The combination of fear, media propaganda, and brain drain have left few with a will to exercise freedoms

It's probably more accurate to say that this is a popular policy in Russia.

"While the appetite for deploying troops in Syria is low, Russians are increasingly looking to such displays of military might as a substitute for their country's economic ills and ostracism in the West," Peter Zalmayev, a Russian affairs expert and director of the Eurasia Democracy Initiative in New York, told Al Jazeera

Why you did!

To quote you:
"the point is rejecting the validity of RT, FOX News, Drudge, Sputnik, CNS, etc always. If it's a "valid point" as you say, it can be found in a legit source, not one that carefully picks and chooses "valid points" and facts to place within their BS narrative, in this case one that is the state media of a huge fascist dictatorship."

Ahem. cough cough. Did you just site AL Jazeera there to make your point? To quote Rick Perry, oops!

stalker

"If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names." - Elbert Hubbard

I pretend the same when my answer would reduce my credibility. It's tough for guys like us to hold the same thing to two different standards depending on when it validates or invalidates our biases. Why can't people understand that burden we carry?

that I was quoting the OP and responding to that, not citing AJ on my own?

Since yr apparently new on DU, it's curious that you seem to be already running interference for any threads that criticize the Russian gov. You aren't a Putin supporter, are you? That certainly would run counter to the values of democracy in general and electing Democrats specifically.

What's happening in the Russian gov really sucks, don't you think? The homophobic laws, the crushing of the free press, the kleptocracy/government by mafia that throws regular businesspeople in prison for not cooperating with Kremlin-connected business offers, the skinhead brown shirts connected to the Kremlin that attack journalists, judges and dissidents, the jailing and beating of Pussy Riot, not to mention the apparent president-for-life aspect of Putin's reign. Sucks, right?

"While the appetite for deploying troops in Syria is low, Russians are increasingly looking to such displays of military might as a substitute for their country's economic ills and ostracism in the West," Peter Zalmayev, a Russian affairs expert and director of the Eurasia Democracy Initiative in New York, told Al Jazeera "

The fact that you used Al Jazeera to bolster your point is, well, indisputable.

Running interference for Russia? lol Hardly. My Ukrainian ancestors were run out of their homes by the Russians.I think my posts are more centered on deflating fear and war mongering.

Russia sucks, but I don't have selective outrage at one particular flawed state. You seem to only, well,make that overwhelmingly, just post about Russia and a little bit about China to the point where, and this is just my opinion, that your effectiveness in making valid points about those countries seems detrimentally effected.

I criticize Russia, I criticize other countries, and I especially criticize the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Don't you think that the theocratic fascist oligarchy run by a dictator that is the Kingdom (hah) of Said Arabia is even worse than Russia? I do, but feel free to vent your righteous anger at whom you choose. Personally the bit about "The homophobic laws, the crushing of the free press, the kleptocracy/government by mafia that throws regular businesspeople in prison for not cooperating" is not only true of Russia, but is doubly true of our ALLY Saudi Arabia. Throw in the oppression of women, beheading of gays and the complete suppression of every other religion and you have a country even worse than Russia. But, as I said, I am not fixated on criticizing just Russia and China.

I also post extensively on income inequality and workers rights and, honestly, seem to be getting a lot more recs over all for my postings than you have for yours. Go figure. So, I might be a new poster, but I am proud of my posting history and think it fits into the mainstream of many ideals and values shared by other people here on DU.

Oh, and since you mentioned "the skinhead brown shirts connected to the Kremlin" may I concur with you that anti-semitism is rife in Russia, but I will go further to say its an huge problem in many many of the eastern European states and is a problem that needs to be addressed. For example:

"Poland Poll Reveals Stubborn Anti-Semitism Amid Jewish Revival Hopes"
http://forward.com/news/world/191155/poland-poll-reveals-stubborn-anti-semitism-amid-je/#ixzz3owjnobSF

"Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear:_Anti-Semitism_in_Poland_after_Auschwitz

Antisemitism in contemporary Hungary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_contemporary_Hungary

Czech anti-Semitism spiked in 2014, report shows
http://www.timesofisrael.com/cazech-anti-semitism-spiked-in-2014-report-shows/

Of course, there are many more articles like this so let me stop here. Will you join me in condemning anti-semitism in these countries and the governments that turn a blind eye to it? I hope so.

If you have an issue with anything in particular I have posted or said, by all means lets discuss it. We are here to discuss topical matters and further democratic ideals. Personally, one of those ideals I think is furthering world peace, I have taken issue with the corporate media constantly fear and war mongering. I find news articles that constantly promote military "solutions" as ones that are worth commenting on and arguing against.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to present my goals and aspirations for participating in discussions here on DU.

Believe me, I'm well aware of the stuff in all your links and have been to those places and met victims (BTW though anti-Semiticism in Central Europe shows up in attitudes, you might want to focus on anti-Gypsyism as the most active ongoing human rights issue there).

I've posted about the Saudis etc. But you see, the Saudis don't have trolls on DU rushing to defend that gov and its hellscape, which is universally known. But there are Putin supporters all over the place here, and as I'm sure you know there are actual paid troll farms in Russia. I counter them. That's it. I also focus on Russia and China because of their power to spread their anti-democracies. I also counter some of the knee-jerk anti-West posts by trying to show some context.

When you play "gotcha" games like that, especially erroneously like you did with that AJ quote (quoting an OP's quote is not the same as offering it as evidence of your own), you shouldn't be surprised if you are mistaken for a Putin explainer. If you're not, that's great. Let's both do a better job at showing our concern about human rights across the board.

...Whenever I see you post, I automatically think "here comes my daily Russia Rage from Uhnope"

Yes, Putin is a dictator.

Yes, Putin oppresses others.

Yes, Putin is a murderer.

Yes, I don't like Putin.

And despite me or anyone else saying that...we get called "Putinistas".

Far as I'm concerned, you don't hate Putin. You hate Russians, period. I can't call it either way, if a thousand Russians died in Syria, I think you would rejoice.

I've come to the conclusion, this isn't about Putin after watching your posts, statements, etc. Its something darker..and it fuels your "Russia Rage".

Maybe you're projecting. Maybe you feel this way about some race or ethnicity or nationality, that you want them to die for the way or place they were born, but I don't. I have Russian friends in Russia and outside of Russia, I have been to Russia--have you? No, you have no reason to accuse me of this, when I clearly state to everyone that it's exactly what I don't mean or intend, ever. And BTW I have never called you a Putinista, have rarely interacted you, and when I did it was very polite, so maybe you are confusing me with someone else. But that would be a pretty appalling thing to accuse anyone of.

Really, let's only hope you can feel ashamed for posting such a thing.

Self-delete and look in the mirror.

Last edited Mon Oct 19, 2015, 08:24 AM - Edit history (1)

When the OP posted this:
"Only 150 people have turned up at a demonstration against Russian military involvement in the Syrian war that was sanctioned to gather 300 protesters in Moscow."

You responded with this, in my opinion, over-the-top slanderous broad-brushed comment about virtually ALL Russians:
"surprised they got that many. The combination of fear, media propaganda, and brain drain have left few with a will to exercise freedoms"

Wow, just wow. So in a nation of 143.5 million people they are virtually all cowards, stupid dupes fooled by the medai, or people that have fled from their country. Nice. I took issue with this statement repeatedly with you in this thread and YOU accused ME of "diluting the point". Well, the point of the OP was that just 150 people showed up for a rally opposing Russia's current actions in Syria. The only "point being diluted" was , in my opinion, your slanderous comment about an entire nation. Don't you think you did go way over the top and that ,since your are asking a person to self-delete one of their posts, that you should self-delete your own broad-brushed post? I do. Rhetorical flourishes are one thing in a discussion, but you simply went too far and made your self look bad.

Last edited Mon Oct 19, 2015, 06:49 PM - Edit history (1)

you've already said you think that a post's truth & validity is measured by its popularity, by how many "recs" it gets. I don't think you can even understand what's wrong with that.

Then you wrote the pathetic line, "Please don't disrespect my emotional response". Read this: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

Now you're defending the gross thought-crime accusation that "if a thousand Russians died in Syria, I think you would rejoice." You probably can't even understand what's wrong with that, either. You think I made myself look bad, but you think this kind of language, tactic, and intention looks good--and you will gladly run with it.

I give up. Have fun!

1. Your reaction says it all.

2. Look at my screen name a bit harder if the claims you made are true.

ok...three things.

3. The UAW person's post after yours...well...is pretty spot on.

I don't post or interact much on here as you referenced. And yes, our last quick discussion was "polite" because I was polite and direct, but you with many others...not so much. So feel free to "alert" and have your friends hide the post and this one to if it satisfies you. But it doesn't change the reality.

You say my reaction says it all. So my denial of your horrific accusation, which you didn't even answer, "says it all". The smug delusion of that is fascinatingly psycho, really. Like some Kafkaesque reverse-McCarthyism: You accuse me a thought crime, and then my aghast denial of your accusations equals, to you, proof--but you don't have to explain how.

This is incoherent, BTW:

No idea what you are trying to say. Apparently English is not your first language, which is fine, but maybe you should try again. In fact, if you're trying to hint that you're Russian, why not just say so? Why hide it?

But one thing I do know: Your defense of the Nuland coup conspiracy theory in the other threads shows you have serious issues, some huge chip on your shoulder about Ukraine, some deep hatred. You might be anti-Putin but you're obviously still a Russia chauvinist, a bigot.

So I will use your own tactic: I think you rejoice when you hear of thousands of Ukrainians being murdered by the Russian military.

And no matter what you reply, "It doesn't change the reality." See how that works?

Now, please, lie back on the couch and tell us more about the terrible things you know that others are thinking.

It doesn't bother me. Because I know it isn't true...and I don't respond. And no one else will believe either because I don't post anti-Ukraine threads, comments, etc. day in and day out (as you do about Russia). Oh and my manager is Ukrainian..and we get along quite well by the way.

Now we will both vote "D" come November of next year (assuming you are a Democrat...and not a paid shill as you like to accuse of others). But I don't have trust in the CIA and I don't believe any administration that gets voted in has full control of that agency (although I will say Repub's seem to like what they do)....wife's side of the family fled Persia when the "popular uprising" installed the Shah in full control. On my side of the family, lets just say its ironic (like with my wife's family) we ended up here due to "world events".

I can tell you are a very angry individual...and I'm not going to waste my time. We're done.

As for Nunland, whatever dude. I won't play the naive card. Ukraine was a corrupt nation....and still is. And its not looking much better. And still easily manipulated by competing powers. When this fiasco started, I was upset at the loss of life I knew was going to come.

The only reason there is a fight between east and west over there is, well, I'll just quote a line from a movie called Blood Diamond:

"I hope they don't find oil here as well!"

"The combination of fear, media propaganda, and brain drain have left few with a will to exercise freedoms"

I thought you were talking about Ferguson, Missouri -- my bad.

are you joking? You're saying educated and successful people are fleeing the USA like they are fleeing Putin's Russia? You're comparing the variety of US media to the mostly state-owned and controlled media in Putin's Russia? You really think Americans are afraid to protest, and that also compares to Russia?

The way you use Ferguson would almost make someone think you're thrilled about being able to do so, but I know that can't be true.

There is a long history in our country of black Americans fleeing more oppressive regions of it to seek a better life for themselves and their families. Don't you know this?

Enlighten yourself:

"The Great Migration was the movement of 6 million African Americans out of the rural Southern United States to the urban Northeast, Midwest, and West that occurred between 1910 and 1970. Some historians differentiate between the first Great Migration (1910–1930), numbering about 1.6 million migrants who left mostly rural areas to migrate to northern industrial cities; and, after a lull during the Great Depression, a Second Great Migration (1940–1970), in which 5 million or more people moved from the South, including many to California and other western states.[1] Between 1910 and 1970, blacks moved from 14 states of the South, especially Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas, to the other three cultural (and census-designated) regions of the United States. According to US census figures, Georgia was the only Deep South state which suffered net declines in its African-American population for three consecutive decades from 1920–1950. More townspeople with urban skills moved during the second migration.[1]

By the end of the Second Great Migration, African Americans had become an urbanized population. More than 80 percent of blacks lived in cities. A majority of 53 percent remained in the South, while 40 percent lived in the North, and 7 percent in the West.[2]

According to Nicholas Lemann, the Great Migration was one of the largest and most rapid mass internal movements in history—perhaps the greatest not caused by the immediate threat of execution or starvation. In sheer numbers it outranks the migration of any other ethnic group—Italians or Irish or Jews or Poles—to [the U.S.]. For blacks, the migration meant leaving what had always been their economic and social base in America, and finding a new one.[3]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migration_(African_American)


"CONTEXT AND CAUSES OF THE GREAT MIGRATION
After the post-Civil War Reconstruction period ended in 1876, white supremacy was largely restored across the South, and the segregationist policies known as Jim Crow soon became the law of the land. Southern blacks were forced to make their living working the land as part of the sharecropping system, which offered little in the way of economic opportunity, especially after a boll weevil epidemic in 1898 caused massive crop damage across the South. And while the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) had been officially dissolved in 1869, it continued underground after that, and intimidation, violence and even lynching of black southerners were not uncommon practices in the Jim Crow South."

http://www.history.com/topics/black-history/great-migration

-------------
As for the unbelievably bad images of militarized policing that came out of Furguson, Missouri, I do feel it is important not to sweep them under the rug. They should be presented over and over again to sear them into the consciousness of complacent Americans that think racism is over in our country.

I am sorry if these pictures upset you, but this is not Stalinist Russia, we don't erase inconvenient history here in the US. At least we should not condone doing so.

Internal movement of populations vs people fleeing a country. C'mon. Be serious.

& at some point you should get ashamed of posting Ferguson photos on a thread about Russia. Really, have a little dignity.

You saying "The combination of fear, media propaganda, and brain drain have left few with a will to exercise freedoms" made me think of Ferguson, Missouri. The oppression, the militarized police, the slanted corporate media coverage of groups like Black Lives Matter -- it all resonated in my mind after reading your words. Sorry.

Obviously, this does not resonate this way for you, I respect that. Please don't disrespect my emotional response to racial injustice. Surely you can understand my viewpoint just a little? I mean, hell, just watching what happened in Ferguson on CNN turned my stomach.

Yeah, I know, you hate Russia -- and for good reasons. Ok. Got it. Please actually read what i wrote and try to see why your words could possibly lead me to think of similar, not the same, not duplicates, just similar injustices that are happening here at home. Thanks.

C'mon--by that argument, everything that gives us an "emotional response" is far game to post on any thread that in any way might cause an emotional response. You must consider the effect, which is to say, in effect: sure Russia is bad but Ferguson happened so criticism of Russia is invalid. I'm sure you can see how that is no argument or point at all. Anybody could point to anything bad anywhere and say Yeah but that's nothing compared to this!

btw I don't hate Russia, but I despise what's being done by Putin's gov to wreck that country

"You must consider the effect, which is to say, in effect: sure Russia is bad but Ferguson happened so criticism of Russia is invalid"

That's your spin on it. So, any comments in a thread related to oppression, say in Russia for example, that is not about that country is DEFENDING OPPRESSION? Oh please.

I past your litmus test already, Russia sucks. But, honestly, who are you to be the one making people take litmus tests and impugning their motives?

and some (not you) do distract & hijack in order to run interference for the oppressor of their choice.

What I said is not radical, it's basic posting netiquette. But whatevs I think we are done here, either you take my point or you don't

Well, the point of the OP was that just 150 people showed up for a rally opposing Russia's current actions in Syria. The only "point being diluted" was , in my opinion, your slanderous comment about an entire nation.

Pardon me for repeating myself here, but it's needed for clarity:
======
When the OP posted this:
"Only 150 people have turned up at a demonstration against Russian military involvement in the Syrian war that was sanctioned to gather 300 protesters in Moscow."

You responded with this, in my opinion, over-the-top slanderous broad-brushed comment about virtually ALL Russians:
"surprised they got that many. The combination of fear, media propaganda, and brain drain have left few with a will to exercise freedoms"

Wow, just wow. So in a nation of 143.5 million people they are virtually all cowards, stupid dupes fooled by the medai, or people that have fled from their country. Nice.
======

Well, I am done with this conversation, I have tried to make my points politely and to respect your opinions.

Personally, I feel your posting style in this thread exhibited some very poor characteristics.

You essentially demanded that I take a litmus test about how much I oppose Russia's policies.

You opened with a sweeping statement slandering an entire nation just because their actions did not meet your desire for them to oppose a particular policy in Syria.

You also used rhetorical techniques that tried to put words in other people's mouths saying things like like "You're saying educated and successful people are fleeing the USA like they are fleeing Putin's Russia? You're comparing the variety of US media to the mostly state-owned and controlled media in Putin's Russia? You really think Americans are afraid to protest, and that also compares to Russia?"

Wow, just wow. In any case, thank you for the discussion and for demonstrating what is, sadly, your all too typical posting style.

Interesting table on Human Right's Abusers, its from 2011 but still --- wtf?

http://www.theguardian.com/Tables/4_col_tables/0,,258330,00.html

The top 100 offenders
This table ranks human rights abusers in descending order; the figures in the right-hand column are obtained by multipying a weighted score of abuses by the Human Development Index.
(For the second half of the table follow the link at the bottom of the screen)



COUNTRY POP HDI GDP TOTAL x HDI

Yugoslavia (Federal Republic) 10.4 0.86 24.94
North Korea 23.2 0.765 20.66
Indonesia 206.5 0.681 214,995 20.09
Algeria 30.2 0.665 47,072 19.95
Libya 6.0 0.756 18.14
Colombia 37.7 0.768 95,745 16.90
Egypt 65.7 0.616 75,605 15.40
Israel 5.9 0.883 98,081 15.01
China 1255.1 0.701 901,981 14.72
Iran 73.1 0.715 89,979 14.66
Congo (Democratic Republic) 49.2 0.479 6,101 14.37
Sudan 28.5 0.475 10,224 14.25
Iraq 21.8 0.586 14.06
Burma 47.6 0.58 13.92
Turkey 63.8 0.728 189,878 13.47
Mexico 95.8 0.786 402,963 13.36
Congo (Republic) 2.8 0.533 2,298 12.79
Venezuela 23.2 0.792 87,480 12.67
Syria 15.3 0.663 17,899 12.60
Saudi Arabia 20.2 0.74 140,374 12.58
Rwanda 6.5 0.379 1,863 12.51
Pakistan 147.8 0.508 61,667 12.45
Bahrain 0.832 11.65
Sri Lanka 18.5 0.721 15,093 11.54
Philippines 72.2 0.74 82,157 11.10
Peru 24.8 0.739 63,849 11.09
South Korea 46.1 0.852 442,543 11.08
India 975.8 0.545 381,566 10.90
Cambodia 10.8 0.514 3,044 10.79
Cameroon 14.3 0.536 9,115 10.72
Nepal 23.2 0.463 4,929 10.65
Yemen 16.9 0.449 5,656 10.55
Brazil 165.2 0.739 820,381 10.35
Burundi 6.6 0.324 957 10.04
Cuba 11.1 0.765 9.95
Morocco 28.0 0.582 33,514 9.31
United States Of America 273.8 0.927 7,834,036 9.27
Uganda 21.3 0.404 6,582 8.89
Angola 12.0 0.398 7,662 8.76
Uzbekistan 24.1 0.72 25,047 8.64
Russian Republic 147.2 0.747 446,982 8.59
Croatia 4.5 0.773 19,081 8.50
Togo 4.4 0.469 1,475 8.44
Tunisia 9.5 0.695 18,937 8.34
Chad 6.9 0.393 1,603 8.25
Lebanon 3.2 0.749 14,962 8.24
Lesotho 2.2 0.582 950 8.15
Senegal 9.0 0.426 4,542 8.09
Nicaragua 4.5 0.616 1,971 8.01
Jordan 6.0 0.715 7,015 7.87

-------------------

Huh, that's an ordering that I would not have expected, even in 2011. Who's lying to us?

The tip off would be that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (which ceased to exist in 2003) is listed first.

Well, obvious to you, I got fooled by the copyright date for the web page at the guardian.uk!

So, based on your noticing the FYR is listed first, the actually data had to be for sometime between 1992 and 2003.
Thanks for pointing this out.

I am definitely thinking it is from the Milosevic era.

hoisted on your own petard, as they say.

stalker. lol But of course I am being humorous.

Look at the actually page link and you will see there is no "link" to the table there, its embedded. HAH! Gotcha, AGAIN. lol
Again, I am joking. Mostly. lol

Scores of Russians took to the streets in capital Moscow on Saturday to protest the government's intervention in Syria.

Nearly 200 people took part in the protest in the Suvorov Square, chanting slogans against Russian President Vladimir Putin and Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

The group shouted, "This war is a shame on Russia", "If you want to start a war, declare it against corruption", "Hell is waiting for those who love to bomb for peace".

http://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2015/10/17/scores-of-russians-protest-against-putins-involvement-in-syria

Well said.

67 percent backed Russian “political and diplomatic support” for Assad’s government. 69 percent either firmly opposed or probably opposed deploying troops to help the Syrian leadership,

43 percent support providing Damascus with weapons and military consultation — as Moscow has been doing throughout a more than four-year conflict that has killed some 250,000 people — while 41 percent oppose it.

Many Russians remain mindful of the losses suffered by the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, where some 15,000 of its troops were killed during a war of occupation in 1979-89, and are wary of sending soldiers abroad. Putin denies Russia has sent troops to fight in the conflict in eastern Ukraine, despite what Kyiv and NATO say is overwhelming evidence.

The Levada poll said that 69 percent either firmly oppose or probably oppose deploying troops to help the Syrian leadership, while 67 percent back Russian “political and diplomatic support” for Assad’s government.

It said that 43 percent support providing Damascus with weapons and military consultation — as Moscow has been doing throughout a more than four-year conflict that has killed some 250,000 people — while 41 percent oppose it.

... those respondents who are aware of recent developments in Syria, 36 percent said their sympathies were with Assad’s government while 10 percent said they sympathized with the opposition and a plurality — 39 percent — said they favored neither side.

http://www.juancole.com/2015/09/russians-oppose-sending.html

As long as Putin relies on Iran and Hezbollah to provide the ground troops, he will probably have the support of the Russian people if they just provide air support and military supplies to the Syrian government.

No one is anonymous online in Russia.

In public, any protests against Putins government can mean a persons death.

At the minimum one can land in prison, have their lives/business ruined or end up attacked by 'thugs' in public like these woman.