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kentuck

(110,950 posts)
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 02:34 PM Aug 2016

The death of civility

There was a time when the media was outraged when Bob Dole told George Bush One to stop lying about his record. That sounds very tame compared to today's rhetoric.

There was a degree of civility that was expected from our leaders. That has disappeared with the appearance of Donald Trump on the scene. Anyone goes. Call your opponent any name you want. The media, which should be a referee in our politics, has no idea how to report on the new vulgar nature of politics.

It is sad to see such a rapid decline in civility and common sense in our politics. A big majority of our voters are ripe for the picking. This is a threat unlike any we have seen, at least since McCarthy times.

26 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The death of civility (Original Post) kentuck Aug 2016 OP
You kidding me? Archae Aug 2016 #1
"...at least since McCarthy times." kentuck Aug 2016 #2
You don't remember the Nixon years. Archae Aug 2016 #4
I remember. kentuck Aug 2016 #7
Not exactly. elleng Aug 2016 #6
Are we going to pretend that Democrats were civil to Bush tymorial Aug 2016 #3
I wasn't. Buckeye_Democrat Aug 2016 #5
You are disagreeing with the entire Democratic strategy being run against him. kentuck Aug 2016 #9
I think Al Gore and John Kerry were civil to him. Chiyo-chichi Aug 2016 #11
I agree. kentuck Aug 2016 #15
"My dog Millie knows more about foreign affairs than these two bozos" - President George H. W. Bush, LongtimeAZDem Aug 2016 #8
Very tame. kentuck Aug 2016 #10
Yes, we truly have abandoned civility. Orrex Aug 2016 #12
There are historical examples but.... kentuck Aug 2016 #16
That so many Americans like such a hateful man as Trump..... Jade Fox Aug 2016 #13
not so rapid. we merely decided that there was a line that trump crossed. unblock Aug 2016 #14
Good post. Eleanors38 Aug 2016 #18
True. kentuck Aug 2016 #19
Then again, that was an improvement to the behavior or this South Carolina congressman: unblock Aug 2016 #24
Curious, but the Founders knew the potential good of a free press before the press did... Eleanors38 Aug 2016 #17
Please stop with the phoney sanctimoniousness. closeupready Aug 2016 #20
Seriously? kentuck Aug 2016 #21
Yes, seriously. If you are suggesting that honesty will lose Democrats the election, closeupready Aug 2016 #22
I was speaking of civility. kentuck Aug 2016 #23
Civility if it ever existed died long, long ago. former9thward Aug 2016 #25
Yes. The whole nation saw it on live TV. kentuck Aug 2016 #26

Archae

(46,260 posts)
1. You kidding me?
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 02:39 PM
Aug 2016

John Adams passed and enforced a LAW that made it a crime to be critical or the government.
It was called the Alien and Sedition Act.

Andrew Jackson was viciously attacked, even accused of murder.

Lincoln was caricatured wanting whites to marry blacks. When slavery was still common in the South.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
3. Are we going to pretend that Democrats were civil to Bush
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 02:43 PM
Aug 2016

Or was that okay because he was a terrible president? I am no fan of Bush but this argument is convenient. There are a multitude of reasons to attack trump without creating the impression of hypocrisy.

I am certain my comment will result in swift condemnation, labels of Republican, traitor etc etc but I stand by my statement.

kentuck

(110,950 posts)
9. You are disagreeing with the entire Democratic strategy being run against him.
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 02:48 PM
Aug 2016

which is about his temperament and incivility.

Chiyo-chichi

(3,562 posts)
11. I think Al Gore and John Kerry were civil to him.
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 02:56 PM
Aug 2016

Democrats might not have been... certainly not DUers, myself included.

But Trump has certainly crossed a line in the modern era in terms of what comes out of the mouth of a major party candidate about his opponent.

To expand on kentuck's point, I remember when it was considered rude that H.W. Bush wouldn't refer to Dukakis by name or title in the debates. He would just refer to him as "he." Bush picked that up from Reagan, if I recall... probably at Lee Atwater technique.

Yes, "Nixon's goons" and surrogates for presidential candidates have said and done a lot of things. But now we have a major party candidate calling his opponent a bigot during a rally. I think that's unprecedented in the modern era.

LongtimeAZDem

(4,494 posts)
8. "My dog Millie knows more about foreign affairs than these two bozos" - President George H. W. Bush,
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 02:48 PM
Aug 2016

speaking about candidates Bill Clinton and Al Gore, 1992.

Orrex

(63,084 posts)
12. Yes, we truly have abandoned civility.
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 02:59 PM
Aug 2016

I mean, look at 1842, when no less a personage than Charles Darwin was so moved by American civility that he felt inspired to pen the following:

It was not a month, since this same body (The House of Representatives) had sat calmly by, and heard a man, one of themselves, with oaths which beggars in their drink reject, threaten to cut another’s throat from ear to ear. There he sat, among them; not crushed by the general feeling of the assembly, but as good a man as any.
From Charles Dickens' American Notes, chapter 8.

Yes, we're certainly a lot less civil than we used to be.

Jade Fox

(10,030 posts)
13. That so many Americans like such a hateful man as Trump.....
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 02:59 PM
Aug 2016

is truly disturbing.

And yes, the media is clueless -- and cowardly. Apparently they are terrified of being called biased by Fox News et al if they just report the truth and ignore the spin.

unblock

(51,974 posts)
14. not so rapid. we merely decided that there was a line that trump crossed.
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 02:59 PM
Aug 2016

there's been a slow but steady decent on the republican side going back to reagan & gingrich.

they weren't saints before that, but they weren't trending up or down. they were generally decorous and respectful but got their jabs in politely. they would surround the insults with praise. "my dear friend the senator from the great state of new jersey's shortcomings in the ethics department won't keep us from going forward with this great bill he sponsored."

steadily, they dropped the window dressing and the praise and the co-operation and formality and decorum and amped up the negative. it's been a long process.

now, finally, they're left with completely bald insults like "hillary is a bigot."

trump is different only because he's the one who removed the last bit of decency, but let's be realistic, the decency has been eroding steadily for decades.

kentuck

(110,950 posts)
19. True.
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 03:15 PM
Aug 2016

There was a point when a Congressman from South Carolina stood up on the floor of the House during a State of the Union and yelled "Liar" at our first African-American President.

unblock

(51,974 posts)
24. Then again, that was an improvement to the behavior or this South Carolina congressman:
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 03:30 PM
Aug 2016
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Brooks

Brooks was a fervent advocate of slavery and states' rights. He is primarily remembered for his May 22, 1856 violent assault upon abolitionist Senator Charles Sumner (Free Soil-Massachusetts), with a cane on the floor of the United States Senate. This was in retaliation for an anti-slavery speech by Sumner in which Sumner verbally attacked Brooks' second cousin,[1][2] Senator Andrew Butler. Brooks' action was applauded by many Southerners and abhorred in the North.[3] An attempt to oust him from the House of Representatives failed, and he received only token punishment in his criminal trial. He resigned his seat in July 1856 to give his constituents the opportunity to ratify his conduct in a special election, which they did by electing him in August to fill the vacancy created by his resignation. He was reelected to a full term in November 1856 but died five weeks before the term began in March 1857.[4]

Sumner was seriously injured and unable to take his seat in the Senate for three years, though eventually he recovered and resumed his Senate career.[5]

Brooks' act and the polarizing national reaction to it are frequently cited as a major factor in the rising tensions leading up to the American Civil War.[6]
 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
17. Curious, but the Founders knew the potential good of a free press before the press did...
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 03:12 PM
Aug 2016

The Revolutionary press was an underground operation and very effective, but without a revolution, it was pretty shit-in-pants in performing its "fourth branch of government," preferring instead to serve as hand maid to corporate interests and as hired-gun provocateurs. Really, only in the last century did it develop into a reasonably responsible mass media at times even taking leadership on fundamental issues. Now, with the collapse of MSM and the concomitant rise of the innertubes, it has fallen back into the old ways. I don't think it views itself as a fourth branch any longer, only various entities struggling to survive in an era of bouncing boobs, screwballs and sport-hate. They damn well will not question corporate power.

kentuck

(110,950 posts)
21. Seriously?
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 03:22 PM
Aug 2016

If so, we will lose this election. Because if we have citizens that are so blind to the changes before us, we are lost.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
22. Yes, seriously. If you are suggesting that honesty will lose Democrats the election,
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 03:28 PM
Aug 2016

then say so. Because the accusations of all kinds of bad shit have been rife on both sides of the aisle for DECADES - whatever the crime, you name it: someone politically important has accused someone else (also politically important but from the opposition) of doing it.

And you know that FULL well.

former9thward

(31,801 posts)
25. Civility if it ever existed died long, long ago.
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 03:55 PM
Aug 2016

In the 1800 campaign Jefferson attacked President Adams calling him a "hideous hermaphroditical character."
Political supporters of President Adams fired back with invective of their own, accusing Jefferson of being "the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father." President Adams refused to attend Jefferson's inauguration.

In the 1828 campaign of Adams vs. Jackson, Jackson was the target of a series of political pamphlets that became known as the "Coffin Handbill." The first handbills accused Jackson of the callous execution of several U.S. Army deserters during the Creek War in 1814 and the massacre of Native Americans, including women and children. The attacks even extended to his family, with later handbills accusing Jackson and his wife of adultery and his mother of prostitution.

http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0912/attack-ads-of-our-founding-fathers.aspx#ixzz4INKQJk00

Every election, including all of modern times, have had one version or the other of this. The unchained internet and social media have only increased it ten fold.

kentuck

(110,950 posts)
26. Yes. The whole nation saw it on live TV.
Thu Aug 25, 2016, 03:56 PM
Aug 2016

Or read about it a few weeks later when they received the news...

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