear to want to exonerate an ideology from its harmful consequences.
Because the motivation of the Brussels attackers IS Islam. Their ISIS brand of Islam (*).

Wrong diagnostics do not help to find solutions. And the context of a terror attack, rushing to issue a blanket statement that "Islam is peaceful" can come across as rather insensitive.
I cringed when I saw halfwit GW say just that just after 9/11.

Peace to all.

117 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Re:Brussels, it makes no sense to claim "Islam is a religion of peace" (Original Post) Albertoo Mar 2016 OP
As long as you are so expert catnhatnh Mar 2016 #1
Christianity doesn't make sense either, but it's a distraction from my OP Albertoo Mar 2016 #3
Then admit that the church of the majority of western civilization catnhatnh Mar 2016 #10
What has it got to do with my OP? And yes, the Torah's god is "Lord God All-Smitey" Albertoo Mar 2016 #12
I will agree catnhatnh Mar 2016 #14
We agree there is no "religion of peace"*, not that religion doesn't cause violence Albertoo Mar 2016 #18
Yes catnhatnh Mar 2016 #19
No Albertoo Mar 2016 #21
Your OP is a stinking pile catnhatnh Mar 2016 #23
Your post #23 is easy to prove wrong, but I will stay polite Albertoo Mar 2016 #24
Bullshit catnhatnh Mar 2016 #25
My OP is a reaction to what I read, is it so difficult to understand? Albertoo Mar 2016 #27
My last reply will be this catnhatnh Mar 2016 #31
I think intra-religion 'troubles' are the epitome of childishness Albertoo Mar 2016 #33
Post removed Post removed Mar 2016 #34
Your coarse language aside, you are off topic Albertoo Mar 2016 #35
Post removed Post removed Mar 2016 #37
One meets no sweeter debater than you Albertoo Mar 2016 #38
That was an epic meltdown. MowCowWhoHow III Mar 2016 #55
By who? Albertoo Mar 2016 #65
By catnhatnh MowCowWhoHow III Mar 2016 #71
Oh, OK Albertoo Mar 2016 #75
Pretty good sign someone has lost the argument when they start cursing you. cwydro Mar 2016 #64
Yup. Sadly. Albertoo Mar 2016 #66
Saudi blsphemy laws are a method of controlling a population Scootaloo Mar 2016 #43
Look, I never denied there are political wheels within the religious wheels Albertoo Mar 2016 #45
This message was self-deleted by its author Marr Mar 2016 #105
You are very mistaken on the difference between Catholics and Protestants. Coventina Mar 2016 #87
The West as a while is the cause. AngryAmish Mar 2016 #54
The West caused the invasion of the Iberic peninsula in 711CE? Albertoo Mar 2016 #67
What an odd claim. procon Mar 2016 #86
Uh? Then answer the question of the OP Albertoo Mar 2016 #116
Both Islam and Christianity are awful and ridiculous and moronic and harmful. Arugula Latte Mar 2016 #13
Amen Albertoo Mar 2016 #68
It's all regressive violence inducing bullshit... TipTok Mar 2016 #100
Well that didn't take long.....nt clarice Mar 2016 #57
"Define Islam" -- okay. Herman4747 Mar 2016 #2
You can't even say that Albertoo Mar 2016 #4
Not in having his imaginary god dictate the Quran to him Herman4747 Mar 2016 #6
Show me the original Quran Albertoo Mar 2016 #8
I think you are on the wrong website. Odin2005 Mar 2016 #5
LOL Define islamophobia and show me in what it applies to me Albertoo Mar 2016 #7
all of it is sheer nuttery Skittles Mar 2016 #40
Seriously... procon Mar 2016 #90
So, is "bigotry" against Republicanism and Conservatism also not a liberal value? Arugula Latte Mar 2016 #15
Why is criticizing Islam "bigotry," but criticizing Christianity is ok? Oneironaut Mar 2016 #50
Yep get the red out Mar 2016 #89
Neither is blowing people up.nt clarice Mar 2016 #56
And the Christian Bible and Jewish Torah make sense? mwooldri Mar 2016 #9
No, they don't, but it's off topic Albertoo Mar 2016 #11
A caveat wouldn't weaken your point Nevernose Mar 2016 #16
A fair point, but.. Albertoo Mar 2016 #22
The bible contradicts itself. Get over it. peace13 Mar 2016 #17
Do I care about the Bible? And you are confusing Islam and Muslims. Albertoo Mar 2016 #20
I know right Ford F-150 Mar 2016 #46
Religions are defined by the people who practice them Scootaloo Mar 2016 #26
And "faith" in evidence-less nonsense is lauded as a virtue in this country and others. Arugula Latte Mar 2016 #28
It helps to understand religion from a biological standpoint Scootaloo Mar 2016 #41
Well written Albertoo Mar 2016 #70
Probably several books, over a long period of time Scootaloo Mar 2016 #93
I actually note down rare words Albertoo Mar 2016 #94
+1 . . . . . n/t annabanana Mar 2016 #92
Whatever the origin of superstition and religious beliefs, Arugula Latte Mar 2016 #117
Not only. Texts also have influence. Albertoo Mar 2016 #29
And yet concentration camps predate Mein Kampf. Scootaloo Mar 2016 #36
Honestly, if Paddington inspires you to open a concentration camp,.. Albertoo Mar 2016 #39
It's not INSPIRATION, that's my point Scootaloo Mar 2016 #42
Can we agree it can be justification, but not always? Albertoo Mar 2016 #44
i just wanna say that i'm enjoying your thread and redruddyred Mar 2016 #30
Thanks Albertoo Mar 2016 #32
Is is Islam or is it the Middle East? donna123 Mar 2016 #47
It may be Europe. The radicalization of young Muslims occurs in prisons & ghettos, not mosques Bucky Mar 2016 #62
I would be interested in opinion polling fundamentalist muslims Quantess Mar 2016 #48
... because some Muslims are very violent? Is that the kind of extrapolation that the far-right does pampango Mar 2016 #49
I don't think religion My Good Babushka Mar 2016 #51
All religions have blood on their hands when looked at from the outside. hobbit709 Mar 2016 #52
I agree with you completely get the red out Mar 2016 #53
Agreed. But worldwide, Islamic terrorism will be more prevalent in the ST Albertoo Mar 2016 #74
I agree with that also get the red out Mar 2016 #88
Fuuuccckk that noise. giftedgirl77 Mar 2016 #58
Does this man know anything about Islam? snooper2 Mar 2016 #69
Wait, what there's psychos in every religion? giftedgirl77 Mar 2016 #72
That's one person treestar Mar 2016 #104
I'm guessing you are an expert on Islam Bonx Mar 2016 #73
My fiancée is Muslim, born in Pakistan & moved here at 17. giftedgirl77 Mar 2016 #78
i didn't see any pitchforks in the OP, and happen to agree with it. Bonx Mar 2016 #80
Not surprised. giftedgirl77 Mar 2016 #81
Cognizance of something can cause rational fear. Bonx Mar 2016 #82
Post removed Post removed Mar 2016 #83
Thank you for inaccurate ad hominem reply. Bonx Mar 2016 #85
Thanks Albertoo Mar 2016 #96
wanna bet? Albertoo Mar 2016 #95
Do you realize that you would have to actually read the Koran in order to criticize it? Hereiam2005 Mar 2016 #59
Islam is not just the Quran; there are the Hadith to consider too muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #91
Some people accept Hadiths, some don't. It's like there are some who take the Old Testament Hereiam2005 Mar 2016 #110
No, it's not like whether the OT is taken literally muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #112
I read the Quran at least twice Albertoo Mar 2016 #98
You still have zero idea about Islam as a religion. Hereiam2005 Mar 2016 #111
LOL I can prove a better understanding of Islam than yours Albertoo Mar 2016 #114
Can't we just say it's all crazy? Lobo27 Mar 2016 #60
Islam is not a religion of peace and that's why it's so hard for muslim scholars to denounce ISIS. DetlefK Mar 2016 #61
Has scientific discourse declared nuclear weapons as right or wrong? stone space Mar 2016 #79
What do you mean by "nuclear weapons"? DetlefK Mar 2016 #84
Spot on. nt. Albertoo Mar 2016 #99
What you have with DAESH DemonGoddess Mar 2016 #63
No Abrahamic religion is a "religion of peace" brooklynite Mar 2016 #76
True. Albertoo Mar 2016 #77
Radical Islam is to Fundamentalist Christianity as Peaceful Islam is to Peaceful Christianity. Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #97
You are right, but it's not the issue of the OP Albertoo Mar 2016 #102
If this world is created in gods image then gods image in this world is peaceful and violent. Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #106
Well, if any "perfect god" created this world and any of the "holy books" Albertoo Mar 2016 #108
What a strange trip it is! Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #109
Religions divide. None are peaceful. Only through the elimination of religion can valerief Mar 2016 #101
Amen Albertoo Mar 2016 #103
Some are peaceful. Marr Mar 2016 #107
The hate in this thread is something I expect out of Freeperland, not DU. Odin2005 Mar 2016 #113
So criticizing religion in a reasoned way is hate? Albertoo Mar 2016 #115

catnhatnh

(8,976 posts)
1. As long as you are so expert
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:55 PM
Mar 2016

why not explain contradictions in the bible or just award Islam four Pinocchios and move on??? Remember that by Christian doctrine Jesus Christ is the "Prince of Peace" which makes his daddy (God) the King of Peace and he was the bastard that went all fire and brimstone smiting every fucking unbeliever in sight.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
3. Christianity doesn't make sense either, but it's a distraction from my OP
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:00 PM
Mar 2016

From gay bishops to bishops supporting kill-the-gays laws in Africa, to St Paul condoning slavery, Christianity is chock-a-block with its dose of contradictions and violence.

But what has it got to do with my contention? Two wrongs don't make a right.

catnhatnh

(8,976 posts)
10. Then admit that the church of the majority of western civilization
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:11 PM
Mar 2016

is best described as worshiping their "Lord God All-Smitey". If you accept both religious precepts encourage violence you cannot then blame just one where outcomes are perceived differently. Now if you would accept that our military moves over the last decade or so could be perceived as provocative you might consider a different motive for a lack of peace...If you collaterally bombed my children to death, do you think I would suffer you to live a happy secure lifestyle??

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
12. What has it got to do with my OP? And yes, the Torah's god is "Lord God All-Smitey"
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:16 PM
Mar 2016

But my post is not about the Torah, or the collateral damage of the inane war of GW in Iraq.

My point is simple, and I wish we stayed on topic: do you agree, especially when it's written on the day of the Brussels attacks, that there is no justification to claim that Islam is peace?

catnhatnh

(8,976 posts)
14. I will agree
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:23 PM
Mar 2016

If you will stipulate there is NO major western "religion of peace" and that therefore your entire post is moot. My point is that a causal factor religion itself is a non-starter. Crazy hate dressed in a tuxedo is still crazy hate.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
18. We agree there is no "religion of peace"*, not that religion doesn't cause violence
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:35 PM
Mar 2016

The Abrahamic religions, Hinduism are not religions of peace. Buddhism, maybe?

But I firmly disagree with your other sentence:

My point is that a causal factor religion itself is a non-starter.

Try blasphemy in Saudi Arabia. Religion will be the causal factor in the violence you will suffer.

catnhatnh

(8,976 posts)
19. Yes
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:39 PM
Mar 2016

But your construct involves Belgium as the nexus of violence and I assure you blasphemy is a red herring in your argument of causation.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
21. No
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:42 PM
Mar 2016

Since you mention Belgium and "argument of causation", refer to the third point of my OP about Islam: the violence in Brussels is directly caused by the interpretation of Islam by the supporters of ISIS. As to know whether their interpretation of that ideology of Islam is correct or not, refer to the OP's point one: nobody knows.

catnhatnh

(8,976 posts)
23. Your OP is a stinking pile
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:05 AM
Mar 2016

Much of the middle east is a charnel house and the west as a whole is the cause. We first drew arbitrary national lines and then after various systems became established,when cheap oil became our goal, almost whimsically we destabilized them.Having spread chaos we then almost as randomly armed factions until those most non-political were driven mad. Asymmetric war is the sole option of those aggrieved by our actions and suicide bombing has long been a force multiplier. The purpose of terrorism is to terrorize. Belgium was a (relatively) soft target. I have no easy answer but I assure you that a mere religion didn't cause this nor is it's denigration any helpful thing.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
24. Your post #23 is easy to prove wrong, but I will stay polite
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:18 AM
Mar 2016

You mention Brussels is retaliation. Yes, retaliation for attacks on ISIS. ISIS is religiously motivated. It defines their platform: islamic state. Religion caused Brussels.

Take Charlie Hebdo in Paris: shooters kill people for drawing cartoons. Was it the Middle East and oil or was it religiously motivated? Religion caused Charlie Hebdo.

Back to my OP: it is wrong and inflammatory to say Islam is a religion of peace.
Abrahamic religions are not peaceful.

catnhatnh

(8,976 posts)
25. Bullshit
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:20 AM
Mar 2016

We provoked and caused the western world to be a target. Your original thesis NEVER included other religions.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
27. My OP is a reaction to what I read, is it so difficult to understand?
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:25 AM
Mar 2016

The sentence I reacted to was about Islam in the context of Brussels. Period.

In a counter-generalization of my OP, you claimed religions did not cause violence.
I gave you examples: blasphemy in Saudi Arabia, Charlie Hebdo,
but you never acknowledge proofs that religion does directly inspire gratuitous violence.

So be it.

catnhatnh

(8,976 posts)
31. My last reply will be this
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:36 AM
Mar 2016

I was born Irish Catholic-the religious difference between me and any protestant involves how many times in a Mass one must genuflect. Do you really believe the "Troubles" and hunger strikes to the death were over that-or just like this-over past actions perceived as injustices and then "justified" by religion?

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
33. I think intra-religion 'troubles' are the epitome of childishness
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:39 AM
Mar 2016

Sunni/Shia, Catholics/Protestants, arguing over how to best believe in things that are probably not there? It would be funny if it didn't cause so many deaths.
Another example as to why your claim religion does not inspire harm is wrong.

Response to Albertoo (Reply #33)

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
35. Your coarse language aside, you are off topic
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:04 AM
Mar 2016

The Crusades, Oil and Israel are not the topic of this thread.

But even assuming you use these off-topic issues to try and claim all violence is always politically motivated, never religiously, please note you are deliberately avoiding earlier examples I gave you which prove that violence can be caused unambiguously by religion alone (blasphemy in Saudi Arabia, Charlie Hebdo, the atheist bloggers hacked to death in Bangladesh, etc)

Response to Albertoo (Reply #35)

 

cwydro

(51,308 posts)
64. Pretty good sign someone has lost the argument when they start cursing you.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 08:55 AM
Mar 2016

For some reason Islam is considered untouchable by many on this board.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
43. Saudi blsphemy laws are a method of controlling a population
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:45 AM
Mar 2016

You'll notice that hte people writing and enforcing these laws tend to not be well-able to live up to them. It's a method the Saudi regime uses to prop itself up by keeping its own people bent over and terrified that htye, too, might end up kneeling in the dirt with a scimitar at their neck.

Hebdo and the blogger attacks are primarily about ego. "You talked shit about me, I can't abide that, so I'm going to wreck you." We see the same thing with the assaults at Trump rallies, "how DARE you challenge what I beleive and how I identify, have a boot to your face."

He's actually correct about the crusades, for what it's worth. You had an expanding empire on one side - the Caliphate - and on hte other you had European population boom (thanks to the warm period) that was reaking havoc on established politics - so the Pope beseeched the kings to send their spare men on a "holy quest" to retake Jerusalem. Net result? Rome re-asserts its political position, the established rulers free themselves of a lot of over-armed, ambitious young men, and a "shot over hte bow" is fired to a rising power.

Interestingly the Muslim world remembers the crusades about the same way the United States remembers the San Juan Pig War.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
45. Look, I never denied there are political wheels within the religious wheels
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 02:16 AM
Mar 2016

But religion can be a political motivation in itself. It is internalized by some as an ideal which guides their lives and actions. Take Khomeini: do you think he was just power hungry? Or did he really believe in a form of religion, and believe he was acting in accordance to it?

Religion can be an evil delusion and God is not great (Dawkins meets Hitchens)

Response to Scootaloo (Reply #43)

procon

(15,805 posts)
86. What an odd claim.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:53 AM
Mar 2016

Having read your rant, my only takeaway was; meh, another bigoted let's-bash-all-Muslims thread. That IS your topic, yeah? Don't try to backpedal now and pretend that you were only gripping about the Iraq War.

Embrace your bigotry, O thou most fearless Crusader, now go forth and spread the word to the non-believers.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
116. Uh? Then answer the question of the OP
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 08:52 AM
Mar 2016

Could you please demonstrate to me what I contest, i.e. is Islam a religion of peace?
Does Islam preach peace only, and zero violence?
If you can show that to me, I will humbly apologize and say I was a nasty Crusader.
NB: Crusaders fight for a belief, which is not my case, but never mind that.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
13. Both Islam and Christianity are awful and ridiculous and moronic and harmful.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:21 PM
Mar 2016

I am an equal opportunity religion smiter.

 

Herman4747

(1,825 posts)
2. "Define Islam" -- okay.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:57 PM
Mar 2016

Islam is believing everything Muhammad tells you to believe, no matter how stupid it is.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
4. You can't even say that
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:01 PM
Mar 2016

there were schools of thought in Islam which said Muhammad was an imperfect human and could have erred.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
7. LOL Define islamophobia and show me in what it applies to me
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:05 PM
Mar 2016

Next, kindly explain to me in what an ideology which is understood by half its practitioners as requesting the stoning of adulterers is progressive. LGBT rights in "Muslim countries"?

procon

(15,805 posts)
90. Seriously...
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:16 AM
Mar 2016

The whole War on Women is based on Christian doctrine, and the Dominionists belief that women must be controlled and they have no rights because they are are mere chattels and the property of men. Strip away my basic human rights to live my life as a free person without the interference of patriarchal religions, society and government all working in concert to diminish my very existence and force my into a life of subservient ignorance, or stone me... what a choice!

Tell me more about LGBT rights in "Muslim countries" vs LGBT rights in "Christian countries"... there's lot's of bragging rights about who is worse to go around in both camps, yet why are you only biased toward one?

Look, I'd be much more inclined to consider to your assertions as valid if you had pointed a critical finger at all organized religions that allow extremists to flourish under their brand instead of picking the most convenient evil doer based on the headlines of day.



 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
15. So, is "bigotry" against Republicanism and Conservatism also not a liberal value?
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:23 PM
Mar 2016

I guess by your definition we're all on the wrong website, because apparently no liberal should criticize any belief system, ever.

Oneironaut

(5,463 posts)
50. Why is criticizing Islam "bigotry," but criticizing Christianity is ok?
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 06:57 AM
Mar 2016

Both are equally ridiculous. Islam is not a religion of peace in the same way Christianity is not a religion of peace. Both have holy books that tell their followers that they should do violent things.

Saying Islam is a religion of peace is burying your head in the sand. It's never going to be true.

mwooldri

(10,291 posts)
9. And the Christian Bible and Jewish Torah make sense?
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:08 PM
Mar 2016

Islam is as peaceful as Christianity and Judaism. All three religions believe in the same God, yet all have differing views on Jesus of Nazareth (Jews: Messiah hasn't come yet & Jesus was a good man, Christians: Jesus is the Messiah, Muslims: Jesus isn't the Messiah but one of God's prophets). If we take the book that Christians and Jews call the book of Leviticus, and take it literally, then heck we're sinning all the way to the devil.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
11. No, they don't, but it's off topic
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:13 PM
Mar 2016

The Torah, the Old Testament are violent, full of obvious scientific mistakes, flagrant myths (Moses), etc, etc. One could argue the Quran (kill the infidels) is more violent than the New Testament (turn the other cheek), but it is not the point of the OP.

I am merely contradicting a claim I read here in GD and which does not stand scrutiny. I feel it's wrong, especially on the day of the Brussels attacks, to claim Islam is peace.
Unless one tackles step by step what I wrote in the OP.

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
16. A caveat wouldn't weaken your point
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:32 PM
Mar 2016

Islam isn't inherently violent, either. The problem is that there are so many bigots in the world that -- without that caveat -- many will mistake your contention for Islamaphobia.

I think you could probably make an argument that strict Islamic fundamentalism and/or Wahabbism is inherently violent, but that would require lots of people (both liberal and conservative) to understand stuff they don't (actually, honestly) care about.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
22. A fair point, but..
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:53 PM
Mar 2016

I would generally agree with what you wrote, in the sense it's the haters who turn religions into nightmares (but do the texts induce hateful ideas? Possibly)
With Islam arguably a more volatile and potentially dangerous mix because of the Quran sentences which are direct commands to attack non Muslims.

But anyway, my OP is merely refuting a claim which I found really irritating in context.

 

peace13

(11,076 posts)
17. The bible contradicts itself. Get over it.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:34 PM
Mar 2016

A billion Muslims .....if the majority weren't peaceful, you'ld be dead by now. This post is off the wall. I am only posting here so that if anyone was offended by it they will see that some of us aren't of this mindset.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
20. Do I care about the Bible? And you are confusing Islam and Muslims.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:40 PM
Mar 2016

My OP is very clear: I reacted to a sentence making a claim about a religious ideology.
I merely stated the obvious, i.e. that the claim "the ideology of Islam is peaceful" is empty.

 

Ford F-150

(72 posts)
46. I know right
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 02:42 AM
Mar 2016

if only 1% of that billion were radicalized that's only 10 million right? What are we afraid of?

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
26. Religions are defined by the people who practice them
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:22 AM
Mar 2016

Some of those people are inevitably assholes.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
28. And "faith" in evidence-less nonsense is lauded as a virtue in this country and others.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:26 AM
Mar 2016

How crazy is that, to protect silly and harmful mythologies from criticism while science and reason are routinely and freely attacked.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
41. It helps to understand religion from a biological standpoint
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:32 AM
Mar 2016

"Religion" is basically a by-product of the fact our ancestors were tasty - and thus justly paranoid - tree-dwellers. Evolution favors a monkey that jumps away from a stick that looks like a snake more than it favors a monkey that ignores a snake that looks like a stick. This is where our species-wide tendency towards apophenia comes from. Seeing patterns in random data is a survival instinct.

It just happens that we're not particularly worried about snakes anymore. But the instinct is still there. so we see faces in the stucco patterns of a wall. We play the lottery with our "lucky numbers.' We hem and haw over what the clouds are doing. we follow astrology. We see omens in fire and cricket chirps and the yellings of crazy dudes on a street corner. It's all the same thing, and it forms this weird stew.

Combine this instinct with another one we possess - ritual - and you've got yourself a religion. (Yes, ritual is instinctive - taking communion is just a variation on two primates grooming each other. Establishing social bonds and hierarchy.) That combination is part of what helps preserve this apophenia in our species - because ritual is actually GOOD for our survival. It pulls a community closer together in hard times, bettering the collective chance of survival. apophenia just rides along, as the imeptus behind most of the rituals we practice.

You can see it for yourself. In places where human stress is highest, you will find that levels of faith are usually high, too. I'm sure maybe you've got a snide remark about "religion causing it," but no, usually the most religious are people who are not actually involved in the conflict; it's the people running the hell away who drop to their knees and bow their heads. It's a method of coping with the stress they're under, to find an "outlet" because, really, the human mind just has real difficulties coming ot turns with random shit happening to random people for no damn good reason. Kind of a self-reinforcing loop, that.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
93. Probably several books, over a long period of time
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:27 PM
Mar 2016

...But no, I actually use words like "apophenia" for real, because i'm a fucking word snob

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
117. Whatever the origin of superstition and religious beliefs,
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 01:15 PM
Mar 2016

it really is not that difficult for a modern person to examine those beliefs to see if there is any evidence to support them. But most religious people do not want to do that -- they'd rather continue to believe in nonsense, because it is easier, and because they want to pretend an invisible sky daddy is pulling all the strings.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
29. Not only. Texts also have influence.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:29 AM
Mar 2016

It's harder to create concentration camps reading 'Paddington' than if you read 'Mein Kampf'.
Some sacred texts are pretty strong stuff.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
36. And yet concentration camps predate Mein Kampf.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:06 AM
Mar 2016

And a great many of people have read mein kampf and felt no desire whatsoever to enact what it contains.

The key factor is whether or not a person is an asshole. An asshole can find justification and outlines in Paddington, if they wanted to. Because assholes look everywhere for justification for what they do. The trick there is that the prose of Paddington Bear doesn't really lend itself the gravitas needed to convince other people that the asshole is justified in being an asshole. if Paddington had verse like Moby Dick, who knows?

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
39. Honestly, if Paddington inspires you to open a concentration camp,..
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:20 AM
Mar 2016

1- one, you sure are not a literalist reader
2- two, you scare me

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
44. Can we agree it can be justification, but not always?
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 02:06 AM
Mar 2016

Example: it would take an asshole to rip the heart of a young maiden alive. It can be incited by a religion* which would teach you it is what it takes to make sure the Sun will rise everyday. It will give justification to an asshole with psychopathic tendencies to embrace the job of high priest. But still, the text, the ritual will have demanded the sacrifice be executed.
Now, the person who invented the ritual was probably a psychopathic asshole himself, but that is the very problem of sacred texts: their inane commands live on.

* I never read about the Inca/Maya cults, so this example is for theoretical use only. I have not checked if these were real practices or smear tactics by the invading Christian missionaries.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
32. Thanks
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:36 AM
Mar 2016

Anyway, this thread was mostly a knee-jerk reaction to a post I found insensitive in context.
In the same way GW's inane comment irritated me on 9/11.

donna123

(182 posts)
47. Is is Islam or is it the Middle East?
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 04:30 AM
Mar 2016

I ask honestly. If someone has insight into this, that would be great. How many Indonesian or Bangladeshi Muslims have been involved in these type of attacks? Isn't the majority of Indonesia and Bangladesh Muslim? I know or knew Christians from the ME and they seemed to have a worldview shared by Muslims from the ME. They hate Israel and blame America for essentially everything. Even while they are enjoying all the privileges and comforts of living here, they are bashing the US left and right. It sickened me. I felt like saying, if you hate the US so much, why don't you leave? I feel like there is this mentality in the ME that feeds into radical Islam. Of course it isn't everyone, nothing ever is, but the majority of the population. The Quran interpreted literally sounds wacky but there's wacky stuff in the Bible too, like Lot (?) having sex with his daughters. Ummm...no. So I don't know how much is truly cultural, rather than religion.

Bucky

(53,805 posts)
62. It may be Europe. The radicalization of young Muslims occurs in prisons & ghettos, not mosques
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 08:47 AM
Mar 2016

Muslims make up a huge proportion of prisoners in western Europe. The two bombers from yesterday were both ex-cons. This is as much about poverty as it is about religion.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
48. I would be interested in opinion polling fundamentalist muslims
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 05:03 AM
Mar 2016

on their reactions to the terror attacks.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
49. ... because some Muslims are very violent? Is that the kind of extrapolation that the far-right does
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 06:16 AM
Mar 2016

about all minorities?

My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
51. I don't think religion
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 07:04 AM
Mar 2016

makes people do anything they don't already want to do, usually for other, personal, sometimes seemingly unfathomable reasons. Whether it's suicide bombing, or persecuting homosexuals, or picketing funerals, or handling snakes, the human mind is a deeply chaotic place.

get the red out

(13,459 posts)
53. I agree with you completely
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 07:27 AM
Mar 2016

And I ask the same questions about Christian terrorists here. In fact, I think the extremist-Christians who attack Family Planning clinics, for instance, prove your point. They haven't been bombed or oppressed, they just don't think anyone should be allowed to disagree with them.

They, like Islamic terrorists, also have a contingent of people who bend over backwards to say religion plays no part.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
74. Agreed. But worldwide, Islamic terrorism will be more prevalent in the ST
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:27 AM
Mar 2016

So many islamist groups these days. Like mushrooms.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
69. Does this man know anything about Islam?
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:21 AM
Mar 2016

Oh, I don't expect a response...I put the odds at like 32-1


Berlin Imam: Women Should Be Confined to the Home and Never Say No to Sex with Husband

 

giftedgirl77

(4,713 posts)
72. Wait, what there's psychos in every religion?
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:26 AM
Mar 2016

Hell look at the Duggars, Jeff's & Branch Dividions (sp). They are totally reasonable individuals that just worshipped their women folk.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
104. That's one person
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 09:23 PM
Mar 2016

You can find one person in any group of any description.

There are 1.6 billion Muslims and the vast majority of them are just trying to live their lives.

They are the ones oppressed by clerics who are extreme, not us.

 

giftedgirl77

(4,713 posts)
78. My fiancée is Muslim, born in Pakistan & moved here at 17.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:33 AM
Mar 2016

Not to mention multiple deployments so I must say I have a bit more experience than the assholes that grab their pitchforks & torches every chance they get. It's nice to have someone I can ask very pointed & direct questions to without fear of judgment or reprisal.

Response to Bonx (Reply #82)

Hereiam2005

(23 posts)
59. Do you realize that you would have to actually read the Koran in order to criticize it?
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 07:44 AM
Mar 2016
"The texts are unreliable and contradictory"

All religions do this.

"The interpretation of the texts are contradictory"

All religions also do this. Ask The Army of God if they have the same interpretation of the Book as you do. Or The Lord’s Resistance Army. Or Uganda's anti-gay laws. Even Buddhism, famous for nonviolence teaching, has its own terrorist groups.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/06/-sp-gay-ugandans-face-new-threat-from-anti-homosexuality-law

"part of the texts incite to violence: some Quran verses and hadiths"

First, Hadiths are verbal traditions that are essentially "I heard someone who heard someone who heard someone else saw the Prophet said ...", which are not precisely reliable.
There is even a Hadith that was almost a verbatim repeat of the Lord's Prayer: "Our Lord God, which art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom is in heaven and on earth; as Thy mercy is in Heaven, so show Thy mercy on earth; forgive us our debts and our sins. Thou art the Lord of the good; send down mercy from Thy mercy, and healing from Thy healing on this pain, that it may be healed.". Sounds familiar?

Second, pray tell, which Quran verses incite to violent? Assuming you can actually distinguish between the Text and the Hadiths.

"the way a plurality of Muslims understand Islam is not peaceful: half of the world Muslims believe their religion calls them to stone adulterers."

Stoning is NOT in the Quran. You can't blame the religion when it was obviously been perverted by other people.

"Their ISIS brand of Islam"

Have you ever heard of the word "cult"? ISIS is a cult. Period. The vast majority of Muslims, both Shia and Sunni, agree. (incidentally this is one of the rare occasion where they do agree)

"I cringed when I saw halfwit GW say just that just after 9/11."

I cringed whenever I saw people make uneducated comments about things they have no idea about, and make no effort to educate themselves before they open their mouth.

Peace to all.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,161 posts)
91. Islam is not just the Quran; there are the Hadith to consider too
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:22 PM
Mar 2016

and the accumulated decisions of Islamic jurisprudence:

Rajm (رجم is an Arabic word that means "stoning".[2][3] It is commonly used to refer to the Hudud punishment wherein an organized group throws stones at a convicted individual until that person dies. Under Islamic law, it is the prescribed punishment in cases of adultery committed by a married man or married woman. The conviction requires a confession from either the adulterer/adulteress, or the testimony of four witnesses (as prescribed by the Quran in Surah an-Nur verse 4), or pregnancy outside of marriage.[4][5][5][6]

No mention of stoning/Rajm or capital punishment for adultery is found in the Qur'an,[2] which (in Surah an-Nur) prescribes lashing as punishment for premarital and extramarital sex (zina).[7] For this reason some minority Muslim sects such as Kharijites found in Iraq, and Islamic Modernists such as the Quranists disagree with the legality of rajm.

However, stoning is mentioned in multiple hadiths[8] (reports claiming to quote what the prophet Muhammad said verbatim on various matters, which most Muslims and Islamic scholars consider an authoritative source second only to Quran as a source of religious law[9][10]) and therefore most Muslim and all Sunni and Shia schools of jurisprudence accept it as a prescribed punishment for adultery.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajm

Hereiam2005

(23 posts)
110. Some people accept Hadiths, some don't. It's like there are some who take the Old Testament
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:47 AM
Mar 2016

literally, and some who don't. It's in your quote for crying out loud: "For this reason some minority Muslim sects such as Kharijites found in Iraq, and Islamic Modernists such as the Quranists disagree with the legality of rajm."

Muslims are instructed to interpret the Koran on their own - that is the duty of all Muslims. To blindly follow some random self proclaimed "Muslim scholar" is the perversion of the religion at best.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,161 posts)
112. No, it's not like whether the OT is taken literally
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 07:01 AM
Mar 2016

Yes, also in my quote is:

"However, stoning is mentioned in multiple hadiths (reports claiming to quote what the prophet Muhammad said verbatim on various matters, which most Muslims and Islamic scholars consider an authoritative source second only to Quran as a source of religious law) and therefore most Muslim and all Sunni and Shia schools of jurisprudence accept it as a prescribed punishment for adultery. "

This is representative of the vast majority of interpretation. The Hadith are very important to all the main sects: http://www.britannica.com/topic/Hadith

"Muslims are instructed to interpret the Koran on their own" - that is, I presume, in the Koran somewhere, since you're quoting it as an instruction to Muslims. Can you give us the context of that, please?

Since you think the major Sunni and Shia schools are "perversions" of Islam (since they follow the Hadith advocating stoning, which you say is "obviously perverted by other people&quot , what is a 'true' version of Islam to you?

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
98. I read the Quran at least twice
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 09:15 PM
Mar 2016
(1) "The texts are unreliable and contradictory" - All religions do this.
I know. The OP clearly states I am answering to a specific statement made about Islam.

(2) First, Hadiths are verbal traditions ...", which are not precisely reliable.
I know. And yet the hadiths have force of Law. The 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence see the hadiths as an essential source, second only to the Quran, which itself is vague and contradictory, which means the hadiths end up being the primary source of jurisprudence.

Second, pray tell, which Quran verses incite to violent?
Like anything, it's debatable. If I write "kill them all", you might decide to translate as "perish all impure thoughts". For all it's worth, the first list of violent verses I could find to copy & paste here:
1 2:178 26 3:156 51 4:103 76 8:57 101 09:029 126 29:69 151 59:05
2 2:179 27 3:157 52 4:104 77 8:58 102 09:036 127 33:15 152 59:06
3 2:190 28 3:158 53 4:141 78 8:59 103 09:038 128 33:18 153 59:07
4 2:191 29 3:165 54 5:033 79 8:60 104 09:039 129 33:20 154 59:08
5 2:193 30 3:166 55 5:035 80 8:65 105 09:041 130 33:23 155 59:14
6 2:194 31 3:167 56 5:082 81 8:66 106 09:044 131 33:25 156 60:09
7 2:216 32 3:169 57 8:001 82 8:67 107 09:052 132 33:26 157 61:04
8 2:217 33 3:172 58 8:005 83 8:68 108 09:073 133 33:27 158 61:11
9 2:218 34 3:173 59 8:007 84 8 :69 109 09:081 134 33:50 159 61:13
10 2:244 35 3:195 60 8:009 85 8 : 70 110 09:083 135 42:39 160 63:04
11 3:121 36 4:071 61 8:010 86 8 : 71 111 09:086 136 47:04 161 64:14
12 3:122 37 4:072 62 8:012 87 8 : 72 112 09:088 137 47:20 162 66:09
13 3:123 38 4:074 63 8:015 88 8 : 73 113 09:092 138 47:35 163 73:20
14 3:124 39 4:075 64 8:016 89 8 : 74 114 09:111 139 48:15 164 76:08
15 3:125 40 4:076 65 8:017 90 8 : 75 115 09:120 140 48:16
16 3:126 41 4:077 66 8:039 91 9:05 116 09:122 141 48:17
17 3:140 42 4:084 67 8:040 92 9:12 117 09:123 142 48:18
18 3:141 43 4:089 68 8:041 93 9:13 118 16:110 143 48:19
19 3:142 44 4:090 69 8:042 94 9:14 119 22:039 144 48:20
20 3:143 45 4:091 70 8:043 95 9:16 120 22:058 145 48:21
21 3:146 46 4:094 71 8:044 96 9:19 121 22:078 146 48:22
22 3:152 47 4:095 72 8:045 97 9:20 122 24:053 147 48:23
23 3:153 48 4:100 73 8:046 98 9:24 123 24:055 148 48:24
24 3:154 49 4:101 74 8:047 99 9:25 124 25:052 149 49:15
25 3:155 50 4:102 75 8:048 100 9:26 125 29:006 150 59:02

Stoning is NOT in the Quran.
You can't blame the religion when it was obviously been perverted by other people.
Sorry, but that point is moot. You agreed with my statement the Quran is unreliable and contradictory (1) I reminded you why the hadiths are considered an operational pillar of Islam (2) So, stoning is not a perversion, it is mainstream Islam. But, as I was careful to state in my OP, define Islam? Maybe will it have evolved in a few centuries into a vague and mellow 'spirituality' (a word vague and useless in my eyes, but many people appear to think it's helpful)

"Their ISIS brand of Islam" Have you ever heard of the word "cult"? ISIS is a cult.
Define religion, define cult. A religion is a successful cult.
Besides, many Muslim journalists have already noted ISIS is very islamic. Literal Islam.

I cringed whenever I saw people make uneducated comments about things they have no idea about,
I hope you didn't have me in mind.

Hereiam2005

(23 posts)
111. You still have zero idea about Islam as a religion.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 01:21 AM
Mar 2016

Verse 2:178:
Sahih International: O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment.

Where exactly does it incite violent?

Verse 3:156
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
O you who have believed, do not be like those who disbelieved and said about their brothers when they traveled through the land or went out to fight, "If they had been with us, they would not have died or have been killed," so Allah makes that [misconception] a regret within their hearts. And it is Allah who gives life and causes death, and Allah is Seeing of what you do.

Where exactly does it incite violent?

Verse 4:103
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And when you have completed the prayer, remember Allah standing, sitting, or [lying] on your sides. But when you become secure, re-establish [regular] prayer. Indeed, prayer has been decreed upon the believers a decree of specified times.

Where exactly does it incite violent?

Seriously, do I really have to recheck all your verses?
Islam is translated from Arabic - and if you already think it's evil, you would use the most evil words to translate it. Or in your case, selectively select the worst translation of a verse to claim the verse is evil.

Definition of "cult":
"A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader."
(note: I use this definition).
By definition, Muslim is not a cult - since it is considered by at least 22% of the world to be not false.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cult


"The 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence"
Not all Muslims follow the Muslim jurists, or leaders, or scholars.
In fact, Muslims are encouraged to study the Koran by themselves - adhere to anyone but the Prophet and the words of God (which is the Koran) is following the false prophet, a crime in Muslim.
Those who blindly follow the words of any self-proclaimed Muslim jurists, or leaders, or scholars, any of them, are in fact, false Muslims.

Sorry, but that point is moot.
It's moot if you can't distinguish between a religion and its followers. It's like saying Germany is a terrible country because it produced Nazi. Nazism is a perversion of German culture, just as ISIS is a perversion of Islam. If you can't make that distinction, your whole arguments collapsed.
Islam is the Koran, period. It's the only thing that will never change.

"I know. The OP clearly states I am answering to a specific statement made about Islam."

This is the reason why I said that you have zero understanding about Islam and religion in general.
Religion, by itself, is open to interpretation. It's neither good, nor evil. It's the people who gave it their interpretation.

Your generalization of Islam is just bigotry, pure and simple.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
114. LOL I can prove a better understanding of Islam than yours
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 08:40 AM
Mar 2016
Verse 2:178 - Verse 3:156 - Verse 4:103
you give me three (3) peaceful verses for the one hundred and sixty (160) violent verses I quoted. You seem to have difficulties matching my number of verses. Don't look: I'll help you: most analysts count twice more violent, aggressive (about 150+) verses vs positive, peaceful commands (about 70).

Islam is translated from Arabic - and if you already think it's evil, you would use the most evil words to translate it.
Aaaahhh! The old "you have to read it in Arabic" meme. I'll pay attention to it the day linguists will have demonstrated Arabic is a magic language which hides deep, deep layers of meaning that can't be translated. Guess what? Translation does leave out some flavor from any language A to any language B. It doesn't mean that all languages haven't been efficiently translated for all texts. Except, surprisingly, for the only Quran which is the only text known to hide its true meaning under Arabic only. Surprising, don't you think?

Definition of "cult": By definition, Muslim is not a cult - since it is considered by at least 22% of the world to be not false.
I wrote a religion was a successful cult = a cult which gained mass following.
you answer no on the grounds Islam has a large following
I suppose you see you did not address my point: the distinction between religion and cult
Hint: the difference is in numbers only.

"The 4 schools of Islamic jurisprudence"
Not all Muslims follow the Muslim jurists, or leaders, or scholars.
That is cute. Not all American citizens follow the Law. Hence what? The Law doesn't exist?

(It's moot if you can't distinguish between a religion and its followers.)
ISIS is a perversion of Islam.
You ignore my point that many analysts wrote that ISIS is very islamic.
The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
saying something for the right reasons doesn’t necessarily make it right. An overwhelming majority of Muslims oppose ISIS and its ideology. But that’s not quite the same as saying that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam, when it very clearly has something to do with it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/11/18/does-isis-really-have-nothing-to-do-with-islam-islamic-apologetics-carry-serious-risks/

"I know. The OP clearly states I am answering to a specific statement made about Islam."
This is the reason why I said that you have zero understanding about Islam and religion in general. Religion, by itself, is open to interpretation. It's neither good, nor evil. It's the people who gave it their interpretation.
Perfect disconnect between my sentence and your comment.
In what does the fact I answer to a broad, blanket and arguably false statement about Islam proves I do not know that religion? You'll have to explain this to me.

Your generalization of Islam is just bigotry, pure and simple.
Certainly not, and I will prove it in a very simple way:
my OP contests the statement that Islam is a religion of peace (like all abrahamic religions, but that's not the point of the OP). Let's turn the table around:
prove to me that Islam preaches only peace and absolutely no violence

If you cannot prove this, I expect you will be hoest enough to withdraw your somewhat unfriendly comments that I would be a bigot. NB: go back to the definition of bigot, and show me of what I would be a bigot? I don't think you can, so let's stay civil, shall we?

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
61. Islam is not a religion of peace and that's why it's so hard for muslim scholars to denounce ISIS.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 08:26 AM
Mar 2016

The muslim scholars cannot say "what ISIS is doing is wrong because it's un-islamic". They cannot, because the violent and murderous doctrine of ISIS can be traced perfectly to several parts of the Quran. (Former ISIS-operatives have told western intelligence that ISIS indoctrinates its fighters with cherry-picked parts of the Quran.)

It's the same as with the Bible: There are good parts and bad parts and if you quote the bad parts, you have divine justification for atrocities.



1. So, whatever violence happens, the extremists can always back it up by quoting selectively from the Torah/Bible/Quran.

2. In scientific discourse, discussion leads to some claims being declared right and others being declared wrong. Religious discourse doesn't work that way. Everything from the holy books is right, all the time, even if there are contradictions. (Religious disputes in the Middle-Ages were solved by finding more and more Bible-quotes that support your stance. The side that ends up with more quotes or with better quotes, wins. The concept of disproving your opponent's quotes and declaring them wrong was unthinkable, because the Bible was always right.)
=> You cannot declare the bad parts of a holy book to be wrong, because that would declare the holy book as a whole to be possibly wrong.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
79. Has scientific discourse declared nuclear weapons as right or wrong?
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:36 AM
Mar 2016
In scientific discourse, discussion leads to some claims being declared right and others being declared wrong.


DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
84. What do you mean by "nuclear weapons"?
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:51 AM
Mar 2016

Do you mean the fact that they exist? Then Yes, this has been proven right by science.

Do you mean the way they are used or should be used? IIRC most national-security experts and scientists agree that the usage of nuclear weapons is a bad idea.

DemonGoddess

(4,640 posts)
63. What you have with DAESH
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 08:48 AM
Mar 2016

is what you have with ANY extreme religious fanatical group. It has much less to do with religion than it does with fanaticism itself. EVERY RELIGION has violent fanatics. Does this make it right? Of course not. These people use RELIGION as the excuse to be violent and cause harm.

You see this in all religions, the use of fanaticism to cause harm using the vehicle of religion. You will find, if you look honestly, that the vast majority of people of any stripe who believe in religion of ANY STRIPE are peaceful in belief, action, and intent.

You need to remember that most Muslims are not violent, and are peaceful. Just as not all Germans were Nazis, and not all white southerners are KKK. Painting people with a broad brush is wrong.

DAESH uses Islam as a VEHICLE to further their propaganda.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
77. True.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:31 AM
Mar 2016

Calling oneself a chosen people, or claiming one will end in eternal fire if one doesn't believe in Djeezus are not propositions conducive to mutual understanding.

Dont call me Shirley

(10,998 posts)
97. Radical Islam is to Fundamentalist Christianity as Peaceful Islam is to Peaceful Christianity.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 08:48 PM
Mar 2016

There are insane radicalized people in every grouping in society. Don't hate the whole group, heal the insane!

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
102. You are right, but it's not the issue of the OP
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 09:22 PM
Mar 2016

I agree with everything you wrote, but it was not my point.
My OP just contests the statement: "Islam is a religion of peace"
Notably because the ideology of all religions is ill defined, varies over time, and, especially for Abrahamic religions, contains a fair amount of incitation to some form of violence or other.

Dont call me Shirley

(10,998 posts)
106. If this world is created in gods image then gods image in this world is peaceful and violent.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 09:39 PM
Mar 2016

We live in a world of opposites, yin and yang. We can no more eradicate peace than eradicate violence. This plane of existence will not permit that. Some people gravitate more to violence, others gravitate more to peace. Any words and actions can incite either peace or violence, depending on a person's emotional/mental/physical state in this world at this point in time.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
101. Religions divide. None are peaceful. Only through the elimination of religion can
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 09:21 PM
Mar 2016

peace be achieved.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
107. Some are peaceful.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 09:39 PM
Mar 2016

Not all religions are created equally, as least as far as violence is concerned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

As far as irrationality is concerned, however, I think they're all about identical.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
115. So criticizing religion in a reasoned way is hate?
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 08:47 AM
Mar 2016

We had a narrow escape, you haven't used the Godwin tactic yet.
But it's near: Hitler = hate.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Re:Brussels, it makes no ...