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newthinking

(3,982 posts)
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:45 PM Oct 2015

Doctors Without Borders airstrike: US alters story for fourth time in four days

Source: The Guardian

Doctors Without Borders airstrike: US alters story for fourth time in four days

Commander of war in Afghanistan tells Senate panel that US forces had called in airstrike at Afghan request – ‘an admission of a war crime’ says MSF chief


US special operations forces – not their Afghan allies – called in the deadly airstrike on the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, the US commander has conceded.

Shortly before General John Campbell, the commander of the US and Nato war in Afghanistan, testified to a Senate panel, the president of Doctors Without Borders – also known as Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) – said the US and Afghanistan had made an “admission of a war crime”.

Shifting the US account of the Saturday morning airstrike for the fourth time in as many days, Campbell reiterated that Afghan forces had requested US air cover after being engaged in a “tenacious fight” to retake the northern city of Kunduz from the Taliban. But, modifying the account he gave at a press conference on Monday, Campbell said those Afghan forces had not directly communicated with the US pilots of an AC-130 gunship overhead.

“Even though the Afghans request that support, it still has to go through a rigorous US procedure to enable fires to go on the ground. We had a special operations unit that was in close vicinity that was talking to the aircraft that delivered those fires,” Campbell told the Senate armed services committee on Tuesday morning.

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/06/doctors-without-borders-airstrike-afghanistan-us-account-changes-again

39 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Doctors Without Borders airstrike: US alters story for fourth time in four days (Original Post) newthinking Oct 2015 OP
What the fuck were we thinking Alittleliberal Oct 2015 #1
What do you mean "We"? Demeter Oct 2015 #16
"Obama and his storm troopers." WTF. You sure gave yourself away there, didn't you? uhnope Oct 2015 #24
I would say so. Doesnt happen often but when it does, when they tell you what they randys1 Oct 2015 #26
There goes the last shred. nt bemildred Oct 2015 #2
Sounds like somebody wants Doctors Without Borders out of Afghanistan forest444 Oct 2015 #4
Anybody that remembers My Lai knows this shit happens all the time. bemildred Oct 2015 #5
This is why it's said that war is hell /nt al bupp Oct 2015 #9
And war is a crime, the worst crime there is. n/t cpwm17 Oct 2015 #19
ETF? oh lord when I mentioned Mai Lai in my other post I thought I was exaggerating. uhnope Oct 2015 #25
Well get used to it because you are going to see a lot of it now. nt bemildred Oct 2015 #28
great. could you expand on the CT please? uhnope Oct 2015 #29
No, I long since noticed that was a waste of time. nt bemildred Oct 2015 #30
how uncharitable of you. They are simple questions. Are you sure you can't answer them? uhnope Oct 2015 #31
Post removed Post removed Oct 2015 #35
THis sounds exactly what I read when the underthematrix Oct 2015 #3
Well, DUH! First reports are often in error. What a poor headline and writing that is. uppityperson Oct 2015 #6
Thank you! See my post #23 nt uhnope Oct 2015 #27
No one is paying attention... atreides1 Oct 2015 #7
Aren't they finding out what happened? Of course accounts will change, there's info TwilightGardener Oct 2015 #8
Here: bemildred Oct 2015 #10
And? TwilightGardener Oct 2015 #11
Yeah, I thought it would be a waste of time. nt bemildred Oct 2015 #12
Not surprised that you would jump on this, but meanwhile..... Tarheel_Dem Oct 2015 #13
Excuse me, but do you have any bodies to back that up? Demeter Oct 2015 #17
No, but I do have this ---------- >>>>>>>>>>> Tarheel_Dem Oct 2015 #22
One has nothing to do with the other Demeter Oct 2015 #32
This message was self-deleted by its author Tarheel_Dem Oct 2015 #34
As a result, we now have U.S. and Afghan officials expressly justifying the consummate war crime: de riverbendviewgal Oct 2015 #14
This is very troubling. riverbendviewgal Oct 2015 #15
30 minutes of "accident" while frantic calls to stop are sent to command posts Demeter Oct 2015 #18
"That delivered those fires"? Kelvin Mace Oct 2015 #20
This is an AC130 'delivering fires' LastLiberal in PalmSprings Oct 2015 #39
This is clearly a war crime. Maedhros Oct 2015 #21
A duet Demeter Oct 2015 #36
I call BS on the headline. Can someone w/ reading skills pls check in? Read the 4th paragraph! WTF? uhnope Oct 2015 #23
Why the fuck are we still fighting azmom Oct 2015 #33
Those stockpiles of ammunition, fuel and explosives don't empty themselves! Maedhros Oct 2015 #37
As mentioned in another article Jesus Malverde Oct 2015 #38
 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
24. "Obama and his storm troopers." WTF. You sure gave yourself away there, didn't you?
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 06:39 PM
Oct 2015

Demeter:

Did anyone ask us? Of course not. Ask Obama and his storm troopers.

randys1

(16,286 posts)
26. I would say so. Doesnt happen often but when it does, when they tell you what they
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 06:47 PM
Oct 2015

think

believe them

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
5. Anybody that remembers My Lai knows this shit happens all the time.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 03:11 PM
Oct 2015

It's not new, it's not different, and it what to expect in war. The problem is the pretense that war is something sanitary and precise and that it has anything at all to do with ethics or morality.

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
25. ETF? oh lord when I mentioned Mai Lai in my other post I thought I was exaggerating.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 06:45 PM
Oct 2015

I can't imagine what kind of deranged thinking actually thinks that US forces, in fighting the Taliban, want to intentionally bomb hospitals. I'm wondering what such a mindset thinks is the benefit for the US is to be gained from the horrible publicity and anger now coming onto the US forces due to this incident. What conspiracy theory says that MSF was somehow in such an adversarial relationship with the USA that the USA would intentionally bomb a MSF hospital, no matter what the repercussions?

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
31. how uncharitable of you. They are simple questions. Are you sure you can't answer them?
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 07:00 PM
Oct 2015

I can't imagine what kind of deranged thinking actually thinks that US forces, in fighting the Taliban, want to intentionally bomb hospitals, and I would like to know.

I'm wondering what such a mindset thinks is the benefit for the US is to be gained from the horrible publicity and anger now coming onto the US forces due to this incident. Could you shed some light on that?

What conspiracy theory says that MSF was somehow in such an adversarial relationship with the USA that the USA would intentionally bomb a MSF hospital, no matter what the repercussions?

Response to uhnope (Reply #31)

underthematrix

(5,811 posts)
3. THis sounds exactly what I read when the
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 02:51 PM
Oct 2015

first news report came out about this incident. I don't see anything in here that's different. There's an investigation that has been launched by DoD. Of course any subsequent stories are going to require some degree of reading comprehension otherwise the reader could be manipulated.

uppityperson

(115,674 posts)
6. Well, DUH! First reports are often in error. What a poor headline and writing that is.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 03:18 PM
Oct 2015
The US account has now shifted four times in four days. On Saturday, the US military said it did not know for certain that it had struck the hospital but that US forces were taking fire in Kunduz.

On Sunday, it said that the strike took place in the “vicinity” of the hospital and suggested it had been accidentally struck. On Monday, Campbell said that the Afghans requested the strike and said US forces in the area were not “threatened”.

On Tuesday, he clarified that US forces called in the airstrike themselves at Afghan request.

atreides1

(16,046 posts)
7. No one is paying attention...
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 03:23 PM
Oct 2015

...to the 500 pound gorilla in the room!

"Addressing Tuesday’s committee hearing, Campbell confirmed that he has recommended to Obama that the US retain thousands of troops in Afghanistan beyond Obama’s presidency – reversing a plan to reduce the force to one focused on protecting the US embassy in Kabul.

He argued for “strategic patience”


Campbell wants boots on the ground to continue this delusional debacle!

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
8. Aren't they finding out what happened? Of course accounts will change, there's info
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 03:27 PM
Oct 2015

coming from a number of different places: pilots, Afghanis, special forces, hospital staff, civilian eyewitnesses.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,207 posts)
13. Not surprised that you would jump on this, but meanwhile.....
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 04:21 PM
Oct 2015
Russia Rejects 'Unfounded' Accusations Of Civilian Deaths In Syria Airstrikes

By Lydia Tomkiw @lydiatomkiw L.Tomkiw@ibtimes

Reports that Russian warplanes in Syria are not targeting positions held by militants of the Islamic State group are “unfounded,” Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov reportedly said Thursday. Lavrov’s comments, made after Wednesday’s meeting with his U.S. counterpart John Kerry, came in response to fears that Moscow’s airstrikes in Syria were aimed at targets other than ISIS and had killed civilians.

“Talk began that civilians were hurt by airstrikes. We have no such data,” Lavrov reportedly said. “We carefully make sure that these target strikes are precise.”

Russia, which has long supported Syrian President Bashar Assad’s bid to remain in power in the war-torn nation, launched airstrikes in the country Wednesday -- its first overseas military engagement in nearly four decades. However, while Lavrov said that Russia was “conducting an air operation with surgical strikes on ground targets of the terrorist group ISIS,” U.S. and its allies expressed concerns that Moscow was, in fact, targeting Western-backed Syrian rebels fighting Assad.

“This is not the kind of behavior that we should expect professionally from the Russian military,” U.S. Defense Secretary Ashton Carter reportedly said during a Pentagon press conference Wednesday, adding that Moscow’s actions were “tantamount to pouring gasoline on the fire.”

Khaled Khoja, leader of the Syrian National Coalition -- the country's main opposition group -- also denounced the airstrikes, which, he said, killed 36 civilians in areas free from ISIS or al Qaeda control.


http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-rejects-unfounded-accusations-civilian-deaths-syria-airstrikes-2122321

The U.S. has owned up to it's mistake, while Russia is in full denial mode. The Kremlin and it's online propagandists are out in force to deflect from Russia's brutal and widespread attacks in Syria.
 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
17. Excuse me, but do you have any bodies to back that up?
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 04:47 PM
Oct 2015

any credible witnesses?

Until you do, (like, say, the entire organization of MSF screaming for help in real time) don't go projecting US war crimes on another.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,207 posts)
22. No, but I do have this ---------- >>>>>>>>>>>
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 05:13 PM
Oct 2015
TYT: Russia's Online Troll Army Is Huge, Hilarious & Already Everywhere



"Moscow is financing legions of pro-Russia Internet commenters. But how much do they matter?"

"Russia's campaign to shape international opinion around its invasion of Ukraine has extended to recruiting and training a new cadre of online trolls that have been deployed to spread the Kremlin's message on the comments section of top American websites.


Remember when Putin consistently denied that there were Russian troops inside Ukraine?
 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
32. One has nothing to do with the other
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 07:33 PM
Oct 2015

and as for "Russian trolls", I wouldn't worry about it. They won't make any more difference than you will.

Response to Demeter (Reply #32)

riverbendviewgal

(4,251 posts)
14. As a result, we now have U.S. and Afghan officials expressly justifying the consummate war crime: de
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 04:28 PM
Oct 2015



o now we’re into full-on justification mode: yes, we did it; yes, we did it on purpose; and we’re not sorry because we were right to do so since we think some Taliban fighters were at the hospital, perhaps even shooting at us. In response to the emergence of this justification claim, MSF expressed the exact level of revulsion appropriate (emphasis added):

“MSF is disgusted by the recent statements coming from some Afghanistan government authorities justifying the attack on its hospital in Kunduz. These statements imply that Afghan and US forces working together decided to raze to the ground a fully functioning hospital with more than 180 staff and patients inside because they claim that members of the Taliban were present.

“This amounts to an admission of a war crime. This utterly contradicts the initial attempts of the US government to minimize the attack as ‘collateral damage.’

https://theintercept.com/2015/10/05/the-radically-changing-story-of-the-u-s-airstrike-on-afghan-hospital-from-mistake-to-justification/

riverbendviewgal

(4,251 posts)
15. This is very troubling.
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 04:32 PM
Oct 2015

n particular, MSF quickly publicized numerous facts that cast serious doubt on the original U.S. claim that the strike on the hospital was just an accident. To begin with, the organization had repeatedly advised the U.S. military of the exact GPS coordinates of the hospital. They did so most recently on September 29, just five days before the strike. Beyond that, MSF personnel at the facility “frantically” called U.S. military officials during the strike to advise them that the hospital was being hit and to plead with them to stop, but the strikes continued in a “sustained” manner for 30 more minutes. Finally, MSF yesterday said this:

The hospital was repeatedly & precisely hit during each aerial raid, while the rest of the compound was left mostly untouched #Kunduz

— MSF International (@MSF) October 4, 2015

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
18. 30 minutes of "accident" while frantic calls to stop are sent to command posts
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 04:48 PM
Oct 2015

to stop in the name of all that's holy...

I am disgusted with the Obama administration and coverup.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
20. "That delivered those fires"?
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 04:58 PM
Oct 2015

Can they send someone who speaks English?

“Even though the Afghans request that support, it still has to go through a rigorous US procedure to enable fires to go on the ground. We had a special operations unit that was in close vicinity that was talking to the aircraft that delivered those fires.”

So, U.S. military aircraft carry sentient fires on board and regularly drop them off to burn down buildings? When did this start?
39. This is an AC130 'delivering fires'
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 08:58 PM
Oct 2015


The article says, "AC-130 gunships, which fly low, typically rely on a pilot visually identifying a target."

The AC130 is a lot more sophisticated than that. There is a suite of sensors (radar, infrared, laser, etc.) each of which has its own highly trained operator. These sensors let the AC130 target and fire 105mm shells with pinpoint accuracy during day or night.

This wasn't a building being hit by a single bomb -- it was a continual bombardment of death for a half hour.

Someone has got to be held accountable.
 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
23. I call BS on the headline. Can someone w/ reading skills pls check in? Read the 4th paragraph! WTF?
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 06:37 PM
Oct 2015

This doesn't "alter" the story, it's a clarifies it:

“Even though the Afghans request that support, it still has to go through a rigorous US procedure to enable fires to go on the ground. We had a special operations unit that was in close vicinity that was talking to the aircraft that delivered those fires,” Campbell told the Senate armed services committee on Tuesday morning.


He's saying of course the Afghans don't communicate directly with the plane, they communicate with US forces on the ground who then communicate with the plane.

WTF is up with the Guardian twisting this into some kind of change of story? The Guardian headline is as bad as anything Greenwald ever wrote. Oh yeah I forgot, the Guardian published all his BS twisting of factoids into sensational headlines too.

The Guardian should be ashamed for this kind of lying clickbait that simply feeds the western-hating trolls who want to turn a horrible mistake by NATO/US forces into a fucking Mai Lai massacre. The same fellow travelers who refused to ever admit that Russia made a horrible mistake and shot down a commercial airliner are now all over this horrible mistake--which the US admits was a horrible mistake--and wants to turn it into some kind of intentional bombing of a hospital at the moment they bombed it, as if it somehow helps the US in its fight against the Taliban to bomb a hospital intentionally. Whacked out deranged thinking by haters. WTF
 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
37. Those stockpiles of ammunition, fuel and explosives don't empty themselves!
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 08:13 PM
Oct 2015

Gotta' keep up the demand for more - don't you believe in the Invisible Hand?

Jesus Malverde

(10,274 posts)
38. As mentioned in another article
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 08:27 PM
Oct 2015

When we incinerate a wedding party killing dozens, the victims, are easily dismissed by the media stenographers. Dismissing the claims of MSF is going to be harder to do.

The change is who called in the strike, and claims of shooting from the hospital. Special forces on the ground, calling in AC-130 attacks is bad optics since the war is over and we're no longer there.

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