Let's disagree without being disagreeable.

We can even enjoy ourselves with a little snark.

But grave dancers, rudeness and personal attacks just don't belong here.

Well said, indeed. And a bargain at 10 cents!

A little kindness and empathy goes a long way, just about anywhere . . .

I would urge: Remember, folks--critique/challenge/counter-argue/attack--if you must--the POSITION of the poster, not the PERSON. Please?

Many here don't cry or fear the same way I do.

I've seen it in their posts. We are different and our goals do not follow the same path.

We need progress. We can not afford the path of corporate welfare in exchange for broken ceilings. We can not afford a state of war over a boom in infrastructure rebuilding. We can not afford failing education over loan profits for "banks". We can not afford the health insurance industry.

Pipe dreams?

We can not afford to stand back and say 'it is the way it is because we refuse to try.'

Many of my fellow DU'ers do not fear, cry, bleed, or love the same way I do.

I guess my biggest issue is that I feel Bernie, as a democratic socialist (or independent), is closer to being a true democrat (i.e., progressive) whereas Hillary seems to be a self-serving, opportunistic moderate republican. This is just my opinion. As such, I was hoping more people would be getting behind Bernie than Hillary for this very reason. Alas, it seems that some lifelong democrats are sticking with Hillary because either they don't feel Bernie belongs here, or a desire to have the first female POTUS, or that Bernie can't win in the GE. Whatever the reason, I think the sometimes blind allegiance to her, no matter how much she cozies up to Wall St. or how many trade agreements she is on board with, is pulling this party to the right, and it quite frankly scares me. I don't hate Hillary, I just don't trust her.

I feel like if Bernie doesn't get the nomination, Hillary will either a) not win the GE, b) win the GE but get nothing accomplished because a lot of republicans hate her, or c) get things done that only benefit her own interests and not that of us real progressives. Because of all these feelings, I am getting frustrated with what I perceive to be a golden opportunity being wasted by not nominating Bernie and it shows with my comments sometimes.

Other than that, things are peachy.

Where do you come off telling me that I have "blind allegiance?"

You have no business telling me what I believe, or why, or claiming that you or your judgment is superior to mine. I am appalled by your arrogance. I don't do this to you, but if I try to express my opinion or defend myself I get alert swarmed and hidden, and the fact that you are not the majority makes the arrogance of it even more appalling.

I have never swarmed or hidden you. If you'd like, I'll wait until I'm in the majority before expressing my arrogance so it's not so appalling.

And yes, you are an individual and deserve to be treated as such. Perhaps I erred in lumping you?

But then you lumped me, and you called my judgment "blind allegiance."

I don't really care what you do. I can't care, because there are people who will turn that against me. I can only suggest to you that perhaps you could be more generous in your judgments. I assure you that I have no "blind allegiance." I have a reasonably objective argument. First and foremost I favor Democrats because I don't want to see Scalia, Jr. appointed to the Supreme Court.

Any discussion I would have here at Democratic Underground would have to start with that meeting of the minds. I am certain that we have much more in common, but my attempts to discuss that have degenerated into some kind third rate psychobabble about how venal and craven I am for not hating Hillary Clinton.

If you have to wait until you are in the majority to have decency that's up to you.

What he values most. He answered compassion. I don't think Hillary even knows what the word means.

You have zero access to Hillary's heart and mind. You base this judgment strictly on what you read from others.

from the candidates themselves. There is voting history, speeches, and countless videos of the candidates to name just a few ways we can know the heart and mind of Hillary.

It's the 21st century, we no longer need to rely on word of mouth from others about politicians. They put themselves on full display and we can watch them speak for themselves with a simple google query.

But as I said, I am beyond the point of trying to explain to people how important a Democratic victory is. Vote blue no matter who.

If you don't understand that, I have no hope for you.

Wow, I think that says it all.

This is what I can't stand about people here. You just did it and you have no shame.

And not anyone's words including hers. Bush called himself a compassionate conservative. I never heard such a joke. And yet people ate it up. Bush Sr also was not a wimp. He murdered hundreds of thousands. Politicians need to be watched closely.

So do your best to undermine her and get Donald Trump elected.

That makes perfect sense. Cut off your nose to spite your face.

And attack me while you're at it. Why not?

Easy on the persecution complex. And I support Bernie because he's honest AND he polls better against the evil Trump than Hillary. Don't forget also that Hillary is a good friend of Trump. Bernie is not.

Fortunately you don't have any power to persecute anyone. Nor do you have anything that will convince me th a third it's a good idea to undermine the Democratic Party.

Your choice will be Hillary or Trump and unless you support Hillary you will be supporting Trump. If you don't support our candidate you will get no quarter from me, here at Democratic Underground.

First off I have been a democrat as long as anyone. Second Bernie was one when Hillary was campaigning with Goldwater against the Civil Rights Act. And it's repulsive she claims Bernie wasn't involved when there are not only photos of him putting his future on the line getting arrested but now we have seen photos of him with MLK...the only white person there. Thirdly, Bernie polls better against Trump than her in EVERY poll so it is you in denial not me. Those who think for themselves see the obvious.

Hillary or Trump. If you don't support and vote for Hillary you effectively support Trump.

You can rant, and make excuses, but you cannot change that reality.

Bernie can and will win. You're outrageous. I can't believe I'm even responding to your childish ranting.

But there is no telling you the facts of life.

Smh.

Go back to GD - P if you feel the need to spew venom.

"I don't think..."

That's becoming more and more obvious. Bias often prevents that.

That would be the most compassionate thing a Democrat has done for so many people since Jimmy Carter.

K&R. I couldn't agree more.

Thank you!

Last edited Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:43 AM - Edit history (1)

That is my nature and maybe I can do that in the future.

I never deserved the abuse I got here. I don't think you ever doled any abuse out to me, so that is not directed at you. I am not whining about it but hey if people are going to behave that way I am not going to trust them. The worst part of it is when they try to tell me it's my own fault that they dole out abuse, specifically changing whatever the subject is to something about me, personally. I cannot respect anyone who stoops that low both in terms of their lack of personal integrity and the sheer stupidity of the thing. Then, because I disagree with them, they call me names like "corporatist" or whatever. It's exactly what LaRouche cultists do when I walk by them and don't take their idiotic propaganda.

That behavior is sociopathic and inexcusable. Their atrocious behavior is theirs, not mine, and they have no business thinking they can convince me that I have a problem. They act out their own insecurities and their own b.s. and I will never tolerate that even if I have to restrain myself here. That isn't political. It's appropriate. It's common decency. The fact that this is an anonymous internet board is irrelevant. The behavior is inexcusable.

What makes it more deplorable is that the people who behave this way aren't needed, for anything. They are marginal and that is a fact. They have behaved this way for many years now and we have moved forward just fine without them proving that they're marginal. We will continue to move forward too, because we Democrats are correct. We have it right. If they want to move forward and help us move forward then they join us, not the other way around. They are a minority of our party, and we have a democracy. Unless and until they can muster a majority, that's the end of that. And if they think they can muster a majority by abusing liberals like myself, they are truly pathetic.

I will respect people here who are reasonable but I doubt that I will ever trust people here the way I once did. I have plenty of friends who discuss matters the way I deem appropriate.

I was thinking about people, particularly, democrats, who are in Idaho and other places and waiting in line for hours. Out in the cold in Utah, in the sun in Arizona. Whether Sanders supporters or Clinton supporters, these are the people I want to work with going forward. These people who care about the environment, about the poor, about workers rights and voting rights. These people who will drop what they're doing, in the midst of a truly stressful and difficult life - to go out and vote for change, because they believe enough to work for it. They believe - in us. That is a large part of what being a democrat is, it's believing in people.

I can understand your anger, I really can, because I have felt it too - throughout this primary season. Last night I just decided that I had had enough. A lot of the ugliness you see here comes from a place of anger... and a lot of that is righteous anger. Anger at the Koch brothers, at the behavior of various corporations, at the Supreme Court, the republicans - there's really a laundry list of things. It should not though, be devolving into anger and even hatred towards our fellow democrats.

There is no justification nor excuse for certain types of behavior - but the people acting badly are people - and good people - for the most part. Some times people get a bit of tunnel vision. They get so carried away, so passionate in what they are fighting for, that they act, speak, think - and/or type without giving it the consideration it deserves. We've all done this. We've all come to regret it.

I hope we can all, ultimately, forgive. I don't think we should forget though, we should remember the ugliness and cruelty going forward, as an example in how not to treat each other. A lot of the stuff that has been said here has genuinely hurt people - and that's terrible, because we are on the same side. I hope we can keep that in mind, going forward.

They have caused real damage. They lied us into war. They killed the middle class. They degraded our environment, education, and our infrastructure. They have cost us trillions of dollars and they are scoundrels and liars

I am not angry with the radical left. They are as odious and as obnoxious as the radical right but they have the decency to be marginal and irrelevant.

Writing them off as reprobates is more a matter of practicality and efficiency than anything else. Never try to teach a pig to sing, it never sings it just gets mad at you.

So yes if you are interested in those things and not the stupid ideological purity crap then you are OK with me.

I am quite a bit left of center. I don't know if that qualifies me as radical or not. I guess it doesn't really matter to me, my facebook profile states that I am indeed a shameless liberal - which I am.

If I am radical, it is because the experiences of my life-time have made me so. While I agree with you in regards to conservatism and conservatives (who really, aren't conservatives, or practicing conservatism - not in the actual meaning of the words) the radical left is another matter. I do not support violence, I do not believe in "ideological purity", but I do believe strongly in a few core things:

Greater equality for all
Greater financial equality for all - including the redistribution of wealth (accomplished in many ways - primarily through progressive legislation and taxation)
Eliminating corporate subsidies - and cutting the MIC back down to size
Protecting and strengthening our environment
A much stronger safety net
The protection of civil rights
A strongly regulated market and financial system
Stronger workers rights

I could list a few more, but that's basically the gist of it. I don't know how radical these things are, or if they even are radical, but I tend to lean hard left when it comes to them specifically. I don't know whether I, or those in agreement with me are marginal or irrelevant - but we have often been referred to as such, and mocked and condescended to by the party establishment.

It is one thing to disagree on matters of policy and/or principle, it is another to view each other with disgust or contempt for these things. That was, at least in part, the point of my OP.

Still, I am pretty fiercely liberal in many regards. Years of struggle with mental illness, poverty, health issues and other things started me down that path long ago and my positions have, if anything, strengthened over the years. That being said... I also believe in the golden rule. Some times I fall short of acting as decently, as kindly as I should, but I do aspire to be kind to others, to make friends instead of enemies - and I deeply value empathy, compassion, courage and kindness in general.

There are grey areas... matters in which we primarily (more moderate and more radical democrats) disagree more on how to get things accomplished, rather than on whether they should be. I think most of us want a lot of the same things - and I don't think most of those things are radical or ridiculous.

We live in a democracy. I too am left of center. I go with the majority because that's how it works and I believe in democracy.

Incremental change works.

The radicals here act like they can have their way here and now even though the majority say otherwise.

Worse yet, for them, they proved with their anti-Obama crap that we do just fine without them. President Obama is wildly popular with Democrats and President Hillary Clinton will be too.

So what is my logical conclusion?

...finally at its "expiration point," as far as adding anything useful, or edifying, to one's life.

Except perhaps as a news aggregator...

Look at the various groups and different forums - I promise you will find several posts that are well thought out, passionate, kind, empathetic, uplifting and/or funny. DU has added all kinds of great thoughts, ideas and people to my life, this primary ugliness will pass and most of us will be voting together and working on a lot of the same things in the future.

Whether it's something simple and cute that makes us laugh, or a powerful post about the state of our economy and/or environment, or a call to help rescue someone in need... DU does all kinds of great stuff, all the time.

...which is to say the topic groups, etc.

Perhaps I've been spending too much time on the main page -- the equivalent of staying put in a particularly troublesome middle school yard....

Some here are paid to disrupt and divide, and do it diligently and continually. That is the truth. That is not unique to DU. It is the nature of the Internet and human discourse.

I do not believe they are quite as persuasive, as powerful, or as numerous as would be required for them to be terribly effective. I also don't think they are more in one camp than in another. I am far more concerned about the republicans, tea party members, and others throughout various internet social media that are trying to control the narrative.

I believe that the vast majority of people who come here are decent people, with good intentions. I don't think I'll ever change my mind about that. Also... generosity is a basic principle that I think we as democrats, generally believe in.

I've always liked you and enjoyed your posts, Grasswire - and have appreciated you following mine and often offering positive comments and contributions. I do think though, that a lot of us are getting too carried away in these primaries. Clinton supporters aren't the enemies of Sanders supporters - and Sanders supporters aren't the enemies of Clinton supporters. We want a lot of the same things, we are on the same side. It shouldn't even be a matter of sides... but of policies, of how best to promote and accomplish progressive legislation and change. I believe we can work together to do these things - more, I believe we can only accomplish these things by working together.

As for the people being paid to disrupt, I believe they will ultimately fail in their missions... because the general consensus that I am seeing, over and over again... is that we all believe in greater equality for everyone, in many different regards.

With respect and appreciation - and gratitude for you, as always, my friend - I would ask that you take a deep breath and remember that most of the people here are your friends, your brothers and sisters, at the very least, your political allies. We're in this together.

We will need kindness in the coming days, weeks and months to guide us.

The differences between us are very small compared to the Oligarchs and Evangelicals who call themselves conservatives!

Let's get this to the top of the Greatest Threads!

especially the poor and needy, to heal and care for the sick, to educate those who do not know, to know that we are all one not one of us is superior and more deserving than any another, to share all natural resources, to understand that we all suffer and to cause no further suffering to any other being, to care for our natural world plant animal and mineral, to learn to listen to each other and the natural world, to learn to connect with our soul and love our own self, to do unto others as we would have others do unto us.

These are the values that Bernie Sanders upholds and has upheld his entire life.

DEMOCRATS!