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Jeffersons Ghost

(15,235 posts)
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:17 PM Mar 2016

When I began writing here, most readers cared about poor people and the environment

Last edited Wed Mar 23, 2016, 02:58 AM - Edit history (1)

Why are Chinese fishermen destroying coral reefs in the South China Sea?

Rupert Wingfield-Hayes BBC News wrote "What I came across on a reef far out in the middle of the South China Sea has left me shocked and confused."

I'd been told that Chinese fishermen were deliberately destroying reefs near a group of Philippine-controlled atolls in the Spratly Islands but I was not convinced.

"It goes on day and night, month after month," a Filipino mayor told me on the island of Palawan.

"I think it is deliberate. It is like they are punishing us by destroying our reefs." http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35106631


This report and others confirm the ancient animals are gigantic baby machines, which create food for humans and edible clam-spawn in waters that supports entire ecosystems, containing animals found no where else on Earth. Impoverished, indigenous populations in several nations, which use the South China Sea as a primary trade route are suffering, as China destroys their only food source. The Chinese Navy protects poachers, using fleets, utilizing divers and "mother-ships," with obvious permission from the President of China. The large-scale, pouching operation centers on collecting shells from animals that are hundreds of years old. Giant clams are slaughtered for their shells, which are only worth about $1,000 (£665) a pair on the open market. If China utilized the magnificent reefs for ecotourism, wealthy families in China would pay far more to enjoy scuba-diving and spear-fishing, in the clear waters.

If readers really cared about beautiful animals, endangered species and small nations full of poor people, who depend on the South China Sea for subsistence, they would post news articles or comments on the topic to publicize the rape of the South China Sea for ultra-wealthy seashell collectors in China.
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When I began writing here, most readers cared about poor people and the environment (Original Post) Jeffersons Ghost Mar 2016 OP
IT'S SO WEIRD! 7 recs and no news articles or comments... Jeffersons Ghost Mar 2016 #1
Fucking disgusting. Bonobo Mar 2016 #3
Vaguely akin to the rioting rabble fighting over Chinese crap at Walmart on Black Friday... Surya Gayatri Mar 2016 #11
And sainted Japan was partly responsible for creating that national character you despise so much... Marengo Mar 2016 #14
No, not really. Bonobo Mar 2016 #15
Historical reality trumps your obvious infatuation with Japan... Marengo Mar 2016 #22
Historical reality like 40 million dead in the Great Famine. Bonobo Mar 2016 #23
Interesting, it appears your view is that Japanese imperialist aggression in China,... Marengo Mar 2016 #25
"The famine is a domestic issue as opposed to invasion by a foreign power." Bonobo Mar 2016 #26
Deal with it? I've lived there, and know better than many... Marengo Mar 2016 #29
Yeah deal with it. Deal with the OP. Bonobo Mar 2016 #30
No China hasn't claimed Japanese ports and shipping lanes yet Jeffersons Ghost Mar 2016 #38
Actually I take back what I said about the Great Famine... Bonobo Mar 2016 #24
They most certainly are responsible, but to make a comparison which suggests cultural superiority... Marengo Mar 2016 #27
I didn't say they were superior in every way. What I said was... Bonobo Mar 2016 #28
If only their foreign policy had been so considerate at such a critical juncture in China's history Marengo Mar 2016 #31
Yup, every single aspect of Chinese culture can be traced back to 75 years ago. Bonobo Mar 2016 #32
Fascinating, the truth has drawn the anger out of you... Marengo Mar 2016 #33
You want to pretend that Japan is responsible for bad Chinese behavior in 2016? Bonobo Mar 2016 #34
Exclusively? No, and I never claimed such a thing. Partially, yes... Marengo Mar 2016 #36
The odd thing about Opening Posts by the Ghost is that readers put them on the Greatest Page... Jeffersons Ghost Mar 2016 #13
EVEN MORE WEIRD IS THE FACT "THAT" AFTER I POSTED THIS LOTS OF COMMENTS APPEARED! Jeffersons Ghost Mar 2016 #40
We DO care. davidthegnome Mar 2016 #2
What China is doing just makes no sense. cry baby Mar 2016 #4
Did you know species are now vanishihing faster than during Chicxulub mass extinction event? Jeffersons Ghost Mar 2016 #5
Yes, it's frightening. cry baby Mar 2016 #17
I OWN PLENTY OF IMPORTS MADE IN NATIONS, WHICH TOTALLY DEPEND ON THE SOUTH CHINA SEA FOR DELIVERY! Jeffersons Ghost Mar 2016 #19
Nature does fight back. Blue State Bandit Mar 2016 #6
Beautiful image "read un and weep": Blame an Ivory Ban for China’s Vanishing Giant Clams Jeffersons Ghost Mar 2016 #10
Thanks for posting this. China has a pretty terrible environmental record pnwmom Mar 2016 #7
What is that line...possession is nine tenths of the law? passiveporcupine Mar 2016 #8
I was thinking today about how artislife Mar 2016 #9
I care. Firebrand Gary Mar 2016 #12
WHY DID I HAVE A NIGHTMARE ABOUT POLTERGEIST? Jeffersons Ghost Mar 2016 #18
A couple decades ago I watched them run down people on the street with tanks. raouldukelives Mar 2016 #16
I read a news article written by a professional propaganda expert... Jeffersons Ghost Mar 2016 #20
DU is more interested in self-criticism than the environment muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #21
Sad... deathrind Mar 2016 #35
If readers really cared about beautiful animals and climate change they would stop eating meat. milestogo Mar 2016 #37
They'd raise and eat mealworms Kaleva Mar 2016 #39

Jeffersons Ghost

(15,235 posts)
1. IT'S SO WEIRD! 7 recs and no news articles or comments...
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:18 AM
Mar 2016

I appreciate being sent to the greatest page by caring readers; but I would like to share the limelight with others at Democratic Underground who can find news articles or make comments condemning destruction of life forms and indigenous populations around the South China Sea for the fun of ultra-wealthy people in China...

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
3. Fucking disgusting.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:27 AM
Mar 2016

China, at its worst, shares much in common with America at its worst.

It is a country filled with people that seem to feel fear and loathing for each other. They are driven by a relentless feeling that they must conquer the others to survive (or thrive).

That mindset is played out for all to see such as in their recent behavior at a all you can eat shrimp buffet in Thailand.

It is not the kind of character you want in a country that represents 1/4 of the world's population and the key to the future of the planet. They are fucked and so are we. In Japan, at a all you can eat buffet, I assure you that everyone would be concerned about not appearing to take more than their share - I mean that literally. That is what they would all be concerned about. Fairness. Now watch this:

 

Marengo

(3,477 posts)
14. And sainted Japan was partly responsible for creating that national character you despise so much...
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 08:02 AM
Mar 2016

One of the legacies of the "co-prosperity sphere", along with the brutality of the other colonial powers.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
15. No, not really.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 08:55 AM
Mar 2016

I think the 40 million deaths at the hands of Mao were just a wee bit more important. But in point of fact, the Chinese have been that way for a very, very long time before that.

 

Marengo

(3,477 posts)
22. Historical reality trumps your obvious infatuation with Japan...
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:14 AM
Mar 2016

14 years of brutality that exceeded that of even the western colonial powers had no impact on the modern Chinese psyche? Even with the acknowledgment that the party exclusively promotes the anti-Japanese war as diversionary propaganda tactic, to suggest that is absurd. Many of the members of my Chinese family who lived during that time did so in Wei Manzhouguo and other occupied territories. Some witnessed Japanese atrocities, all knew what they were capable of. In many it created a fear and loathing of foreign invaders so intense it seems to have compelled them to accept just about any price in building a China strong enough to resist it happening again.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
23. Historical reality like 40 million dead in the Great Famine.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:20 AM
Mar 2016

But then again, the fact that Mao's big old smiling mug is still there in Red Square does speak to a certain lack of willingness to face up to the truth.

The Chinese govt. will always use Japan-bashing to hide behind. Nothing like whipping up an external enemy to hide real problems of your own. Even if it is an enemy from over 70 years ago.

 

Marengo

(3,477 posts)
25. Interesting, it appears your view is that Japanese imperialist aggression in China,...
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:40 AM
Mar 2016

and it was nothing more than naked imperialism of legendary brutality, had NO role in creating the modern national Chinese character you criticize? The death toll of the famine isn't relevant to a discussion of the long term historic effect on the psychology of modern Chinese of Japan's entirely unjustified aggression. The famine is a domestic issue as opposed to invasion by a foreign power. It's almost as if you're engaging in the same kind of propaganda diversion you criticize the CCP for doing.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
26. "The famine is a domestic issue as opposed to invasion by a foreign power."
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:51 AM
Mar 2016

Sounds eerily like Chinese govt. propaganda.

"Stay out of our domestic affairs!"

Anyway, why don't you try to deal with the content of the OP. Sounds like you're in full defense mode.

I guess it's the fault of Japan that China is destroying the ecology and plundering the ocean, eh.

 

Marengo

(3,477 posts)
29. Deal with it? I've lived there, and know better than many...
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:54 AM
Mar 2016

But I bristle at suggestions of cultural superiority of one that caused so much havoc.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
30. Yeah deal with it. Deal with the OP.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:56 AM
Mar 2016

You know better? Than shed some light on how the Chinese could do this please?

And stop coming after me. I'm just telling it like it is.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
24. Actually I take back what I said about the Great Famine...
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:26 AM
Mar 2016

There is no excuse for adults to behave like the Chinese do in the video I posted above and in so many others that show how they behave abroad (graffiti on the Pyramids of Egypt, pouring boiling water on flight attendants, etc)

I am just making true observation that there are some real cultural problems, and digging back into WW2 as an excuse or even going back to how Mao starved 40 million people does nothing to really justify anything.

They are responsible for their own behavior.

 

Marengo

(3,477 posts)
27. They most certainly are responsible, but to make a comparison which suggests cultural superiority...
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:51 AM
Mar 2016

ignores the contribution made by the supposedly superior culture to the behavior of that being criticized. Something I've learned in my travels, we American tend to have much abbreviated historic memories when compared to other nationalities. It's seems a long time ago to us, but it's different for them. I've listened to Irish go on about Cromwell as if happened yesterday.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
28. I didn't say they were superior in every way. What I said was...
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:53 AM
Mar 2016

that in a similar situation as the all you can eat shrimp buffet, they would be considerate of others.

It is true and I am sorry if that bothers you.

 

Marengo

(3,477 posts)
31. If only their foreign policy had been so considerate at such a critical juncture in China's history
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 12:57 AM
Mar 2016

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
32. Yup, every single aspect of Chinese culture can be traced back to 75 years ago.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 01:07 AM
Mar 2016

You don't know jack shit.

China was steam rolled by the West. You think that was meaningless, Mr. Foreign-Invasion explains everything?

China has a very very long history. Maybe you should blame the Mongols while you're at it.

Deal with the OP or take a hike.

 

Marengo

(3,477 posts)
33. Fascinating, the truth has drawn the anger out of you...
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 01:34 AM
Mar 2016

You simply cannot admit that Japanese aggression has played a role it the development of the modern Chinese national character.

"Yup, every single aspect of Chinese culture can be traced back to 75 years ago."

You are simply in denial, no where in this discourse have I taken such an absurd position.

You don't know jack shit.

Of course I do, it's just that my knowledge has led me to take a position you cannot tolerate.

Deal with the OP or take a hike.

Deal with the truth or risk the appearance of being an apologist for something which can never be justified.

take a hike

Is that order? What happens if I don't, will the Kempeitai pay me a visit?

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
34. You want to pretend that Japan is responsible for bad Chinese behavior in 2016?
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 01:36 AM
Mar 2016

Knock yourself out, pal.

It's silly, but it's a free country so go right ahead.

 

Marengo

(3,477 posts)
36. Exclusively? No, and I never claimed such a thing. Partially, yes...
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 07:28 AM
Mar 2016

and to pretend otherwise is, to use your word, silly.

Jeffersons Ghost

(15,235 posts)
13. The odd thing about Opening Posts by the Ghost is that readers put them on the Greatest Page...
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 04:03 AM
Mar 2016

And on this post absolutely no comments were offered until I pointed out the [space] oddity in the previous comment, which I added hours before the Opening Post...

davidthegnome

(2,983 posts)
2. We DO care.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:26 AM
Mar 2016

A lot of what you're seeing right now is... essentially, DU gone wild. This is what happens here during the primaries. A lot of it is ignorant. Some of it is even hateful. For all of that though, I believe DUers, as a general group, are people with good intentions who DO care about the poor and the environment. What both Sanders and Clinton are saying on television now... people here have been saying for years. About how to help the poor, about how to repair our environment, about how to make the world a better place. The ideals and intentions have always been there, but now I think, we are beginning to see the anger that boiled beneath the surface. Sanders, I think, is, in part, a representation of that. Our anger at being ignored, condescended to and even mocked by our own party - particularly for those of us who are, shall we say... a bit out in left field.

Most of the legislation now and in the future you will see regarding climate change has come either from professionals in the field, or from progressives who give a damn and are working for change. This is the same in regards to the poor, to those in need. It's always going to be an uphill battle, but we will win, because we are right, and because there is more empathy and compassion in the world than there is ignorance and hate.

Some times it is easy to get the feeling that nothing is really happening, that no one cares, that nothing will happen. When we get that feeling most strongly, I believe... is when we have to find the courage within ourselves to make things happen - and I applaud you for your effort to do just that with your post.

I have heard rumors of what your article is talking about, I have seen headlines that I may not have paid enough attention to. As a result of your post though - at least one person here is better educated and will continue to learn what they can about this issue. It's not just about America - it's about the world.

Thank you for posting - hang in there. Though it may not always be evident, we care, we care a great deal.

A hundred years old being... sold for a thousand bucks at an auction. That's beyond despicable. Please, send this article to your congress members, Senators - and the Presidential campaigns. Let me know, also, if there's anything I can do to help get the word out.

cry baby

(6,682 posts)
4. What China is doing just makes no sense.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:28 AM
Mar 2016

Humanity just doesn't seem to be evolving to understand the rules of nature.

Jeffersons Ghost

(15,235 posts)
5. Did you know species are now vanishihing faster than during Chicxulub mass extinction event?
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:57 AM
Mar 2016

There is massive death in bat (insectivore) populations, while fragile amphibian species, which subsist on insects, die out in massive numbers. Meanwhile - due to global warming - crop eating insects are enjoying extra reproductive cycles.

cry baby

(6,682 posts)
17. Yes, it's frightening.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:55 AM
Mar 2016

In a month, I'm going to be a grandmother for the first time. I am afraid what kind of world will be left for him and his children.

Even by the end of my life, I am afraid the natural world will be a much less wonderful and fascinating place.

I believe it's greed that is going to destroy everything beautiful and necessary for life on this fragile planet.

Jeffersons Ghost

(15,235 posts)
19. I OWN PLENTY OF IMPORTS MADE IN NATIONS, WHICH TOTALLY DEPEND ON THE SOUTH CHINA SEA FOR DELIVERY!
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 02:32 PM
Mar 2016

Including a double-crossed, ex-friend named Vietnam.

&ebc=ANyPxKrU-pECXCsOhNu_0b8N52AlXFQ9_niqzrzycDQT5-LxOVYIRXY-IzN36r2XJoWDRIesFakkRumRBmh0vDKZlaKmP-8cRg
Welcome t our "silly, silly world."

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
8. What is that line...possession is nine tenths of the law?
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:18 AM
Mar 2016

China is doing a land grab. That is the only story I've even heard about in the past six months or so, not that they were deliberately killing coral reefs. If they are...if they are actually destroying live reefs, and not just tearing apart reefs that have already died, then something needs to be done to stop them. Building sites on top of coral reefs (not adjacent to) also should be stopped.

We've been threatening, but they keep on building, trying to assume possession of the areas that are under dispute. China wants it all and probably thinks (like Russia) they are big enough, they can take what they want.

The Philippines are too small to fight China. I hope we can actually do something to stop this, but I know we don't want a war with China.

I'm sorry, but the only articles I can even find with google are pretty recent. And they are all pretty much the same as what you posted here.

I wouldn't be too surprised at a lack of response tonight...it's primaries in three states tonight. That is where most DUer's attentions will be.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
9. I was thinking today about how
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:38 AM
Mar 2016

The Nation Geographic had specials on about the oceans dying back in the 70s. We have been actively killing and knowing we are killing this planet for 40 years. Why can't our species think about the good of the species and its home over the money of a few.

I know we have always been like that. The Spaniards came for the gold, the Egyptians had caravans to the gold coast and etc. We are doomed by our greed.

raouldukelives

(5,178 posts)
16. A couple decades ago I watched them run down people on the street with tanks.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 09:29 AM
Mar 2016

From that moment on, I decided I wasn't going to be a big booster of them.

Irregardless of how our international corporate overlords saw it and how much other American soil based shareholders enjoyed their individual piece of the action, it just isn't how I roll.

The only way to stand against something, is to stop standing with it. For some of us, caring is all we can do, anymore.

Jeffersons Ghost

(15,235 posts)
20. I read a news article written by a professional propaganda expert...
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 04:55 PM
Mar 2016

I read a reliable news article that stated most people in China had never heard of The Tiananmen Massacre of 1989! http://dailysignal.com/2015/06/05/photo-essay-remembering-the-tiananmen-square-protests-26-years-later/

muriel_volestrangler

(101,159 posts)
21. DU is more interested in self-criticism than the environment
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 04:57 PM
Mar 2016

The article was posted twice before - it attracted a tiny bit of interest, but no more:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112795021

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027451824

With a "we don't care enough" title, this thread has got over 10 times the recs of the other 2 combined.

deathrind

(1,786 posts)
35. Sad...
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 02:04 AM
Mar 2016

But it is what humans do. This type of destruction is not isolated to China or the S. China Sea...

It is happening globally and tragically it will continue until nothing is left.

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
37. If readers really cared about beautiful animals and climate change they would stop eating meat.
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 07:30 AM
Mar 2016

Posting on a messageboard does nothing to help animals or the environment.

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